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Lawrence St

Queens Bus Redesign Discussion Thread

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On 5/19/2020 at 9:33 PM, NewFlyer 230 said:

No not really, at most maybe two or three people ride past Jamaica Sutphin/Archer. A lot of people tend to ride the Q60 to and from South Jamaica as an alternative to the Q6 which tends to suffer from reliability issues and overcrowding. I think back in 2013 maybe before that the MTA made it where every other Q60 runs past Archer Ave. I’m surprised they didn’t continue to strip service away from South Jamaica. 

 

Then maybe that part of the Q60 should be replaced with short trips on the Q6 or Q40.

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11 minutes ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

Then maybe that part of the Q60 should be replaced with short trips on the Q6 or Q40.

Running buses between Sutphin (F) & 109th/157th?

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9 hours ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

 

Then maybe that part of the Q60 should be replaced with short trips on the Q6 or Q40.

That short turn for the Q40 would super short and useless. It would only have 7 stops with a run time of less than 10 minutes. I would add maybe a bus or two per hour to the Q6 and start them at Sutphin Blvd- Archer Ave.

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5 hours ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

That short turn for the Q40 would super short and useless. It would only have 7 stops with a run time of less than 10 minutes. I would add maybe a bus or two per hour to the Q6 and start them at Sutphin Blvd- Archer Ave.

I like how they have the Q40/QT46 helping out the Q6/QT20 to Linden, which is more useful than the setup now. (I think both the QT20/46 could use a boost in service in general but at least with the way they set it up, a good chunk of Sutphin gets a boost regardless of which of the two routes sees the increase)

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4 hours ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

That short turn for the Q40 would super short and useless. It would only have 7 stops with a run time of less than 10 minutes. I would add maybe a bus or two per hour to the Q6 and start them at Sutphin Blvd- Archer Ave.

All the Q6 riders getting on/off at random spots/stops along Jamaica av will be pissed, but I can understand streamlining Sutphin service a la the proposed QT20 (as the running narrative has been with this redesign though, the suggested service levels are a different story)..... Running Q40's between Sutphin (F) & 109th/157th would be highly wasteful & running Q6's from 165th terminal to 109th/157th wouldn't be much better..... Some would say Foch, but I'd say Q6's need to run down to Rockaway Blvd at minimum....

All things considered, the current Q60 terminal isn't that far off from Sutphin, to the point where it's absolutely necessary that a bus route terminates in that immediate vicinity.... Sure, nobody likes to lose direct service - however, this wouldn't be a case of significant coverage loss in the overall network.....

To sum up what I'm saying, supplemental Sutphin service (or any compromise to stripping the Q60 away from S. Jamaica) should run well south of 109th.... Starting additional SB Q6's at Sutphin/Archer suffices,...

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

I like how they have the Q40/QT46 helping out the Q6/QT20 to Linden, which is more useful than the setup now. (I think both the QT20/46 could use a boost in service in general but at least with the way they set it up, a good chunk of Sutphin gets a boost regardless of which of the two routes sees the increase)

True, but too bad it'd come at the expense of the Q41.... I'll explain.

Having QT46's turn off at Linden, meant having QT47's (retaining the current Q40's) turning off at Lakewood..... Centralizing service via 130th st. with the QT47 in the eastern portion of S. Ozone Park (compared to what the current Q9 does south of Liberty) meant doing away with buses running along 127th/128th..... Domino effect.

...and then there's leaving S. Ozone Park riders in that general area north of 109th/130th with that QT67 route (QT5 makes no stops b/w Lefferts Blvd. &  Sutphin (E)(J) & Lefferts blvd) - ughk.... The current backtracking of the Q112 to get to Jamaica proper is the pits, but having to rely on a bus going Liberty > Sutphin > Jamaica (av), swinging all the way out to/from LNP is a special kind of torture..... As CaitSith could tell you, there is a huge benefit to getting the heck out of Jamaica proper via 94th... But that's a whole 'nother topic...

