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Brooklyn Bus Redesign Discussion Thread


Cait Sith
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59 minutes ago, Lex said:

That only convinces me that you've never been on/seen the B42, and as a result, think its short length means it hardly pulls in riders. Perhaps that's true of the Q42 or the New Brighton-bound S42 (not putting too much stock in either, mind you), but based on the areas the route serves and how easily the buses fill up, the B42 is anything but a load. If anything, it complements the subway while still providing reasonable bus connections.

The really insulting thing, however, is trying to combine it with the B60, a route that's far less frequent and consistent (and, if you ask me, probably needs to be split).

I’ve felt the same way about the B60. The few times I’ve taken it, the thing took forever to come and it’s quite slow because of all the traffic especially on Wilson Ave. 
How would you split the route up?

Edited by NewFlyer 230
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I see someone has never ridden the B42.

 

As someone who rides the line daily, i can tell u right now that eliminating that line would be the most dumbest thing I've ever seen MTA do. That bus gets decent loads of people at all times of the day. It's honestly fine the way it is, i just wish the OTP was better overall.

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3 hours ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

I’ve felt the same way about the B60. The few times I’ve taken it, the thing took forever to come and it’s quite slow because of all the traffic especially on Wilson Ave. 
How would you split the route up?

To be honest, I don't know. The Rockaway Avenue leg was enough to get me to avoid the route entirely, and as a result, I'm only familiar with a little less than half of the route.

If I were to take a real shot in the dark with what little I know about the B20 between Ridgewood and Broadway Junction (largely thanks to B35), I could suggest permanently cutting the B20 back to Broadway Junction, handing Ridgewood duties to the Rockaway Avenue route and giving Wilson Avenue a direct connection to Broadway Junction. Of course, I don't really see that panning out too well.

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14 hours ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

I’ve felt the same way about the B60. The few times I’ve taken it, the thing took forever to come and it’s quite slow because of all the traffic especially on Wilson Ave. 
How would you split the route up?

11 hours ago, Lex said:

To be honest, I don't know. The Rockaway Avenue leg was enough to get me to avoid the route entirely, and as a result, I'm only familiar with a little less than half of the route.

If I were to take a real shot in the dark with what little I know about the B20 between Ridgewood and Broadway Junction (largely thanks to B35), I could suggest permanently cutting the B20 back to Broadway Junction, handing Ridgewood duties to the Rockaway Avenue route and giving Wilson Avenue a direct connection to Broadway Junction. Of course, I don't really see that panning out too well.

That's the part of the B20 I use the most (non-fanning purposes); used to take the B12 → B20 to get to that pizza hut in Ridgewood, before it closed... The B20 past B'way Junction isn't much more than basic coverage....

If I absolutely had to split the B60 up, I'd also connect Wilson av to B'way Junction (however, I'd terminate it with the B12 at Alabama)... The Rockaway av. portion, I'd end it with the B7 at Halsey (J).... I'd keep the B20 running up to Myrtle/Summerfield, but at coverage headways.... I'm not so certain the B60 would fare any better than the B20 north of Broadway, towards Ridgewood....

Speaking of the B20... look at this shit:

xcHb8tg.png

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On 8/21/2020 at 6:03 PM, B35 via Church said:

If I absolutely had to split the B60 up, I'd also connect Wilson av to B'way Junction (however, I'd terminate it with the B12 at Alabama)... The Rockaway av. portion, I'd end it with the B7 at Halsey (J)

this makes so much sense, that they'd automatically reject this idea on the basis of logical practicality. the B60 has always been a P.O.S. back to the east ny depot/New Lots ÷ stanley avenue destination sign/east ny avenue relief point days. from '93 til about '97 i rode the 60 frequently, always believing there had to be a better way of doing this (i had a commute from breukelen project to union Avenue, weekdays & Saturdays) 

btw right now @ 11:55am, there's only 1 northbound B60 out, at rockaway & Avenue d... 3 southbound: hooper, halsey and leonard. 

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4 hours ago, EastFlatbushLarry said:

this makes so much sense, that they'd automatically reject this idea on the basis of logical practicality. the B60 has always been a P.O.S. back to the east ny depot/New Lots ÷ stanley avenue destination sign/east ny avenue relief point days. from '93 til about '97 i rode the 60 frequently, always believing there had to be a better way of doing this (i had a commute from breukelen project to union Avenue, weekdays & Saturdays) 

btw right now @ 11:55am, there's only 1 northbound B60 out, at rockaway & Avenue d... 3 southbound: hooper, halsey and leonard. 

