Brooklyn Bus Redesign Discussion Thread

[B35 via Church]

1 hour ago, SoSpectacular said:

Yeah. In terms of length, the B82 is longer than both those lines, sitting at 12.8 miles with the B6 at 12.6 and B8 at 10 miles flat. Having seen the B8, its problem area is mainly 18th Avenue. Heavy congestion along that street

I just hate the way the B8 on the eastern portion of the route snails its way through (between, say, Rockaway & Flatbush)... At least with 18th, you can understand why it snails along the way, the way it does.... Outside of fanning, I can't deal with the B8... Far too slow & far too inconsistent for as "far" as it has to travel.... In conjunction with its route length, I'd say the 18th av. portion is the reason people might want to split the route.... I personally wouldn't do it, but I can understand why they would... ughk....

[SoSpectacular]

1 hour ago, B35 via Church said:

I just hate the way the B8 on the eastern portion of the route snails its way through (between, say, Rockaway & Flatbush)... At least with 18th, you can understand why it snails along the way, the way it does.... Outside of fanning, I can't deal with the B8... Far too slow & far too inconsistent for as "far" as it has to travel.... In conjunction with its route length, I'd say the 18th av. portion is the reason people might want to split the route.... I personally wouldn't do it, but I can understand why they would... ughk....

Yeah, it's a looooong stretch, from Coney Island Ave all the way to Cropsey? Sheesh. Lol

[TeeLow]

On 9/5/2020 at 10:09 AM, Bay Ridge Express said:

Yes, and it is necessary because

a) different demographics are being served on the sides west and east of the junction

b) bunching can be reduced

c) the same bph is not necessary on both sides west and east of the junction

 

A. The demos are subtly shifting. It's not substantial but it is noticeable along Ave J. As an example, look at Mill Basin around Ave M east into the 70s. There's a big change from 10 years ago.

B. Bunching is a traffic phenomena and can be very unpredictable. There will always be bunching.

C. I agree, but the numbers don't dictate a wholesale change, particularly when the route already has a short turn included.

D. Splitting the route at the Junction isn't easy for one bus. The 6 would present two involving Glenwood Rd. Wow.

 

My opinions are the exception rather than the rule. On this board I've been more than right so I'm probably wrong here too 😄. I've learned a lot from some very smart people. Don't take it the wrong way. I just don't think the split is warranted.

[Bay Ridge Express]

2 hours ago, TeeLow said:

A. The demos are subtly shifting. It's not substantial but it is noticeable along Ave J. As an example, look at Mill Basin around Ave M east into the 70s. There's a big change from 10 years ago.

Ok? Isn't the point of bus routes to change to account for shifting demographics?

2 hours ago, TeeLow said:

B. Bunching is a traffic phenomena and can be very unpredictable. There will always be bunching.

I agree it may be unpredictable, but when you have a bus go on a street that constantly experiences traffic, also travel down to some neighborhood far away, the people in that neighborhood will suffer because of it.

As for your last two points, I generally agree--you could argue, "what is the point of a split when you have short turns?" but unless a lot of people on the route are actually traveling end-to-end (or at least, a lot of people are traveling in between the proposed split point) it might not make sense to constantly rely on short turns. Others have pointed out that the B6 may not be that in need of a split, however, to which I'll give them credit. And you're right that there is no easy way to terminate at the junction given what is already going on there (with terminating).

[TeeLow]

In my last post it should've read "I've been wrong more than right so I'm probably wrong here too"

The demos are shifting westward, meaning that more people are coming from the east and from the north. Without concrete numbers it's all conjecture so we don't know either way. Schedules and routes are going to change after the redesign. Your idea could happen.

Edited September 8, 2020 by TeeLow

[BrooklynBus]

On 9/7/2020 at 7:29 PM, TeeLow said:

B. Bunching is a traffic phenomena and can be very unpredictable. There will always be bunching.

There will always be bunching, not because of traffic, but because the MTA has no desire to reduce it. This was evidenced in April and May when there was virtually no traffic and few passengers to cause delays, but buses on routes with 20 minute headways were still bunched in some cases. 