QT46's will still get good ridership overall & QT47's are going to be even more of a little workhorse than the current Q9 is.... Somehow they're going to have both of those routes terminating at 164th/Hillside.... There's no need for all them dam buses they'd have funneling around & through Parsons (F) overall in this redesign..... Layover space would be a problem, but it still doesn't justify wastefully running the QT20, QT46, & QT47 past Sutphin (F).... The demand for areas east of Sutphin from [areas south] or [areas west] are clearly for along Jamaica av. & not along Hillside.... Hillside being nice & wide isn't (or shouldn't) an end-all be-all either; Jamaica av service & Hillside av service simply aren't interchangeable....

Edited by B35 via Church
damn spoiler tag.....

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Posted (edited)

@B35 via Church I think they were looking to do away with service on 127th Street anyway because it was too narrow (similar to 127th Street in College Point). So I don't think it's too bad, since at least route-wise there is still service to Jamaica (frequency-wise of course is a different story) Plus the southern end of 130th Street gets service to Jamaica (while still maintaining service to the (A) with the QT37) 

Though looking at the map again, I didn't realize they were going to cut the QT24 back to Sutphin/Archer. So I guess Ozone Park residents will have at least one relatively reliable route out of Jamaica (I'm still shocked they didn't cut it back to Broadway Junction on the western end). I do agree that there is no reason for all those routes to be ending by 164th & Hillside (presumably their compromise for closing 165th Street Bus Terminal) and especially via Hillside rather than Jamaica.

One of my coworkers takes the Q6 from Sutphin & Linden and says that every morning there is traffic approaching Archer Avenue. Maybe they can put in bus lanes to help the routes along that part of Sutphin. I mean it's not like some of the intersections by the Van Wyck where the highway traffic could cause an issue with putting bus lanes in.

My big thing with the South Ozone Park area is the lack of stops on the QT7. At a minimum I would add stops at 130th & 142nd Street (and probably also 111th Street)

Edited by checkmatechamp13

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18 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

@B35 via Church I think they were looking to do away with service on 127th Street anyway because it was too narrow (similar to 127th Street in College Point). So I don't think it's too bad, since at least route-wise there is still service to Jamaica (frequency-wise of course is a different story) Plus the southern end of 130th Street gets service to Jamaica (while still maintaining service to the (A) with the QT37) 

Though looking at the map again, I didn't realize they were going to cut the QT24 back to Sutphin/Archer. So I guess Ozone Park residents will have at least one relatively reliable route out of Jamaica (I'm still shocked they didn't cut it back to Broadway Junction on the western end). I do agree that there is no reason for all those routes to be ending by 164th & Hillside (presumably their compromise for closing 165th Street Bus Terminal) and especially via Hillside rather than Jamaica.

One of my coworkers takes the Q6 from Sutphin & Linden and says that every morning there is traffic approaching Archer Avenue. Maybe they can put in bus lanes to help the routes along that part of Sutphin. I mean it's not like some of the intersections by the Van Wyck where the highway traffic could cause an issue with putting bus lanes in.

My big thing with the South Ozone Park area is the lack of stops on the QT7. At a minimum I would add stops at 130th & 142nd Street (and probably also 111th Street)

Where did you hear that they are closing the 165th Street Bus Terminal? 

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

No can view, bud...... Access denied.

On 5/23/2020 at 6:25 PM, checkmatechamp13 said:

@B35 via Church I think they were looking to do away with service on 127th Street anyway because it was too narrow (similar to 127th Street in College Point). So I don't think it's too bad, since at least route-wise there is still service to Jamaica (frequency-wise of course is a different story) Plus the southern end of 130th Street gets service to Jamaica (while still maintaining service to the (A) with the QT37) 

Though looking at the map again, I didn't realize they were going to cut the QT24 back to Sutphin/Archer. So I guess Ozone Park residents will have at least one relatively reliable route out of Jamaica (I'm still shocked they didn't cut it back to Broadway Junction on the western end). I do agree that there is no reason for all those routes to be ending by 164th & Hillside (presumably their compromise for closing 165th Street Bus Terminal) and especially via Hillside rather than Jamaica.

