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Brooklyn Bus Redesign Discussion Thread


Cait Sith

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14 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

Regarding sabotaging local service, if the schedule shows to much limiteds relative to local service, then the answer is yes. I think a more likely reason is that the buses are just not running on schedule. 
 

People don’t realize how much bunching there is. My friend who uses the Q101 showed me once that bus time showed six buses on the line. They were running in two clumps of three buses each. The MTA has to pay more attention to situations like that, rather than being obsessed with removing bus stops.
 

There is no doubt that some bus stops need consolidation, but it has to be done correctly. It is not enough to just consider the space between bus stops. You have to see where the parallel routes are, if there are any. If there are nearby parallel routes, there should be no problem in changing two block spacing to three blocks, accounting for major uses like schools, hospitals, etc. If there are no parallel routes, like on Northern Boulevard, the stops need to be every two blocks to keep the walking distance to the bus reasonable. Buses stopping every for blocks on Northern have increased the walk for some to 3/4 of a mile which is unreasonable. Just check Google maps and you can figure out maximum walks for yourself. 
 

Spacing between routes is one reason why bus stop spacing varies. Another is through accidents of history. Bus stops have not been looked at in over 50 years. It is long overdue, just as changing routes are. Some stops are too close just because routes have changed. For example, prior to 1978, the B49 ran straight on Ocean Avenue before I diverted it to serve Sheepshead Bay Station. It now runs on an Avenue Z. The B36 stopped at Avenue Z and E 19 Street, so they had the B49 stop there too. The old B49 stopped at the far side of Avenue Z on Ocean. So now when the B49 turns from Avenue Z to Ocean, it stops on the far side of E 19th and again about 100 feet later on Ocean Avenue after it makes the turn. Only the B36 should stop at E19 St. It is not necessary for the B49 to make both stops. 
 

I will give you another example. There is a stop at E 16 and Emmons westbound for the B4 and B49. The B49 stops again after it makes the turn onto Shore Road. When there were only bus stop signs with no route numbers indicated back in the 1960s, the B49 always skipped the stop at E 16. It was only for the B36 which stopped there at that time because the B49 would have to shift to the left to make the turn. When they added route numbers for the stops, someone looked at a map and wrongly assumed the B49 stopped there and signed it for both buses. So now the bus had to stop there. And since no one ever decided to correct that mistake, it has now been stopping there and shifting to the left to make a turn for over fifty years. 
 

Who knows how many similar situations there are like that in the city. So it is actually good the MTA is taking the opportunity to review all bus stops. But as I explained in the petition, they are not doing it correctly and removing far too many bus stops. About five percent need to be relocated or moved, not 33 percent. 
 

As I stated before, when I was Director of Planning, I moved two bus stops. I eliminated a B49 bus stop that was 200 feet from another one. Originally one stop was for the old B1 that ran to Sheepshead Bay and the other was the old B49 terminus on Emmons Avenue. In 1969 when the B49 was extended to Manhattan Beach it stopped at both stops until I removed the old terminal stop in 1981. No one complained and residents were grateful for six additional parking spaces which were again removed when it became a stop for the BM3. The other stop I moved was the B1 from Brighton 7 to Coney Island Avenue. I saw a notice that a new escalator was opening at Coney Island Avenue in five days. Why should someone walk a block from the bus stop to the escalator, I reasoned. So I promptly sent a letter to DOT asking they move the bus stop. The new stop was in place the first day of escalator operation. Had I not done that in 1981, most likely riders would be walking that extra half block today, over 40 years later, from Brighton 7th halfway to Coney Island Avenue. 

That's very interesting about the B49 being terminated at Emmons Av (I assume in front of what was IS 43)? I went there when I was in junior high school and I can't imagine the B49 not going into Manhattan Beach since Manhattan Beach and Sheepshead Bay are so connected. Most of the kids then lived in Sheepshead Bay, Manhattan Beach or Brighton Beach, with some living as far as Sea Gate or Coney Island.  I was good friends with quite a few kids in Manhattan Beach. We all either walked or took the B49, or sometimes I took the B4 depending on where I was going.

