Brooklyn Bus Redesign Discussion Thread

[Around the Horn]

On May 8, 2020 at 12:11 PM, Q43LTD said:

Anybody banking on the  bringing back revisions of the B23, 40, 51, 75 or 77?

Ironically the bus that I think has the best chance of returning is the one you didn't mention: the B71. I really like the "B71+" to Lower Manhattan that Brad Lander's office proposed.

However I could also see the B57 getting cut back to Downtown Brooklyn and the B75 returning. I could see the B77 returning if they split the B61 at Ikea (in which case I would give the B61 the Navy Yard portion of the B67) 

[checkmatechamp13]

41 minutes ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

I mean, considering that they are attempting to bring back some old service patterns in the Bronx and Queens bus redesigns, I wouldn't be surprised if some old service patterns return in a modified way. 

Which old service patterns returned in The Bronx? Are you referring to the Boston Road route? (Queens I know there's a few, the Q74/75 offhand)

40 minutes ago, Around the Horn said:

Ironically the bus that I think has the best chance of returning is the one you didn't mention: the B71. I really like the "B71+" to Lower Manhattan that Brad Lander's office proposed.

However I could also see the B57 getting cut back to Downtown Brooklyn and the B75 returning. I could see the B77 returning if they split the B61 at Ikea (in which case I would give the B61 the Navy Yard portion of the B67) 

I'd personally rather have the Navy Yard covered by the B69 rerouted to WBP. 

Edited May 11, 2020 by checkmatechamp13

[Lawrence St]

8 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

Which old service patterns returned in The Bronx? Are you referring to the Boston Road route? (Queens I know there's a few, the Q74/75 offhand)

I'd personally rather have the Navy Yard covered by the B69 rerouted to WBP. 

Does the Navy Yard really have to be served tho? The B67 doesn't even stop at the popular places like Wegmans.

[Around the Horn]

1 minute ago, Lawrence St said:

Does the Navy Yard really have to be served tho? The B67 doesn't even stop at the popular places like Wegmans.

On weekdays, absolutely. Something's gotta serve the people working there in the offices, especially as they continue to expand.

[Lawrence St]

Just now, Around the Horn said:

On weekdays, absolutely. Something's gotta serve the people working there in the offices, especially as they continue to expand.

Don't get me wrong I understand that, but there need to be MORE stops in the Navy Yard, not just one stop away from anything.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

18 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

Which old service patterns returned in The Bronx? Are you referring to the Boston Road route? (Queens I know there's a few, the Q74/75 offhand)

Well that is a very old service pattern, but I was thinking about Allerton Ave service from northern Co-Op City (used to be that the Bx26 served all of Co-Op City, while the Bx25 bypassed it, now the Bx25 that is brought back makes all stops in northern Co-Op City). 

Edited May 11, 2020 by BM5 via Woodhaven

[Future ENY OP]

55 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

I'd personally rather have the Navy Yard covered by the B69 rerouted to WBP. 

I dunno how I feel about the B69 going to WBP. Not saying that the idea isn't bad @checkmatechamp13.

Personally, I'd prefer the B67 only b/c of the proximity from the Navy Yard to WBP via Kent. 

[Future ENY OP]

On 5/8/2020 at 12:11 PM, Q43LTD said:

Anybody banking on the  bringing back revisions of the B23, 40, 51, 75 or 77?

Red Hook, Park Slope to Downtown Brooklyn lines:  B75 and B77, I see a possible return.  However, revisions have to be made with the B57 and B61.

Not 100% sold on the B23. If it were to return it's usefulness could only between Flatbush/Nostrand and McDonald/Church Ave 

Also, not 100% on the B51. In today's climate that line won't do well. The construction on Worth Street is horrendous. 

Honestly, the real route I'd like to see back is the B78.    Seeing how Grand Avenue has butchered the current B47 the southern most route needs a revamp. 

[Q43LTD]

4 hours ago, Lex said:

I literally just got worried that someone would "think" to swap the B7 and B82 (the former becoming some unholy mix of the existing route and the B5, the latter reverting to a B50 that uses Avenue K instead of Flatbush Avenue to reach Flatlands Avenue).

I don't think that will happen since the B82 is select. 

3 hours ago, Around the Horn said:

Ironically the bus that I think has the best chance of returning is the one you didn't mention: the B71. I really like the "B71+" to Lower Manhattan that Brad Lander's office proposed.

