Queens Bus Redesign Discussion Thread

[N6 Limited]

29 minutes ago, Cait Sith said:

That's what everybody says when they go to another city and rides their buses.

Simply put, SBS implementation was trash from the start. The bus spec is also a big part of that reason.

Pretty much, I figured that out when I used the M15SBS, I expected a quick ride, in reality we kind of coasted down 2nd Ave, stopping frequently due to stops and signals. It felt throttled, both acceleration and top speed. Is that what you're referring to with the bus spec?

[Cait Sith]

1 minute ago, N6 Limited said:

Pretty much, I figured that out when I used the M15SBS, I expected a quick ride, in reality we kind of coasted down 2nd Ave, stopping frequently due to stops and signals. It felt throttled, both acceleration and top speed. Is that what you're referring to with the bus spec?

No.

Door specs are not fit for SBS. Wider rear doors would speed things up. The acceleration and top speed is due to the local buses being governed at 40-45MPH.

[B35 via Church]

SBS is a piss-poor substitute for BRT... That's really all it boils down to.

[SoSpectacular]

32 minutes ago, Cait Sith said:

No.

Door specs are not fit for SBS. Wider rear doors would speed things up. The acceleration and top speed is due to the local buses being governed at 40-45MPH.

All local buses are capped at 40 MPH (yikes). 

[LTA1992]

4 hours ago, N6 Limited said:

I used the rapid buses in LA and I feel that's how SBS SHOULD have been. They MOVE (Like NICE used to do before they started turning Nassau into a game of red light, green light,123).  So, as a reference point, the Queens redesign is not really a disaster, it's just people resistant to change.

From what I can see, the hindrances to the success of the redesign are:

1.  Vision Zero
2. NYCDOT and their pesky traffic signals.
3. MTA's one-transfer policy.
4. MTA/NYCT's B/O operating procedure for them drive like sedated zombies.

When people say buses are "slow" they do not mean frequency, they mean SPEED.

Fun fact: LA is actually doing what I think should be done here. Under their NextGen study, the intent is to get rid of all but three Rapid routes (as well as a few outlying local routes) in order to provide consistent 15 minute or less headways across 80% of the system.

To recoup some of the lost time, all stops would be spaced closer to every 400m/1400ft.

For those wondering why, the answer is this: In order to reap the time savings benefit of Rapid buses, one would need to ride at least 7 miles.

Similarly to our Limited routes. I don't compare SBS as LAs Rapid routes are stated to be spaced similarly to our Limiteds. SBS has wider stop spacing in many cases.

From the day I learned that frequency is more important than speed, that idea came into fruition. And I'm glad there is a city in America that will run the experiment for me.

The MTA has already committed to changing the transfer policy with the redesigns (as they would require it anyway) and OMNY (my hopes anyway) may well introduce an unlimited number or transfers over a 2-hour period.

Vision Zero is the correct idea btw. It's the way we go about it, as well as actual enforcement, that is the issue. It's been proven that faster city speed limits lead to more congestion while lower speed limits not only lead to less congestion, but a more even flow of traffic. Mortality rate need not be mentioned. Influencing both are street width and distance between intersections. 

[LTA1992]

1 minute ago, LTA1992 said:

Fun fact: LA is actually doing what I think should be done here. Under their NextGen study, the intent is to get rid of all but three Rapid routes (as well as a few outlying local routes) in order to provide consistent 15 minute or less headways across 80% of the system.

To recoup some of the lost time, all stops would be spaced closer to every 400m/1400ft.

For those wondering why, the answer is this: In order to reap the time savings benefit of Rapid buses, one would need to ride at least 7 miles.

Similarly to our Limited routes. I don't compare SBS as LAs Rapid routes are stated to be spaced similarly to our Limiteds. SBS has wider stop spacing in many cases.

From the day I learned that frequency is more important than speed, that idea came into fruition. And I'm glad there is a city in America that will run the experiment for me.

The MTA has already committed to changing the transfer policy with the redesigns (as they would require it anyway) and OMNY could even allow for an unlimited number or transfers over a 2-hour period.

Vision Zero is the correct idea btw. It's the way we go about it, as well as actual enforcement, that is the issue. It's been proven that faster city speed limits lead to more congestion while lower speed limits not only lead to less congestion, but a more even flow of traffic. Mortality rate need not be mentioned. Influencing both are street width and distance between intersections. 

 

Edited February 23, 2020 by LTA1992

[NewFlyer 230]

6 hours ago, Cait Sith said:

No.

Door specs are not fit for SBS. Wider rear doors would speed things up. The acceleration and top speed is due to the local buses being governed at 40-45MPH.

It always annoys me when I’m trying to get on a SBS bus but have to wait for a ton of people to get off people before I can get on. 
 

