Is Cuomo’s Overnight Subway Closure a Sneak Attack on Full 24-7 Service?

[Around the Horn]

1 hour ago, B35 via Church said:

The ignorance & the taking-for-granted of graveyard shifters has long been a societal thing..... Once upon a time, it was mass produced to the public that the freaks come out at night

3rd shifters are nowhere near as respected near as much as the 1st shifters....

And especially if your commute is between multiple boroughs... good luck without the subway.

[mrsman]

MTA needs a far better EXPRESS nighttime bus service.  If something were planned better, they could probably accommodate the nighttime users.

 

[B35 via Church]

4 hours ago, Around the Horn said:

And especially if your commute is between multiple boroughs... good luck without the subway.

31 minutes ago, mrsman said:

MTA needs a far better EXPRESS nighttime bus service.  If something were planned better, they could probably accommodate the nighttime users.

Well at minimum, this crisis exposed how weak the inter-borough aspect of the local bus network is.

[GojiMet86]

33 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

Well at minimum, this crisis exposed how weak the inter-borough aspect of the local bus network is.

Look forward to having the QT1, QT2, and Q61 being implemented.

[B35 via Church]

36 minutes ago, GojiMet86 said:

Look forward to having the QT1, QT2, and Q61 being implemented.

Just the QT1 for me, but yeah, I'm well aware of the redesign....

[Wallyhorse]

18 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

A non-sequitur if I ever saw one....

The MTA's primary reason for shutting down the subway system during overnight hours wasn't to launch some covert attack on the homeless..... Shutting down the subway system isn't going to get whatever amount of people that didn't use the subway (due to the homeless) during those hours, to up & use the subway....

In case you forgot, the homeless was a BIG problem that made it impossible for many to use the subways AT ALL because it was becoming a serious health hazard due to the MTA not being able to run as many trains and as a result have the homeless in every car in some cases, in many cases with belongings piled high and so forth.  This was becoming a MAJOR problem and the MTA had no choice as that likely is the only LEGAL way the MTA can remove the homeless from the system, at least long enough to properly clean cars and so forth.  

[B35 via Church]

49 minutes ago, Wallyhorse said:

In case you forgot, the homeless was a BIG problem that made it impossible for many to use the subways AT ALL because it was becoming a serious health hazard due to the MTA not being able to run as many trains and as a result have the homeless in every car in some cases, in many cases with belongings piled high and so forth.  This was becoming a MAJOR problem and the MTA had no choice as that likely is the only LEGAL way the MTA can remove the homeless from the system, at least long enough to properly clean cars and so forth.  

Parroting the original premise under the supposed guise that I'm forgetting something, is not an argument....

Look, a grand total of no one is disputing there being a problem with the homeless within the subway system... However, you lead off that diatribe talking about how the homeless made it impossible for many to use the subways.... Ok, great... Now riddle me this - Just how does shutting down the subway system for passenger consumption overnights, make the subway more usable for those that felt that the homeless "made it impossible for many to use the subways AT ALL" during those hours?

Edited June 27, 2020 by B35 via Church

[Lex]

This ultimatum of "shiny shit or (semi-)functional shit" is hilariously bad.

I'd take the 24-hour service any day of the week over having overnight closures for "cleaning", especially since the trains will still be rolling.

[bobtehpanda]

10 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Parroting the original premise under the supposed guise that I'm forgetting something, is not an argument....

Look, a grand total of no one is disputing there being a problem with the homeless within the subway system... However, you lead off that diatribe talking about how the homeless made it impossible for many to use the subways.... Ok, great... Now riddle me this - Just how does shutting down the subway system for passenger consumption overnights, make the subway more usable for those that felt that the homeless "made it impossible for many to use the subways AT ALL" during those hours?

They have free hands to hold the poles now that they're not clutching their pearls

 

[B35 via Church]

9 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

They have free hands to hold the poles now that they're not clutching their pearls

....just not the ones on the train

 

[Wallyhorse]

19 hours ago, Lex said:

This ultimatum of "shiny shit or (semi-)functional shit" is hilariously bad.

