Brooklyn Bus Redesign Discussion Thread

[Armandito]

On 1/14/2022 at 5:38 PM, JeremiahC99 said:

As someone who has commuted through the area, I will agree that the area as a whole is congested. However, I'm not convinced on the routing you proposed, since it bypasses the college and Midwood High, which sees a considerable number of people using the B6, including students. If anything, I recommend that bus lanes be added on Flatbush Avenue through the area (from Farragut Road to Avenue I), and have the B6 and B11 routes use those bus lanes from Glenwood Road to Avenue H, where the B6 would continue on Avenue H to the normal route. This could benefit other bus lines as well, such as the B41 and B103.

Going back to this, here's what I revised: https://imgur.com/a/xWriL1i

I also made an alternative proposal that keeps the current B15 routing along Marcus Garvey Blvd/Lewis Av but with a proposed southbound bus lane along the former: https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1kVmJwPSonO4VgTW6LKJ-fwUDamqOBXl7&ll=40.644603496581034%2C-73.91131499999999&z=11

 

[JeremiahC99]

19 minutes ago, Armandito said:

Going back to this, here's what I revised: https://imgur.com/a/xWriL1i

I also made an alternative proposal that keeps the current B15 routing along Marcus Garvey Blvd/Lewis Av but with a proposed southbound bus lane along the former: https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1kVmJwPSonO4VgTW6LKJ-fwUDamqOBXl7&ll=40.644603496581034%2C-73.91131499999999&z=11

 

 

It looks good, though I do have some reservations about having the B81 operate along Flatlands Avenue alongside the B6 and B82. I was thinking why that route was routed along Avenue H and Flatlands Avenue between Utica Avenue and East 105th Street rather than along Foster Avenue, which currently sees no bus service, is mostly a considerable distance from other east-west bus corridors, and has seen some new development in recent years. Particularly, the opening of Canarsie Plaza right by Brooklyn Terminal Market. Both are serviced by one north-south bus route and no east-west bus route. It would do wonders to have an east-west bus route to serve the areas.

The route could make 11 stops between, and including Utica Avenue and East 105th Street, such as East 53rd Street, East 57th Street, Ralph Avenue, East 83rd Street, East 87th Street, Remsen Avenue, East 93rd Street, Rockaway Pkwy, and East 101st Street, and it can attract some new riders as well.

[Armandito]

52 minutes ago, JeremiahC99 said:

It looks good, though I do have some reservations about having the B81 operate along Flatlands Avenue alongside the B6 and B82. I was thinking why that route was routed along Avenue H and Flatlands Avenue between Utica Avenue and East 105th Street rather than along Foster Avenue, which currently sees no bus service, is mostly a considerable distance from other east-west bus corridors, and has seen some new development in recent years. Particularly, the opening of Canarsie Plaza right by Brooklyn Terminal Market. Both are serviced by one north-south bus route and no east-west bus route. It would do wonders to have an east-west bus route to serve the areas.

The route could make 11 stops between, and including Utica Avenue and East 105th Street, such as East 53rd Street, East 57th Street, Ralph Avenue, East 83rd Street, East 87th Street, Remsen Avenue, East 93rd Street, Rockaway Pkwy, and East 101st Street, and it can attract some new riders as well.

I routed it along Flatlands and Av H so it could directly serve the Canarsie hub at the terminal and also because Flatlands already has a bus lane--something Foster Av is currently lacking. While I do agree with your proposal there, it would mean a more indirect route to the terminal in exchange.

[B35 via Church]

In conjunction with how hard the MTA was pushing/forcing SBS onto riders (and how they purposely worsened complementary local service to justify increased usage on said SBS'), not only do I have no qualms about the introduction of OMNY, I'm honestly laughing at how OMNY is set to render SBS null & void.... See, when the MTA came out with LTD service, that should've been around the time they were pumping out SBS... The first SBS route was introduced in 2008 [Bx12] & the last one was introduced in 2019 [M14 variants].... Basically what I'm getting at is that the MTA is always a day late & a dollar short when it comes to technological advancements.... You can only harp on that *our system is 24/7* bit but for so long...

[R10 2952]

What I don't understand is why proof-of-payment with multi-door boarding has taken so long to implement in North America (especially in cities that are bus-only, without subways).

