Brooklyn Bus Redesign Discussion Thread

[Via Garibaldi 8]

35 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

So a couple of ideas I had:

B2: Gerritson Beach to Avenue V via Kings Highway Station

B36: Sea Gate/Neptune Av to Mill Basin via Ocean Avenue. Service between Avenue Z to Nostrand Av discontinued. Service merged with B100.

B64/B74: Merged into new B58 route, Sea Gate to Bay Ridge.

B31/B100: Discontinued.

 

These all sound like terrible ideas. 

The B2 and B31 serve two different neighborhoods in Marine Park and Gerritsen Beach respectively, and give Avenue R more frequent service. Both lines are subway feeders first and foremost. Making these routes longer can mean much longer wait times for those riders if service is not reliable. A good example is the Bx10 and Bx20. You can wait 25 - 30 minutes for a bus after getting off of the train. I would keep the B2 and B31 as is.

The B100 is serving Mill Basin, and also functions primarily as a subway feeder.

 The B74 also is a subway feeder and runs through dense areas of Coney Island.

 

Edited October 25, 2020 by Via Garibaldi 8

[Via Garibaldi 8]

On 10/20/2020 at 1:42 PM, B35 via Church said:

To your question about turnover on the B68, I wouldn't necessarily say it's sizable, but it is noticeable at Church... NB B68's tend to tank out at Church at times & I'd say it's 50/50 as to whether those people are seeking B35's in either direction... The phenomenon is reciprocated from the B35 from either direction, for the SB B68.... You'd be hard pressed to see a lot of people getting off B35's (either direction) for a NB B68.... If you see a lot of people on a NB B68 past Caton, it's due to a significantly late bus... With the SB B68, while the portion b/w Pritchard sq. & Church has its riders, ridership in general starts noticeably picking up at Church.

I agree with this assessment. I always see a lot of B68 riders at Church and CI Avenue Southbound, but not as many Northbound, but you do have people Northbound that get on by Cortelyou, I would assume for points North of Church Av.

Edited October 25, 2020 by Via Garibaldi 8

[Via Garibaldi 8]

45 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

So a couple of ideas I had:

B2: Gerritson Beach to Avenue V via Kings Highway Station

B36: Sea Gate/Neptune Av to Mill Basin via Ocean Avenue. Service between Avenue Z to Nostrand Av discontinued. Service merged with B100.

B64/B74: Merged into new B58 route, Sea Gate to Bay Ridge.

B31/B100: Discontinued.

 

A good idea would be to explain why you suggest these changes. If people are just looking at maps and are not familiar with what these routes do, that's no good. It's important to understand who the primary ridership base is and how these buses currently run in terms of reliability, etc.  While the B74 is a short route, it gets slammed pretty hard with riders, and keeping it as a short subway feeder is not the worst idea. 

When routes are plagued with delays, the first thing planners look at is making them shorter and not trying to have them serve so many different functions.

Edited October 25, 2020 by Via Garibaldi 8

[Lawrence St]

12 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

These all sound like terrible ideas. 

The B2 and B31 serve two different neighborhoods in Marine Park and Gerritsen Beach respectively, and give Avenue R more frequent service. Both lines are subway feeders first and foremost. Making these routes longer can mean much longer wait times for those riders if service is not reliable. A good example is the Bx10 and Bx20. You can wait 25 - 30 minutes for a bus after getting off of the train. I would keep the B2 and B31 as is.

The B100 is serving Mill Basin, and also functions primarily as a subway feeder.

 The B74 also is a subway feeder and runs through dense areas of Coney Island.

 

Well these ideas are based on the way how they did the Queens redesign.

The B2/B31 combo is similar to the QT88, where combining both routes would save money and actually increase connectivity.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

3 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

Well these ideas are based on the way how they did the Queens redesign.

The B2/B31 combo is similar to the QT88, where combining both routes would save money and actually increase connectivity.

There was a reason that Queens was up in arms... I don't understand what is supposed to be serving Marine Park/Kings Plaza if the B2 is re-routed to serve Gerritsen Beach? Marine Park and Gerritsen Beach are both rather isolated neighborhoods that are subway deserts, so I'm particularly sensitive to the idea of trying to combine routes to serve multiple purposes which could mean more unreliable service for said neighborhoods.