The Wilson av. segment of the route is the easy target (in terms of the cause of its unreliability or whatever), but the part of the B60 that drives me nuts is actually the Williamsburg/E. Williamsburg portion (basically, once it passes Flushing av).... Operates on 1-way streets most of that time & on top of it, commonly impeded by either some delivery van, school bus, or some box truck (bonus points if you're behind a garbage truck!).... I guess this is why I don't really mind the Wilson av. portion so much, because I'd largely use the thing from WBP & I feel rather relieved once we get through residential Williamsburg & industrial E. Williamsburg.... It always tickles me when ppl. get off at the Marcy av stop & walk to the terminal, instead of staying on the bus to get to the terminal... It happens on the B46 too, but I find that more people are willing to stay on the B46 'til it pulls into the terminal, compared to the B60...

If the Rockaway av portion of the B60 were to be split off to terminating at Halsey (J), I'm of the belief that a good portion of those riders that accumulate in their wait for the B7 (another route that's long ran like a POS) over on Halsey/Saratoga would interchangeably use the B60 within Ocean Hill... South of Pitkin though, not so much....

Be there as it may, the B60 is a solid route between Canarsie & Bushwick (which is why I wouldn't be too quick to actually pull the trigger in actually splitting it)... The coverage it provides in Williamsburg & East Williamburg puts that much more of a strain on the thing....

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@B35 via Church How would you feel about cutting the B60 to Flushing Avenue (or maybe Morgan Avenue (L) ) and having a Bushwick Avenue route starting from Broadway Junction, and then taking over the western section of the B60 (west of Bushwick Avenue)? Only difference is westbound buses would take Bushwick straight to Meserole to avoid a couple of turns and also directly serve the (L) station.

Edited by checkmatechamp13
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10 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

@B35 via Church How would you feel about cutting the B60 to Flushing Avenue (or maybe Morgan Avenue (L) ) and having a Bushwick Avenue route starting from Broadway Junction, and then taking over the western section of the B60 (west of Bushwick Avenue)?

If you were to have buses terminating at Morgan (L) full time, you'd pretty much have to shift the bus stop to the corner of Morgan/Harrison (before the turn).... Regardless, I wouldn't have a problem with ending the B60 (from Canarsie) at Flushing av. or Morgan (L).... In turn, either the B32 or the B39 would need to run to (at least) Graham av or Bushwick av (over there by Montrose (L)) though....

To the other part of the inquiry, a Bushwick av. route would be suicide... DOA; almost as bad as a Canal st. route.... Too much traffic from off the JRP & from off Penn (av).... The more eastern part of Bushwick av is actually prone to gridlock; happened more times than I care to remember whilst on a B20 or a B60.... Although Broadway is piece-mealed like shit from WBP to (towards) B'way Junction, you still wouldn't get too many people embarking on a Bushwick av route, especially if it's only going to ultimately take ppl. to B'way Junction...

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  • 2 weeks later...
23 minutes ago, Bay Ridge Express said:

I think both the B6 (local) and B8 should be split, with the split point for both of them at around Brooklyn College. The B6 LTD would become the B6-SBS and would not be split. Thoughts?

I've said it in the past that i personally think the B6 should be divided into 3 routes... cropsey to avenue H/Nostrand, coney Island Avenue to Williams Avenue/glenwood road & rock station to new lots station. the B6 imo does way too much covering at minimum 3 distinct service patterns, hence why I'd have certain sections overlap for connecting purposes (for the very select few that actually travel almost end to end on the current B6) I'd also keep the current B6 LTD running end to end in the form of SBS. i also have the same theory for the B82 SBS, dividing the local into 2 sections (reactivating the original B5 & B50, B5 Coney Island Terminal to Flatbush/kings hwy except late nights & overnights, terminating at Canal Av, and the B50 Seaview to coney island avenue/Quentin) 

the B8 would be divided into 2 routes, bay ridge to Newkirk IRT and rockaway/hegeman to Newkirk IRT, but would terminate at flatbush junction (flatbush & Nostrand, not crossing the light into the B44/B11 stop) 

Edited by EastFlatbushLarry
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30 minutes ago, EastFlatbushLarry said:

the B8 would be divided into 2 routes, bay ridge to Newkirk IRT and rockaway/hegeman to Newkirk IRT, but would terminate at flatbush junction (flatbush & Nostrand, not crossing the light into the B44/B11 stop) 

Does this mean those buses would be laid up by the HSBC on the Flatbush Avenue side?

