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Queens Bus Redesign Discussion Thread


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28 minutes ago, 7LineFan said:

I was told to make comments online as well but the guy at my table (the closest one in your second photo, although I was in a different session) actually had a pen and pad and was writing suggestions down--more broad suggestions rather than specific, but he filled out a whole page between the time that I arrived and the time that I left. I must not have had the same experiences you did because I felt the atmosphere at my table was generally productive.

Everyone I talked to said the same thing: they were this radical in the redesign on purpose so that they would get pushback and get the public to actually come out to these things. Standard negotiating tactics.

Actually I wasn’t there. A lot of people from my angry group are pissed and went. Apparently each table was told something different. At one table, they sent express bus riders to a separate room. At another table, they were told that express buses wouldn’t be discussed. Talk about a lack of consistency. A disabled person had such a hard time getting in there that they gave up and left.

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I get the idea of not doing like Los Angeles and having practically every bus route run two hours from one side of the county to the other, but with Bk & Q being on the same landmass, it is astonishing to me how hard it is to travel across that jagged borough/county line - let alone on a single fare.

There really should be some BQ SBS or limited buses - like LA’s old 500-series bus routes (cross-county expresses that avoid DTLA) - considered as part of these “we call them redesigns but they’re really nothing but service cuts and reroutes” redesigns but with fewer stops than SBS routes and regular coaches instead of the express bus coaches.

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1 minute ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Actually I wasn’t there. A lot of people from my angry group are pissed and went. Apparently each table was told something different. At one table, they sent express bus riders to a separate room. At another table, they were told that express buses wouldn’t be discussed. Talk about a lack of consistency. A disabled person had such a hard time getting in there that they gave up and left.

My table did wind up talking about the express buses a little but but it did not dominate the discussion. There was a guy in another room standing in front of two boards with both the express bus map and the local bus map and apparently he was directly involved in the Queens redesign, but I didn't go over and speak to him specifically.

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2 minutes ago, 7LineFan said:

My table did wind up talking about the express buses a little but but it did not dominate the discussion. There was a guy in another room standing in front of two boards with both the express bus map and the local bus map and apparently he was directly involved in the Queens redesign, but I didn't go over and speak to him specifically.

What did he look like? Could’ve been Mark Holmes. We’ve “chatted” a few times now. Lol We were talking about the Bronx routes in the November meeting. Came over and shook my hand at the Riverdale Town Hall meeting since we got such a huge turnout because we spread the word so quickly. I have met most of the planners, so not too many people I don’t know.

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8
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1 minute ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

What did he look like? Could’ve been Mark Holmes. We’ve “chatted” a few times now. Lol We were talking about the Bronx routes in the November meeting. Came over and shook my hand at the Riverdale Town Hall meeting since we got such a huge turnout because we spread the word so quickly. I have met most of the planners, so not too many people I don’t know.

Guy's name is Ryan, not Mark. The other dude who worked on the Queens redesign, the one who I didn't speak to, is named Julian.

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7 minutes ago, 7LineFan said:

Guy's name is Ryan, not Mark. The other dude who worked on the Queens redesign, the one who I didn't speak to, is named Julian.

Ok. There’s a lot of them. I have dealt mainly with the senior planners, but I have met some of the other planners as well. Mark was there as well tonight to answer questions, hence my question.

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8
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1 hour ago, Deucey said:

I get the idea of not doing like Los Angeles and having practically every bus route run two hours from one side of the county to the other, but with Bk & Q being on the same landmass, it is astonishing to me how hard it is to travel across that jagged borough/county line - let alone on a single fare.

There really should be some BQ SBS or limited buses - like LA’s old 500-series bus routes (cross-county expresses that avoid DTLA) - considered as part of these “we call them redesigns but they’re really nothing but service cuts and reroutes” redesigns but with fewer stops than SBS routes and regular coaches instead of the express bus coaches.