One of my coworkers takes the Q6 from Sutphin & Linden and says that every morning there is traffic approaching Archer Avenue. Maybe they can put in bus lanes to help the routes along that part of Sutphin. I mean it's not like some of the intersections by the Van Wyck where the highway traffic could cause an issue with putting bus lanes in.

My big thing with the South Ozone Park area is the lack of stops on the QT7. At a minimum I would add stops at 130th & 142nd Street (and probably also 111th Street)

Oh, I'm aware that it's a part of a concerted attempt to take as many buses off virgin-tight streets as possible in this plan.... I guess what I'm ultimately getting at is, streamlining & reorganizing service in the eastern portion of S. Ozone Park the way they did, has it to where those folks have to endure (more of) Sutphin to get to Archer & points north and/or east... That's why I brought up 94th av..... It's not really a knock on the QT46/47 (I was one of the main people calling for a southward Q9 extension; albeit to Lefferts AIRTrain)..... Your co-worker's explanation reinforces what I'm saying & already knew (hence what I'm driving at).... I can easily see bus lanes being installed along Sutphin, but the question is - how far south should it pan & should rules expand past rush hour....

If the plan entails doing away with 165th terminal, Jamaica is going to become a larger Flushing with all these buses terminating on-street..... I'd go as far as to say that we can't afford to get rid of that bus terminal (even with the dwindled amount of service they're suggesting these routes have, in comparison to the current amt. of BPH rolling around & about in Jamaica).....

As far as the QT7 is concerned, there are simply more S. Ozone Park folks heading up towards Jamaica, than there are shooting over to Rockaway Park (A).... I don't see this route really changing that attitude/phenomena/need.... Those folks are hardly trying to get to Brooklyn or SE Queens en masse.... I believe I said in an older post that I'd like to see more people taking it between both boroughs than that of the Q8 (where the vast majority of Brooklyn patronage is within some two points in Brooklyn)... If the only stop in Brooklyn's going to be Gateway Mall, then I can safely say sayonara to that notion.... Also, swinging way out to Springfield Blvd. is too desperate an attempt.... While it could singularly stand to have more stops in S. Ozone Park, I ultimately see this route/concept failing....

Edited by B35 via Church

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

Alright, try now.

 

Geez, google updated their stuff.

There's gotta be a way you can change that valentine's day themed map color.... All that dam pink is murder.

Anyway, yeah, that's a good way to split the QT54 (Fresh Pond rd. from the east & Forest Hills subway from the west)

Edited by B35 via Church

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6 hours ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

 

Maybe have one or both loop through Atlas Park?

Bring QT54 eastern terminal closer to 165th Street Terminal for connections.

 

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15 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

There's gotta be a way you can change that valentine's day themed map color.... All that dam pink is murder.

Anyway, yeah, that's a good way to split the QT54 (Fresh Pond rd. from the east & Forest Hills subway from the west)

Changed it. 

16 minutes ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

 

Maybe have one or both loop through Atlas Park?

Bring QT54 eastern terminal closer to 165th Street Terminal for connections.

 

There’s not much over at Atlas Park. And the reason I routed the QT54 to Jamaica Center is for the bus connections there in addition to connecting to Jamaica Center Subway Station on the (E) and (J)(Z) 

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24 minutes ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

And the reason I routed the QT54 to Jamaica Center is for the bus connections there in addition to connecting to Jamaica Center Subway Station on the (E) and (J)(Z) 

The Q54 has been kept on Jamaica Avenue all these years specifically for the walkable bus connections to/from both Archer/Parsons and 165th Street Terminal. 

