Queens Bus Redesign Discussion Thread

[B35 via Church]

2 minutes ago, N6 Limited said:

He said he can take the Q47 or the Q29 to the , which would indicate he'd be able to take the QT86 to Forest Hills.

He prioritizes the , and with good reason....

Why should he have to go out of his way on both ends of his trip, just because you have high hopes for this plan?

[BrooklynBus]

Another bad review.

https://www.ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/news/2020/01/25/queens-residents-erupt-in-anger-over-mta-bus-redesign-plan

[B35 via Church]

18 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

Another bad review.

https://www.ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/news/2020/01/25/queens-residents-erupt-in-anger-over-mta-bus-redesign-plan

"A redesign is nothing more than a cut to service by another name"

I'd have been more specific; "these MTA redesigns are nothing more than cuts to service by another name".... Regardless, the takeaway from this (when it comes to Jackson Heights) is that they value the feeder-based network over a grid-based one.... That is actually useful feedback.

Edited January 25, 2020 by B35 via Church

[BrooklynBus]

4 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

"A redesign is nothing more than a cut to service by another name"

I'd have been more specific; "these MTA redesigns are nothing more than cuts to service by another name".... Regardless, the takeaway from this (when it comes to Jackson Heights) is that they value the feeder-based network over a grid-based one.... That is actually useful feedback.

You actually need both. Direct feeder service is mostly needed in peak hours. A grid system minimizes the need for more than two buses at all times. I didn't see anything about special peak hour routes to subways which I think would be useful for Queens. Of course I agree with your comment about it being a cut, although they are saying cost neutral. I would love to see the before and after bus hours which they don't provide and yet they claim transparency.

[B35 via Church]

2 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

You actually need both. Direct feeder service is mostly needed in peak hours. A grid system minimizes the need for more than two buses at all times. I didn't see anything about special peak hour routes to subways which I think would be useful for Queens. Of course I agree with your comment about it being a cut, although they are saying cost neutral. I would love to see the before and after bus hours which they don't provide and yet they claim transparency.

Perhaps, but they are making it known (in so many words) that they want no parts of a grid system.... I'm not going to argue against the very people that largely, directly benefit from the way the network is currently laid-out in the area.... As far as the final draft or whatever, I'm not expecting any major changes to the routings and/or the service levels of these routes.... Getting rid of a route like the Q53 to piecemeal service in its place, tells me all I need to know about this plan.....

[BrooklynBus]

52 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

Perhaps, but they are making it known (in so many words) that they want no parts of a grid system.... I'm not going to argue against the very people that largely, directly benefit from the way the network is currently laid-out in the area.... As far as the final draft or whatever, I'm not expecting any major changes to the routings and/or the service levels of these routes.... Getting rid of a route like the Q53 to piecemeal service in its place, tells me all I need to know about this plan.....

I think they are opposing the grid system because the MTA is replacing their feeder service with a grid system to make the routes simpler which is not what they really need. They need a functional system, not a simple one. As I wrote in my Brooklyn Bus Plan, they are relying too much on formulas instead of looking at individual situations because it is much more work. Having worked for the MTA for so many years I know how they try to take the easy route, rather than the right route so they can do less work. 

[Future ENY OP]

2 hours ago, azspeedbullet said:

 

 

the mini buses is also used by NYC DOT, they have offices at 3030 too. Also at 3030 on the 5th floor was some college office, forgot the name but i remember seeing signs all over the place

 

 

 

Yes. That is correct. Thanks for pointing that out. 

[B35 via Church]

4 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

I think they are opposing the grid system because the MTA is replacing their feeder service with a grid system to make the routes simpler which is not what they really need. They need a functional system, not a simple one. As I wrote in my Brooklyn Bus Plan, they are relying too much on formulas instead of looking at individual situations because it is much more work. Having worked for the MTA for so many years I know how they try to take the easy route, rather than the right route so they can do less work. 

That's just it - I don't think they (Jackson Hgts. patrons) view the grid system as simple.... A planner would view a grid system as such, but if you have as many riders up there placing that high a value on getting to/from 74th, anything that involves turning a route (or "their" route) away from that specific destination, is complicating/exacerbating matters.....

I don't doubt the MTA's use of formulas are as prevalent because they want to cut down on man hours & what not, but I'm also of the belief that they rely on them, simply because they are ignorant - Which is what irks me when they (claim to) want feedback...... They don't give enough of a damn to be bothered with individual solutions....