It's hard to get between the two jagged lines because the roads are a f**king mess out there. I'd pray for anyone willing to take a bus route slogging it via the BQE, and that's one of the faster roads, allegedly. Los Angeles at least has its large supergrid of arterials and highways to make that particular issue irrelevant.

The best thing would be to ignore the roads entirely and build connections like

  • the (M) from Metropolitan Village to Jackson Heights (alternatively, the RX)
  • the Rockaway Beach Branch (though a lower priority)
  • some type of at least partially grade separated train from Jamaica to Flushing (and beyond)
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13 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

You make it sound like it’s such an egregious error. The span is being cut from 22 to 17 hours, so the point is still the same about it affecting those with late night jobs. Now it doesn’t run between 3 and 5 AM. Now service will likely stop before midnight. The only justification should be they have data that shows no one rides the bus after midnight. Most overnight routes only carry a few passengers anyway. What are those late night workers supposed to do? They most likely have low paying jobs and can’t afford Uber. 

As discussed, the current span is about 19.5 hours, not 22 hours. The other thing is that the QT1 will operate 24/7 along 21st Street south of 30th Avenue, and the QT78 will operate 24/7 along 36th Avenue (and I do agree that the QT1 should stop at 36th Avenue). 

The route she was likely thinking of was the Q100, which does operate 24/7 along 31st Street. The QT1 & QT79 cover different portions of the Q100 and operate overnight. For the portion between 21st Street & 30th Avenue and 31st Street & 20th Avenue, the QT79 is available on 31st Street, half a mile away (and again, this is overnight and this applies to many areas of the city. If I'm not mistaken, you even said the MTA should consider consolidating some overnight routes and having double the spacing but double the frequency)

The Q101 not going into Manhattan is partially the result of people at the Astoria workshop in the Spring advocating for better connections between Sunnyside and Astoria and asking for a route over the 39th Street bridge crossing the Sunnyside Yard. Between that and the congestion at Queens Plaza, I can see why that was done. 

13 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

He acts like he never makes a mistake. Loves nitpicking. It’s annoying.

If I'm going to create a document that I'm expecting people to put their signature on, you better believe I'm going to double-check for accuracy (and yes this applies to the MTA as well. You better believe I sent them emails whenever I spot an error in a document or on their website).

1 hour ago, 7LineFan said:

I was told to make comments online as well but the guy at my table (the closest one in your second photo, although I was in a different session) actually had a pen and pad and was writing suggestions down--more broad suggestions rather than specific, but he filled out a whole page between the time that I arrived and the time that I left. I must not have had the same experiences you did because I felt the atmosphere at my table was generally productive.

Everyone I talked to said the same thing: they were this radical in the redesign on purpose so that they would get pushback and get the public to actually come out to these things. Standard negotiating tactics.

I felt the one in Ridgewood was pretty productive. For us, both the planner at the table with the group and the planner at the board took both general and route-specific comments. 

Edited by checkmatechamp13
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28 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

As discussed, the current span is about 19.5 hours, not 22 hours. The other thing is that the QT1 will operate 24/7 along 21st Street south of 30th Avenue, and the QT78 will operate 24/7 along 36th Avenue (and I do agree that the QT1 should stop at 36th Avenue). 

The route she was likely thinking of was the Q100, which does operate 24/7 along 31st Street. The QT1 & QT79 cover different portions of the Q100 and operate overnight. For the portion between 21st Street & 30th Avenue and 31st Street & 20th Avenue, the QT79 is available on 31st Street, half a mile away (and again, this is overnight and this applies to many areas of the city. If I'm not mistaken, you even said the MTA should consider consolidating some overnight routes and having double the spacing but double the frequency)

The Q101 not going into Manhattan is partially the result of people at the Astoria workshop in the Spring advocating for better connections between Sunnyside and Astoria and asking for a route over the 39th Street bridge crossing the Sunnyside Yard. Between that and the congestion at Queens Plaza, I can see why that was done. 