You also are correct about that stop being by the escalator.  The (MTA) of today does not think of such things.  Not proactive, but rather reactive... As an example, they proposed to re-route some buses in one redesign using a parkway, but never reached out to DOT about receiving permission to do so (they made it clear that they would need DOT's permission in the draft plan) or creating any HOV lanes to ensure that bus service moved accordingly.  When I mentioned it to the senior planners in a meeting, they looked completely stunned, as if no one had thought about it. lol

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7 hours ago, jaf0519 said:

You always say this, as if that makes it true. Why should the MTA care about total travel time? They aren’t involved in what you do outside this bus, whether you go to one store or two, or whether you feel the trip was worth the journey. They provide a public service, not a shuttle to your doorstep.

Lol, but IAWTP....

6 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

No, he has a point on that. If too many people see an increase in total travel time (which isn't balanced out by a similar or greater number seeing decreased travel time), then you'll end up with ridership losses.

My problem with that statement of his is that:

a] total travel time, is ambiguous.... It can mean [travel from door-to-door] or [travel whilst using MTA buses/trains (in this case)]....
b] speed is a factor of total travel time (regardless of ambiguity)....

Either way, as you stated earlier, wait times (whether it be dwell time at a stop{s}, the wait time b/w modes, etc.) are (also) a factor...

Edited by B35 via Church
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7 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

That's very interesting about the B49 being terminated at Emmons Av (I assume in front of what was IS 43)? I went there when I was in junior high school and I can't imagine the B49 not going into Manhattan Beach since Manhattan Beach and Sheepshead Bay are so connected. Most of the kids then lived in Sheepshead Bay, Manhattan Beach or Brighton Beach, with some living as far as Sea Gate or Coney Island.  I was good friends with quite a few kids in Manhattan Beach. We all either walked or took the B49, or sometimes I took the B4 depending on where I was going.

You also are correct about that stop being by the escalator.  The (MTA) of today does not think of such things.  Not proactive, but rather reactive... As an example, they proposed to re-route some buses in one redesign using a parkway, but never reached out to DOT about receiving permission to do so (they made it clear that they would need DOT's permission in the draft plan) or creating any HOV lanes to ensure that bus service moved accordingly.  When I mentioned it to the senior planners in a meeting, they looked completely stunned, as if no one had thought about it. lol

Prior to 1969, the last stop of the B49 was Shore Blvd and Neptune Ave, just after the turn. The bus then went to Cass Place without passengers and made a U turn back on Shore Blvd. then it turned right on Emmons and pulled into its terminal halfway between the school and the pedestrian bridge. People going to the beach would like off at Lunch’s, like at least 50 people per bus and walk over the bridge to the beach. I did that as a teenager. Now everyone could have stayed on the bus to the last stop and get the B1 all the way to the beach. But no one ever did that because it was an extra fare. 
 

In 2001, I suggested to Paul Gaukowski who then was in charge of Brooklyn planning that they should make a short extension of the B83 to Gateway Mall via the Belt Parkway which had just opened. He told him they needed a permit from DOT to use the Belt Parkway after he gave me a strange look because it was obvious he didn’t know he needed a permit to do that. Then it took him three whole years just to study that obvious one mile  extension before he did it exactly as I recommended. Then they started to use the Belt Parkway to get B1 buses from Ulmer Park to Kingsborough College and to Fourth Avenue not in service. It was so odd they didn’t know that, because I learned they needed a permit from the MTA back in 1975. 

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4 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Lol, but IAWTP....

My problem with that statement of his is that:

a] total travel time, is ambiguous.... It can mean [travel from door-to-door] or [travel whilst using MTA buses/trains (in this case)]....
b] speed is a factor of total travel time (regardless of ambiguity)....

Either way, as you stated earlier, wait times (whether it be dwell time at a stop{s}, the wait time b/w modes, etc.) are (also) a factor...

What is ambiguous? Passenger travel time is the time it takes to get somewhere. That includes walking time, waiting time, ingress and egress time to get on and off the buses, etc. How else would you define door to door travel? I defined it in the article I wrote for Bklyner.com. Just because the MTA instructs you not to count your walk time to the bus in their on-line survey does not make that right. When you plan your trip, don’t you account for all those factors? If you only considered your time using buses and trains, you would always be late. Your time just on the buses or trains is a meaningless number, unless you are planning service levels. 

