Queens Bus Redesign Discussion Thread

[Cait Sith]

18 hours ago, N6 Limited said:

Is it possible that some routes which are proposed to be merged are currently interlined?

The majority of the routes that have been merged don't interline with one another. Some of the routes in question aren't even in the same depot, or in the same company for that matter.

Q10 is JFK, Q64 is Baisley Park. In no way, shape or form do they interline.

Edited February 13, 2020 by Cait Sith

[B35 via Church]

5 hours ago, nuyorican said:

with the new redesign what lines will be an articulated route? 

Nobody knows (yet).... The final version of this crap hasn't even been released yet....

4 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

"Resembling the Q53 in the end". That concerns me. Because in the draft plan, under the QT52, it was said that "some type of summer variant to Rockaway Park would be done". I really hope he dosent mean just a summer variant of the Q53, it needs to be the Q53.

I'll take "Run a few QT52 trips up Broadway to "resemble" the Q53" for $1000, Alex

[EastFlatbushLarry]

4 hours ago, Cait Sith said:

The majority of the routes that have been merged don't interline with one another. Some of the routes in question aren't even in the same depot, or in the same company for that matter.

Q10 is JFK, Q64 is Baisley Park. In no way, shape or form do they interline.

I'm thankful you addressed this before i could. this is one of the points I'm declining to discuss in detail because

a) this is a "preliminary" plan

b) as you stated, this proposal expresses interest in combining TA Queens (ATU 1056) lines with Bus Company (Local 100 or ATU 1179) lines, which i have a very biased opinion on re: certain runs being awarded to one side or the other in the interest of cutting labor costs or reducing workforce in certain yards. regardless, even if certain lines were being combined due to prior interline circumstances, that doesn't mean that the combination is better for the customers or employees. for example, that new Q67 (Q36/110/112) combo is lose-lose for not just customers at 15 minute headways (utter gobshite) ... but i have my theory re: depot assignment and why they'd choose said yard. the 110 & 112 interline for Baisley... swing interlines & terminal interlines (dropbacks) are performed over there. combining them doesn't automatically make it better. it makes it easier for management to not duplicate RDO's, swings, etc... but again, too early to get that deep. 

[LGA Link N Train]

Given the Recent Backlash on the Draft Plan of the Queens Bus Redesign, I decided to grab one of my old documents/maps and began making proposals of what I'd do differently with the Redesign. While incomplete, Feedback would be appreciated:
 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/13bgZvRvkYdMhcMTbtcePbyqwYp9KfRrMgsB-McrdfdM/edit?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1TFLioK_1NnV15T-J0gOIR7WFRvp2GKz3&usp=sharing

[Jova42R]

20 minutes ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

Given the Recent Backlash on the Draft Plan of the Queens Bus Redesign, I decided to grab one of my old documents/maps and began making proposals of what I'd do differently with the Redesign. While incomplete, Feedback would be appreciated:
 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/13bgZvRvkYdMhcMTbtcePbyqwYp9KfRrMgsB-McrdfdM/edit?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1TFLioK_1NnV15T-J0gOIR7WFRvp2GKz3&usp=sharing

I've also made a map for Central Queens Bus Routes:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1zAbJNWo8HghIvErhDwgtRUGoKxOsYSHV&usp=sharing

• QT23
  • similar to Q23, slightly different Forest Hills routing
  • East Elmhurst to Forest Hills
  • runs C40LF
• QT98
  • new route
  • Ridgewood to Kew Gardens
  • runs XN40
• QT64
  • modified Q64
  • Ridgewood to Kew Gardens Hills
  • runs LFS
• QT72
  • replaces Q72
  • LGA to Ridgewood
  • runs XD60/XN60
• QT85
  • replaces Q38
  • Corona to Glendale
  • runs XD40
• QT4L
  • new route
  • Rego Park/Forest Hills/Kew Gardens/Middle Village loop
  • runs LFS
• QMT143
  • Forest Hills Express
  • runs D4500CT
  • runs all times

Thoughts on this?