As far as the speed, how practical is it for some routes to even exceed 30mph? I feel like with almost every SBS I’ve used there is always a portion has has no bus lanes or something blocking the bus lane that causes the bus to be in regular traffic slowing the bus down. The only time when SBS routes fly is at night. I’ve been on Q44’s Q52/Q53’s and M15’s that literally flew down their routes. Oh and then you have some SBS drivers who go speed limit in the bus lane and you can only imagine how annoying that is. 
 

 

[Gotham Bus Co.]

2 hours ago, LTA1992 said:

The MTA has already committed to changing the transfer policy with the redesigns (as they would require it anyway) and OMNY (my hopes anyway) may well introduce an unlimited number or transfers over a 2-hour period.

 

I have long advocated for scrapping all transfer privileges in favor of a time-based pass. One dip/tap/swipe would get you complete access to the entire base system for a defined amount of time, as is done in some other transit agencies (e.g. 90 minutes in Vancouver, 3 hours in Denver).  It can even vary by time of day (e.g. 4 hours overnight, 3 hours at other times).

[Lex]

4 minutes ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

 

I have long advocated for scrapping all transfer privileges in favor of a time-based pass. One dip/tap/swipe would get you complete access to the entire base system for a defined amount of time, as is done in some other transit agencies (e.g. 90 minutes in Vancouver, 3 hours in Denver).  It can even vary by time of day (e.g. 4 hours overnight, 3 hours at other times).

Because we totally don't have anything of the sort already...

[Trainmaster5]

8 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

SBS is a piss-poor substitute for BRT... That's really all it boils down to.

I think the problem with some people boils down to ignorance about the existing Surface system. As you correctly pointed out the word “rapid “ doesn’t appear in any description of the present bus service mandate. It wasn’t designed for that. Even when there were less cars on the road. Frequency was the goal of the system back then. Under that system I think the LTD route introduction was the best thing to do. Times have changed and the SBS concept comes into play. I remember that there were posters who raved about the B44SBS when it started up. With all due respect to my B/O brethren the  literature and press clips touting the time savings from Knapp St to Bridge Plaza were an insult to anyone who had a brain and understood travel patterns on that corridor and on the B46 variant to a lesser extent. No one , except the operator and fanners, travels the whole route on a daily basis. Most riders travel on a portion of a route. The LTD concept coupled with the locals were the pinnacle, IMO,. The SBS, as presently used, along with the increased distance between stops on all routes , and Vision Zero speed restrictions are a recipe for a loss of ridership. I see people complain about speed of buses, the traffic light cycles, and such but are they totally ignorant of the speed limits on city streets and the governors on city buses? If they want speed increases maybe they should lobby for real BRT and dedicated bus ROW. I think the proposed Bus redesign proposals in the boroughs will be a slap in the face to many people. I don’t think any bus operator is going to exceed the speed limits and as long as the signals are set up the way NYC wants them nothing will change. SBS has the letter “ S” appear twice in it’s name but neither one says speed. My take. Carry on.

Maybe this belongs in the SBS thread ? Sorry mods.

Edited February 23, 2020 by Trainmaster5
Wrong thread ?

[Jova42R]

7 hours ago, SoSpectacular said:

All local buses are capped at 40 MPH (yikes). 

I have ridden LOCAL buses going at least 50 MPH (M60 and SI buses)...

Edited February 23, 2020 by Jova42R

[Trainmaster5]

10 minutes ago, Jova42R said:

I have ridden LOCAL buses going at least 50 MPH (M60 and SI buses)...

On city streets? NYPD and surface supervisors thank you for snitching 😁😁😁

[Jova42R]

3 minutes ago, Trainmaster5 said:

On city streets? NYPD and surface supervisors thank you for snitching 😁😁😁

No, highway...

[Cait Sith]

3 hours ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

It always annoys me when I’m trying to get on a SBS bus but have to wait for a ton of people to get off people before I can get on. 
 

As far as the speed, how practical is it for some routes to even exceed 30mph? I feel like with almost every SBS I’ve used there is always a portion has has no bus lanes or something blocking the bus lane that causes the bus to be in regular traffic slowing the bus down. The only time when SBS routes fly is at night. I’ve been on Q44’s Q52/Q53’s and M15’s that literally flew down their routes. Oh and then you have some SBS drivers who go speed limit in the bus lane and you can only imagine how annoying that is. 
 

 

For some routes, it's practical such as the Queens SBS routes.

It's most practical for deadheads, especially on Staten Island and operators that have to deadhead to different boroughs for subway shuttles. Driving on the expressways at 40MPH is both impractical and unsafe.

[Future ENY OP]

3 hours ago, Jova42R said:

I have ridden LOCAL buses going at least 50 MPH (M60 and SI buses)...