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10 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

What is ambiguous? Passenger travel time is the time it takes to get somewhere. That includes walking time, waiting time, ingress and egress time to get on and off the buses, etc. How else would you define door to door travel? I defined it in the article I wrote for Bklyner.com. Just because the MTA instructs you not to count your walk time to the bus in their on-line survey does not make that right. When you plan your trip, don’t you account for all those factors? If you only considered your time using buses and trains, you would always be late. Your time just on the buses or trains is a meaningless number, unless you are planning service levels. 

You ask what is ambiguous - then go on to address the 2 examples I gave as to how "total travel time" can be construed in more than 1 fashion... I mean look, the blanket term in & of itself does not have a sole definition.... It means different things to different people.... You kill that ambiguity by mentioning/inquiring door-to-door travel.... Door-to-door travel is a universally understood & accepted term, whereas merely stating/asking total travel time, is not.... If I wanted to know the time it took for someone to get from some ultimate point A to ultimate point B, I would not use vague verbiage like that; what's their "total travel time"... I would be more specific than that.

You say your time on just the mode{s} is some meaningless number (aside from planners determining service levels)... I wouldn't go as far as to convey it that way, but there isn't a doubt in my mind if I were to ask random passengers their total travel time, I'm going to be met with a (relevant) follow-up question - Which to me would only point out that there isn't an automatic assumption on their part that I'm referring to door-to-door travel if I were to inquire on someone's "total travel time".... People would not know if I were to be referring to a door-to-door commute, or the "total travel time"....

....specifically on whatever mode.

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1 hour ago, B35 via Church said:

You ask what is ambiguous - then go on to address the 2 examples I gave as to how "total travel time" can be construed in more than 1 fashion... I mean look, the blanket term in & of itself does not have a sole definition.... It means different things to different people.... You kill that ambiguity by mentioning/inquiring door-to-door travel.... Door-to-door travel is a universally understood & accepted term, whereas merely stating/asking total travel time, is not.... If I wanted to know the time it took for someone to get from some ultimate point A to ultimate point B, I would not use vague verbiage like that; what's their "total travel time"... I would be more specific than that.

You say your time on just the mode{s} is some meaningless number (aside from planners determining service levels)... I wouldn't go as far as to convey it that way, but there isn't a doubt in my mind if I were to ask random passengers their total travel time, I'm going to be met with a (relevant) follow-up question - Which to me would only point out that there isn't an automatic assumption on their part that I'm referring to door-to-door travel if I were to inquire on someone's "total travel time".... People would not know if I were to be referring to a door-to-door commute, or the "total travel time"....

....specifically on whatever mode.

And what is the difference as you see it between “total travel time” “passenger travel time” and “door to door” travel time? To me they are more or less all the same thing. The only term that’s different is the time spent on buses and trains which could or could not include wait time. That is the only ambiguity I see. 
 

The MTA is just wrong in instructing riders not to include walk time as part of total travel time, because it definitely is part of it. 

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1 hour ago, BrooklynBus said:

And what is the difference as you see it between “total travel time” “passenger travel time” and “door to door” travel time? To me they are more or less all the same thing. The only term that’s different is the time spent on buses and trains which could or could not include wait time. That is the only ambiguity I see. 
 

The MTA is just wrong in instructing riders not to include walk time as part of total travel time, because it definitely is part of it. 

He's technically correct.  I think most people don't always factor in the time to get to a stop because for most trips, the walks aren't that egregious.  At most, maybe it's ten minutes to a bus stop. The focus tends to be on the actual time spent on the bus.

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8
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11 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

He's technically correct.  I think most people don't always factor in the time to get to a stop because for most trips, the walks aren't that egregious.  At most, maybe it's ten minutes to a bus stop. The focus tends to be on the actual time spent on the bus.

What about wait time? They don’t factor that in either? 
 

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5 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

What about wait time? They don’t factor that in either? 
 