[Lawrence St]

5 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

There will always be bunching, not because of traffic, but because the MTA has no desire to reduce it. This was evidenced in April and May when there was virtually no traffic and few passengers to cause delays, but buses on routes with 20 minute headways were still bunched in some cases. 

Part of that has to do with interlining. A bus can run late on its interlined trip which makes it bunch up with the bus on its next interlined trip. I've seen it happen multiple times.

[Gotham Bus Co.]

18 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

Part of that has to do with interlining. A bus can run late on its interlined trip which makes it bunch up with the bus on its next interlined trip. I've seen it happen multiple times.

So buses can be bunched on the Q46 just because one driver did his first half on the Q2?

[B35 via Church]

20 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

Part of that has to do with interlining. A bus can run late on its interlined trip which makes it bunch up with the bus on its next interlined trip. I've seen it happen multiple times.

As worded, the totality of that bolded statement sounds highly, highly implausible....

Convey a real world example of whatever it is you're even saying with this, since you say you've seen it happen multiple times.

2 hours ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

So buses can be bunched on the Q46 just because one driver did his first half on the Q2?

It's looking like the automatic assumption on his end is that the Q2 trip (using your example) is also the result of an interline.... In other words, buses are late all over the place, which is causing all this bus bunching, due to all this interlining going on.... It's a quintessential slippery slope argument....

Edited September 13, 2020 by B35 via Church
combined....

[B35 via Church]

(delete)

Edited September 13, 2020 by B35 via Church

[SoSpectacular]

17 hours ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

So buses can be bunched on the Q46 just because one driver did his first half on the Q2?

No.

As mentioned above, bunching is always going to happen but dispatch won't always put us in place if we start our second halves late because we missed the initial lunch break/and or late relief. It seems that we are much less likely to be put in place when headways between buses are large, 20+ minutes or so I would put it, because what ends up happening, a 20 minute headway is going to become a 40+ minute headway due to the missing bus, and the bus that comes after is now going to have to deal with that much bigger crowd and practically delay the entire line. Best to let the buses continue as they are.

Best example I can think of was this past summer pick on the B68. When the headway becomes 20 minutes on Sunday nights, there's still quite a bit of people waiting for the bus (especially when the rides were free). My leader would get her bus late because the operator she relieved was usually behind schedule. No instructions from dispatch but to continue as is. By the time I get my bus she's probably a few minutes ahead of me or we're going down Coney Island Avenue together for the next 3-4 trips tag-teaming stops because there's so many people, plus if HER leader is missing, that's two jam-packed buses going down at the same time.

It was messy, but we got it done.

Edited September 14, 2020 by SoSpectacular

[B35 via Church]

Oy vey, The M99 early this morning.... Managed to ride the full route finally.... The thing arrived in pairs at New Lots .... Of the 6 total B15's I saw while I was waiting for the thing, not a single one in either direction had more than like 10 people.... Buses around that time towards JFK are usually crowded.... Anyway, both buses (M99's) left the same time too... We pulled out around 3:30am (don't have my log in front of me right this second), and this MF-er was SRO by time we hit Pennsylvania av.... Crushloaded before we hit Fulton.... The bus behind us apparently wasn't picking up much of anyone.... It eventually passed us when we hit Bowery/Canal, and only a whopping grand total of 2 Mf-ers was on that bus....

I'm still trying to figure out why so many people get off at Bowery/Canal on the M99 in-particular... about 1/3'rd of the bus emptied out, soon as we crossed the bridge.... That trend isn't apparent on the B99; the patronage b/w Bowery & 14th is rather even-keeled....

[Lex]

2 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Oy vey, The M99 early this morning.... Managed to ride the full route finally.... The thing arrived in pairs at New Lots .... Of the 6 total B15's I saw while I was waiting for the thing, not a single one in either direction had more than like 10 people.... Buses around that time towards JFK are usually crowded.... Anyway, both buses (M99's) left the same time too... We pulled out around 3:30am (don't have my log in front of me right this second), and this MF-er was SRO by time we hit Pennsylvania av.... Crushloaded before we hit Fulton.... The bus behind us apparently wasn't picking up much of anyone.... It eventually passed us when we hit Bowery/Canal, and only a whopping grand total of 2 Mf-ers was on that bus....