I mean honestly, if you're getting feedback & are still f***ing things up, well at that point, you're either just malicious/self-serving, or simply that obtuse....

[BrooklynBus]

1 minute ago, B35 via Church said:

That's just it - I don't think they (Jackson Hgts. patrons) view the grid system as simple.... A planner would view a grid system as such, but if you have as many riders up there placing that high a value on getting to/from 74th, anything that involves turning a route (or "their" route) away from that specific destination, is complicating/exacerbating matters.....

I don't doubt the MTA's use of formulas are as prevalent because they want to cut down on man hours & what not, but I'm also of the belief that they rely on them, simply because they are ignorant - Which is what irks me when they (claim to) want feedback...... They don't give enough of a damn to be bothered with individual solutions....

I mean honestly, if you're getting feedback & are still f***ing things up, well at that point, you're either just malicious/self-serving, or simply that obtuse....

They have some very competent people who understand the subway system, but no one with the knowledge we both have about the bus system. Sure they have individuals who are very familiar with their small part of the system they deal with everyday, but no one with a broad knowledge. 

When I spoke to Mark Holmes around Thanksgiving, the person responsible for this mess, I told him if he comes out with a good plan, there will be little opposition. (My 1978 plan had no opposition.  Only one written complaint.) if it is a bad plan, there will be loads of opposition. I sent him an email last week and asked him if he remembers what I said and I bccd Byford. No response from Holmes, but Byford answered me although the email wasn’t even addressed to him. 

[Cain]

I wonder if TWU Local 100 knows that the Queens Redesign is a huge service cut to local and express bus service throughout the borough. Every line is affected, as far as I can see. I am surprised they are not making a bigger stink of it as I would assume service cuts would also mean less work for bus operators.

[Uncle Floyd Fan]

16 minutes ago, Cain said:

I wonder if TWU Local 100 knows that the Queens Redesign is a huge service cut to local and express bus service throughout the borough.

I'd think they're aware. The leader of ATU-1056 in Bayside spoke of his concerns in this article:

https://www.qchron.com/editions/central/bus-drivers-union-has-redesign-concerns/article_d1b01ede-3979-11ea-bbf6-cbe5c1d8a77a.html

An open house in Oct 2019 was held right in the union hall:

https://qns.com/story/2019/10/11/eastern-queens-residents-provide-input-on-how-to-modernize-buses-at-oakland-gardens-meeting/

The bigger question is how would the union and commuters fight the pending reduction in service (through re-design) as Cuomo is the DNC governor? Would the GOP put someone up as a transit-friendly candidate? Would a faction on the left develop to fight this? All of this seems unlikely. The best we can probably do is write to our elected officials and 'hope for the best'.

[N6 Limited]

27 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

They have some very competent people who understand the subway system, but no one with the knowledge we both have about the bus system. Sure they have individuals who are very familiar with their small part of the system they deal with everyday, but no one with a broad knowledge. 

When I spoke to Mark Holmes around Thanksgiving, the person responsible for this mess, I told him if he comes out with a good plan, there will be little opposition. (My 1978 plan had no opposition.  Only one written complaint.) if it is a bad plan, there will be loads of opposition. I sent him an email last week and asked him if he remembers what I said and I bccd Byford. No response from Holmes, but Byford answered me although the email wasn’t even addressed to him. 

In the age of social media there is always opposition/outrage, which can spread quickly. 

[BrooklynBus]

7 minutes ago, N6 Limited said:

In the age of social media there is always opposition/outrage, which can spread quickly. 

Somebody truth to that but doesn’t explain so much outrage in so many neighborhoods. If there were only a few problems with the plan, the outrage would be localized in a few neighborhoods, not at least 7 neighborhoods. As more neighborhoods become aware of the plan, the more the outrage will spread. 

As I said, a good plan has little opposition. What I didn’t say before was that although there was only one written opposition to my plan, the MTA made several changes before it was implemented and each of their changes was opposed and failed.

One was to have the B11 run to Canarsie when the community wanted Brooklyn College. Two years later the route was shortened to Brooklyn College.

They also insisted the B74 and B36 route be altered to run one way on Mermaid and the other on Surf for several blocks west of Stillwell. Five hundred people protested in the street (without social media). That change was undone three months later. So while no one had problems with my plan, they did when the MTA screwed with it. 

The point still is with or without social media, there will be little opposition to a good plan and much opposition to a bad plan. 