If you're waiting a long time, yes.  I'll use myself as an example.  A few days ago I went to the City.  My commute was over an hour coming home because traffic was heavy due to Biden being in town (without traffic it can be 40 - 45 minutes).  When thinking about my total travel time, I didn't immediately factor in my walk to the express bus, nor the wait, though technically I should have.  The walk was maybe 8-10 minutes and the wait about five minutes.  I always factor that in when planning my trip to and from, but necessarily count it in my actual travel time.  Weird I know.  I think part of that is because I already give myself extra time either way in case of delays.

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8
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I am not sure you are even correct. I recently had to take the bus to see a councilman. I knew the bus ride was only about 10 minutes, but I allowed 30 minutes because I knew I had a five minute walk at both ends and allowed the max wait (assuming no bunching) of 10 minutes. I got there on time or a few minutes early. Had I only considered the time on the bus, I would have been 20 minutes late 

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5 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

He's technically correct.  I think most people don't always factor in the time to get to a stop because for most trips, the walks aren't that egregious.  At most, maybe it's ten minutes to a bus stop. The focus tends to be on the actual time spent on the bus.

Yeah, that's basically what I'm driving at.

6 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

And what is the difference as you see it between “total travel time” “passenger travel time” and “door to door” travel time? To me they are more or less all the same thing. The only term that’s different is the time spent on buses and trains which could or could not include wait time. That is the only ambiguity I see.

As I see it & how others tend to see it, are two different things... I'm making the argument from the vantage point of how I notice pax. tend to be about these sorts of things.... You can gauge that by being keen on how passengers tend to act/react about these sorts of things.... You might not, but I pick up on the dispositions/thought processes of passengers when I'm out riding these things.... Basically, I'm not making this about a *right or wrong*, I'm making this about interpretation....

Since you're asking me how I view those three terms (context notwithstanding of the second one), yeah, I'd say they're basically the same thing.....

6 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

The MTA is just wrong in instructing riders not to include walk time as part of total travel time, because it definitely is part of it. 

That's not what's being argued here, so.... Agreed.

5 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

What about wait time? They don’t factor that in either?

Some do, some don't.... You'd be surprised as to how many tend to not (regardless of how wrong you may see that as being)....

Edited by B35 via Church
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13 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

I am not sure you are even correct. I recently had to take the bus to see a councilman. I knew the bus ride was only about 10 minutes, but I allowed 30 minutes because I knew I had a five minute walk at both ends and allowed the max wait (assuming no bunching) of 10 minutes. I got there on time or a few minutes early. Had I only considered the time on the bus, I would have been 20 minutes late 

You'd be surprised by how little time people leave to get from point A to point B.  There are the people that always try to meet the bus and then complain if it is a few minutes late.  They have their commute mapped out as to how long they think it should take in their head vs. the actual amount of time needed. 

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A few things I notice:

1. Is there a real need for a Broadway Junction super-hub to warrant a split of a route like the B60, unless Broadway Junction gets full ADA access?

2. On the B5 and B82 SBS, I have to wonder if the lines should be combined into one that has a north and south branch (and instead be B50A and B50B…A via Brooklyn College and Cozine Avenue and B via Kings Highway and Spring Creek Towers). The other issue is: Gateway Drive will be clogged with buses terminating there with the B5 (B50), B13, B83, and Q51 all terminating there.

3. Operationally, the B55 will be interesting as you could have the problem you have with super-long routes, especially since a long time will be spent on narrow streets (Church Avenue and New Lots Avenue. Dispatch will have to be wary and potentially turn buses at Drew Street. It will also be interesting if that route comes out of Gleason only, as opposed to Gleason and JFK. I also see this as needing to be Select Bus…and would it make sense to route the B55 onto Linden between Nostrand/New York and Mother Gaston Boulevard, reconfiguring parts of the main road to accommodate SBS stops between Kings Highway and Rockaway Avenue? (At Mother Gaston, the route would have to return to New Lots to serve the (L) train.)

