Queens Bus Redesign Discussion Thread

[bobtehpanda]

3 hours ago, Lex said:

Speak for yourself.

Consider that in the format where it might most often get used (in the panel on the bus), the multicolor madness combined with the relatively small font sizes means that your face basically has to be up against the thing to even try and figure out where things go. And the current insets are particularly difficult.

There's a reason why accessibility is defined as "access for all." A child or a grandmother should be able to use the map quickly and effectively, and so should those of us with impairments or disability.

Edited May 1, 2020 by bobtehpanda

[Lex]

5 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

Consider that in the format where it might most often get used (in the panel on the bus), the multicolor madness combined with the relatively small font sizes means that your face basically has to be up against the thing to even try and figure out where things go. And the current insets are particularly difficult.

There's a reason why accessibility is defined as "access for all." A child or a grandmother should be able to use the map effectively, and so should those of us with impairments or disability.

Color-coding can be done fairly easily with the express routes, given how they converge. Local routes? They go all over the place, and some fall well short of where others go. Branching only sours the deal. You could maybe do it by depot, but that also assumes no routes are significantly split between depots.

Color-coding can also be thwarted rather easily by color-blindness, which doesn't affect everyone in the larger camp the same way.

As for the talk about where it would most likely be used, every map would have legibility issues in that location because it would inherently be difficult to see which route(s) you need from more than a foot in front of your face.

[bobtehpanda]

2 hours ago, Lex said:

Color-coding can be done fairly easily with the express routes, given how they converge. Local routes? They go all over the place, and some fall well short of where others go. Branching only sours the deal. You could maybe do it by depot, but that also assumes no routes are significantly split between depots.

By destination is fairly simple. At least in Queens most buses could be grouped into the following

• LIC/Queens Plaza
• Rego Park
• Jackson Heights
• Jamaica
• Flushing
• Jamaica & Flushing
• Outer boroughs
• and other

This is no different than coloring according to the subway trunks, like today's subway map. The current approach is more akin to the 1972 Vignelli and its confusing color palette, particularly because there isn't any rhyme or reason as to why the routes are colored the way they are. 

Depots would be a terrible system, because your average rider doesn't have to give two shits about depots.

2 hours ago, Lex said:

Color-coding can also be thwarted rather easily by color-blindness, which doesn't affect everyone in the larger camp the same way.

I know. I'm colorblind. The current map doesn't do me any favors, because some of the colors I have a hard time distinguishing.

The subway map also has its problems since it uses a similar color palette, but there the amount of overlap between potentially confusing colors is kept to a minimum. This hasn't been true of the bus maps.

2 hours ago, Lex said:

As for the talk about where it would most likely be used, every map would have legibility issues in that location because it would inherently be difficult to see which route(s) you need from more than a foot in front of your face.

This isn't strictly true. Right now the map text size is constrained by the need to keep lots of bands of colors on one street a reasonable width. If you can consolidate things into one thick line you can adjust text size proportionally.

[B35 via Church]

14 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

I don't think that by operator is relevant any more, but an idea I've thought about is color coding by major destination (Jackson Heights, Rego Park, Flushing, Jamaica, LIC, Astoria etc.)

The current map went way too far in the opposite direction and is hard-to-read Pantone spaghetti.

7 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

By destination is fairly simple. At least in Queens most buses could be grouped into the following

• LIC/Queens Plaza
• Rego Park
• Jackson Heights
• Jamaica
• Flushing
• Jamaica & Flushing
• Outer boroughs
• and other

This is no different than coloring according to the subway trunks, like today's subway map. The current approach is more akin to the 1972 Vignelli and its confusing color palette, particularly because there isn't any rhyme or reason as to why the routes are colored the way they are....

The choice of colors & the lack of uniformity with where (or how) the colors are situated, isn't the problem with the maps IMO - it's that the amount of clutter steadily increases on them... I'm not trying to come off as being insensitive here, but trying to monochromatically depict routes by major destination won't exactly increase the quality of clarity either.... Seeing a bunch of purple lines radiating from Flushing, red lines from Jamaica, orange lines from Jackson Heights (for example) to me, is an unjustified grouping of bus routes...

Usually when routes are color coded in such a fashion. it tends to convey that the routes are all part of a particular trunk line (well.... like, the subway map)... This is why I never really cared for the coupling of the Q30/31 & the Q54/Q56, for example.... IDK man, I think you're putting way too much stock in the (lack of) reasoning behind the color choices of the routes..... I'm not seeing why there even has to be one; I mean, all of the routes that serve a certain major destination are not monolithic....

14 hours ago, jaf0519 said:

I would rather have a compromise. I prefer the current map over the old style. They definitely shouldn’t change it to the just four colors by route type that they had in the draft plan.