However I could also see the B57 getting cut back to Downtown Brooklyn and the B75 returning. I could see the B77 returning if they split the B61 at Ikea (in which case I would give the B61 the Navy Yard portion of the B67) 

You are absolutely correct. I forgot about the B71. I think along with the B77, they were going to South Ferry back in 2008. The B57 will mostly be replaced by the QT4 (I think). So, I think it's the Downtown-Red Hook portion that may go to a revised B75. 

1 hour ago, Future ENY OP said:

Red Hook, Park Slope to Downtown Brooklyn lines:  B75 and B77, I see a possible return.  However, revisions have to be made with the B57 and B61.

Not 100% sold on the B23. If it were to return it's usefulness could only between Flatbush/Nostrand and McDonald/Church Ave   

Also, not 100% on the B51. In today's climate that line won't do well. The construction on Worth Street is horrendous. 

Honestly, the real route I'd like to see back is the B78.    Seeing how Grand Avenue has butchered the current B47 the southern most route needs a revamp. 

Would this revised B23 still use Cortelyou Rd?

[Lawrence St]

2 hours ago, Q43LTD said:

I don't think that will happen since the B82 is select. 

You are absolutely correct. I forgot about the B71. I think along with the B77, they were going to South Ferry back in 2008. The B57 will mostly be replaced by the QT4 (I think). So, I think it's the Downtown-Red Hook portion that may go to a revised B75. 

Would this revised B23 still use Cortelyou Rd?

It does not matter if a route is select or not, anything and everything will change in this redesign. Look at the Bx6SBS change in the Bronx.

[Gotham Bus Co.]

10 hours ago, Lex said:

I literally just got worried that someone would "think" to swap the B7 and B82 (the former becoming some unholy mix of the existing route and the B5, the latter reverting to a B50 that uses Avenue K instead of Flatbush Avenue to reach Flatlands Avenue).

 

What would be "unholy" about a "Kings Highway Crosstown" route?

[Q43LTD]

4 hours ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

 

What would be "unholy" about a "Kings Highway Crosstown" route?

Maybe it would be long and unreliable from Ocean Hill to Coney Island. 

[B35 via Church]

4 hours ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

What would be "unholy" about a "Kings Highway Crosstown" route?

The "rhodes".

15 hours ago, Lex said:

I literally just got worried that someone would "think" to swap the B7 and B82 (the former becoming some unholy mix of the existing route and the B5, the latter reverting to a B50 that uses Avenue K instead of Flatbush Avenue to reach Flatlands Avenue).

Streamlining service along Kings Hwy. was actually a thing on these transit boards back in the day (early-mid 2000's).... Not so much anymore.

13 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

I'd personally rather have the Navy Yard covered by the B69 rerouted to WBP. 

Ditto.... The B69 doesn't have to deal with near as much of (the headache that is) Flatbush av & simply put, the B69 has more potential to bring more riders inside the Navy Yard..... I'd argue the B67's routing is a deterrent for a lot of people...

13 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

Does the Navy Yard really have to be served tho? The B67 doesn't even stop at the popular places like Wegmans.

13 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

Don't get me wrong I understand that, but there need to be MORE stops in the Navy Yard, not just one stop away from anything.

This is conflicting; what exactly is your concern?

On one front, you're asking if the Navy Yard "really" needs to be served & OTOH, you're stating that there needs to be more stops inside there....

12 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

I dunno how I feel about the B69 going to WBP. Not saying that the idea isn't bad @checkmatechamp13.

Personally, I'd prefer the B67 only b/c of the proximity from the Navy Yard to WBP via Kent. 

You can have your preference, but what are you trying to say with that part in bold? The B67 is more proximate to the Sands gate, but the B69 is more proximate to the Clinton gate....

Overall, the B67 routing to get to the Sands gate is "bascura" (as you would say ), compared to what the B69 would need to do to access to Clinton gate...

[Future ENY OP]

1 hour ago, B35 via Church said:

You can have your preference, but what are you trying to say with that part in bold? The B67 is more proximate to the Sands gate, but the B69 is more proximate to the Clinton gate....

Overall, the B67 routing to get to the Sands gate is "bascura" (as you would say ), compared to what the B69 would need to do to access to Clinton gate...

I get those 2 sides confused all the time.  2nd line is correct @B35 via Church.