Most of Europe started proof-of-payment in the 1950s and 1960s; people would buy paper tickets at a booth or something, board the bus, validate the ticket in a stamping machine onboard, and roaming transit inspectors would get on and off at various stops to conduct random ticket checks- and all this was done without any computers or gadgetry.  Was the norm on many systems out there until the 1990s and 2000s, before they switched from paper tickets to electronic.

Why its taken the Western Hemisphere forever to warm up to this basic concept, is beyond me.  Imagine all the minutes that would taken off boarding times at busy bus stops like in East Midtown or Brooklyn Heights.

Edited January 16, 2022 by R10 2952

[B35 via Church]

12 minutes ago, R10 2952 said:

What I don't understand is why proof-of-payment with multi-door boarding has taken so long to implement in North America (especially in cities that are bus-only, without subways).

Most of Europe started proof-of-payment in the 1950s and 1960s; people would buy paper tickets at a booth or something, board the bus, validate the ticket in a stamping machine onboard, and roaming transit inspectors would get on and off at various stops to conduct random ticket checks- and all this was done without any computers or gadgetry.  Was the norm on many systems out there until the 1990s and 2000s, before they switched from paper tickets to electronic.

Why its taken the Western Hemisphere forever to warm up to this basic concept, is beyond me.  Imagine all the minutes that would taken off boarding times at busy bus stops like in East Midtown or Brooklyn Heights.

Some would argue car dependence, but it's really car-centrism.... Any type of enhancements to buses are often seen as threats to motorists in this country...

Edited January 16, 2022 by B35 via Church

[Armandito]

21 hours ago, JeremiahC99 said:

It looks good, though I do have some reservations about having the B81 operate along Flatlands Avenue alongside the B6 and B82. I was thinking why that route was routed along Avenue H and Flatlands Avenue between Utica Avenue and East 105th Street rather than along Foster Avenue, which currently sees no bus service, is mostly a considerable distance from other east-west bus corridors, and has seen some new development in recent years. Particularly, the opening of Canarsie Plaza right by Brooklyn Terminal Market. Both are serviced by one north-south bus route and no east-west bus route. It would do wonders to have an east-west bus route to serve the areas.

The route could make 11 stops between, and including Utica Avenue and East 105th Street, such as East 53rd Street, East 57th Street, Ralph Avenue, East 83rd Street, East 87th Street, Remsen Avenue, East 93rd Street, Rockaway Pkwy, and East 101st Street, and it can attract some new riders as well.

My proposed routings for the B80 LTD (purple) and B81 LTD (orange): 

Note that the following two stops have been added to the B81 LTD route:

• On Av D at E 39/40 Sts to serve Albany Av
• On Av D at E 56/57 Sts to serve Nazareth Regional High School

The following cross streets/subway stations are served by both routes:

• Newkirk Plaza
• Flatbush/Bedford Avs
• Rockaway Pkwy
• E 105 St

Edited January 16, 2022 by Armandito

[Lawrence St]

3 hours ago, Armandito said:

My proposed routings for the B80 LTD (purple) and B81 LTD (orange): 

Note that the following two stops have been added to the B81 LTD route:

• On Av D at E 39/40 Sts to serve Albany Av
• On Av D at E 56/57 Sts to serve Nazareth Regional High School

The following cross streets/subway stations are served by both routes:

• Newkirk Plaza
• Flatbush/Bedford Avs
• Rockaway Pkwy
• E 105 St

This is literally my idea of the extended B35 to Belt Pkwy.

[Lawrence St]

3 hours ago, R10 2952 said:

What I don't understand is why proof-of-payment with multi-door boarding has taken so long to implement in North America (especially in cities that are bus-only, without subways).

Most of Europe started proof-of-payment in the 1950s and 1960s; people would buy paper tickets at a booth or something, board the bus, validate the ticket in a stamping machine onboard, and roaming transit inspectors would get on and off at various stops to conduct random ticket checks- and all this was done without any computers or gadgetry.  Was the norm on many systems out there until the 1990s and 2000s, before they switched from paper tickets to electronic.

Why its taken the Western Hemisphere forever to warm up to this basic concept, is beyond me.  Imagine all the minutes that would taken off boarding times at busy bus stops like in East Midtown or Brooklyn Heights.

Fare evasion, that's why. With all these new reforms, it's impossible to combat fare evasion and making all routes all door boarding is only an invitation to do it.