Like they did for Staten Island with a separate express bus map, they should do that for each borough, plus for Queens have a separate map for the express to the subway routes also. As for the color coding for different destinations, maybe have maps that highlight the routes in those areas. One for all routes that serve Flushing, one for LIC, one for each of the hubs in Jamaica (LIRR, Parsons/Archer, 165 St)

Yeah, a separate express map for SI suffices b/c its express bus network is more extensive.... However, I wouldn't go as far as to creating individual express bus maps for the other 3 outerboroughs... There would have to be some level of condensing involved, but I'd still combine Brooklyn/Bronx/Queens on one map....

Where things went south real quick with how cluttered the bus maps have gotten, was when they added the express routes.... That, and showing so many points of interests.... Next thing you know, there'll be those little black triangles on the map denoting Apple stores, Starbucks', & Whole Foods locations for f***s sake....

12 hours ago, Q101 E Midtown said:

I always wondered was why they never identified the stops for the express routes like they would for limited and select bus routes.

Well let's just hope it has nothing to do with any appeasing of insularity of (some of) its riders....

In any case, it's all the more reason why the portrayal of express lines needs to be extracted from the local maps...

[B35 via Church]

16 hours ago, Lex said:

Speak for yourself.

Yeah, I don't see any problem with the scattering of colors about the map either... Right now it's only what - red, orange, purple, blue, skyblue, light green, and dark green for the expresses....

Now if they started adding sea green, pank (hot pink), dark brown, yellow, burgundy, macaroni, and a bunch of other goofy colors for the routes, at that point it'd be like yeah, ease up on the crayola shit....

13 hours ago, Lex said:

Color-coding can be done fairly easily with the express routes, given how they converge.

Local routes? They go all over the place, and some fall well short of where others go. Branching only sours the deal. You could maybe do it by depot, but that also assumes no routes are significantly split between depots.

Color-coding can also be thwarted rather easily by color-blindness, which doesn't affect everyone in the larger camp the same way.

As for the talk about where it would most likely be used, every map would have legibility issues in that location because it would inherently be difficult to see which route(s) you need from more than a foot in front of your face.

I'm simply not seeing the need to correlate the color coding behind the subway lines & wanting to color code a bunch of bus routes that (as you've plainly stated) go all over the place.... With the subways, the color of the subway bullets are shown all throughout the subway system (platform signage, upon entry/exit of each station, on the trains themselves (well not so much on the newer fleets)), so it's far more relevant.... That, and there's only but so many Manhattan trunk lines & other lines like the , , , that are lone wolves (so to speak... lol).....

Coloring the Q24 line (for example) on the map as the same color as all the other routes that serve Jamaica, OTOH won't mean much of anything once you stop looking at the bus map.... On the current Queens map, I think it's skyblue IIRC... Now where on any bus operating as the Q24 do you see any inkling of a skyblue Q24 emblem?

(Although I will admit, I would like to see more color{s} on the destination signs themselves than just the lime green or orange - which, while petty enough, is one of the few things I liked about the introduction of SBS).....

Edited May 1, 2020 by B35 via Church

[bobtehpanda]

8 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Yeah, I don't see any problem with the scattering of colors about the map either... Right now it's only what - red, orange, purple, blue, skyblue, light green, and dark green for the expresses....

Now if they started adding sea green, pank (hot pink), dark brown, yellow, burgundy, macaroni, and a bunch of other goofy colors for the routes, at that point it'd be like yeah, ease up on the crayola shit....

I'm simply not seeing the need to correlate the color coding behind the subway lines & wanting to color code a bunch of bus routes that (as you've plainly stated) go all over the place.... With the subways, the color of the subway bullets are shown all throughout the subway system (platform signage, upon entry/exit of each station, on the trains themselves (well not so much on the newer fleets)), so it's far more relevant.... That, and there's only but so many Manhattan trunk lines & other lines like the , , , that are lone wolves (so to speak... lol).....

Coloring the Q24 line (for example) on the map as the same color as all the other routes that serve Jamaica, OTOH won't mean much of anything once you stop looking at the bus map.... On the current Queens map, I think it's skyblue IIRC... Now where on any bus operating as the Q24 do you see any inkling of a skyblue Q24 emblem?

(Although I will admit, I would like to see more color{s} on the destination signs themselves than just the lime green or orange - which, while petty enough, is one of the few things I liked about the introduction of SBS).....

The power of color-coding by destination is the ability to figure out where a bus goes from anywhere on the map relatively quickly. Using Fresh Meadows as an example, you could point your finger at where you currently are, and easily sort out that

• "orange" routes go to Jamaica and Flushing
• "blue" routes go to Flushing 
• "red" routes go to Jamaica
• grey routes go somewhere else

And readily sort out which bus gets you where you need to go quickly, in the same manner that coloring the subway routes by trunk route also allows one to figure out which train gets them to which avenue, even if you are looking somewhere far out in Jamaica or Morris Park or Flatbush.

Didn't the old rollsign buses use to have colors on the front rollsigns?