Edited February 17, 2020 by Jova42R

[azspeedbullet]

15 hours ago, Jova42R said:

• QT4L
  • new route
  • Rego Park/Forest Hills/Kew Gardens/Middle Village loop
  • runs LFS

The only problem with this route is the narrow streets and one way streets on 78th Ave,73rd Place, 79th st, 85th St in Glendale/Middle Village.

If you look at google maps street view, there is no way to make a turn from cooper ave onto 79th st due to the underpass.

I love the idea, the only thing i would do is straighten the route and have it run along 80th st from Myrtle ave to Juniper Valley Rd

Edited February 17, 2020 by azspeedbullet

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

Two articles:

https://nypost.com/2020/02/15/queens-bus-riders-upset-over-mta-shuffling-routes/

Quote

Queens is having a BM (bus movement).

Riders aren’t taking a redesign of the borough’s bus network sitting down.

Their unhappiness is festering over the MTA’s first stab at redrawing 107 routes in nearly a century.

“Scrap the whole redesign,” Helen Gigante fumed on Facebook. “They need to leave our bus plan alone!” Peg Bosco chimed in.

Tens of thousands of Queens commuters have sent in comments online and through social media, and hundreds are packing town halls, MTA officials said.

One of the revamp’s masterminds claims he is pleased by all the feedback, no matter how vitriolic.

“There’s been colorful language,” acknowledged Mark Holmes, chief officer for bus operations and planning.

“Most of the feedback would be considered negative,” he added, “but we see that as positive because we want this to be a customer-led initiative.”

The overhaul — 77 local and 30 express routes, with the overall number staying roughly the same — should make for more reliable service, shorter travel times and better connections, Holmes said.

When the MTA launched the retool last spring, he said, planners wiped the slate clean. They evaluated traffic patterns, demographics, bus speed and ridership as well as conducted passenger surveys — online and in-person — and hosted open houses.

The biggest outcry is coming from neighborhoods that would lose buses. One is Jackson Heights, which is particularly worried about less service at the huge 74th Street-Roosevelt Avenue subway station.

Right now, 74th Street has six routes; the redesign puts the number at four. The goal, according to the MTA, is to eliminate redundancy and simplify the network.

A petition on Change.org to save the routes has almost 3,800 signatures.

“They recently said they’re eliminating routes that are ‘REDUNDANT’ pffftttt,” Barbara Camwell ranted on Facebook. “The Public meetings are full of angry people but the MTA just barrels ahead. They don’t acknowledge that this ISNT about just getting to the 74th Street terminal. That there are HUNDREDS of people in Corona & East Elmhurst that work and shop in Jackson Heights!!!”

Others are on board with the redesign, like housekeeper Nicole Campbell, who lives in Elmont, just over the Nassau County line.

She comes into the city for work, enduring miserable trips on the Q3, best known as the route to JFK Airport. Now, stops are roughly 850 feet apart. The revamp would nearly double that distance, to 1,326 feet, and reduce travel time by about 20 seconds a stop, the MTA said.

“It stops too much,” Campbell said. “You’re on it all day.”

The MTA has added more than a dozen meetings to hear from passengers. After the town halls, MTA promises to incorporate the straphanger suggestions into the final draft, which Holmes is pushing to be unveiled by late June. A vote by the MTA board will come after public hearings that aren’t on the schedule yet.

“We want to get it right,” he said. “We’re not chasing deadlines.”

 

https://gothamist.com/news/astoria-residents-worry-over-mta-bus-changes-nobody-wants-go-williamsburg

Quote

As the MTA continues to hold meetings and workshops around Queens to gather feedback on the controversial new proposed bus redesign, residents at one meeting in Astoria said the new design lacks enough service to critical areas and offers unnecessary new routes.

At a meeting held Thursday by Community Board 1 in Astoria, two representatives from the MTA answered questions about the loss of decades-old routes and the new ideas behind the redesign — the first reworking in a century since the current routes were drawn along the trolley lines and private bus companies that used to serve the borough. The changes are meant to increase speed in the system and increase ridership while also connecting to existing and future accessible subway stations, according to the MTA.