I'm still trying to figure out why so many people get off at Bowery/Canal on the M99 in-particular... about 1/3'rd of the bus emptied out, soon as we crossed the bridge.... That trend isn't apparent on the B99; the patronage b/w Bowery & 14th is rather even-keeled....

I can't help but wonder if they're trying to get the M103.

[MysteriousBtrain]

3 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Oy vey, The M99 early this morning.... Managed to ride the full route finally.... The thing arrived in pairs at New Lots .... Of the 6 total B15's I saw while I was waiting for the thing, not a single one in either direction had more than like 10 people.... Buses around that time towards JFK are usually crowded.... Anyway, both buses (M99's) left the same time too... We pulled out around 3:30am (don't have my log in front of me right this second), and this MF-er was SRO by time we hit Pennsylvania av.... Crushloaded before we hit Fulton.... The bus behind us apparently wasn't picking up much of anyone.... It eventually passed us when we hit Bowery/Canal, and only a whopping grand total of 2 Mf-ers was on that bus....

I'm still trying to figure out why so many people get off at Bowery/Canal on the M99 in-particular... about 1/3'rd of the bus emptied out, soon as we crossed the bridge.... That trend isn't apparent on the B99; the patronage b/w Bowery & 14th is rather even-keeled....

Speaking of the 99s had the time to do all 3 routes this morning. Was actually pretty nice to ride them as I caught mostly empty buses. 

Funny thing about the Bx99. IDK if WF was really terrible with bunching on the Bx99 but I was able to catch the last two Bx99s of the day after 6AM. Matter fact, the buses were so late the last Bx99 to West village got to it's last stop just before 7AM this morning.

[Lawrence St]

On 9/13/2020 at 9:51 AM, B35 via Church said:

As worded, the totality of that bolded statement sounds highly, highly implausible....

Convey a real world example of whatever it is you're even saying with this, since you say you've seen it happen multiple times.

It's looking like the automatic assumption on his end is that the Q2 trip (using your example) is also the result of an interline.... In other words, buses are late all over the place, which is causing all this bus bunching, due to all this interlining going on.... It's a quintessential slippery slope argument....

Ok...

Let's take the M101 LTD and the M102. Let's say said bus first does its first southbound run on the M102 and its suppose to get to 6th St at 3:45 PM, but there's traffic on Lexington Av that causes it to arrive 15 minutes late. When it arrives at 6th St, it turns into an M101 LTD, but there's another M101 LTD thats leaving in one minute because the first one is late, causing those two buses to bunch up. Understand now?

[B35 via Church]

3 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

Ok...

Let's take the M101 LTD and the M102. Let's say said bus first does its first southbound run on the M102 and its suppose to get to 6th St at 3:45 PM, but there's traffic on Lexington Av that causes it to arrive 15 minutes late. When it arrives at 6th St, it turns into an M101 LTD, but there's another M101 LTD thats leaving in one minute because the first one is late, causing those two buses to bunch up. Understand now?

I understand your overuse of the word interline, sure.....

You originally said: "A bus can run late on its interlined trip which makes it bunch up with the bus on its next interlined trip."

With this example, you're talking about "first southbound run on the M102" being impeded by traffic, causing it to bunch with another NB M101LTD (as that M102 arriving at 6th is set to turn into a northbound M101 LTD or whatever).... This example of yours does not convey that M102 trip being an example of an interlined trip, nor can you really prove that being the cause of bunching in the multiple times you say you've seen this phenomenon you're describing..... That's why I said, as worded, that comment sounds very implausible - it comes across as you being all knowing what trips interlined with what, in conjunction with them (sometimes) being the cause of bunching, for as much bunching that's pervasive throughout the city.....