Edited May 1, 2020 by bobtehpanda

[B35 via Church]

7 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

The power of color-coding by destination is the ability to figure out where a bus goes from anywhere on the map relatively quickly. Using Fresh Meadows as an example, you could point your finger at where you currently are, and easily sort out that

• "orange" routes go to Jamaica and Flushing
• "blue" routes go to Flushing 
• "red" routes go to Jamaica
• grey routes go somewhere else

And readily sort out which bus gets you where you need to go quickly, in the same manner that coloring the subway routes by trunk route also allows one to figure out which train gets them to which avenue, even if you are looking somewhere far out in Jamaica or Morris Park or Flatbush.

Lol... The concept of color coding something isn't lost on me & I get your concern/gripe... I simply don't see it remotely as much of an issue than you do, when it comes to how problematic the bus maps have gotten...

I'm not asking this to be snarky or anything like that (I honestly don't know), but was there any type of uproar or backlash on the forums/blogs/whatever, when the became the ? The change in routing, folks eventually came to appreciate/see the genius of (I'd say most folks around these parts hardly/never cared for the M along 4th anyway - myself included), but I'm simply asking about the change in the bullet color.....

29 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

Didn't the old rollsign buses use to have colors on the front rollsigns?

Yup... On the fishbowls in the '80's, one half of the rollsign was red & the other half was blue... Font color was white.... Both termini of the route were shown on each half of the rollsign.....

 

 

[Q43LTD]

On 4/30/2020 at 6:18 PM, Q101 E Midtown said:

I always wondered was why they never identified the stops for the express routes like they would for limited and select bus routes.

Add to that, Manhattan never showed the LTD stops. I'm with B35, a separate map should be made for the express buses

20 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

By destination is fairly simple. At least in Queens most buses could be grouped into the following

• LIC/Queens Plaza
• Rego Park
• Jackson Heights
• Jamaica
• Flushing
• Jamaica & Flushing
• Outer boroughs
• and other

This is no different than coloring according to the subway trunks, like today's subway map. The current approach is more akin to the 1972 Vignelli and its confusing color palette, particularly because there isn't any rhyme or reason as to why the routes are colored the way they are. 

Depots would be a terrible system, because your average rider doesn't have to give two shits about depots.

I know. I'm colorblind. The current map doesn't do me any favors, because some of the colors I have a hard time distinguishing.

The subway map also has its problems since it uses a similar color palette, but there the amount of overlap between potentially confusing colors is kept to a minimum. This hasn't been true of the bus maps.

This isn't strictly true. Right now the map text size is constrained by the need to keep lots of bands of colors on one street a reasonable width. If you can consolidate things into one thick line you can adjust text size proportionally.

I guess in your case for Brooklyn it would be Downtown Brooklyn, Ridgewood, Williamsburg, LIC/Queens Plaza and maybe Broadway Junction/ENY. Here in Orlando, the bus routes here are grouped by frequency of service. Maybe that could help a little?

12 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

The choice of colors & the lack of uniformity with where (or how) the colors are situated, isn't the problem with the maps IMO - it's that the amount of clutter steadily increases on them... I'm not trying to come off as being insensitive here, but trying to monochromatically depict routes by major destination won't exactly increase the quality of clarity either.... Seeing a bunch of purple lines radiating from Flushing, red lines from Jamaica, orange lines from Jackson Heights (for example) to me, is an unjustified grouping of bus routes...

Usually when routes are color coded in such a fashion. it tends to convey that the routes are all part of a particular trunk line (well.... like, the subway map)... This is why I never really cared for the coupling of the Q30/31 & the Q54/Q56, for example.... IDK man, I think you're putting way too much stock in the (lack of) reasoning behind the color choices of the routes..... I'm not seeing why there even has to be one; I mean, all of the routes that serve a certain major destination are not monolithic....

Yeah, a separate express map for SI suffices b/c its express bus network is more extensive.... However, I wouldn't go as far as to creating individual express bus maps for the other 3 outerboroughs... There would have to be some level of condensing involved, but I'd still combine Brooklyn/Bronx/Queens on one map....

Where things went south real quick with how cluttered the bus maps have gotten, was when they added the express routes.... That, and showing so many points of interests.... Next thing you know, there'll be those little black triangles on the map denoting Apple stores, Starbucks', & Whole Foods locations for f***s sake....

Well let's just hope it has nothing to do with any appeasing of insularity of (some of) its riders....

In any case, it's all the more reason why the portrayal of express lines needs to be extracted from the local maps...

I think it's just way too many insets on the Queens map now. I remember it was just Jamaica and Flushing. Now it's QCM, LIC/Queens Plaza. I guess it's an inset for the Rockaways? What next, an inset for Jackson Hts?

11 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Yeah, I don't see any problem with the scattering of colors about the map either... Right now it's only what - red, orange, purple, blue, skyblue, light green, and dark green for the expresses....

Now if they started adding sea green, pank (hot pink), dark brown, yellow, burgundy, macaroni, and a bunch of other goofy colors for the routes, at that point it'd be like yeah, ease up on the crayola shit....

