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Deucey

Supposedly R32s are now retired

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I got this from Reddit, but couldn’t find this on (MTA).info.

Def an employee memo, if legit. (Locking if this isn’t true.)

F5-AF1-B7-F-57-E4-489-B-915-B-ECD6-A10-B

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I'm not surprised. Even after we get past the COVID service reductions, the 32s would only be around as a buffer for another catastrophic failure of the 179s, which is not a good enough reason for retention unfortunately. They should keep a few sets on property just in case, but they cannot keep the entire fleet in revenue inactive simply on the chance that something may happen with the 179s. These new cars need to prove their worth as that was the whole point of buying them.

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45 minutes ago, Lance said:

I'm not surprised. Even after we get past the COVID service reductions, the 32s would only be around as a buffer for another catastrophic failure of the 179s, which is not a good enough reason for retention unfortunately. They should keep a few sets on property just in case, but they cannot keep the entire fleet in revenue inactive simply on the chance that something may happen with the 179s. These new cars need to prove their worth as that was the whole point of buying them.

Welcome back (for however long we have you)!!

I miss your blog.

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Posted (edited)

Here's a readable version of that message: https://www.reddit.com/r/nycrail/comments/g7rc8p/r32_officially_retired_i_always_hated_seeing_one/

 

I personally am glad the R32's will meet their end now, since ridership has declined, the R179's have been getting more reliable and R211's will be rolling through city tunnels in just a couple of years. R32's will be missed, but times must go on; and I imagine the agency would be relieved at not having to maintain them ever again (at least for revenue service). 

Edited by NoHacksJustKhaks
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16 minutes ago, NoHacksJustKhaks said:

Here's a readable version of that message: https://www.reddit.com/r/nycrail/comments/g7rc8p/r32_officially_retired_i_always_hated_seeing_one/

 

I personally am glad the R32's will meet their end now, since ridership has declined, the R179's have been getting more reliable and R211's will be rolling through city tunnels in just a couple of years. R32's will be missed, but times must go on; and I imagine the agency would be relieved at not having to maintain them ever again (at least for revenue service). 

In before some R32 fan goes "the R32s are so reliable tho", MBDF be damned.

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I'll move my post over from the fleet swap thread:

The interesting point in this document is the information about the peak requirements. S-700 is the coronavirus supplemental schedule, and the math they're doing here really makes sense only for covid equipment needs. You wouldn't allow for a 182-car decrease in fleet size under peak capacity, and it's bewildering to me that they think the fleet can run at peak capacity (once we're past this crisis) without the arrival of the R211 class. Particularly given the fact that the A's base fleet are a significant number of aging R46s reporting worse MBDF by the year, and the C would have to rely on a single car class to run 8-car trains. This much never in the cards, from my understanding – just the gradual phasing out of R32s until they were a hold fleet in the meantime. After the R42 fiasco, we have proof that nothing sticks until it sticks, and we'll have to see what happens in the coming months. Service requirements are unlikely to return to normal for at least another year, possibly longer, but the R211 delivery and scrap schedules are probably going to be in odd shape as well. We'll see if they actually strip or remove any R32s from the premises, but at this point even the formally retired R42s are yet to be stripped and are sitting in the yards. I'm starting to think the MTA is planning on diminished equipment needs for 12-14 months, and they're just thinking it'll roll into the arrival of the R211s. That would truly allow for the 32s retiring, because no other timeline adds up.

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There were 272 combined R32 and R42.  There are 318 R179's, and they're more reliable, so even more are actually available at any given time.  Is it really a surprise that the R32's are retired?

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1 hour ago, NoHacksJustKhaks said:

Here's a readable version of that message: https://www.reddit.com/r/nycrail/comments/g7rc8p/r32_officially_retired_i_always_hated_seeing_one/

 

I personally am glad the R32's will meet their end now, since ridership has declined, the R179's have been getting more reliable and R211's will be rolling through city tunnels in just a couple of years. R32's will be missed, but times must go on; and I imagine the agency would be relieved at not having to maintain them ever again (at least for revenue service). 