It sounds to me like you were simply trying to be extra with that comment... A simple, traffic causes bunching would've sufficed.... When you start injecting interlining into the mix, you start to further go down a slippery slope.....

4 hours ago, MysteriousBtrain said:

Speaking of the 99s had the time to do all 3 routes this morning. Was actually pretty nice to ride them as I caught mostly empty buses. 

Funny thing about the Bx99. IDK if WF was really terrible with bunching on the Bx99 but I was able to catch the last two Bx99s of the day after 6AM. Matter fact, the buses were so late the last Bx99 to West village got to it's last stop just before 7AM this morning.

I hope this trend of the "99's" bunching doesn't become commonplace on the B99 as they're getting to be on the Bx99 & the M99.

I'm finding that the later trips of the day on these things are the most utilized (basically, the trips that leave their respective terminals, right before the subway starts passenger service), which makes sense..... That last B99 leaving the Junction everytime I've seen it, it's been a doozy.....

As for the B41, while it's still used, it's definitely taken a hit along Flatbush during the overnight hours.... When the used to do that terminating as Prospect Park shit, the B41 to Barclays for the 4th av line to Manhattan was my go-to.... Overnight B41's used to be SRO... Now, I don't think I've seen a single B41 that had more than 10 people on it, ever since I've been using the B99.....

5 hours ago, Lex said:

I can't help but wonder if they're trying to get the M103.

Hmm... Makes me want to do the overnight M103 again & see what's up....

I'm actually getting the sense that these are more of people getting on/off there that live in the general area (Smith houses, LaGuardia houses), moreso than them seeking M103's or M15's....

[checkmatechamp13]

9 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

I'm still trying to figure out why so many people get off at Bowery/Canal on the M99 in-particular... about 1/3'rd of the bus emptied out, soon as we crossed the bridge.... That trend isn't apparent on the B99; the patronage b/w Bowery & 14th is rather even-keeled....

My first instinct would've been since it was supposed to be the overnight train is that those riders were looking to go to the East Side...except it's more of an overnight that happens to swing over to New Lots.

Out of the riders on that bus, how many would you say boarded west of Rockaway/Fulton vs. east of it?

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

6 hours ago, Lex said:

I can't help but wonder if they're trying to get the M103.

I've been on those overnight M103s a few times getting on at 6th Street, and the most I've ever see on a bus during those times is like 2-3 people. If they are indeed looking for the M103, given its headways, either they're walking, or most are headed somewhere south of 6th Street.

Edited September 15, 2020 by BM5 via Woodhaven

[B35 via Church]

1 hour ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

My first instinct would've been since it was supposed to be the overnight train is that those riders were looking to go to the East Side...except it's more of an overnight that happens to swing over to New Lots.

Out of the riders on that bus, how many would you say boarded west of Rockaway/Fulton vs. east of it?

I'd say most boarded along Fulton itself....

37 minutes ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

I've been on those overnight M103s a few times getting on at 6th Street, and the most I've ever see on a bus during those times is like 2-3 people. If they are indeed looking for the M103, given its headways, either they're walking, or most are headed somewhere south of 6th Street.

That SB M103 stop at Canal is dead, so that isn't the case with these people coming off inbound M99's.... IDK, I don't think these are people seeking M103's....

Edited September 15, 2020 by B35 via Church

[bobtehpanda]

So one solution to solving bunching is to keep a bus or two available at terminals, or various put-in places, so that you have a bit of a buffer in case one bus is late.

My understanding is one of the ways MTA has "cut waste" over the years has been to eliminate these types of "just in case" buses. I know I used to see these types of buses all the time on the Q43 at 179 growing up.

[B35 via Church]

Speaking of bunching, I'd like to know why in the world were there 4 ENY buses on layover at JFK T5 around 6am - with an incoming B15 (coincidentally) arriving at the exact same time TWO of those 4 Bed Stuy bound B15's went in service? I'd say about 25 people or so got on the 1st bus that pulled up, while me and this other dude got on the 2nd one....

So when we left, that meant there were 3 ENY buses on layover - the other 2 that were left over (from when I got off the Q10), plus the one that was incoming as the other 2 buses pulled up....