I'm simply not seeing the need to correlate the color coding behind the subway lines & wanting to color code a bunch of bus routes that (as you've plainly stated) go all over the place.... With the subways, the color of the subway bullets are shown all throughout the subway system (platform signage, upon entry/exit of each station, on the trains themselves (well not so much on the newer fleets)), so it's far more relevant.... That, and there's only but so many Manhattan trunk lines & other lines like the , , , that are lone wolves (so to speak... lol).....

Coloring the Q24 line (for example) on the map as the same color as all the other routes that serve Jamaica, OTOH won't mean much of anything once you stop looking at the bus map.... On the current Queens map, I think it's skyblue IIRC... Now where on any bus operating as the Q24 do you see any inkling of a skyblue Q24 emblem?

(Although I will admit, I would like to see more color{s} on the destination signs themselves than just the lime green or orange - which, while petty enough, is one of the few things I liked about the introduction of SBS).....

The Q24 is light blue on the Queens map, orange on the Brooklyn. Remember when the  had LIB? Light blue in Queens, different colors in Nassau. 

[bobtehpanda]

2 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

I'm not asking this to be snarky or anything like that (I honestly don't know), but was there any type of uproar or backlash on the forums/blogs/whatever, when the became the ? The change in routing, folks eventually came to appreciate/see the genius of (I'd say most folks around these parts hardly/never cared for the M along 4th anyway - myself included), but I'm simply asking about the change in the bullet color.....

Disclaimer: I was a wee lad when that happened and I didn't run in these circles yet.

You do see some people in the subway proposals who want to run a brown for the sake of a brown existing, but these are also the same folks who'd like to see an  or a  or a  . But I think on balance people were actually pretty happy to gain direct access to Midtown, and the only people hurt by the  changes were the probably minimal ridership at LES-2nd Av.

[Q43LTD]

2 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Lol... The concept of color coding something isn't lost on me & I get your concern/gripe... I simply don't see it remotely as much of an issue than you do, when it comes to how problematic the bus maps have gotten...

I'm not asking this to be snarky or anything like that (I honestly don't know), but was there any type of uproar or backlash on the forums/blogs/whatever, when the became the ? The change in routing, folks eventually came to appreciate/see the genius of (I'd say most folks around these parts hardly/never cared for the M along 4th anyway - myself included), but I'm simply asking about the change in the bullet color.....

Yup... On the fishbowls in the '80's, one half of the rollsign was red & the other half was blue... Font color was white.... Both termini of the route were shown on each half of the rollsign.....

 

 

I thought blue was the streets the bus traveled and red was the destination

[B35 via Church]

6 hours ago, Q43LTD said:

Here in Orlando, the bus routes here are grouped by frequency of service. Maybe that could help a little?

Sorry breh, too much purple & orange for me

But hell, if the MTA wanted to portray route frequency on its bus maps, I would use different shapes (for the route number) over different line colors.... Much like what they did by using the pentagon to show weekday only services...

Just for shits & giggles, what's your "home" route out there?

7 hours ago, Q43LTD said:

I think it's just way too many insets on the Queens map now. I remember it was just Jamaica and Flushing. Now it's QCM, LIC/Queens Plaza. I guess it's an inset for the Rockaways? What next, an inset for Jackson Hts?

Queens map shows too much of Brooklyn IMO.... Maybe they should take that space & use it in increase the scale of the map a bit.... Could go towards eliminating the need for a Rego Park inset & an LIC inset.....

6 hours ago, Q43LTD said:

I thought blue was the streets the bus traveled and red was the destination

I don't remember which side of the rollsign had what information, but I do remember seeing B35 rollsigns with both the Sunset Park & the Brownsville destination shown on them...

[Q43LTD]

4 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Sorry breh, too much purple & orange for me

But hell, if the MTA wanted to portray route frequency on its bus maps, I would use different shapes (for the route number) over different line colors.... Much like what they did by using the pentagon to show weekday only services...

Just for shits & giggles, what's your "home" route out there?

Queens map shows too much of Brooklyn IMO.... Maybe they should take that space & use it in increase the scale of the map a bit.... Could go towards eliminating the need for a Rego Park inset & an LIC inset.....

I don't remember which side of the rollsign had what information, but I do remember seeing B35 rollsigns with both the Sunset Park & the Brownsville destination shown on them...

My home route is Link 37. Stops right across the street from my complex. 

Maybe it was just Queens then... That's how the transit bug bit me in the early '90's. 

[bobtehpanda]

11 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Sorry breh, too much purple & orange for me

But hell, if the MTA wanted to portray route frequency on its bus maps, I would use different shapes (for the route number) over different line colors.... Much like what they did by using the pentagon to show weekday only services...

Just for shits & giggles, what's your "home" route out there?

Queens map shows too much of Brooklyn IMO.... Maybe they should take that space & use it in increase the scale of the map a bit.... Could go towards eliminating the need for a Rego Park inset & an LIC inset.....