The 69 runs a straight route into the Navy yard vs the 67. But overall 67/69 running to WBP is too much. I'd leave it as is.  If one of those 2 routes were limited I'd oblige and go with the 69..

On another subject with the 69. Why was it taken off Prospect Park West and 8th Ave in the first place. I've always find back in the day when I fanned the line it would be a better alternative to the B67 running down 7th Ave.  I get that Park Slope is very bougie but not that bougie enough to warrant bus service running down Prospect Park West and 8th Avenue. The 67 should only be the 7th Avenue bus.

1 hour ago, B35 via Church said:

Streamlining service along Kings Hwy. was actually a thing on these transit boards back in the day (early-mid 2000's).... Not so much anymore.

The B7 needs to go like yesterday..  Honestly, when the B7 left Flatbush in 2001 or 2002 (Someone correct me here) the service with East New York, and Fresh Pond has been somewhat piss poor.  At least when it was at FB it ran decent. Not saying that Flatbush ran the service excellent. But personally I feel that the B7 is like a step child in the Brooklyn Division that gets tossed around between the 3 depots. I could say that with a couple of more routes within the division.

[Lawrence St]

@B35 via Church I'm stating that if they aren't going to add more stops in the Navy Yard, there is no point in continuing to serve it.

[B35 via Church]

1 hour ago, Future ENY OP said:

On another subject with the 69. Why was it taken off Prospect Park West and 8th Ave in the first place. I've always find back in the day when I fanned the line it would be a better alternative to the B67 running down 7th Ave.  I get that Park Slope is very bougie but not that bougie enough to warrant bus service running down Prospect Park West and 8th Avenue. The 67 should only be the 7th Avenue bus.

To sum it up, it was part of a scheme to preserve (overall) service along 7th av....

Instead of leaving the B69 on 8th/PPW with reduced service & reducing 7th av service on the B67, they reduced service on both [the B67 & the B69] and then shifted the B69 along 7th av.... Instead of the B67 providing all the service along 7th, it got divvied up into the B67 & B69 - an attempt at mimicking B67 service along 7th as if it were left alone....

Another way of looking at it, is that they cut service on the B67 to spare Vanderbilt av service....

1 hour ago, Future ENY OP said:

The B7 needs to go like yesterday..  Honestly, when the B7 left Flatbush in 2001 or 2002 (Someone correct me here) the service with East New York, and Fresh Pond has been somewhat piss poor.  At least when it was at FB it ran decent. Not saying that Flatbush ran the service excellent. But personally I feel that the B7 is like a step child in the Brooklyn Division that gets tossed around between the 3 depots. I could say that with a couple of more routes within the division.

Hell, I'd just take the upper portion of the thing & divert it down Remsen, to have it take on the B17 Paerdegat branch.....

26 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

@B35 via Church I'm stating that if they aren't going to add more stops in the Navy Yard, there is no point in continuing to serve it.

Don't agree.... The problem isn't that the Navy Yard's being served, its that it's inadequately being served.... In saying that, I'm not necessarily/solely talking about the lack of bus stops either... I'd argue the choice of route serving it & quite frankly, how it's being served, plays a part in it also....

Edited May 11, 2020 by B35 via Church

[Around the Horn]

2 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

The B7 needs to go like yesterday..  Honestly, when the B7 left Flatbush in 2001 or 2002 (Someone correct me here) the service with East New York, and Fresh Pond has been somewhat piss poor.  At least when it was at FB it ran decent. Not saying that Flatbush ran the service excellent. But personally I feel that the B7 is like a step child in the Brooklyn Division that gets tossed around between the 3 depots. I could say that with a couple of more routes within the division.

I rode 7510 on the B7 back when Fresh Pond's XD40s were brand new and that is hands down one of the worst routes I have ever been on.

[Jdog14]

43 minutes ago, Around the Horn said:

I rode 7510 on the B7 back when Fresh Pond's XD40s were brand new and that is hands down one of the worst routes I have ever been on.

 

But serves as an alternative to the B8 cause the B8 is also piss poor. If MTA would run the routes in the area with some consistency it wouldn't be so bad. 

Edited May 11, 2020 by Jdog14

[B35 via Church]

48 minutes ago, Around the Horn said:

I rode 7510 on the B7 back when Fresh Pond's XD40s were brand new and that is hands down one of the worst routes I have ever been on.

Lol.... Where did you ride it between?

[checkmatechamp13]

19 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

I dunno how I feel about the B69 going to WBP. Not saying that the idea isn't bad @checkmatechamp13.