Nothing out of the ordinary on the Q10 - the other artic powered on about 2 or 3 mins after I got off the arriving Q10.... Q3 OTOH, there was nothing on layover when I got off the Q10, but as I looked back (whilst on the 2nd departing B15), there was an incoming Q3.... I'd say there about a handful of people or so at the Q3 bus shelter.

------------

Think I mentioned this before, but the Bx99 & M99 are constantly bunching... Whenever I randomly look on bustime here from home, or when I'm out & about in Manhattan during the overnight hours, I'm almost always seeing either of these routes within a minute or two of (sometimes literally right behind) each other..... I'm sorry, but that shit should not be consistently happening at damn 2,3,4 in the morning, especially on 20 min. (scheduled) headways.....

Edited September 27, 2020 by B35 via Church

[P3F]

Just a random thought I had...

It would be quite nice if the B61 were to be extended to Church Av ; this would make Park Slope, Gowanus, Red Hook, and Ikea much easier to access from the Brighton Line and points east/south.

It could simply follow the B68 on PPSW and the B16 on Caton Av, making limited stops on both stretches.

If PPW between 15 St and 20 St can't lose its bus service, the B68 could be extended to the B61's current terminal.

Edited October 19, 2020 by P3F

[checkmatechamp13]

@P3F To be fair, the Red Hook area was mentioned a lot in the Brooklyn Existing Conditions Report. I could see them splitting the B61 in Red Hook, and extending the southern end down somewhere into Flatbush.

I'd run it down Church instead of Caton if the goal was to connect to the Brighton Line. Caton tends to get a lot of traffic because it's technically State Route 27 (Prospect Expressway - Caton Avenue - Linden Blvd). I'm not sure how B68 ridership patterns are in that area. Is there sizable turnover at Church Avenue that you could have a Red Hook - Flatbush route cover the northern end while the B68 itself gets cut back to Church Avenue?

[B35 via Church]

On 10/19/2020 at 12:44 AM, checkmatechamp13 said:

@P3F To be fair, the Red Hook area was mentioned a lot in the Brooklyn Existing Conditions Report. I could see them splitting the B61 in Red Hook, and extending the southern end down somewhere into Flatbush.

I'd run it down Church instead of Caton if the goal was to connect to the Brighton Line. Caton tends to get a lot of traffic because it's technically State Route 27 (Prospect Expressway - Caton Avenue - Linden Blvd). I'm not sure how B68 ridership patterns are in that area. Is there sizable turnover at Church Avenue that you could have a Red Hook - Flatbush route cover the northern end while the B68 itself gets cut back to Church Avenue?

IDK about them splitting the B61, but at minimum I don't see them maintaining 2 routes servicing Downtown - Red Hook.

To your question about turnover on the B68, I wouldn't necessarily say it's sizable, but it is noticeable at Church... NB B68's tend to tank out at Church at times & I'd say it's 50/50 as to whether those people are seeking B35's in either direction... The phenomenon is reciprocated from the B35 from either direction, for the SB B68.... You'd be hard pressed to see a lot of people getting off B35's (either direction) for a NB B68.... If you see a lot of people on a NB B68 past Caton, it's due to a significantly late bus... With the SB B68, while the portion b/w Pritchard sq. & Church has its riders, ridership in general starts noticeably picking up at Church.

With that said, I wouldn't bother running B61's down to Church av on the Brighton (regardless of which side of the subway station it'd directly serve) & I wouldn't exactly side with terminating the B68 at Church/Coney Island either (seems like a stub)....

Edited October 20, 2020 by B35 via Church

[Lawrence St]

So a couple of ideas I had:

B2: Gerritson Beach to Avenue V via Kings Highway Station

B36: Sea Gate/Neptune Av to Mill Basin via Ocean Avenue. Service between Avenue Z to Nostrand Av discontinued. Service merged with B100.

B64/B74: Merged into new B58 route, Sea Gate to Bay Ridge.

B31/B100: Discontinued.

 

Edited October 25, 2020 by Lawrence St