I don't remember which side of the rollsign had what information, but I do remember seeing B35 rollsigns with both the Sunset Park & the Brownsville destination shown on them...

IMO, other than color coding here are the things that I would do to make the map better:

• completely remove the street grid, which is such an unnecessary level of detail
• reorient the map towards "Manhattan north" and make the subway lines more apparent; most people unfamiliar with Queens, and heck a fair amount of people in Queens itself probably, are probably more familiar with a Manhattan-north oriented map
• Line width and route bullets reflect frequency. Some route bullets also have further details (peak only, weekday only, etc.)
• Nassau routes get deemphasized with thinner lines, similar to the railroads
• Express bus goes on the backside of the map
• Rockaways inset also gets punted to the back to increase space 

[bobtehpanda]

Some preliminary doodling on what that might look like.

At the very least, removal of the street grid that buses don't run on opens up a lot more space for bigger text.

[bobtehpanda]

One more thing to consider: by land area, Queens is double or size, or more, than the other boroughs other than Brooklyn.

To blow up the map to improve readability, we may want to split the Queens bus map in two, either a north south cleavage with Queens Blvd or a east-west cleavage along Main St. We might consider the same for Brooklyn.

[jaf0519]

1 hour ago, bobtehpanda said:

IMO, other than color coding here are the things that I would do to make the map better:

• completely remove the street grid, which is such an unnecessary level of detail
• reorient the map towards "Manhattan north" and make the subway lines more apparent; most people unfamiliar with Queens, and heck a fair amount of people in Queens itself probably, are probably more familiar with a Manhattan-north oriented map
• Line width and route bullets reflect frequency. Some route bullets also have further details (peak only, weekday only, etc.)
• Nassau routes get deemphasized with thinner lines, similar to the railroads
• Express bus goes on the backside of the map
• Rockaways inset also gets punted to the back to increase space 

I have to disagree with you on these points.

• The street grid is something i think the MTA does right. I am not a fan of NICE’s new map since they both removed the street grid aside from some major roads and removed the labels for the LIRR stations
• The Queens bus map is a BUS map. The subway isn’t the priority on it. The Queens bus map has probably never been Manhattan oriented, at least not since the 1980s, so why change it now
• I disagree with the line width denoting frequency. Systems like SEPTA have lines that are either red, green, or gray for 15, 30, or 60 minutes or less weekday frequency. Under the new redesign, Queens would have a lot of routes in the 2nd category and it would look empty in large sections of the borough like Middle Village or Eastern Queens outside of major corridors. As for the bullets, i think they should be more. For daily service use the square, for weekdays/and Saturdays only use the pentagon. For part time use the square with the split line like the Q5 branch to Rosedale LIRR, and for weekday rush hours only use both the pentagon and the part time line, like Nassau used to do under MTA LI Bus for routes like the N22A and N26.
• Nassau routes should be just as big as Queens and Brooklyn routes since they operate in Queens too. Plus some areas under the redesign would be NICE only but still in Queens, like Northern Blvd east of Marathon Pkwy (N20G), Hempstead Ave between Jamaica Ave and Springfield Blvd (N1/N6), Seagirt Blvd east of B. 19 St (N33, weekdays only).
• I would also say that as the LIRR is the only rail transit in much of the eastern half of the borough, it should be much more visible on the map, similar to the subway
• I would prefer express buses to receive a separate map since the back should be reserved for frequency tables for local routes.
• Rockaway being on the back would mean the pdf online would have part of Queens not covered since the back is a separate pdf

47 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

Some preliminary doodling on what that might look like.

At the very least, removal of the street grid that buses don't run on opens up a lot more space for bigger text.

My main problems with a map like this are:

• LIC would be way too crowded between the subway lines
• Why would you cut of the subway stops in Brooklyn if Queens bus routes enter Brooklyn, with some like the Q24 that go pretty far. It also makes the  look almost useless
• I know this is just an example, but how would a rider on the Q64 know that the Q64 turns down Parsons Blvd and 71 Ave heading east. This is similar to the draft map that the MTA released for Queens. The biggest problem i have with that map is that every route is reduced to straight lines. I would want to know the specific streets the bus go on, not the general area. Like with the Q65 on your map, one could get the impression that the bus goes on 164 St, 45 Ave, Bowne St, Sanford Ave to get to Kissena. What about the fact that the route also serves Pidgeon Meadow Rd and 162 St. You can’t tell with this style.