Fam. You outchea snitching on drivers. Cool it. Your about to make a drivers job even harder to make service. (Not that it’s already happening) 

[N6 Limited]

3 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

I think the problem with some people boils down to ignorance about the existing Surface system. As you correctly pointed out the word “rapid “ doesn’t appear in any description of the present bus service mandate. It wasn’t designed for that. Even when there were less cars on the road. Frequency was the goal of the system back then. Under that system I think the LTD route introduction was the best thing to do. Times have changed and the SBS concept comes into play. I remember that there were posters who raved about the B44SBS when it started up. With all due respect to my B/O brethren the  literature and press clips touting the time savings from Knapp St to Bridge Plaza were an insult to anyone who had a brain and understood travel patterns on that corridor and on the B46 variant to a lesser extent. No one , except the operator and fanners, travels the whole route on a daily basis. Most riders travel on a portion of a route. The LTD concept coupled with the locals were the pinnacle, IMO,. The SBS, as presently used, along with the increased distance between stops on all routes , and Vision Zero speed restrictions are a recipe for a loss of ridership. I see people complain about speed of buses, the traffic light cycles, and such but are they totally ignorant of the speed limits on city streets and the governors on city buses? If they want speed increases maybe they should lobby for real BRT and dedicated bus ROW. I think the proposed Bus redesign proposals in the boroughs will be a slap in the face to many people. I don’t think any bus operator is going to exceed the speed limits and as long as the signals are set up the way NYC wants them nothing will change. SBS has the letter “ S” appear twice in it’s name but neither one says speed. My take. Carry on.

Maybe this belongs in the SBS thread ? Sorry mods.

Its not just about the speed, per se. The issue is that even if the bus went a constant 25 (They can go 35, there's a 10MPH buffer as all motorists know), it gets stopped too frequently by red signals, if the bus could just stay in motion for more than 20 seconds at a time that would help.

[Cait Sith]

21 minutes ago, Future ENY OP said:

Fam. You outchea snitching on drivers. Cool it. Your about to make a drivers job even harder to make service. (Not that it’s already happening) 

He's not really snitching.

Staten Island(specifically Yukon) has their buses over 40 because of the S89(which has also benefited the S79). NJ State Police have pulled over MTA Buses for driving too slow in New Jersey.

As for the M60 fleet...they're somewhere between 40 & 45.

[N6 Limited]

2 minutes ago, Cait Sith said:

 NJ State Police have pulled over MTA Buses for driving too slow in New Jersey.

Thank you NJ! Clearly the solution is to send a route from each depot through NJ 😄

[Future ENY OP]

50 minutes ago, Cait Sith said:

He's not really snitching.

NJ State Police have pulled over MTA Buses for driving too slow in New Jersey.

As for the M60 fleet...they're somewhere between 40 & 45.

I'm learning something new with this.... However, good to know..

[XBht26]

On 2/22/2020 at 1:01 AM, N6 Limited said:

The TLC plated vehicles do (livery, uber, lyft,etc) , they go at or under 25/50 EVERYWHERE, they're a nuisance and you can see the frustration of other drivers. They even camp in the left lane, Its kind of funny they're somewhat being blamed for congestion for following the speed limit 🤣

They’re trying to get rear ended to get that check!

[Lawrence St]

3 hours ago, Cait Sith said:

He's not really snitching.

Staten Island(specifically Yukon) has their buses over 40 because of the S89(which has also benefited the S79). NJ State Police have pulled over MTA Buses for driving too slow in New Jersey.

As for the M60 fleet...they're somewhere between 40 & 45.

Police? Pulling over MTA buses? Do they have nothing better to be doing?

[Cait Sith]

3 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

Police? Pulling over MTA buses? Do they have nothing better to be doing?

....I can tell you've never been on the line.

Speed limits at that part of NJ is over 50mph(55 I think). Buses doing 15 below that is unsafe along a high-speed roadway and can create hazards for other motorists.

The police had every right to pull them over.

 

 

Edited February 23, 2020 by Cait Sith

[JAzumah]

2 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

Police? Pulling over MTA buses? Do they have nothing better to be doing?

The Jersey boys run the Turnpike bus lane between 70MPH and 80MPH.

So, if you are going to plod along at 55MPH, don't be one lane off of the bus lane. Stay to the right with all the trucks doing 55MPH.

If your bus is turned up to 65MPH, then you can stay close to the bus lane in case you need to dive in.

[P3F]

1 hour ago, Cait Sith said:

....I can tell you've never been on the line.

Speed limits at that part of NJ is over 50mph(55 I think). Buses doing 15 below that is unsafe along a high-speed roadway and can create hazards for other motorists.

The police had every right to pull them over.

 

 

In that case, wouldn't the B83 have issues as well? Or is its stint on the Belt Parkway too short to matter?

[Cait Sith]

1 minute ago, P3F said:

In that case, wouldn't the B83 have issues as well? Or is its stint on the Belt Parkway too short to matter?

The B83 doesn't go into New Jersey, and it's stint on the Belt is much shorter than the S89's stint over the bridge and along Route 440. The discussion was primarily about New Jersey, where the way they handle things is different. I'm pretty sure if something happened within New York City, it would've been common knowledge by now.

Operators and such have argued about the 40MPH govern limit being unsafe for deadheads and other situations, but both the MTA and the city were like....meh.

Let's get back on topic.