[JeremiahC99]

4 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

Fare evasion, that's why. With all these new reforms, it's impossible to combat fare evasion and making all routes all door boarding is only an invitation to do it.

Can’t they just put some fare inspectors on the buses and at the bus stops, at random?

[Armandito]

10 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

This is literally my idea of the extended B35 to Belt Pkwy.

What a coincidence. But I wouldn't be so sure about extending the B35 beyond Brownsville as that route is already long enough.

[BrooklynBus]

5 hours ago, Armandito said:

What a coincidence. But I wouldn't be so sure about extending the B35 beyond Brownsville as that route is already long enough.

Did you ever see my proposals? I proposed extending only the B35s starting at McDonald Ave to JFK and giving it a different route number. That way the route doesn't become too long.

[Lex]

2 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

Did you ever see my proposals? I proposed extending only the B35s starting at McDonald Ave to JFK and giving it a different route number. That way the route doesn't become too long.

Yes, because it's the portion west of McDonald Avenue that would make it too long...

[B35 via Church]

1 hour ago, Lex said:

Yes, because it's the portion west of McDonald Avenue that would make it too long...

I will never understand this gravitation towards having B35's running to JFK.... On average, (even the) B35 LTD b/w McDonald av & E. 98th st. eats up more runtime than the B15 b/w Woodhull Hosp. & Church av... The chokepoints that the B35 has to endure are more detrimental to the route time-wise than anything the B15 experiences b/w Bed-Stuy & here in East Flatbush.... Although I still think there are too many B15 trips throughout the day that run the full route (Woodhull - JFK T5), I'd much rather have the B15 running to JFK over the B35....

14 hours ago, JeremiahC99 said:

Can’t they just put some fare inspectors on the buses and at the bus stops, at random?

The latter is literally what they're doing with SBS & Eagle Team.... There's not nearly enough manpower & worse than that, the fare beating culture (because it is a culture) that exists in this city doesn't just stop with the buses... That's the thing.... The folks that hop turnstiles & walk through emergency exit doors to avoid paying the fare in the subway, aren't going to stop doing so because of the random, sparse dissemination of Eagle Team, or even law enforcement themselves... You have to attack the issue from each front & it can't be a half-hearted attempt at doing so either....

[Armandito]

4 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

Did you ever see my proposals? I proposed extending only the B35s starting at McDonald Ave to JFK and giving it a different route number. That way the route doesn't become too long.

I did see your proposals a few times in the past. IIRC your old B19 proposal is more or less similar to my B80 proposal, albeit with some differences. While my B80 is proposed as a limited-stop route operating 24/7 between Newkirk Plaza and JFK (with 30 minute headways overnight), your B19 is a local route operating 15-20 minute headways during the day with no overnight service. Your B19 also takes a more indirect route to and from The Junction though I get that other buses are being rerouted in your proposals, too.

[N6 Limited]

1 hour ago, B35 via Church said:

The latter is literally what they're doing with SBS & Eagle Team.... There's not nearly enough manpower & worse than that, the fare beating culture (because it is a culture) that exists in this city doesn't just stop with the buses... That's the thing.... The folks that hop turnstiles & walk through emergency exit doors to avoid paying the fare in the subway, aren't going to stop doing so because of the random, sparse dissemination of Eagle Team, or even law enforcement themselves... You have to attack the issue from each front & it can't be a half-hearted attempt at doing so either....

Has the MTA reported on how fare box recovery (has or hasn't) shifted on routes that were converted to SBS?

[B35 via Church]

12 minutes ago, N6 Limited said:

Has the MTA reported on how fare box recovery (has or hasn't) shifted on routes that were converted to SBS?

Not that I know of.

I'd like to see an official report that shows that the FRR for a particular route pre-SBS vs. post-SBS remaining the same, or gotten higher post-SBS though....

[BrooklynBus]

2 hours ago, Armandito said:

I did see your proposals a few times in the past. IIRC your old B19 proposal is more or less similar to my B80 proposal, albeit with some differences. While my B80 is proposed as a limited-stop route operating 24/7 between Newkirk Plaza and JFK (with 30 minute headways overnight), your B19 is a local route operating 15-20 minute headways during the day with no overnight service. Your B19 also takes a more indirect route to and from The Junction though I get that other buses are being rerouted in your proposals, too.

Version 3.5 from over a year ago was my latest. I am assuming that is what you are referring to.  