Sorry about the rant/long post 

[B35 via Church]

2 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

IMO, other than color coding here are the things that I would do to make the map better:

• completely remove the street grid, which is such an unnecessary level of detail
• reorient the map towards "Manhattan north" and make the subway lines more apparent; most people unfamiliar with Queens, and heck a fair amount of people in Queens itself probably, are probably more familiar with a Manhattan-north oriented map
• Line width and route bullets reflect frequency. Some route bullets also have further details (peak only, weekday only, etc.)
• Nassau routes get deemphasized with thinner lines, similar to the railroads
• Express bus goes on the backside of the map
• Rockaways inset also gets punted to the back to increase space 

1] You mean like they did for the NW-ern section of Nassau County on the Queens map (the way the Q46 & QM6/36 is depicted on Lakeville rd & Marcus av, I've always found to be nothing short of stupid)..... So I wouldn't go about removing the street/grid, but I would go about eliminating a lot (if not all) of the text showing the street names that buses aren't running on...

2] Yeah, the "lines" showing the subway lines should be embossed (akin to how higher elevations are portrayed on a topographic map) or something...

3] The bullets, fine.... The route lines, nah... The latter would make the maps more of an eyesore - even considering your suggestions... There's simply too many routes for this (esp. in Queens).... You could get away with something like that for the TOR routes (Rockland county), maybe.....

4] I would remove them outright.... Only mention of them would be in the service guide; where the frequencies & such are listed (the main streets of operation in Queens would be noted/added)....

5] If by this you mean a map of the express buses, how would the scale differ from that of the local bus map?

6] Agreed.

 

1 hour ago, bobtehpanda said:

Some preliminary doodling on what that might look like.

At the very least, removal of the street grid that buses don't run on opens up a lot more space for bigger text.

  Unless I'm missing something, looks like you basically want a basic outline....

 

37 minutes ago, jaf0519 said:

I have to disagree with you on these points.

• Nassau routes should be just as big as Queens and Brooklyn routes since they operate in Queens too. Plus some areas under the redesign would be NICE only but still in Queens, like Northern Blvd east of Marathon Pkwy (N20G), Hempstead Ave between Jamaica Ave and Springfield Blvd (N1/N6), Seagirt Blvd east of B. 19 St (N33, weekdays only).

____

• Rockaway being on the back would mean the pdf online would have part of Queens not covered since the back is a separate pdf

- Map-wise, NICE bus isn't (or shouldn't be) the MTA's problem - Just look at all those Queens routes shown on NICE's map !

- A page can be taken out of Bee-line's book here & just have the back of the map represent a second page on the PDF..... It doesn't have to be a whole separate PDF file.

 

 

[bobtehpanda]

38 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

1] You mean like they did for the NW-ern section of Nassau County on the Queens map (the way the Q46 & QM6/36 is depicted on Lakeville rd & Marcus av, I've always found to be nothing short of stupid)..... So I wouldn't go about removing the street/grid, but I would go about eliminating a lot (if not all) of the text showing the street names that buses aren't running on...

2] Yeah, the "lines" showing the subway lines should be embossed (akin to how higher elevations are portrayed on a topographic map) or something...

3] The bullets, fine.... The route lines, nah... The latter would make the maps more of an eyesore - even considering your suggestions... There's simply too many routes for this (esp. in Queens).... You could get away with something like that for the TOR routes (Rockland county), maybe.....

4] I would remove them outright.... Only mention of them would be in the service guide; where the frequencies & such are listed (the main streets of operation in Queens would be noted/added)....

5] If by this you mean a map of the express buses, how would the scale differ from that of the local bus map?

6] Agreed.

1] Major roads only is a fine compromise. Every multiple-of-ten street too if you wanna throw it in there. But in general you could remove a lot of it; no one gives a shit between 212 Pl and 212 Ct, and if you really care go get an atlas for yourself or use the maps application on your phone. 

3] I don't think so. Several other agencies already do this.

Minneapolis: https://www.metrotransit.org/system-map

Honolulu: http://www.thebus.org/SystemMap/TheBus2019SystemMap.pdf

Baltimore: https://s3.amazonaws.com/mta-website-staging/mta-website-staging/files/System Maps/Geographic_System_Map_02_2020.pdf

Seattle (busfan made): https://seattletransitmap.com/app/

DC does this, but I'm not gonna link the map because the DC system is so mind-bogglingly complex; think if the Q43 had like 9 different variations that started and ended slightly differently and that's how FUBAR it is.

These maps cover large service areas that in some cases are bigger than Queens County, and Queens is basically a big city if you count it by itself, so I think these are valid comparisons.

5] An express bus map would be the same scale, but because there would be so much less on it, you could do things like

• point out individual stops
• call out transfers to local buses (though, do people actually transfer from local to express bus in meaningful numbers?)
• even do one line per express bus (one color per is definitely not working; try looking at the Rego Park inset for the first time and figuring out which bus goes where)

[bobtehpanda]

1 hour ago, jaf0519 said:

I have to disagree with you on these points.