If I'm going to create a document that I'm expecting people to put their signature on, you better believe I'm going to double-check for accuracy (and yes this applies to the MTA as well. You better believe I sent them emails whenever I spot an error in a document or on their website).

I felt the one in Ridgewood was pretty productive. For us, both the planner at the table with the group and the planner at the board took both general and route-specific comments. 

Even if it’s 19.5 hours, the proposed route will not operate for seven hours. If the bus will now stop at 11 PM, tell the guy whose shift ends at midnight, this change is unimportant. 

And as I told you, a few people requesting a route between Sunnyside and Astoria (which may very well be needed) doesn’t mean you severely disrupt existing travel patterns for many. Starting with a blank slate is fine for a newly developing community, but not where people have made decisions on where to live and where to work years ago. You can’t just ignore that. 

Maybe, those going to Manhattan during midday are not that many and an extra transfer wouldn’t be that bad, but that is not true for rush hours where people depend on the bus and prefer not to ride a crush loaded subway. And to say, they can’t run the service because of traffic congestion is ridiculous. By that standard any route that operates on a congested street should be discontinued. And to say that buses operate better without cars, so that’s what we need on all major corridors (as Cipriano stated) is also an overly simplistic and ridiculous. You just can’t get rid of cars to help bus passengers without looking at the ramifications to traffic as if only bus passengers matter and screw everyone else. 

I was talking about alternate routes operating overnight with more frequent headways, but that assumed the bus stop spacing would remain the same. Together with widening the bus stop spacing and eliminating half the routes, the walk becomes too great in most cases even for overnight. 

As far as double checking for accuracy, why don’t you tell that to the MTA when they talk about Dimars Blvd. As far as other mistakes, they aren’t paying me to do their proof reading so why should I? You can do it for free if you want to. You can’t compare one person making a mistake to an entire department not catching obvious errors. To me it says they don’t really know the neighborhoods or the bus routes they are changing. 

Of course, the MTA would respond it’s only a draft, so errors are expected. But what about staff summaries to the Board. Are poor analyses acceptable there to? Like in 2010 when they told Union Street riders they didn’t need the B71 because they could walk to the B65 a half mile away? As if it made sense to walk a half mile one way and another half mile back to Union Street when your bus trip was only a mile to begin with. Or what about their staff summary on the savings by converting the B1 to articulated buses that doesn’t mention the extra non revenue mileage by running the buses from Gleason instead of Ulmer Park, where it will probably go since Ulmer isn’t equipped for articulated buses, or the 10 percent differential that artic drivers receive. 

The MTA makes much greater mistakes the person who started that petition. But MTA mistakes are okay? Right? 

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2 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

I was talking about alternate routes operating overnight with more frequent headways, but that assumed the bus stop spacing would remain the same. Together with widening the bus stop spacing and eliminating half the routes, the walk becomes too great in most cases even for overnight. 

Doesn't the MTA have "request a stop" after 10PM?

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The issue that I see a lot of people aren’t addressing is that no one likes change. You can see it throughout this forum. Yeah the plan is far from perfect but at the same time no one is trying to see if the new plan is providing something for people traveling in queens. Everyone wants to keep things the way they are, a form of NIMBYism which plagues so many people. 
 

the redesign seems like it treats Queens in two half’s, East and West. The west side has tons of subway access thus why there seems to be more local routes going through it than the East where many routes are worked to travel to subway stations or to places such as BK. I think the hard hit place was the rockaways. Taking the Q53 out was terrible because both that and the Q52 are the main connections to the island. 

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10 hours ago, Deucey said:

I get the idea of not doing like Los Angeles and having practically every bus route run two hours from one side of the county to the other, but with Bk & Q being on the same landmass, it is astonishing to me how hard it is to travel across that jagged borough/county line - let alone on a single fare.