When the  moved to cut the B2, B31 and several other routes in Southern Brooklyn, the first thing I did was to contact Senator Golden. We agreed that we would work to get service back on those lines. It was very clear then what the  was trying to do, which is cut service to areas that already have limited options with no subways.  Unless people live in areas where bus service is paramount, they don't understand how important these routes are.

Edited October 25, 2020 by Via Garibaldi 8

[Lawrence St]

5 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

There was a reason that Queens was up in arms... I don't understand what is supposed to be serving Marine Park/Kings Plaza if the B2 is re-routed to serve Gerritsen Beach? Marine Park and Gerritsen Beach are both rather isolated neighborhoods that are subway deserts, so I'm particularly sensitive to the idea of trying to combine routes to serve multiple purposes which could mean more unreliable service for said neighborhoods.

When the  moved to cut the B2, B31 and several other routes in Southern Brooklyn, the first thing I did was to contact Senator Golden. We agreed that we would work to get service back on those lines. It was very clear then what the  was trying to do, which is cut service to areas that already have limited options with no subways.  Unless people live in areas where bus service is paramount, they don't understand how important these routes are.

The new B2 combines both the B2 and B31, so there would be no lost service anywhere. Marine Park would still have service. The only difference is that instead of two routes, you now have one that runs on both lines, via Kings Highway Station. And the freed up resources can now go to increasing frequency on the B2 or somewhere else.

 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

2 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

The new B2 combines both the B2 and B31, so there would be no lost service anywhere. Marine Park would still have service. The only difference is that instead of two routes, you now have one that runs on both lines, via Kings Highway Station. And the freed up resources can now go to increasing frequency on the B2 or somewhere else.

 

But in your previous post, you said that the B100 is discontinued, so if the B2 serves Gerritsen Beach, then a part of Marine Park would indeed no longer be served, as well as Mill Basin.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

What I find funny is, there are some people that are all for residents that don't have subways just taking the bus to the subway. No express buses are needed according to them. Then they try to tinkle with the local bus to the subway connection as well, as that too is deemed "too expensive".  For people that have historically lived in two fare zones, they have always had long commutes for obvious reasons, but those commutes can be even worse when local bus service runs so poorly. The subway ride sometimes can be shorter than the bus ride. It's usually supposed to be the other way around.

Edited October 25, 2020 by Via Garibaldi 8

[B35 via Church]

1 hour ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I agree with this assessment. I always see a lot of B68 riders at Church and CI Avenue Southbound, but not as many Northbound, but you do have people Northbound that get on by Cortelyou, I would assume for points North of Church Av.

Either for Church itself, Caton, or for the at 15th st/PPW.

1 hour ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

A good idea would be to explain why you suggest these changes. If people are just looking at maps and are not familiar with what these routes do, that's no good. It's important to understand who the primary ridership base is and how these buses currently run in terms of reliability, etc.  While the B74 is a short route, it gets slammed pretty hard with riders, and keeping it as a short subway feeder is not the worst idea. 

When routes are plagued with delays, the first thing planners look at is making them shorter and not trying to have them serve so many different functions.

Boredom.

1 hour ago, Lawrence St said:

Well these ideas are based on the way how they did the Queens redesign.

The B2/B31 combo is similar to the QT88, where combining both routes would save money and actually increase connectivity.

Much of nobody is xferring between the B2 & the B31....

....and where with that QT88 proposal did you decipher that it would (supposedly) increase connectivity, of all things?

1 hour ago, Lawrence St said:

The new B2 combines both the B2 and B31, so there would be no lost service anywhere. Marine Park would still have service. The only difference is that instead of two routes, you now have one that runs on both lines, via Kings Highway Station. And the freed up resources can now go to increasing frequency on the B2 or somewhere else.

Combine the B2 & the B31, so that the freed up resources could go towards increasing frequency on the B2? What the f*** !?

Even if I consider the "or somewhere else" part of that point, you convey it as if there's so much waste being had in running either (or both) of the two routes, the way they're currently ran.

Edited October 25, 2020 by B35 via Church

[Gotham Bus Co.]

1 hour ago, Lawrence St said:

The new B2 combines both the B2 and B31, so there would be no lost service anywhere. Marine Park would still have service. The only difference is that instead of two routes, you now have one that runs on both lines, via Kings Highway Station. And the freed up resources can now go to increasing frequency on the B2 or somewhere else.