For that matter, would buses use Rogers Avenue to head back to Brookdale?

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1 hour ago, Bay Ridge Express said:

I think both the B6 (local) and B8 should be split, with the split point for both of them at around Brooklyn College. The B6 LTD would become the B6-SBS and would not be split. Thoughts?

Splitting the  at the Junction would tag the 11 as the local to CIA. Run times for the 11 and 6 lcl are about the same weekdays, increasing on the weekends. During the semester 6 & 11 will be swamped by the students from both schools to and from Ave J Brighton with less service (no 6 lcl).  Cutting the 6 over a mile back to Flatush might save a few bucks...is it worth it?

The B8 on 18th Ave is busy. Your plan would turn half the buses back to serve the lighter portion of the route. Is it assumed that the short turn is running down Nostrand Ave (and the full run keeping its current route) from Ave D to the Junction? If so, it's like squeezing an elephant into a full stable of stallions: Short 6, short 8, 44 lcl, 44 SBS, dollar cabs, double parked deliveries...David Copperfield might be able to pull it off. And no layovers at the VA Hosp; straight through to 9 & 4th.

1 hour ago, EastFlatbushLarry said:

I've said it in the past that i personally think the B6 should be divided into 3 routes... cropsey to avenue H/Nostrand, coney Island Avenue to Williams Avenue/glenwood road & rock station to new lots station. the B6 imo does way too much covering at minimum 3 distinct service patterns, hence why I'd have certain sections overlap for connecting purposes (for the very select few that actually travel almost end to end on the current B6) I'd also keep the current B6 LTD running end to end in the form of SBS. i also have the same theory for the B82 SBS, dividing the local into 2 sections (reactivating the original B5 & B50, B5 Coney Island Terminal to Flatbush/kings hwy except late nights & overnights, terminating at Canal Av, and the B50 Seaview to coney island avenue/Quentin) 

the B8 would be divided into 2 routes, bay ridge to Newkirk IRT and rockaway/hegeman to Newkirk IRT, but would terminate at flatbush junction (flatbush & Nostrand, not crossing the light into the B44/B11 stop) 

This is too much to take in with a sleepy brain!

48 minutes ago, Lex said:

Does this mean those buses would be laid up by the HSBC on the Flatbush Avenue side?

For that matter, would buses use Rogers Avenue to head back to Brookdale?

 

7 minutes ago, EastFlatbushLarry said:

yes and yes

Laying up the 6 & 8 on the n/e side of Flatbush by the subway exit might look good on paper...could be a nightmare in actuality. IMO I think your idea for the 6, 8 & 82 is a lot of juggling with no real benefit and costing more.

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3 hours ago, Bay Ridge Express said:

I think both the B6 (local) and B8 should be split, with the split point for both of them at around Brooklyn College. The B6 LTD would become the B6-SBS and would not be split. Thoughts?

I don't feel that strongly about splitting either of those two routes, to be quite honest... The route I would split before the B6 & the B8, is the B82.

3 hours ago, EastFlatbushLarry said:

I've said it in the past that i personally think the B6 should be divided into 3 routes... cropsey to avenue H/Nostrand, coney Island Avenue to Williams Avenue/glenwood road & rock station to new lots station. the B6 imo does way too much covering at minimum 3 distinct service patterns, hence why I'd have certain sections overlap for connecting purposes (for the very select few that actually travel almost end to end on the current B6) I'd also keep the current B6 LTD running end to end in the form of SBS.

I don't the see the point behind having that second split ending at the Breukelen houses; may as well have that split (starting at CI av) running to New Lots (3)....

1 hour ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

@EastFlatbushLarry If the B8 were to be split, I think the Brighton Line would be a better split point. (Or have a bit of overlap between the Brighton Line and Nostrand Avenue)

Nah.... Even though it's a subway station, having the western portion end at Newkirk Plaza would be a stub.... You'd need that overlap.

Edited by B35 via Church
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3 hours ago, EastFlatbushLarry said:

 

the B8 would be divided into 2 routes, bay ridge to Newkirk IRT and rockaway/hegeman to Newkirk IRT, but would terminate at flatbush junction (flatbush & Nostrand, not crossing the light into the B44/B11 stop) 

 

Will have to kindly disagree here. Many people need the connection to the brighton line (including myself ). 