The title of that Reddit thread is comedy

 

"Rest in hell with that R42"

 

LMAO

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1 hour ago, trainfan22 said:

The title of that Reddit thread is comedy

 

"Rest in hell with that R42"

 

LMAO

She's a C/R so her reasons for getting rid of them are fair. No more switching cabs, random breezes because of the rotting frame cracks, horrible speakers, screechy brakes/hearing damage, A/C broken in the dead of summer, no door chimes, and depending on which train she's working, 4 or 5-car set, she may have to stand the whole time. LOL

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Collin said:

There were 272 combined R32 and R42.  There are 318 R179's, and they're more reliable, so even more are actually available at any given time.  Is it really a surprise that the R32's are retired?

That's not the right comparison. You had 272 R32/R42 stock for 8-car service. Now you have 188 R179 stock for 8-car service, 130 R179 stock for 10-car service. The number of cars for 8-car consists has decreased by 84 cars. This is point I was trying to make about fleet compatibility. The ENY pool cannot utilize any other rolling stock besides the R143 class, which really should be dedicated to (L) service, since every other fleet is 75-feet. The 207th pool is also limited, unless the (C) starts to run mixed-length consists (undesirable, particularly with the crew needs at 168th for R46s). Likewise, the 8-car sets can't help out with the 10-car service needs on any line. There's a real loss of flexibility. So, yes, it is really a surprise that the R32s would be retired without the R211 arrival, and I can only imagine this is based on the assumption that service demands will stay diminished for another 12-24 months.

Edited by MHV9218
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Think they'll keep a 10 car set to do a farewell run? Of all the cars, The R32s deserve a farewell run the most. (Albeit prob in like 2 years from now).

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1 minute ago, Q23 via 108 said:

Think they'll keep a 10 car set to do a farewell run? Of all the cars, The R32s deserve a farewell run the most. (Albeit prob in like 2 years from now).

Honestly, I think they'll be keeping a lot more than that. Nothing is getting scrapped right now in the first place, and my hunch is they'll keep this fleet around in the event that service needs rise before the 211s arrive. It'll all depend on what the city (and subway) recovery looks like. If we really do have a vaccine next spring and the 211s are not on property, they'll need the 32s. Any other turn of events, they're able to get by without them.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Collin said:

There were 272 combined R32 and R42.  There are 318 R179's, and they're more reliable, so even more are actually available at any given time.  Is it really a surprise that the R32's are retired?

Like MHV9218 said, it is only 188 R179s that are arranged in four-car sets (meaning two four-car trains make up an eight-car train of 480 feet long), but they are not enough to fully retire 272 combined R32s and R42s in four-car sets. Keep in mind that the (C) is the only mainline B Division line to be 480 feet long (8-car trainsets) just like the BMT Eastern Division’s (J)(Z)(L)(M) lines are.

Also keep in mind that the (C) runs a total of 18 trainsets, mathematically that is a total of 144 cars. 207th Street Yard has a total of 88 R179s to cover half of the (C) fleet. Now that the R32s are gone, they will have to use the R46s to cover the remaining portion of the (C) fleet. Pitkin Avenue Yard currently has a total of 354 R46s (240 cars for the (A) and 12 cars for the Rockaway Park Shuttle). The rest are spares, with the remaining (A) fleet being those 130 R179s arranged in five-car sets (meaning two five-car trainsets make up a ten-car train of 600 feet long). Now if the (C) eats into more of the R46s from Pitkin Avenue Yard, that leaves only 30 R46 cars as spares. In other words, a reduced spare factor and not even for all three lines. Under normal circumstances, the average spare factor is 27% (five spare trainsets total). But now that the R32s are retired (partially because of the ongoing pandemic causing a severe ridership loss which in turn is causing a severe lack of money), I guess all that does not matter now...at least for the time being. Overall, under normal circumstances, retiring the R32s before the R211s come is a really bad idea. I noticed in general some people suggested some R46s from Coney Island Yard to be pulled over to Pitkin Avenue Yard, but they cannot for obvious reasons and the aforementioned reasons.

That is the entire point...