• The street grid is something i think the MTA does right. I am not a fan of NICE’s new map since they both removed the street grid aside from some major roads and removed the labels for the LIRR stations
• The Queens bus map is a BUS map. The subway isn’t the priority on it. The Queens bus map has probably never been Manhattan oriented, at least not since the 1980s, so why change it now
• I disagree with the line width denoting frequency. Systems like SEPTA have lines that are either red, green, or gray for 15, 30, or 60 minutes or less weekday frequency. Under the new redesign, Queens would have a lot of routes in the 2nd category and it would look empty in large sections of the borough like Middle Village or Eastern Queens outside of major corridors. As for the bullets, i think they should be more. For daily service use the square, for weekdays/and Saturdays only use the pentagon. For part time use the square with the split line like the Q5 branch to Rosedale LIRR, and for weekday rush hours only use both the pentagon and the part time line, like Nassau used to do under MTA LI Bus for routes like the N22A and N26.
• Nassau routes should be just as big as Queens and Brooklyn routes since they operate in Queens too. Plus some areas under the redesign would be NICE only but still in Queens, like Northern Blvd east of Marathon Pkwy (N20G), Hempstead Ave between Jamaica Ave and Springfield Blvd (N1/N6), Seagirt Blvd east of B. 19 St (N33, weekdays only).
• I would also say that as the LIRR is the only rail transit in much of the eastern half of the borough, it should be much more visible on the map, similar to the subway
• I would prefer express buses to receive a separate map since the back should be reserved for frequency tables for local routes.
• Rockaway being on the back would mean the pdf online would have part of Queens not covered since the back is a separate pdf

1) See above comments about court vs drive; no one actually cares when using the bus system; it's a bus map, not a road atlas

2) This is a classic case of MTA left-hand, right-hand foolishness. The bus and subway together are a system, with free transfers to boot. Maps are designed for people unfamiliar with the system as a whole. Judging by ridership numbers, business as usual is not working for the buses, so why is that a good goal to have?

3) You can define your own system. Personally, I think that 10/15/30/60 is a good map. 

More bullets is a recipe for absolute disaster. Humans can only do 7 things in short term memory at a time, so the more crazy the bullets become, the harder it is to remember what they all mean.

4) They hardly operate in Queens, it's a closed door service. I don't think they should be called out very prominently at all; in fact, I think calling them out as prominent as a regular bus route often leads to people getting on thinking they can get off in Queens.

5) TBH you could simplify the frequency tables a lot. They don't need the whole back of the page.

6) Multi-page PDFs exist. MTA is just bad at tech/maps in general.

54 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

  Unless I'm missing something, looks like you basically want a basic outline....

So this is obviously missing things like hospitals, street labels, route labels, etc because i whipped this up in 30 minutes and this isn't my day job.

But basically, by being judicious about what information we do have on the map, we can blow up the sizes of things on it, and thus make it so you don't need a magnifying glass to read the damn thing.

[checkmatechamp13]

I think the MTA had the right idea in the 4-color scheme for Queens. The purple routes feed into major hubs (and that is generally the closest/most direct hub on the route. For example, the QT40 (old Q4) logically goes to Jamaica (it doesn't go to Flushing or Rego Park). 

If a route connects two or more major hubs it is likely an orange grid route (e.g. QT16). And then green routes are generally the less frequent gap-filler routes. 

I'm not too wild about the idea of the blue routes. I don't think the QT1 should exist (just run more service on the QT69 and have people transfer to the to Brooklyn, and have something that replaces the Q103 on the northern portion of Vernon Blvd). The whole Sunnyside area needs to be redone, including the QT2. The QT3 either needs more stops, or just remove a few stops on the QT4 and call it a day. The QT4 I like the concept of but you could add a couple of local stops on 69th Street and shift the QT78 to 65th Place. The QT5 I can actually understand since the QT24/56 are nearby, the QT6 I actually like, and the QT7 should definitely have more stops on Linden Blvd (and should be either a green or orange route)

So the only blue routes I'd support keeping are the QT4/5/6, and at that point is it worth having a separate color for those 3? I suppose it would still help them stand out....

[B35 via Church]

1 hour ago, bobtehpanda said:

3] I don't think so. Several other agencies already do this.

Minneapolis: https://www.metrotransit.org/system-map

Honolulu: http://www.thebus.org/SystemMap/TheBus2019SystemMap.pdf

Baltimore: https://s3.amazonaws.com/mta-website-staging/mta-website-staging/files/System Maps/Geographic_System_Map_02_2020.pdf

Seattle (busfan made): https://seattletransitmap.com/app/

DC does this, but I'm not gonna link the map because the DC system is so mind-bogglingly complex; think if the Q43 had like 9 different variations that started and ended slightly differently and that's how FUBAR it is.

These maps cover large service areas that in some cases are bigger than Queens County, and Queens is basically a big city if you count it by itself, so I think these are valid comparisons.

Oh, I know the clusterf**k that WMATA's system is & the system map was an absolute eyesore to me (I say was, because IDK if they have an updated version of their maps or not)... Anyway, Honolulu's map doesn't look too bad, Minneapolis' map looks similiar to the Orlando map I linked earlier (post #1111); don't really care for how its structured/laid out, the only thing I like about that Seattle map is the font{s}, and WTF at that Baltimore map?!?!!