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On 5/23/2020 at 6:45 PM, jaf0519 said:

Where did you hear that they are closing the 165th Street Bus Terminal? 

I remember it being brought up at the meeting back in Jamaica in January. I could've misunderstood but I believe they mentioned they were closing it.

4 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Oh, I'm aware that it's a part of a concerted attempt to take as many buses off virgin-tight streets as possible in this plan.... I guess what I'm ultimately getting at is, streamlining & reorganizing service in the eastern portion of S. Ozone Park the way they did, has it to where those folks have to endure (more of) Sutphin to get to Archer & points north and/or east... That's why I brought up 94th av..... It's not really a knock on the QT46/47 (I was one of the main people calling for a southward Q9 extension; albeit to Lefferts AIRTrain)..... Your co-worker's explanation reinforces what I'm saying & already knew (hence what I'm driving at).... I can easily see bus lanes being installed along Sutphin, but the question is - how far south should it pan & should rules expand past rush hour....

If the plan entails doing away with 165th terminal, Jamaica is going to become a larger Flushing with all these buses terminating on-street..... I'd go as far as to say that we can't afford to get rid of that bus terminal (even with the dwindled amount of service they're suggesting these routes have, in comparison to the current amt. of BPH rolling around & about in Jamaica).....

As far as the QT7 is concerned, there are simply more S. Ozone Park folks heading up towards Jamaica, than there are shooting over to Rockaway Park (A).... I don't see this route really changing that attitude/phenomena/need.... Those folks are hardly trying to get to Brooklyn or SE Queens en masse.... I believe I said in an older post that I'd like to see more people taking it between both boroughs than that of the Q8 (where the vast majority of Brooklyn patronage is within some two points in Brooklyn)... If the only stop in Brooklyn's going to be Gateway Mall, then I can safely say sayonara to that notion.... Also, swinging way out to Springfield Blvd. is too desperate an attempt.... While it could singularly stand to have more stops in S. Ozone Park, I ultimately see this route/concept failing....

Hopefully they do extend the QT47 to Lefferts AirTrain or Federal Circle. The proposed terminal is in the middle of nothing in particular (I believe there is a Sanitation Garage around there). 

And yeah they said Jamaica/Merrick was just a general idea for where they would terminate those buses that used to end at 165th Street. As I said I could be wrong but my understanding was they planned to close that terminal.

Thinking about it, it almost seems like they are thinking of Linden Blvd in Queens the same way as Linden Blvd in ENY (a super-wide street where the concept of a super-limited might make sense). The thing I do like about this route is that it makes it easier to get from SE Queens to Downtown Brooklyn & Lower Manhattan via the (A) instead of forcing everyone to go up to Jamaica for the (J) or LIRR (I know with Freedom Ticket it makes the LIRR more attractive than before but I still). I'd be curious to see how much of the demand from that portion of SE Queens is actually for Jamaica itself vs. people who would be willing to (or even preferring to) transfer in another area. 

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The 165th St terminal would be one of their easier spots to sell off into a developable parcel. So this doesn't surprise me, 

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On 5/24/2020 at 11:58 PM, checkmatechamp13 said:

Hopefully they do extend the QT47 to Lefferts AirTrain or Federal Circle. The proposed terminal is in the middle of nothing in particular (I believe there is a Sanitation Garage around there). 

And yeah they said Jamaica/Merrick was just a general idea for where they would terminate those buses that used to end at 165th Street. As I said I could be wrong but my understanding was they planned to close that terminal.

Thinking about it, it almost seems like they are thinking of Linden Blvd in Queens the same way as Linden Blvd in ENY (a super-wide street where the concept of a super-limited might make sense). The thing I do like about this route is that it makes it easier to get from SE Queens to Downtown Brooklyn & Lower Manhattan via the (A) instead of forcing everyone to go up to Jamaica for the (J) or LIRR (I know with Freedom Ticket it makes the LIRR more attractive than before but I still). I'd be curious to see how much of the demand from that portion of SE Queens is actually for Jamaica itself vs. people who would be willing to (or even preferring to) transfer in another area. 