4. Speaking of Church Avenue service, what about rerouting the B67/B69 down 39 Street from their southern terminus, to end the B35 at Fort Hamilton Parkway and 36 Street (to connect with the B16 still)? I would send the B67/69 down 15 Avenue and 39 Street to 1 Avenue…which would be close to what would have been deadhead distance for the two routes, especially with the B67 being cut from the Navy Yard. The B35 would run Kensington to Brownsville only.

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What do you guys think of a B1 "SBS" or "Limited" since SBS will be gone once OMNY is fully implemented. Stopping at 4th Ave, 5th Ave, 7th Ave, 14th Ave, 18th Ave, 20th Ave, Bay Pkwy, 25th Ave, Stillwell, West 8th, Mc Donald, Ocean Pkwy, CI Hospital, Brighton Beach Ave/Ocean Pkwy, Brighton Beach (Q), West End Ave, then Kingsborough CC?

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I don’t think it would be a good idea for several reasons. Because of the el and the traffic under it, skipping stops will not save much time. The other reason is the very high amount of turnover under the el which I noticed the few times I rode from end to end. Between 18 Av and 25 Avenue at least ten got on or off at each stop. At transfer points it was like 20. Also, the buses tend to bunch a lot, so often you have to wait 20 minutes instead of ten. If half the buses skipped stops, that would increase the wait to 30 or 40 minutes when there is bunching.
 

Also, while you think you listed all the major stops, Lincoln HS is a major generator at West Avenue at arrival and dismissal times with like 30 getting on or off there. So there are times they need every bus stopping there. It might work if there were more through riders with less turnover. But given the ridership patterns I noticed, I don’t think it would be a good idea. 
 

Also except for beach traffic which is at Hastings and Falmouth, the number of buses that make additional stops between West End and the College are few. So when they do make one or two stops, it doesn’t add more than ten or 20 seconds. 

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1 hour ago, BrooklynBus said:

I don’t think it would be a good idea for several reasons. Because of the el and the traffic under it, skipping stops will not save much time. The other reason is the very high amount of turnover under the el which I noticed the few times I rode from end to end. Between 18 Av and 25 Avenue at least ten got on or off at each stop. At transfer points it was like 20. Also, the buses tend to bunch a lot, so often you have to wait 20 minutes instead of ten. If half the buses skipped stops, that would increase the wait to 30 or 40 minutes when there is bunching.
 

Also, while you think you listed all the major stops, Lincoln HS is a major generator at West Avenue at arrival and dismissal times with like 30 getting on or off there. So there are times they need every bus stopping there. It might work if there were more through riders with less turnover. But given the ridership patterns I noticed, I don’t think it would be a good idea. 
 

Also except for beach traffic which is at Hastings and Falmouth, the number of buses that make additional stops between West End and the College are few. So when they do make one or two stops, it doesn’t add more than ten or 20 seconds. 

I agree with you about the turnover, but there should be some sort or SBS line on the B1. It is REALLY slow. One of the main issues in Southern Brooklyn (as you know living there and me growing up there) is West-East routes are really filling a void in a lack of subway service. That is one reason the B1 is so popular.

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46 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I agree with you about the turnover, but there should be some sort or SBS line on the B1. It is REALLY slow. One of the main issues in Southern Brooklyn (as you know living there and me growing up there) is West-East routes are really filling a void in a lack of subway service. That is one reason the B1 is so popular.

I know it’s slow, but the only way to fix it would be to run another route along the Belt Parkway that makes a few stops in Bay Ridge, goes on the Belt and gets off at Ocean Parkway and rejoins the B1 to serve the eastern end. However, I don’t know if there would be enough demand to justify it. My neighbor makes that trip everyday by cab because it takes 20 minutes as opposed to the B1 taking about 45. 

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2 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

I know it’s slow, but the only way to fix it would be to run another route along the Belt Parkway that makes a few stops in Bay Ridge, goes on the Belt and gets off at Ocean Parkway and rejoins the B1 to serve the eastern end. However, I don’t know if there would be enough demand to justify it. My neighbor makes that trip everyday by cab because it takes 20 minutes as opposed to the B1 taking about 45. 

Yeah it couldn't run under the EL just because as you said, very little time would be saved.

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8 hours ago, N6 Limited said:

Are any of the zoom meetings recorded?  I’m  curious as to the feedback of the redesign.