The distance between the bus stops will be generally increased from 853 feet today to about 1,400 feet -- a move to shave time off the commute, said Robert Lai, the MTA assistant chief officer of service planning, at the meeting in Astoria.

"Fewer lines on the map does not mean less service," he said.

Residents were skeptical that the new plans would still deliver service -- only the two routes over the Triboro bridge and the 59th Street bridge would directly serve Manhattan in the new redesign.

"It's congestion that's slowing down traffic," not the design of the current routes, said Community Board 1 member Dominic Stiller.

Max Foley, a 13-year-old Astoria resident, said he depends on his bus route to get him to school in 15 minutes and asked why the MTA's new plan doesn't have a bus line serving the entire stretch of Northern Boulevard. "It'd be really hard for me to get to school because that's really the most direct bus route to get to my school," he said, "It seems really inconvenient to have that one pocket of Northern Boulevard where there's kind of nothing there."

One point of contention was the MTA's proposed new service between Astoria and Greenpoint and Williamsburg, with a route that traverses 21st Avenue to McGuinness Boulevard and Driggs and Bedford avenues.

"This will actually greatly benefit me. I spend a lot of time in Brooklyn...so awesome-sauce as far as that," said Mitchell Waxman, a member of the community board. "That's great for me. But just as I told the people who want to build the BQX, it's nice that you want to spend $2.7 billion for my benefit, but I don't know if this works for everybody else."

Sandi Kabins, 65, of Astoria had commuted to Williamsburg in her job as a product vendor for the Whole Foods market there, and said she never saw enough afternoon ridership to justify the new dedicated bus routes.

"Nobody wants to go to Williamsburg," she said. "During the day, we need to get to work -- we need to get to Manhattan."

"You are inadequately servicing Astoria in favor of sound bytes," Kabins added. "When you look at a blank slate it is the incorrect way to run a bus system. You have to look at existing traffic patterns."

"Ridership is down because service kind of sucks," Waxman said. "Help us help you help Queens."

Edited February 17, 2020 by BM5 via Woodhaven
I hate what the quoting feature does to content immediately below the quote.

[Jova42R]

3 hours ago, azspeedbullet said:

The only problem with this route is the narrow streets and one way streets on 78th Ave,73rd Place, 79th st, 85th St in Glendale/Middle Village.

If you look at google maps street view, there is no way to make a turn from cooper ave onto 79th st due to the underpass.

I love the idea, the only thing i would do is straighten the route and have it run along 80th st from Myrtle ave to Juniper Valley Rd

True, it could. But it runs in a loop, so the one way streets don't matter.

[B35 via Church]

From the NY Post article BM5 just posted:

Quote

The biggest outcry is coming from neighborhoods that would lose buses. One is Jackson Heights, which is particularly worried about less service at the huge 74th Street-Roosevelt Avenue subway station.

Right now, 74th Street has six routes; the redesign puts the number at four. The goal, according to the MTA, is to eliminate redundancy and simplify the network.

smh....

It isn't about the number of routes to 74th, some of those folks are concerned about no longer having direct access to 74th st.... Framing it like that would fool some people, but that is not the same thing..... Let's not paint this narrative that Jackson Heights is primarily concerned about the loss of BACKUP bus routes they can utilize to get to 74th.....

Quote

Others are on board with the redesign, like housekeeper Nicole Campbell, who lives in Elmont, just over the Nassau County line.

She comes into the city for work, enduring miserable trips on the Q3, best known as the route to JFK Airport. Now, stops are roughly 850 feet apart. The revamp would nearly double that distance, to 1,326 feet, and reduce travel time by about 20 seconds a stop, the MTA said.

“It stops too much,” Campbell said. “You’re on it all day.”

As a city resident, I personally don't care if this plan would make a Nassau resident's commute to the city any easier...... There is something to be said though, that they couldn't pull on a Queens resident to be the example of someone that's in favor of the draft plan....

 

Edited February 17, 2020 by B35 via Church

[B35 via Church]

From the Gothamist article BM5 just edited his post to include:

Quote

 

The distance between the bus stops will be generally increased from 853 feet today to about 1,400 feet -- a move to shave time off the commute, said Robert Lai, the MTA assistant chief officer of service planning, at the meeting in Astoria.