Edited by Jemorie
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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, Jemorie said:

Like MHV9218 said, it is only 188 R179s that are arranged in four-car sets (meaning two four-car trains make up an eight-car train of 480 feet long), but they are not enough to fully retire 272 combined R32s and R42s in four-car sets. Keep in mind that the (C) is the only mainline B Division line to be 480 feet long (8-car trainsets) just like the BMT Eastern Division’s (J)(Z)(L)(M) lines are.

Also keep in mind that the (C) runs a total of 18 trainsets, mathematically that is a total of 144 cars. 207th Street Yard has a total of 88 R179s to cover half of the (C) fleet. Now that the R32s are gone, they will have to use the R46s to cover the remaining portion of the (C) fleet. Pitkin Avenue Yard currently has a total of 354 R46s (240 cars for the (A) and 12 cars for the Rockaway Park Shuttle). The rest are spares, with the remaining (A) fleet being those 130 R179s arranged in five-car sets (meaning two five-car trainsets make up a ten-car train of 600 feet long). Now if the (C) eats into more of the R46s from Pitkin Avenue Yard, that leaves only 30 R46 cars as spares. In other words, a reduced spare factor and not even for all three lines. Under normal circumstances, the average spare factor is 27% (five spare trainsets total). But now that the R32s are retired (partially because of the ongoing pandemic causing a severe ridership loss which in turn is causing a severe lack of money), I guess all that does not matter now...at least for the time being. Overall, under normal circumstances, retiring the R32s before the R211s come is a really bad idea. I noticed in general some people suggested some R46s from Coney Island Yard to be pulled over to Pitkin Avenue Yard, but they cannot for obvious reasons and the aforementioned reasons.

That is the entire point...

The (A) uses 29 R46s in total as the one train to make 30 is the R68/A from the (B) during the PM rush. 

If the (C) is returning using the R46, 7 will be in use. 6 out of the 43.4 are leftovers. 

Edited by Calvin

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1 hour ago, Calvin said:

The (A) uses 29 R46s in total as the one train to make 30 is the R68/A from the (B) during the PM rush. 

If the (C) is returning using the R46, 7 will be in use. 6 out of the 43.4 are leftovers.

So in other words during the AM peak, the remaining nine 600’ trainsets for the (A) are R179s, with one extra 600’ train of another R179 added alongside that R68/A in the PM peak.

Having the (C) be half-ass seems like a pretty boneheaded move on this agency’s part, but what else can I say. 😒 As for the leftover thing, yeah that’s a severe reduced spare factor at Pitkin Avenue Yard for all three lines in question - the  (A)(C)(S). Each individual line is suppose to be on average 27% on spare trainsets, but of course now all that is thrown out the window till the R211s. Under normal circumstances, the (A) would need more than just 5 spare trains since the R46s are 45 years old and the second oldest cars in the system after the SIR R44s. But now with the R32s retired because of this forced decision, that too is also thrown out the window till the R211s.

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When the R211's start to be delivered, I think they will first go to Pitkin and 207th, increasing the spare factor back to what it should be.  After that, the (C) should be made full length, with the 480 foot R179's sent to ENY for additional service, or Coney Island to lengthen the (G) to 480 feet.  So this really is only a temporary problem.  It will definitely be confusing in the meantime having different train lengths on the (C).

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11 hours ago, Collin said:

When the R211's start to be delivered, I think they will first go to Pitkin and 207th, increasing the spare factor back to what it should be.  After that, the (C) should be made full length, with the 480 foot R179's sent to ENY for additional service, or Coney Island to lengthen the (G) to 480 feet.  So this really is only a temporary problem.  It will definitely be confusing in the meantime having different train lengths on the (C).

Agreed.

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Posted (edited)

You’re all right with regard to under-ordering of 4-car sets. For right now; there would be sufficient subway cars to support ENYs specific car requirements for 8-car trains on the (J)(M)(Z) and (L), even if Queens Blvd CBTC went online and the R160s that are available would need to go exclusively for (M) service and additional R160s would need to go to the (L) for the substation related service increases. And the R179s could be sent straight to the (J) to fill in any car shortages.

The R211 order is now expected to be again a mix of 4-car and 5-car sets because of the constant under-ordering of subway cars and the fact that the (G) will not need 600’ trains for the foreseeable future, but the (C) could have the opportunity to get 600’ trains

 

as for the spare factor, a previous post stated that there were 352 R46s at Pitkin, leaving 96 cars as spares after 240 go to daily (A) service and 12 go to Rockaway (S) service.