Personally, I'd prefer the B67 only b/c of the proximity from the Navy Yard to WBP via Kent. 

 

4 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

I get those 2 sides confused all the time.  2nd line is correct @B35 via Church.

The 69 runs a straight route into the Navy yard vs the 67. But overall 67/69 running to WBP is too much. I'd leave it as is.  If one of those 2 routes were limited I'd oblige and go with the 69..

On another subject with the 69. Why was it taken off Prospect Park West and 8th Ave in the first place. I've always find back in the day when I fanned the line it would be a better alternative to the B67 running down 7th Ave.  I get that Park Slope is very bougie but not that bougie enough to warrant bus service running down Prospect Park West and 8th Avenue. The 67 should only be the 7th Avenue bus.

Just to be clear, I don't believe the B67 should be serving the Navy Yard at all. It should end in Downtown Brooklyn and call it a day. That is the reason I'd have the B69 run to WBP: Let the B67 cover the Downtown Brooklyn riders and the B69 cover Williamsburg riders instead of both going to Downtown Brooklyn.

As for the B69 that was done in 2010 as an alternative to eliminating the route completely (weekend service was proposed for elimination in 2009, actually eliminated in 2010, and restored in 2013). As mentioned you can think of it as eliminating the B69 and having alternate B67 buses running up Vanderbilt Avenue.

@Q43LTD We don't necessarily know if there will be a local counterpart to the QT4 on Flushing Avenue or how it will be routed. But I do agree that it is unlikely that counterpart would run from Maspeth to Red Hook. I can picture them merging the B57 & B62 somehow to create that local counterpart to the QT4.

Edited May 11, 2020 by checkmatechamp13

[Around the Horn]

1 hour ago, B35 via Church said:

Lol.... Where did you ride it between?

I took it from the at Fulton Street to the at Kings Highway (where I got the B82 to the B64 home)

[Q43LTD]

7 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

The B7 needs to go like yesterday..  Honestly, when the B7 left Flatbush in 2001 or 2002 (Someone correct me here) the service with East New York, and Fresh Pond has been somewhat piss poor.  At least when it was at FB it ran decent. Not saying that Flatbush ran the service excellent. But personally I feel that the B7 is like a step child in the Brooklyn Division that gets tossed around between the 3 depots. I could say that with a couple of more routes within the division.

I believe it was 2002 the B7 went from Flatbush to ENY. I'm just still face palming at it going to FP.

[Gotham Bus Co.]

11 hours ago, Q43LTD said:

Maybe it would be long and unreliable from Ocean Hill to Coney Island. 

Yes, it would be unreliable, but what specifically would make it "unholy"?

[EastFlatbushLarry]

1 hour ago, Q43LTD said:

I believe it was 2002 the B7 went from Flatbush to ENY. I'm just still face palming at it going to FP.

if I'm not mistaken, the B7, B8 & B78 all went to East NY in January 1998. i know this because service on the 78 got exponentially better with this shift from FB. plus, the 78 was my line for getting to Roy Mann JHS. by 2000, the 78 went back to flatbush before the merge with the B40 (and actually was better served the second time around... again, before being merged)

service still sucked on the 7. i can't speak on how well or bad the 8 was at East NY.

to someone's point saying that the B7 was/is the step child of Brooklyn Division... well, i know for many years both the B7 & B78 (then later on, the B47) all were the step children of Flatbush Depot at least. Flatbush had no choice but to consider the B7/78/47 last. you have to remember... service priority was to the B41 B44 & B46 over anything. all those lines pushed out over 100 runs in Flatbush's heyday. not to mention that the B2, B31 & B49 were rush-hour heavy hitters as well.

 

[Lex]

2 hours ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

Yes, it would be unreliable, but what specifically would make it "unholy"?

You'd have two distinct ends with middling ridership and a midsection (partially paired with a separate route) that has no real draw. Said midsection is good for swinging down and across, but not many use it for that in the first place. Oh, and there would need to be an adequate number of buses for the entire route, but the somewhat stronger B5 needs more buses than much of the existing B7, meaning short-turns would need to be implemented, at which point you'd be better off changing nothing. (I seriously doubt any of the depots would be able/willing to do that, anyway.)

At least the B5 being connected to the B50 makes it easier for people to reach Canarsie without needing to touch the B6, with the somewhat better transfer opportunities being a nice bonus.