2 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

An express bus map would be the same scale, but because there would be so much less on it, you could do things like

• point out individual stops
• call out transfers to local buses (though, do people actually transfer from local to express bus in meaningful numbers?)
• even do one line per express bus (one color per is definitely not working; try looking at the Rego Park inset for the first time and figuring out which bus goes where)

No qualms here.... I would still go the extra mile though and create a separate express bus map....

Can't go wrong either way though; the fact of the matter is that having the express routes & the local routes on the same map excessively clutters the thing.

1 hour ago, bobtehpanda said:

So this is obviously missing things like hospitals, street labels, route labels, etc because i whipped this up in 30 minutes and this isn't my day job.

But basically, by being judicious about what information we do have on the map, we can blow up the sizes of things on it, and thus make it so you don't need a magnifying glass to read the damn thing.

I get that much (about not having more detailed additions to the thing), what I didn't get (to be quite honest) was the gist of what you were trying to portray with the map... Jaf's last bullet point of his critique/commentary helped *somewhat*.... It's why I'm generally peeved over half-assery of any sort.....

Anyway, yeah, the less shit you plaster on a map, the more conspicuous you can make the things that matter more on it.

[LGA Link N Train]

3 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

I think the MTA had the right idea in the 4-color scheme for Queens. The purple routes feed into major hubs (and that is generally the closest/most direct hub on the route. For example, the QT40 (old Q4) logically goes to Jamaica (it doesn't go to Flushing or Rego Park). 

I agree with you on this, though I personally would’ve used 5 colors and add Crosstown Routes as one of the categories alongside Frequency, “Limited-Zone”, Neighborhood Routes, and “SBS” (heavy emphasis on SBS because all of the blue routes seem to have some SBS/Limtied-like stopping pattern) 

If a route connects two or more major hubs it is likely an orange grid route (e.g. QT16). And then green routes are generally the less frequent gap-filler routes. 

I'm not too wild about the idea of the blue routes. I don't think the QT1 should exist (just run more service on the QT69 and have people transfer to the to Brooklyn, and have something that replaces the Q103 on the northern portion of Vernon Blvd). The whole Sunnyside area needs to be redone, including the QT2. The QT3 either needs more stops, or just remove a few stops on the QT4 and call it a day. The QT4 I like the concept of but you could add a couple of local stops on 69th Street and shift the QT78 to 65th Place. The QT5 I can actually understand since the QT24/56 are nearby, the QT6 I actually like, and the QT7 should definitely have more stops on Linden Blvd (and should be either a green or orange route)

I’m not sure if I’m with you on not adding the QT1. I’ve noticed a fair amount of opposition against that route, but personally I’m okay with it. I will have to admit that the QT77 is the only route coming from 21st Avenue that even touches the  at Van Alst in the current proposal. As for nothing covering Vernon Blvd between Broadway and 44th Drive, I’ll agree that the  messed up there. Now in regards to the QT78, how did I not think of that? Hopefully,  will make that change in their final plan. 

So the only blue routes I'd support keeping are the QT4/5/6, and at that point is it worth having a separate color for those 3? I suppose it would still help them stand out....

Replies are in bold. 

[bobtehpanda]

1 hour ago, B35 via Church said:

I get that much (about not having more detailed additions to the thing), what I didn't get (to be quite honest) was the gist of what you were trying to portray with the map... Jaf's last bullet point of his critique/commentary helped *somewhat*.... It's why I'm generally peeved over half-assery of any sort.....

Anyway, yeah, the less shit you plaster on a map, the more conspicuous you can make the things that matter more on it.

Yeah, it was a little too rushed.

In general, I guess the point I was trying to make, but forgot to actually elaborate, was that the version of the map I had made

• generally has bigger text now that stuff has moved out of the way
• and then the color system, which I know you yourself don't necessarily have issues with, but something something picture speaks a thousand words.

I agree that we should show every turn onto a new street, but we probably shouldn't show that, say, Merrick turns 15 degrees ever so slightly but you still stay on Merrick.

Edited May 3, 2020 by bobtehpanda

[bobtehpanda]

Here's a new map that hopefully shows the frequency stuff better. 

I'm not sure if I want to change this to be more Vignelli style (one route one line) rather than just the branching.

This type of map would be easier to make post-redesign, since a lot of the routings are "simplified".

Did anything happen after the first round of draft/public comment?

[Lawrence St]

3 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

Here's a new map that hopefully shows the frequency stuff better. 

I'm not sure if I want to change this to be more Vignelli style (one route one line) rather than just the branching.

This type of map would be easier to make post-redesign, since a lot of the routings are "simplified".

Did anything happen after the first round of draft/public comment?

It's been a while but a lot of people opposed the elimination of the Q53-SBS instead of the Q52-SBS as well as the merger of both southern Q11 branches and the Q21 IIRC.