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Just now, Jdog14 said:

 

Will have to kindly disagree here. Many people need the connection to the brighton line (including myself ). 

no worries. i read someone else's response regarding a Brighton line-newkirk overlap. i can dig it. 

 

1 hour ago, TeeLow said:

IMO I think your idea for the 6, 8 & 82 is a lot of juggling with no real benefit and costing more

i respect your opinion. i offered mine from the perspective of having operated on lines like the M101, B6, B82 (local & LTD, pre sbs) among other long lines that have headways/runs that benefit certain areas of a line, yet are over saturated in others. i don't work in Road Ops, so maybe my opinion is a bit jaded, I'll submit. however, i refuse to believe the current B6, end to end, pre covid-19 equally serves the entire line adequately, which is what I believe the goal should be, not a blanket headway covering corridors that have different needs . imo, lines like the B6 do not require the same headway on bay parkway, cozine & flatlands/avenue H/glenwood/avenue J. that's not adequate to me when a line like this suffers and has suffered from consistent bunching. ditto the M101. lines like the 101/2/3, B6 and others benefit operators immensely,by way of run pay. i made some money by way of late slips (i didn't get rich, trust me) but I'm speaking more to the customer experience, and getting buses where they're needed, not running empty or bunched, or not being properly dispatched by SLD's or BCC (bus time) when there's another way to do business, especially with talks of a network redesign. when i broach the subject of breaking up a line, I'm not speaking from a mindset of 2 or 3 equal parts running the exact same headway as the former line they originated from. I'm speaking of actually doing homework to get it right.. not a repeat of the M5/M55 f**k'ry. which NEEDED to happen, regardless of how incorrectly they executed the process. it was unnecessary to run the M5 from South ferry to the heights, and in my humble opinion, the B6 is unnecessary as is, so is the 82 local, B8 and the M101. i don't sip transit's jim jones kool aid, where what they have to offer is the best they have to offer. regardless, they don't get money from the feds = shit's getting cut anyway, so I'm not saying that I have the cure-all or that my opinion is flawless. it definitely gets people thinking. 

 

1 hour ago, B35 via Church said:

don't the see the point behind having that second split ending at the Breukelen houses

i was just considering getting buses turned around heading westbound asap (which is what my whole philosophy has been re: breaking up some of these drawn out runs) could've done that at rock station, however my thinking was to have an overlap in that area, and to keep rock station from being cluttered... i realize i may have contradicted myself, with sending buses down to the flatbush junction quagmire, however my thought was to give b/o's access to the junction swing room and to be supervised by the junction SLD. anyway, overall point taken. 

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18 minutes ago, EastFlatbushLarry said:

....however, i refuse to believe the current B6, end to end, pre covid-19 equally serves the entire line adequately, which is what I believe the goal should be, not a blanket headway covering corridors that have different needs . imo, lines like the B6 do not require the same headway on bay parkway, cozine & flatlands/avenue H/glenwood/avenue J. that's not adequate to me when a line like this suffers and has suffered from consistent bunching.

18 minutes ago, EastFlatbushLarry said:

i was just considering getting buses turned around heading westbound asap (which is what my whole philosophy has been re: breaking up some of these drawn out runs) could've done that at rock station, however my thinking was to have an overlap in that area, and to keep rock station from being cluttered... i realize i may have contradicted myself, with sending buses down to the flatbush junction quagmire, however my thought was to give b/o's access to the junction swing room and to be supervised by the junction SLD. anyway, overall point taken. 

While I don't feel as strongly about splitting the B6 (to me, it pales in comparison to the M101), I have to agree with the Bay Pkwy portion of the route not really warranting the service levels that the portion of the route at & east of Flatbush av warrants.... This is why I support more of those B6 short trips & why I mentioned having an eastern split of the thing running the rest of the route east of CI av (instead of having a 3rd split of the route basically being an extension of the old B84; by running it b/w the (L) & the (3))....