There really should be some BQ SBS or limited buses - like LA’s old 500-series bus routes (cross-county expresses that avoid DTLA) - considered as part of these “we call them redesigns but they’re really nothing but service cuts and reroutes” redesigns but with fewer stops than SBS routes and regular coaches instead of the express bus coaches.

They’re eliminating part of the B15 to make way for a SBS queens bus that’ll run from Jamaica to Brownsville, there’s others such as Flushing to Ridgewood, Astoria to Downtown Brooklyn and others. You have to look at the color codes on the draft plan. It’s no use reading the map traditionally. 

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@BrooklynBus By that logic, trips that are difficult to make today should remain difficult because "people should've known what service was available when they moved there".

Yes, some people moved to an area based on a route being there and traveling a certain way, but some of those people may have moved away or changed jobs. Sometimes jobs move locations and it's a choice between dealing with a longer commute and finding a different job (or in my case, I had a choice between a promotion in Long Island City or staying at a lower level on Staten Island...which do you think I chose?)

And I'm not going to sign a petition and attach my name to something with errors. That's my choice and you can feel free to make a different one. If I'm going to attach my name to something (as opposed to generally supporting it) then it better be error-free. It doesn't mean I agree with the blatant errors the MTA makes.

For the B71, you are making the assumption that every single B71 passenger starts and ends their trip directly on that route. Some may live and/or have their destination halfway between the B71 and the B61 (or B71 and B65). Or you are transferring to a connecting north-south route. (And yes, I do agree with you that the B71 needs to be restored, and ideally extended into Lower Manhattan).

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I signed the petition last night for the Q69 just because a need to get some sort of awareness to Aravelle, BUT Sandi, who wrote the petition, is flat out wrong in saying the Q69 runs 24-hour service:

This is the exact wording:

"The Q69 which connects Queensbough South to Jackson Heights will become a Limited Stop Bus route, and will no longer run 24 hours. This will force riders to walk somewhere between 5-10 street blocks to get to the next stop. This route is widely used by shoppers carrying grocery bags, students with heavy loads, mothers with strollers, as well as shift workers. Suggestion: keep the local stops, and continue with 24 hour service. "

I wrote in my comment that the frequencies and cut service-hours were bad, but then I wrote that Sandi better get the facts straight first. I wrote that the Q69 has never had 24-hour service in the first place.

 

What happened this morning? My comment isn't there anymore.

 

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42 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

@BrooklynBus By that logic, trips that are difficult to make today should remain difficult because "people should've known what service was available when they moved there".

Yes, some people moved to an area based on a route being there and traveling a certain way, but some of those people may have moved away or changed jobs. Sometimes jobs move locations and it's a choice between dealing with a longer commute and finding a different job (or in my case, I had a choice between a promotion in Long Island City or staying at a lower level on Staten Island...which do you think I chose?)

And I'm not going to sign a petition and attach my name to something with errors. That's my choice and you can feel free to make a different one. If I'm going to attach my name to something (as opposed to generally supporting it) then it better be error-free. It doesn't mean I agree with the blatant errors the MTA makes.

For the B71, you are making the assumption that every single B71 passenger starts and ends their trip directly on that route. Some may live and/or have their destination halfway between the B71 and the B61 (or B71 and B65). Or you are transferring to a connecting north-south route. (And yes, I do agree with you that the B71 needs to be restored, and ideally extended into Lower Manhattan).

Please don't change what I wrote. I never said that trips that are difficult today, should remain difficult. It's all about trade offs. You need to help more than you hurt and I don't believe the MTA plan accomplishes that. Providing new connections should be made but not by the expense of inconveniencing many. A good plan can provide these new connections with minimal inconvenience to existing riders. You can't do that when you "start with a blank slate." That discounts existing travel patterns and you risk unnecessarily hurting many. That's what this plan does,

Of course you are free not to sign.