96 cars = 12 trains.

assuming 32 of those 96 cars are spared for the (A) and 8 are spares for the (S), this leaves 56 cars available for the (C). With the normal R179 assignments on the (C), 72 are in service and 16 are in spares, leaving a requirement of 96 R46s needed for the (C) (72 for service and 24 as spares).

 

Some R46s from Coney Island would need to be transferred to Pitkin when full subway service is restored just to make service, and Concourse would need to lose and additional 4 R68 cars, and maybe Jamaica take a small hit and leave a few additional R160s behind (total about 150 cars due to advanced age and more importantly, shortage of the R46s) until the R211s arrive. Remember the original QB CBTC required ALL 5-car R160s with the exception of 40 cars, and currently, 110 R160Bs stayed behind. 

Edited by darkstar8983
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Right, as your post is suggesting, the math on this only works if we assume <80% service guidelines, with the (C) either suspended or significantly reduced. Depending on how this recovery goes (and we can expect a second wave this fall/winter), it's certainly possible that the whole system will maintain that diminished service for 12-24 months, and then their math works out. If service is restored before the R211 order arrives, the R32s will have to be reactivated. There's no real way around it. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, MHV9218 said:

Right, as your post is suggesting, the math on this only works if we assume <80% service guidelines, with the (C) either suspended or significantly reduced. Depending on how this recovery goes (and we can expect a second wave this fall/winter), it's certainly possible that the whole system will maintain that diminished service for 12-24 months, and then their math works out. If service is restored before the R211 order arrives, the R32s will have to be reactivated. There's no real way around it. 

 

This is exactly what i was thinking

 

and i don't know why if things go back to normal, why can't they just run longer (G) trains to spread out the crowds. the (C) is a mixed bag because they have the 8 car R179's. even when all of this is over alot of people will still use the subway. question is if they'll have enough manpower?

 

this is why retiring anything right now is a dumb idea, They should have said the R32's are on reserve and if service doesn't meet demand then they will be retired.

Edited by R32 3838
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I personally think as I’ve said before it was foolish to order 8 car sets for the (C) especially if the MTA plans on eventually make the line full length. At least with full length R179 cars there wouldn’t be mix length trains running on the line. Maybe they could possibly order C cars to make them into 10 car sets but honestly I doubt they would ever do this. 
I don’t think the R32’s are going anywhere for now and things could always change. I don’t think the MTA wants to use them if they don’t have to, but if multiple R179s and R46s have issues an R32 could be thrown into service. 

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6 hours ago, MHV9218 said:

Right, as your post is suggesting, the math on this only works if we assume <80% service guidelines, with the (C) either suspended or significantly reduced. Depending on how this recovery goes (and we can expect a second wave this fall/winter), it's certainly possible that the whole system will maintain that diminished service for 12-24 months, and then their math works out. If service is restored before the R211 order arrives, the R32s will have to be reactivated. There's no real way around it. 

another problem is that while the 211s will also possibly get a minor delay due to the virus the majority of them will not be in service until fall-winter 2021 (possibly even early 2022 due to the virus) because they need to test. even if they do arrive (not enter service) as scheduled during the summer it would not matter considering the MTA would not have that many crews to commence testing it assuming that this goes on past summer. you are certainly right however that if service needs remain this low for the foreseeable future it it reasonable to retire the R32s. 

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1 hour ago, Coney Island Av said:

another problem is that while the 211s will also possibly get a minor delay due to the virus the majority of them will not be in service until fall-winter 2021 (possibly even early 2022 due to the virus) because they need to test. even if they do arrive (not enter service) as scheduled during the summer it would not matter considering the MTA would not have that many crews to commence testing it assuming that this goes on past summer. you are certainly right however that if service needs remain this low for the foreseeable future it it reasonable to retire the R32s. 

1. I think the Kawasaki Plant will reopen soon because it is out of NYS.

2. Cuomo will likely consider this an essential service to restore and will shift priority to CBTC and R211 production, so they won't likely be delayed too much.

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