"Fewer lines on the map does not mean less service," he said.

 

Sure it doesn't - but actually proposing less service along a good portion of corridors throughout the borough does, though....

Funny how that works out.

Quote

"It's congestion that's slowing down traffic," not the design of the current routes, said Community Board 1 member Dominic Stiller.

Ok, great.... Nice to know that there's at least someone else out there with an ounce of brains that's perceptive enough to come to this conclusion.
 

Quote

 

One point of contention was the MTA's proposed new service between Astoria and Greenpoint and Williamsburg, with a route that traverses 21st Avenue to McGuinness Boulevard and Driggs and Bedford avenues.

"This will actually greatly benefit me. I spend a lot of time in Brooklyn...so awesome-sauce as far as that," said Mitchell Waxman, a member of the community board. "That's great for me. But just as I told the people who want to build the BQX, it's nice that you want to spend $2.7 billion for my benefit, but I don't know if this works for everybody else."

Sandi Kabins, 65, of Astoria had commuted to Williamsburg in her job as a product vendor for the Whole Foods market there, and said she never saw enough afternoon ridership to justify the new dedicated bus routes.

"Nobody wants to go to Williamsburg," she said. "During the day, we need to get to work -- we need to get to Manhattan."

"You are inadequately servicing Astoria in favor of sound bytes," Kabins added. "When you look at a blank slate it is the incorrect way to run a bus system. You have to look at existing traffic patterns."

 

Finally, a Queens resident that's on record that'll stand to benefit from this plan.... And of course, it'd be from the QT1, one of the better ideas of the proposal.... Sandi Kabins is out of touch with reality, as far as folks not (seeking to) travel b/w Astoria & North Brooklyn.... She'd have been right 30+ years ago, but these days, demand for travel b/w those two general regions is pretty high.... It's only going to increase, as Williamsburg gets more built up too....

I mean, people can do what they want with their own time, but if I was an Astorian, I would never do that → shit just to get to the "trendier" part of Williamsburg......

Quote

"Ridership is down because service kind of sucks," Waxman said. "Help us help you help Queens."

I like how he put that at the end there.... The MTA is not primarily trying to help Queens residents, they're trying to trim a budget.

[EphraimB]

No more bus service for Beach 9 St?

[LGA Link N Train]

Given the Backlash against the Draft Plan of the Queens Bus Redesign, there are aspects of the plan that need to be done differently. I threw all of my thoughts and suggestions into this document: 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/13bgZvRvkYdMhcMTbtcePbyqwYp9KfRrMgsB-McrdfdM/edit?usp=sharing

The are a handful of routes such as the QT1 that should stay as proposed in my opinon

Other routes such as the QT60 can use a frequency boost. (Also, I've been hearing that people are complaining for the loss of Manhattan Service). 

Some routes such as the QT76 and QT79 need to be modified heavily from how they're proposed, but I don't know exactly what I'd do differently. 

I added a few new routes, but here's 2 that I'll highlight:

QT29 : Jackson Heights/Roosevelt Avenue - Glendale/Myrtle Avenue. One Flaw of MTA’s Queens Bus Redesign is that there is no bus access on 80th Street. The Q9 will run via 80th Street, Grand Avenue, and 69th Street in order to provide a viable replacement for the current Q47.

QT90 : Jackson Heights - The Hub. Given the discussions regarding the Triboro RX, a new Queens-Bronx Bus route shall be implemented. The QT90 will run via 74/75th Streets until reaching Astoria Blvd, where it’ll run with the QT81 and through the Triboro. It’ll terminate at The Hub near 3rd-Avenue/149th Street Station on the and Lines.

[N6 Limited]

Quote

"It's congestion that's slowing down traffic," not the design of the current routes, said Community Board 1 member Dominic Stiller.

 

5 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Ok, great.... Nice to know that there's at least someone else out there with an ounce of brains that's perceptive enough to come to this conclusion.

Doesn't help when the signals are Green for 25 seconds at a time.

[Lawrence St]

14 hours ago, N6 Limited said:

 

Doesn't help when the signals are Green for 25 seconds at a time.