[EastFlatbushLarry]

a lazy person/lazy people/a lazy organization will always work twice as hard. where has there been any evidence provided that this "first draft" of the Queens network redesign is receiving rave reviews? half the boro doesn't seem to have an idea of what, if any, changes are on the horizon. they tactically shut out eastern Queens neighborhoods by not planning to hold meetings discussing their concepts. what horses ass is this narrative falling from? 

Edited January 26, 2020 by EastFlatbushLarry

[EastFlatbushLarry]

59 minutes ago, N6 Limited said:

In the age of social media there is always opposition/outrage, which can spread quickly. 

that doesn't make said opposition/outrage instantly invalid. that doesn't mean people's opinions/concerns are to be dismissed or ignored, especially if they can prove real life experience(s) proving hardship or inconvenience on a much larger scale than just themselves

[BrooklynBus]

30 minutes ago, EastFlatbushLarry said:

that doesn't make said opposition/outrage instantly invalid. that doesn't mean people's opinions/concerns are to be dismissed or ignored, especially if they can prove real life experience(s) proving hardship or inconvenience on a much larger scale than just themselves

And as I stated, if the outrage was minimal, it would be localized and not in so many neighborhoods. The fact that every single Queens council people came together to denounce the plan is very telling. 

[N6 Limited]

37 minutes ago, EastFlatbushLarry said:

a lazy person/lazy people/a lazy organization will always work twice as hard. where has there been any evidence provided that this "first draft" of the Queens network redesign is receiving rave reviews? half the boro doesn't seem to have an idea of what, if any, changes are on the horizon. they tactically shut out eastern Queens neighborhoods by not planning to hold meetings discussing their concepts. what horses ass is this narrative falling from? 

If the meeting is for bus riders, and all buses in Eastern Queens go to Flushing and Jamaica, what exactly is the problem?

[N6 Limited]

5 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

He prioritizes the , and with good reason....

Why should he have to go out of his way on both ends of his trip, just because you have high hopes for this plan?

My curiosity is based on logic.  Indicating that a new commute would take up to 90 mins, when one can take a 10 min train ride after a 10 min bus ride? Going "out of the way" to save up to 60 mins (he would have to walk after all) seems reasonable.

[FamousNYLover]

I tried stop request on Q72 bus after 10:30pm, but b/o refused.

 

Also QT10 going up and down 82nd Street and 92nd St doesn't make any sense since it's one way southbound. Is they trying to cause accident for sending buses in oncoming traffic.

[B35 via Church]

6 hours ago, N6 Limited said:

My curiosity is based on logic.  Indicating that a new commute would take up to 90 mins, when one can take a 10 min train ride after a 10 min bus ride? Going "out of the way" to save up to 60 mins (he would have to walk after all) seems reasonable.

You are trying to get him to be on board with this plan & nothing more... Stating that "he would have to walk after all", is a flippant response to the increased amount of walking & backtracking he'd have to put up with... Also, this notion that the , on average, is actually a 10 min. commute between those 2 points is a bit disingenuous.... Don't know how many times on here alone, where someone is making a point out of how much of a drag the QB express is & has been..... Again, if the guy prioritizes the , I'm not going to try to convince him that switching to another subway line would suit him better - even if it'll (supposedly) save him that much time....

8 hours ago, EastFlatbushLarry said:

that doesn't make said opposition/outrage instantly invalid. that doesn't mean people's opinions/concerns are to be dismissed or ignored, especially if they can prove real life experience(s) proving hardship or inconvenience on a much larger scale than just themselves

That is the problem I have with a good portion of his posts regarding this plan... No one should have to be on board with what this plan offers, at all costs.... Most, if not everyone, are going to compare their current commute to whatever (if any) changes they'll have to make, if this plan remains as is & come to fruition..... If it ends up being beneficial, great.... If it ends up being detrimental, they have every right to raise a fuss..... I'm of the belief that the number of riders that are making valid complaints & are being reasonable with how much worse their commutes would be, greatly outnumber the contrarians that are doing so just for the sake of it & are embellishing how much worse things would end up being for them....

No redesign is going to benefit all of these commuters that stand to be affected by it & to want to nullify, or have people go through hell & high water to "make" it work for them, is quite off-putting & disgusting..... I'd argue that is the very position & disposition the MTA wants riders to have - as it absolves them from their incompetencies....

 

[LTA1992]

I hear about the plan being cost neutral, look at the increases in late night service, then wonder if that's where the extra daytime frequency went.