[Armandito]

2 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

Version 3.5 from over a year ago was my latest. I am assuming that is what you are referring to.  

I'd like to see a link to Version 3.5 for future reference.

Edited January 18, 2022 by Armandito

[BrooklynBus]

17 hours ago, Armandito said:

I'd like to see a link to Version 3.5 for future reference.

https://1drv.ms/b/s!AmiYAcY6ebQngUDLhOC-BonmAg19

I also started a Facebook group for the Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign. If you use Facebook, you are welcome to join. The goal is to formulate a plan that has wide support that can be presented to the MTA as a response when they release their draft plan, which I am sure will be inferior to what others will come up with, since they are focused on eliminating service because of their preoccupation with operating costs rather than improving the network to improve accessibility.

That link is:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/632231551145285 

[Armandito]

2 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

https://1drv.ms/b/s!AmiYAcY6ebQngUDLhOC-BonmAg19

I also started a Facebook group for the Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign. If you use Facebook, you are welcome to join. The goal is to formulate a plan that has wide support that can be presented to the MTA as a response when they release their draft plan, which I am sure will be inferior to what others will come up with, since they are focused on eliminating service because of their preoccupation with operating costs rather than improving the network to improve accessibility.

That link is:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/632231551145285 

Just joined the Facebook group. Thanks

[Joel Powers]

On 1/18/2022 at 3:53 PM, Armandito said:

Just joined the Facebook group. Thanks

Under the redesign, what routes are facing elimination? 

[N6 Limited]

Brooklyn is interesting because the bus routes are already far apart, except for the Bedstuy/Crown Heights area due to the one way streets. The most they can do is straighten out some routes and remove stops.

[JeremiahC99]

31 minutes ago, N6 Limited said:

Brooklyn is interesting because the bus routes are already far apart, except for the Bedstuy/Crown Heights area due to the one way streets. The most they can do is straighten out some routes and remove stops.

Well to be fair, they can still do more than that, since there are some trips that can't be made by transit due to indirect routings, For example, you have the B2, B31, and B100 all terminate at Kings Hwy  and  forcing those who want to continue westward to transfer Meanwhile Avenue P on the  has no bus service at all, giving riders no other option but to walk, and you have bus service gaps on 65th Street. To solve all of these issues, the B2 would be extended westward along Avenue P to meet with the  train, and then operate along 65th Street to the New Utrecht Avenue station and then along Bay Ridge Avenue to Shore Road. The route would also be combined with the B100 and operate along Fillmore Avenue to Mill Basin. This will provide better crosstown connections for Marine Park riders to Bensonhurst, and Bay Ridge, and to Sunset Park via a transfer to other routes.

Concurrent with this, the B64 would be rerouted to 95th Street on the  via Cropsey Avenue, once more providing convenient access to the  train for those along the B64 route (the bus used to travel to 86th Street on said line).

To replace the B64 on 13th Avenue, a new B23 route would start at 95th Street, circle around Dyker Beach Park, and operate along 13th Avenue to connect with the B35. From there, it would operate along Cortelyou Road once more to Flatbush Avenue, and this time, rather than end at Flatbush Avenue, it would continue east on Beverley Road to the Beverley Road  station and then follow the B8 route making limited stops to Remsen Avenue, where this line would then turn southward to Canarsie Plaza. With this, the B16 would be straightened to travel on Fort Hamilton Pkwy all the way between 86th Street and McDonald Avenue. These changes improve crosstown trips, restore service on Cortelyou Road, and increase connectivity.

When you put all these pieces together, you can start to imagine how people's lives will be improved with such improved connections between bus and subway routes. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

14 hours ago, JeremiahC99 said:

Well to be fair, they can still do more than that, since there are some trips that can't be made by transit due to indirect routings, For example, you have the B2, B31, and B100 all terminate at Kings Hwy  and  forcing those who want to continue westward to transfer Meanwhile Avenue P on the  has no bus service at all, giving riders no other option but to walk, and you have bus service gaps on 65th Street.

The B2, B31 and B100 are all subway feeders and that's the purpose of the routes. The neighborhoods served by those lines function as bedroom communities, so the majority of riders are transferring to the subway. Before you go into all of these proposals, what sort of data do you have that shows that there is demand for extending bus routes like the B2, B31 and B100? 

Edited May 19, 2022 by Via Garibaldi 8