The traffic signals in Queens are a complete mess. Some of the signals are 8 seconds, some of them 12, some of them 30, and it throws the whole corridor out of sync with each other causing a traffic jam. 

[B35 via Church]

19 hours ago, N6 Limited said:

Doesn't help when the signals are Green for 25 seconds at a time.

Synchronization is the pits.

23 hours ago, EphraimB said:

No more bus service for Beach 9 St?

Nope... That would end up being just NICE bus territory... Doesn't bode too well for you.... Tough break man.

21 hours ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

Given the Backlash against the Draft Plan of the Queens Bus Redesign, there are aspects of the plan that need to be done differently. I threw all of my thoughts and suggestions into this document: 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/13bgZvRvkYdMhcMTbtcePbyqwYp9KfRrMgsB-McrdfdM/edit?usp=sharing

Yes, there are aspects of this abomination they call a draft plan that needs to be done differently... TBH though, I don't really concur with some of your suggestions in light of the thing either (running Q22's to LIRR Cedarhurst is one of them)... What the MTA would do with the QT22/QT62 in Cedarhurst doesn't make much of any sense.... Your suggestion to redistribute the mileage the QT22 takes to get from Mott to Burnside, to run it to the rail station instead, isn't that much better.... Those that take the current Q114 are hardly even thinking about the LIRR... It would make more sense to have both of those routes (QT22/QT62) terminate at, or even inside Five Towns....

You should've posted your ideas in the proposal thread; I don't want to clutter this thread with critiques of your proposal (which is the reason I haven't responded to the OP of your proposal in this thread)....

5 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

The traffic signals in Queens are a complete mess. Some of the signals are 8 seconds, some of them 12, some of them 30, and it throws the whole corridor out of sync with each other causing a traffic jam. 

Yep, citywide phenomena.... My disdain of driving within Brooklyn alone continues to increase.

Edited February 18, 2020 by B35 via Church

[Q43LTD]

2 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Synchronization is the pits.

Nope... That would end up being just NICE bus territory... Doesn't bode too well for you.... Tough break man.

Yes, there are aspects of this abomination they call a draft plan that needs to be done differently... TBH though, I don't really concur with some of your suggestions in light of the thing either (running Q22's to LIRR Cedarhurst is one of them)... What the MTA would do with the QT22/QT62 in Cedarhurst doesn't make much of any sense.... Your suggestion to redistribute the mileage the QT22 takes to get from Mott to Burnside, to run it to the rail station instead, isn't that much better.... Those that take the current Q114 are hardly even thinking about the LIRR... It would make more sense to have both of those routes (QT22/QT62) terminate at, or even inside Five Towns....

You should've posted your ideas in the proposal thread; I don't want to clutter this thread with critiques of your proposal (which is the reason I haven't responded to the OP of your proposal in this thread)....

Yep, citywide phenomena.... My disdain of driving within Brooklyn alone continues to increase.

At least the n33 is open door in Far Rockaway. I also thought about ending the QT22 and 62 at LIRR Cedarhurst for turn around purposes. That intersection Rockaway Tpke by West Broadway/Burnside Av is arbitrary

[B35 via Church]

1 hour ago, Q43LTD said:

At least the n33 is open door in Far Rockaway. I also thought about ending the QT22 and 62 at LIRR Cedarhurst for turn around purposes. That intersection Rockaway Tpke by West Broadway/Burnside Av is arbitrary

Agreed.

They (continue to) underestimate how many people west of Far Rockaway down there in the Rockaways travel out to that major commercial strip between Brookville & Burnside.....

[SoSpectacular]

14 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

The traffic signals in Queens are a complete mess. Some of the signals are 8 seconds, some of them 12, some of them 30, and it throws the whole corridor out of sync with each other causing a traffic jam. 

Vision Zero is a big reason for the lights being out of sync. Either that or they plaster a street with red light cameras or speed cameras provided there's a school within a quarter-mile radius.