[B35 via Church]

11 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

They have some very competent people who understand the subway system, but no one with the knowledge we both have about the bus system. Sure they have individuals who are very familiar with their small part of the system they deal with everyday, but no one with a broad knowledge. 

When I spoke to Mark Holmes around Thanksgiving, the person responsible for this mess, I told him if he comes out with a good plan, there will be little opposition. (My 1978 plan had no opposition.  Only one written complaint.) if it is a bad plan, there will be loads of opposition. I sent him an email last week and asked him if he remembers what I said and I bccd Byford. No response from Holmes, but Byford answered me although the email wasn’t even addressed to him. 

I would say that's by design; they don't want to invest in the bus system to the tune they're investing in the subway system (and I'm not necessarily talking monetarily).... But yeah, something else this agency is lacking (among other things) is a public figure that is as remotely personable as Byford was.... You'll have those that say that MTA is making so much strides in the PR department, but I'm not really seeing it from a human standpoint..... Digitally, yeah, MTA twitter is one avenue, but being frank, sometimes you want to put a face to a name too.....

As to the e-mail correspondence you're referencing, you would think it'd be the other way around (Byford, knowing he's about to resign, wanting much of nothing to do with anything MTA related, and Holmes defending himself to no end)..... I understand not going above your superiors, but let me tell you something, you see how vociferous I am on these forums.... My siblings would say I'm actually worse in person - I say that to say, if I'm the person responsible for drumming up (the specifics of) a redesign, you're going to see me all over the place (kind of like Byford was).... I have no problem weighing the good with the bad....

Ever since I started hearing about him, it's something about this Holmes guy that's not quite sitting right with me....

9 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

Somebody truth to that but doesn’t explain so much outrage in so many neighborhoods. If there were only a few problems with the plan, the outrage would be localized in a few neighborhoods, not at least 7 neighborhoods. As more neighborhoods become aware of the plan, the more the outrage will spread.

The point still is with or without social media, there will be little opposition to a good plan and much opposition to a bad plan. 

IDC if we're in the age of the dinosaurs or the information age.... The simple deduction to make from this, is that so many people can't be wrong.... I'm going to continue to parrot this notion - The fact that this much of Queens is this vocal regarding public transportation matters, to me, speaks volumes.....

8 hours ago, EastFlatbushLarry said:

a lazy person/lazy people/a lazy organization will always work twice as hard. where has there been any evidence provided that this "first draft" of the Queens network redesign is receiving rave reviews? half the boro doesn't seem to have an idea of what, if any, changes are on the horizon. they tactically shut out eastern Queens neighborhoods by not planning to hold meetings discussing their concepts. what horses ass is this narrative falling from? 

Mister Ed's.

[BrooklynBus]

4 hours ago, FamousNYLover said:

I tried stop request on Q72 bus after 10:30pm, but b/o refused.

Bus driver has the option of refusing request a stop if he deems the location you are choosing is not safe, but he should let you off at the first safe location rather than waiting for the next bus stop unless that is the first safe location.

[Interested Rider]

Pardon me for repeating myself, I posted on a thread here a couple of weeks ago that the mayor wants a complete audit of the MTA before he will release any more money to the agency.  This sent the penny pinchers into a panic which resulted in the blob that is called the Queens redesign. In my readings here and in oter places, I see that many of my colleagues have picked  up on this fact.  It is my opinion that the purpose of releasing the changes now was to provide cover for the local politicians who would garner press coverage and yet do nothing to claim after this garbage is implemented and they are re-elected to say that they tried but yet in reality did absolutedly nothing to help the MTA.

For those who are hoping that Republicans will come to the rescue, it reminds me of the announcement made by Chaim Deutsch that he was running for congress this past week. He is asking that republicans and Independents should register (or re-register) as members of the Democratic Party to help defeat the radicals. Most of the Republicans in this city are leaving or dying off and it is the same thing in other parts of the state. As the numbers decrease, it becomes harder and harder to get elected as not only it is the money issue, it is the support of  our media being the unabashed cheer leaders for the Democratic Party,  The problem is that the ones that vote in primaries  are the ones commited to these policies that got us into trouble in the first  place.. When 75 -80% or more of the registered party members do not vote in the primary, the candidates chosen will not reflect the views of the majority, unless the number of voters in a Democratic primary starts reaching a reasonable figure of 50-60% 

 

[transatlanticsubway]

The Q46 is in urgent need of SBS