The proposed QT47 terminal is where the current Q10 short turns end.... There's a hotel, a homeless shelter, and some kind of food catering service over there... That stop actually gets decent usage & it's not primarily DSNY workers....

For what you're saying at the end there, well the question I'd have for any SE Queens patron willing/preferring to do that (outside of specifically getting to somewhere in Brooklyn on the (A)) is, for what purpose..... Rockaway Blvd isn't exactly empty (which is actually a problem I have with that station; the platform is too narrow), the (A) isn't that much faster than the (J) if it's about getting to Lower Manhattan, sure as hell can't be about safety, the reliability of the (A) (vs. that of the (J) or the (E)/(F))? IDK.... Which is why I'd ask for what reason would they want to make that sacrifice....

Even if you have people that are sick of having to deal with Jamaica as a pipeline, I don't see any significant amt. of people currently taking buses to Jamaica (that aren't specifically trying to get to some establishment in Jamaica) swinging way out to Ozone Park for the subway.... I hate to put it like this, but this is where sucking it up beats the alternative they'd try to push (if infact that's part of what's trying to be accomplished with the QT7)....

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I noticed a problem with the QT1, if it operates 24/7 overnight, how is the route going to be detoured if the Navy Yard is closed during the night?

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@B35 via Church I was thinking along the lines of people trying to avoid the chaos in Jamaica (like all the different bus bays at Jamaica Center and how the routes are split up, though I suppose you get used to it if you take certain routes often enough)

I dunno I'd say the (A) is noticably faster than the (J) (of course the fact that it is express certainly helps boost the illusion but I'd still say there is a noticable difference). The (J) takes about 50 minutes end-to-end (when I take it, it is usually the full route, all-or-nothing lol), whereas the (A) takes about 30-35 minutes from Lower Manhattan to Rockaway Blvd. Rockaway Blvd may be slightly further from most of SE Queens but I think it would still be a slight time savings and generate respectable ridership.

@Lawrence St I thought it ran along Park Avenue along with the QT4.

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2 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

@B35 via Church I was thinking along the lines of people trying to avoid the chaos in Jamaica (like all the different bus bays at Jamaica Center and how the routes are split up, though I suppose you get used to it if you take certain routes often enough)

I dunno I'd say the (A) is noticably faster than the (J) (of course the fact that it is express certainly helps boost the illusion but I'd still say there is a noticable difference). The (J) takes about 50 minutes end-to-end (when I take it, it is usually the full route, all-or-nothing lol), whereas the (A) takes about 30-35 minutes from Lower Manhattan to Rockaway Blvd. Rockaway Blvd may be slightly further from most of SE Queens but I think it would still be a slight time savings and generate respectable ridership.

@Lawrence St I thought it ran along Park Avenue along with the QT4.

Well it doesn't say what the exact route is, but it says it stops at the Navy Yard. 

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24 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

I noticed a problem with the QT1, if it operates 24/7 overnight, how is the route going to be detoured if the Navy Yard is closed during the night?

 

13 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

Well it doesn't say what the exact route is, but it says it stops at the Navy Yard. 

If you look at the enlarged bus map in draft plan document, it shows it running on Park Avenue with the QT4. Also, where does it say it stops at the Navy Yard. All I see is the Downtown Brooklyn terminal as the only determined stop. 

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3 minutes ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

 

If you look at the enlarged bus map in draft plan document, it shows it running on Park Avenue with the QT4. Also, where does it say it stops at the Navy Yard. All I see is the Downtown Brooklyn terminal as the only determined stop. 

I have no idea where it says it stops by the Navy Yard. I would imagine it since it would be a limited route that it would stop on Park Ave maybe near the Clinton Ave gate since its also close to any potential connections to a Vanderbilt Ave bus route in the Brooklyn redesign.

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