While the point of that entire initiative was to reduce traffic deaths and traffic overall, it also causes a lot of other things to suffer. Most folks aren't going to take not driving sitting down. I would love NOT to drive my car all the time but because of where I currently live and the only method of getting anywhere is one bus that doesn't even run 24 hours, I'm assed out.

[Lawrence St]

13 hours ago, SoSpectacular said:

Vision Zero is a big reason for the lights being out of sync. Either that or they plaster a street with red light cameras or speed cameras provided there's a school within a quarter-mile radius.

While the point of that entire initiative was to reduce traffic deaths and traffic overall, it also causes a lot of other things to suffer. Most folks aren't going to take not driving sitting down. I would love NOT to drive my car all the time but because of where I currently live and the only method of getting anywhere is one bus that doesn't even run 24 hours, I'm assed out.

And on top of that, I'm pretty sure no one in NYC drives 25 MPH. Vision Zero is a waste of time.

[N6 Limited]

On 2/19/2020 at 4:03 PM, Lawrence St said:

And on top of that, I'm pretty sure no one in NYC drives 25 MPH. Vision Zero is a waste of time.

The TLC plated vehicles do (livery, uber, lyft,etc) , they go at or under 25/50 EVERYWHERE, they're a nuisance and you can see the frustration of other drivers. They even camp in the left lane, Its kind of funny they're somewhat being blamed for congestion for following the speed limit 🤣

[Q43LTD]

This redesign for Queens was botched. Why was the too lazy to do a route by route analysis instead of evaluating corridors like there's 10 routes running down a specific street. 

[B35 via Church]

1 hour ago, Q43LTD said:

This redesign for Queens was botched. Why was the too lazy to do a route by route analysis instead of evaluating corridors like there's 10 routes running down a specific street. 

In a redesigned network, you don't necessarily have to consider any of the individual routes in the network you're trying to redesign....

[NY1635]

1 hour ago, Q43LTD said:

This redesign for Queens was botched. Why was the too lazy to do a route by route analysis instead of evaluating corridors like there's 10 routes running down a specific street. 

What's botching the redesign is the MTA's stubborn refusal to print out paper work

It's getting them in trouble and the just look it up idea doesn't really help.

They performed analysis and are planning to make the Q22 the Mott Avenue-Beach 116th Street Station line.

Turned out that long line of people I saw on Beach 21st and Rockaway Turnpike are people waiting for the 113/114 and the 22.

The n31/32 is the only thing that gets high usage in 5 Towns while the 113/114 is stuck in Traffic by the shopping centers.

Perhaps the 33 can go to that shopping center by Brookville

BTW, I didn't know they got rid of Bronx BBQ at Green Acres

The city simply doesn't want buses near that marsh on Brookville. City Bus Drivers will

 

[N6 Limited]

I used the rapid buses in LA and I feel that's how SBS SHOULD have been. They MOVE (Like NICE used to do before they started turning Nassau into a game of red light, green light,123).  So, as a reference point, the Queens redesign is not really a disaster, it's just people resistant to change.

From what I can see, the hindrances to the success of the redesign are:

1.  Vision Zero
2. NYCDOT and their pesky traffic signals.
3. MTA's one-transfer policy.
4. MTA/NYCT's B/O operating procedure for them drive like sedated zombies.

When people say buses are "slow" they do not mean frequency, they mean SPEED.

Edited February 23, 2020 by N6 Limited
forgot something

[Cait Sith]

21 minutes ago, N6 Limited said:

I used the rapid buses in LA and I feel that's how SBS SHOULD have been. They MOVE (Like NICE used to do before they started turning Nassau into a game of red light, green light,123).  So, as a reference point, the Queens redesign is not really a disaster, it's just people resistant to change.

From what I can see, the hindrances to the success of the redesign are:

1.  Vision Zero
2. NYCDOT and their pesky traffic signals.
3. MTA's one-transfer policy.
4. MTA/NYCT's B/O operating procedure for them drive like sedated zombies.

When people say buses are "slow" they do not mean frequency, they mean SPEED.

That's what everybody says when they go to another city and rides their buses.

Simply put, SBS implementation was trash from the start. The bus spec is also a big part of that reason.

Edited February 23, 2020 by Cait Sith