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5 hours ago, EastFlatbushLarry said:

i respect your opinion. i offered mine from the perspective of having operated on lines like the M101, B6, B82 (local & LTD, pre sbs) among other long lines that have headways/runs that benefit certain areas of a line, yet are over saturated in others. i don't work in Road Ops, so maybe my opinion is a bit jaded, I'll submit. however, i refuse to believe the current B6, end to end, pre covid-19 equally serves the entire line adequately, which is what I believe the goal should be, not a blanket headway covering corridors that have different needs . imo, lines like the B6 do not require the same headway on bay parkway, cozine & flatlands/avenue H/glenwood/avenue J. that's not adequate to me when a line like this suffers and has suffered from consistent bunching. ditto the M101. lines like the 101/2/3, B6 and others benefit operators immensely,by way of run pay. i made some money by way of late slips (i didn't get rich, trust me) but I'm speaking more to the customer experience, and getting buses where they're needed, not running empty or bunched, or not being properly dispatched by SLD's or BCC (bus time) when there's another way to do business, especially with talks of a network redesign. when i broach the subject of breaking up a line, I'm not speaking from a mindset of 2 or 3 equal parts running the exact same headway as the former line they originated from. I'm speaking of actually doing homework to get it right.. not a repeat of the M5/M55 f**k'ry. which NEEDED to happen, regardless of how incorrectly they executed the process. it was unnecessary to run the M5 from South ferry to the heights, and in my humble opinion, the B6 is unnecessary as is, so is the 82 local, B8 and the M101. i don't sip transit's jim jones kool aid, where what they have to offer is the best they have to offer. regardless, they don't get money from the feds = shit's getting cut anyway, so I'm not saying that I have the cure-all or that my opinion is flawless. it definitely gets people thinking.

The viewpoint from a B/O's perspective would be a heluva experience. It gives you better insight. From a rider's eyes your 3 slice cut of the B6 Salami isn't totally tasteless; it might look better on a roll than from between a couple slices of Wonder. Maybe instead of a 3-way cut, an adjustment of the current setup could work...possibly turning more buses at CIA.

Restoring the old 5/50 split on the B82 split looks like a journey to nostalgia but it's more doable than the B6 cutup. You'd keep the SBS and run it top to bottom?

Edited by TeeLow
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8 hours ago, TeeLow said:

Splitting the  at the Junction would tag the 11 as the local to CIA. Run times for the 11 and 6 lcl are about the same weekdays, increasing on the weekends. During the semester 6 & 11 will be swamped by the students from both schools to and from Ave J Brighton with less service (no 6 lcl).  Cutting the 6 over a mile back to Flatush might save a few bucks...is it worth it?

I have no idea what you're talking about. I said the B6 would be split at the junction, therefore there would be local service on both sides (west and east of the junction) with a connection the (Q) at Ave J.

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2 hours ago, Bay Ridge Express said:

I have no idea what you're talking about. I said the B6 would be split at the junction, therefore there would be local service on both sides (west and east of the junction) with a connection the (Q) at Ave J.

Wait...something's off here. So in order to continue their trip passengers get off the lcl at the Junction and xfer to another 6 (lcl or ltd) at the Junction? Perhaps you can elaborate further on what happens at the Junction and explain why the split is necessary in the first place.

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I can understand wanting to split the B6 at the Junction, but what doesn't really make sense to me is having both splits of the B8 ending around Brooklyn College... People coming off the EB B8 at Flatbush av. tend to gravitate towards the NB B41 over the SB B41.....

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19 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

I can understand wanting to split the B6 at the Junction, but what doesn't really make sense to me is having both splits of the B8 ending around Brooklyn College... People coming off the EB B8 at Flatbush av. tend to gravitate towards the NB B41 over the SB B41.....

Agreed. I propose one split being 95 St-Flatbush and the other Newkirk (B)(Q)-Brownsville

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21 hours ago, TeeLow said:

Wait...something's off here. So in order to continue their trip passengers get off the lcl at the Junction and xfer to another 6 (lcl or ltd) at the Junction? Perhaps you can elaborate further on what happens at the Junction and explain why the split is necessary in the first place.

Yes, and it is necessary because

a) different demographics are being served on the sides west and east of the junction

b) bunching can be reduced

c) the same bph is not necessary on both sides west and east of the junction

 

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On 9/4/2020 at 2:27 AM, B35 via Church said:

I don't feel that strongly about splitting either of those two routes, to be quite honest... The route I would split before the B6 & the B8, is the B82.

Yeah. In terms of length, the B82 is longer than both those lines, sitting at 12.8 miles with the B6 at 12.6 and B8 at 10 miles flat. Having seen the B8, its problem area is mainly 18th Avenue. Heavy congestion along that street

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