The chats are saved internally. I have asked the MTA to consider making them public. I am waiting for a reply. On the chat, they just said they wouldn’t make them public. As for videos, they may be recorded, but they wouldn’t release them either. They don’t want anyone to know what the feedback is. One reason why I wrote my second article. https://bklyner.com/brooklyn-bus-network-redesign-concerns/

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13 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

I know it’s slow, but the only way to fix it would be to run another route along the Belt Parkway that makes a few stops in Bay Ridge, goes on the Belt and gets off at Ocean Parkway and rejoins the B1 to serve the eastern end. However, I don’t know if there would be enough demand to justify it. My neighbor makes that trip everyday by cab because it takes 20 minutes as opposed to the B1 taking about 45. 

This could even be some sort of a micro-bus service similar to the Elmont Flexi.  Simple running along 4th Ave in Bay Ridge from 86th Street (R), then via the Belt stopping at Bay Parkway, Cropsey Ave (Bay 50th Street (D)) , Ocean Parkway, Sheepshead Bay (B)(Q), Nostrand Ave, Knapp Street, Plum Beach (eastbound only) , Flatbush Ave, then split into a

QB-1-via Belt Parkway stopping at Riding Academy (eastbound only), Rockaway Parkway, Pennsylvania Ave, Gateway Center, Cross Bay Blvd, Aqueduct-N Conduit (A), JFK Airport.

QB-2-via Flatbush Ave stopping at Riis Park, Rockaway Park  (A)(Sblue), Rockaway Ferry, Beach 67th Street (A)

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42 minutes ago, TDL said:

This could even be some sort of a micro-bus service similar to the Elmont Flexi.  Simple running along 4th Ave in Bay Ridge from 86th Street (R), then via the Belt stopping at Bay Parkway, Cropsey Ave (Bay 50th Street (D)) , Ocean Parkway, Sheepshead Bay (B)(Q), Nostrand Ave, Knapp Street, Plum Beach (eastbound only) , Flatbush Ave, then split into a

QB-1-via Belt Parkway stopping at Riding Academy (eastbound only), Rockaway Parkway, Pennsylvania Ave, Gateway Center, Cross Bay Blvd, Aqueduct-N Conduit (A), JFK Airport.

QB-2-via Flatbush Ave stopping at Riis Park, Rockaway Park  (A)(Sblue), Rockaway Ferry, Beach 67th Street (A)

But the MTA does not want to invest in new services.

 

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10 hours ago, TDL said:

QB-1-via Belt Parkway stopping at Riding Academy (eastbound only), Rockaway Parkway, Pennsylvania Ave, Gateway Center, Cross Bay Blvd, Aqueduct-N Conduit (A), JFK Airport.

While this route would likely be faster than taking local streets, they have to address why the Belt Parkway is chronically congested eastbound, up to the bridge over the Brooklyn/Queens border. I’m not sure if it’s the grade change or sight distance and/or the cars entering from Gateway, but it’s annoying.

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28 minutes ago, N6 Limited said:

While this route would likely be faster than taking local streets, they have to address why the Belt Parkway is chronically congested eastbound, up to the bridge over the Brooklyn/Queens border. I’m not sure if it’s the grade change or sight distance and/or the cars entering from Gateway, but it’s annoying.

It’s just got too many cars. They should have widened it when it was reconstructed. Anyway they did add a shoulder which can be used as a bus lane for mist of the way. A small portion needs a minor upgrade to make it usable. The only place where the bus would have to use the regular lanes is over Hendrix Creek near the Brooklyn Queens border, unless they rebuild the bridge to make it wider. 

 

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10 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

It’s just got too many cars. They should have widened it when it was reconstructed. Anyway they did add a shoulder which can be used as a bus lane for mist of the way. A small portion needs a minor upgrade to make it usable. The only place where the bus would have to use the regular lanes is over Hendrix Creek near the Brooklyn Queens border, unless they rebuild the bridge to make it wider. 

 

Rebuilding that bridge would be great, even the pedestrian walk way is tight. Idk why couldn't they do it when they rebuilt the rest of the Belt..?

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