As far as the B71, again don't change what I wrote. I wasn't describing the trips of all riders. Sure, there are some who live midway for whom the B65 was a choice. But because of better B65 headways, those riders were probably using the B65 anyway. When you claim there is an alternative for ALL B71 riders as the MTA did, you don't list an alternative that is unrealistic for some riders. If you are honest, you state how many riders will not have an alternative and what they are supposed to do or you don't eliminate the route in the first place. 

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1 hour ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

...And I'm not going to sign a petition and attach my name to something with errors. That's my choice and you can feel free to make a different one. If I'm going to attach my name to something (as opposed to generally supporting it) then it better be error-free. It doesn't mean I agree with the blatant errors the MTA makes.

That correlation made no sense to me either; the "errors" the MTA made in this plan is exponentially more of an importance than any "error" (I believe it to be an embellishment, but whatever) in this, or any other petition.... Nobody's implicating otherwise.... You wanna sign the petition, go right on ahead... Have a happy.

1 hour ago, GojiMet86 said:

I wrote in my comment that the frequencies and cut service-hours were bad, but then I wrote that Sandi better get the facts straight first. I wrote that the Q69 has never had 24-hour service in the first place.

 

What happened this morning? My comment isn't there anymore.

IDK, but that's very telling & I'm not at all surprised.... You're trying to innocently help this person, but then removes your comment that pointed out a fact? At that point, it's f*** you - Even if I concur with your general sentiment.

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11 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

It's hard to get between the two jagged lines because the roads are a f**king mess out there. I'd pray for anyone willing to take a bus route slogging it via the BQE, and that's one of the faster roads, allegedly. Los Angeles at least has its large supergrid of arterials and highways to make that particular issue irrelevant.

The best thing would be to ignore the roads entirely and build connections like

  • the (M) from Metropolitan Village to Jackson Heights (alternatively, the RX)
  • the Rockaway Beach Branch (though a lower priority)
  • some type of at least partially grade separated train from Jamaica to Flushing (and beyond)

Yeah, that all goes back to the fact that the NYC subway system is too/very Manhattan-centric & NYC's highway network is, for lack of a better term, shit......

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I finally figure out what's wrong with this redesign. There's no paper like diagram to help explain what is going on. This is the Governor and Mayor's fault for abandoning paper.

Found out that it's merely Beach 21st that is closed and all buses are travelling NORTH on Beach 19th to Mott and Central, SOUTH on Beach 20th to Seagirt in the Rockaways.

Maybe they should cut the pages from 400 to 40. The MTA Docs read like a University Professor's Thesis.

Edited by NY1635
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5 hours ago, Brillant93 said:

They’re eliminating part of the B15 to make way for a SBS queens bus that’ll run from Jamaica to Brownsville, there’s others such as Flushing to Ridgewood, Astoria to Downtown Brooklyn and others. You have to look at the color codes on the draft plan. It’s no use reading the map traditionally. 

The B-15 is for Airport Workers who live in Brooklyn. The Q-3 is for Airport Workers living in South East Queens.

The problem with JFK is that the Q6 and Q7 are also for JFK Airport Workers, making the 3 and 15 look redundant. To review

B-15: JFK Airport workers living in Brooklyn

Q-3: JFK Airport Workers living on Farmers Blvd

Q-6/7: Cargo Airport Workers living on Rockaway and Sutphin

The Old N-91: Airport Workers living in Nassau.

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1 hour ago, NY1635 said:

I finally figure out what's wrong with this redesign. There's no paper like diagram to help explain what is going on. This is the Governor and Mayor's fault for abandoning paper.

Found out that it's merely Beach 21st that is closed and all buses are travelling NORTH on Beach 19th to Mott and Central, SOUTH on Beach 20th to Seagirt in the Rockaways.

Maybe they should cut the pages from 400 to 40. The MTA Docs read like a University Professor's Thesis.

That ain't the problem, chief.

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1 minute ago, Cait Sith said:

That ain't the problem, chief.

It's a big problem because the state and city are cutting down on paper costs by switching to all digital print and e-kiosk.

In short, the MTA is broke because it cut too many corners.

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