Passengers will perceive it as two routes with the same number. If you want to fully interline them (arrive as B2, leave as B31), go ahead. Otherwise, it's a solution searching for a problem (and not finding one).

[B35 via Church]

3 minutes ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

Passengers will perceive it as two routes with the same number. If you want to fully interline them (arrive as B2, leave as B31), go ahead. Otherwise, it's a solution searching for a problem (and not finding one).

Right, but he's also talking about freeing up resources, which implicates a service cut of some sort.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Just now, B35 via Church said:

Right, but he's also talking about freeing up resources, which implicates a service cut of some sort.

It is as far as I'm concerned, since there is nothing serving Mill Basin and a part of Marine Park.

[checkmatechamp13]

1 hour ago, Lawrence St said:

Well these ideas are based on the way how they did the Queens redesign.

The B2/B31 combo is similar to the QT88, where combining both routes would save money and actually increase connectivity.

That QT88 idea was easily one of the worst ideas to come out of the Queens redesign and shouldn't be used as a basis to make any other proposals.

[B35 via Church]

37 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

It is as far as I'm concerned, since there is nothing serving Mill Basin and a part of Marine Park.

That too, but I'm referring to frequency-wise on the current B2 & B31 themselves/separately.... Where is such this, all this waste? What frequency is being suggested for this concoction of this combined route or whatever.......

32 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

That QT88 idea was easily one of the worst ideas to come out of the Queens redesign and shouldn't be used as a basis to make any other proposals.

At all.

I mean hell, they break up the Q38.... Look around & they're proposing a much worse rendition of that type of route structure with this proposed QT88... So much for creating such these direct routes that they made a bit of a sticking point out of (wanting to accomplish).

Edited October 26, 2020 by B35 via Church

[Via Garibaldi 8]

6 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

That too, but I'm referring to frequency-wise on the current B2 & B31 themselves/separately.

Yeah, there was a time when the B2 ran a lot more frequently.  

[Lex]

3 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

So a couple of ideas I had:

B2: Gerritson Beach to Avenue V via Kings Highway Station

B36: Sea Gate/Neptune Av to Mill Basin via Ocean Avenue. Service between Avenue Z to Nostrand Av discontinued. Service merged with B100.

B64/B74: Merged into new B58 route, Sea Gate to Bay Ridge.

B31/B100: Discontinued.

 

This just reeks of hating short routes.

[B35 via Church]

1 hour ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Yeah, there was a time when the B2 ran a lot more frequently.  

I'm saying there isn't much left to cut on the thing.... This combine the B2/B31 bit solves nothing... Dude's just posting out of his ass.

31 minutes ago, Lex said:

This just reeks of hating short routes.

...and apparently exuding iota of sense, right along with it.

[Lawrence St]

53 minutes ago, Lex said:

This just reeks of hating short routes.

Again, this is to simplify the system and reallocate resources.

2 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

It is as far as I'm concerned, since there is nothing serving Mill Basin and a part of Marine Park.

The B36 merges with the B100, with that short section of Avenue Z to Nostrand being discontinued.

17 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

Dude's just posting out of his ass.

Not at all. If you have constructive criticism, let me know.

 

2 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

That QT88 idea was easily one of the worst ideas to come out of the Queens redesign and shouldn't be used as a basis to make any other proposals.

Thats sort of true. What every redesign needs are neighborhood to subway routes. Instead of having both the B2 and B31 operate independently of one another, they can be combined to form a new route with better frequency. But perhaps your idea of interlining them would work better.

[B35 via Church]

1 hour ago, Lawrence St said:

Again, this is to simplify the system and reallocate resources.

The fallacy here, is this notion that combining routes automatically equates to simplification.... It's not always the case....

....and just what is so damn difficult about two short routes in a bus system feeding into a mutual subway station?

1 hour ago, Lawrence St said:

Not at all. If you have constructive criticism, let me know.

If by "constructive criticism", you mean lie to you about how great this shitposted content of yours is, well that aint happening....

1 hour ago, Lawrence St said:

Thats sort of true. What every redesign needs are neighborhood to subway routes. Instead of having both the B2 and B31 operate independently of one another, they can be combined to form a new route with better frequency. But perhaps your idea of interlining them would work better.

That wasn't Checkmate, that was a completely different poster. Earth to Lawrence St....

Edited October 26, 2020 by B35 via Church

[Future ENY OP]

6 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

So a couple of ideas I had:

B2: Gerritson Beach to Avenue V via Kings Highway Station

B36: Sea Gate/Neptune Av to Mill Basin via Ocean Avenue. Service between Avenue Z to Nostrand Av discontinued. Service merged with B100.

B64/B74: Merged into new B58 route, Sea Gate to Bay Ridge.

B31/B100: Discontinued.

So your telling the folks in Marine Park to screw themselves. From what I’m reading that’s essentially what your doing. Although I haven’t been on the B2 in years. I know one thing is for sure. You have Marine Park residents who utilize this line for Kings Highway  and  service and also seniors that live along the line. 
 

Lastly, there isn’t a market to even split the B2 and B31. Both lines service different purposes and demographics. 

[jaf0519]

4 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

It is as far as I'm concerned, since there is nothing serving Mill Basin and a part of Marine Park.

I think I am reading his plan right, and what I’m getting from it is this:

B2/31 Combo: Buses will start at the first stop on the B31 in Gerritisen Beach, follow the route to the Kings Hwy  then instead of terminating loop around and follow the B2 route to Kings Plaza. Then trips would do the same the other way. The way it would save resources would be instead of having one bus on each route you would have 1 in total. Any potential increase in service would likely be eliminated by the additional runtime of the combination. All streets and stops on both routes would still be served.

B36/100 Combo: He combined these routes too. The entire B100 will still be served just by the extended B36. The only portion that would lose service would between Ave Z/Ocean Ave and the current B36 terminal since it would continue up Ocean to connect to the current B100. Mill Basin and Marine Park would still have all their service at B100 stops.

[Lex]

15 minutes ago, Future ENY OP said:

So your telling the folks in Marine Park to screw themselves. From what I’m reading that’s essentially what your doing. Although I haven’t been on the B2 in years. I know one thing is for sure. You have Marine Park residents who utilize this line for Kings Highway  and  service and also seniors that live along the line. 
 

Lastly, there isn’t a market to even split the B2 and B31. Both lines service different purposes and demographics. 

I think that was to combine the B2 and B31, not split them.

[jaf0519]

4 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

That QT88 idea was easily one of the worst ideas to come out of the Queens redesign and shouldn't be used as a basis to make any other proposals.

I personally think the QT88 was one of the better proposals, economically. The Woodhaven portion of the Q11/21 have way more ridership and I think that the QT88 is the most efficient (albeit not convenient) ways to serve both parts of Cross Bay. It’s much better than the Q38 simply because there is a purpose connecting both sides of Cross Bay. There is no purpose to connect Corona-Otis Ave to Rego Park-110 St other then outdated routing combinations.

[Lawrence St]

33 minutes ago, jaf0519 said:

I think I am reading his plan right, and what I’m getting from it is this:

B2/31 Combo: Buses will start at the first stop on the B31 in Gerritisen Beach, follow the route to the Kings Hwy  then instead of terminating loop around and follow the B2 route to Kings Plaza. Then trips would do the same the other way. The way it would save resources would be instead of having one bus on each route you would have 1 in total. Any potential increase in service would likely be eliminated by the additional runtime of the combination. All streets and stops on both routes would still be served.

B36/100 Combo: He combined these routes too. The entire B100 will still be served just by the extended B36. The only portion that would lose service would between Ave Z/Ocean Ave and the current B36 terminal since it would continue up Ocean to connect to the current B100. Mill Basin and Marine Park would still have all their service at B100 stops.

Bingo.

[Future ENY OP]

12 minutes ago, Lex said:

I think that was to combine the B2 and B31, not split them.

But that combination doesn't make sense tho.. In this case Marine Park loses service. and with the B36/B100 thing.... I'm lost. Completely lost.

 

30 minutes ago, jaf0519 said:

B36/100 Combo: He combined these routes too. The entire B100 will still be served just by the extended B36. The only portion that would lose service would between Ave Z/Ocean Ave and the current B36 terminal since it would continue up Ocean to connect to the current B100. Mill Basin and Marine Park would still have all their service at B100 stops.

The B36/B100 don't even connect at all. So I'm a bit confused with this. This combination is far worse than the B40/B78 combo.