I'd take the 24-hour service any day of the week over having overnight closures for "cleaning", especially since the trains will still be rolling.

That's not the issue.

It's likely the only LEGAL way the MTA can pull the homeless off the system to at least cut down on the problem without being sued by the ACLU.  THAT is the real problem. 

[Lex]

3 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

That's not the issue.

It's likely the only LEGAL way the MTA can pull the homeless off the system to at least cut down on the problem without being sued by the ACLU.  THAT is the real problem. 

That's merely an indictment of the government's failures. Using the homeless as an excuse to shut the entire thing to the public is obvious bullshit.

[B35 via Church]

On 6/26/2020 at 2:54 AM, Wallyhorse said:

And it makes sense.  The fact the Homeless at one point before they started closing the system down made it impossible for many people to use the subways at all and the likelihood it is the only LEGAL way they can get the homeless off the system without facing massive lawsuits from the ACLU and the like is why they may have NO CHOICE BUT to continue it, at least until some group goes to court to try to force Cuomo and the MTA to return to full overnight service.  The images of the homeless as they were before the overnight shutdowns happened (that included the fire intentionally set that killed an M/M) will IMO make it very difficult to return to overnight service short of a court order forcing it to resume.

On 6/27/2020 at 7:00 AM, Wallyhorse said:

In case you forgot, the homeless was a BIG problem that made it impossible for many to use the subways AT ALL because it was becoming a serious health hazard due to the MTA not being able to run as many trains and as a result have the homeless in every car in some cases, in many cases with belongings piled high and so forth.  This was becoming a MAJOR problem and the MTA had no choice as that likely is the only LEGAL way the MTA can remove the homeless from the system, at least long enough to properly clean cars and so forth.  

9 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

It's likely the only LEGAL way the MTA can pull the homeless off the system to at least cut down on the problem without being sued by the ACLU.  THAT is the real problem. 

3rd time's supposed to be a charm, but this cannot be what the good folks back in the days of the Latin empire meant when they said repetition is the mother of all learning.....

It just can't....

 

5 hours ago, Lex said:

That's merely an indictment of the government's failures. Using the homeless as an excuse to shut the entire thing to the public is obvious bullshit.

The concept doesn't take rocket science to grasp, yet he keeps repeating this tinfoil hat shit like a see-and-say....

[I love NY]

On 6/24/2020 at 10:17 PM, Collin said:

I don't understand why so many are ok with this attack on subway service and the city as a whole.  People should be fighting Cuomo and his people on this.  Protesting, flooding their offices with angry letters, etc.  Demanding a return to full service, or at least a timeline or criteria to bring it back.

I am Italian and honestly I think that since last April 30 no person in the world protested like me against this ridicolous situation. I have written on facebook, twitter, I have commented on every forum, I have sent emails and twitt to Cuomo, De Blasio, NY senators, NYC councilman, NY transit advocates, the NY Mayor Nightlife Palitz etc EVERY SINGLE DAY for 2 months. In my opinion the only 3 persons which TRULY realize the risk to lose this service after 116 years (139 counting the Eleveted Railway) are: senator Brad Hoylman, Danny Pearlstein of Alliance Riders and the councilman Ydanis Rodriguez. I have realized that many New Yorkers are having enormous problems with overnight buses and some are spending also 45$ every night for taxis, but you don't see these news on the NY newpapers.....

I am 100% agree with you that it is a SHAME that in the city that never sleeps the vast majority of the population doesn't understand that cleaning and homeless are ONLY 2 SHABBY EXCUSES to eliminate this fantastic and historical service. After 2 months I still not seeing  a true protest, a petion online and even on this site every time that I say something without this stupid decision I get negative answers above all I am Italian.

Every time that I ask when will restored the 24/7 subway service on twitter Sarah Feinberg or ot the MTA members (Abbey Collins, Tim Minton etc) don't reply me and they EVER SAY that the subway never has been clearer than now........ But why no New Yorker realizes that is ABSOLTELY OBVIOUS that if you have ONLY 10% or 15% of the normal ridership it is ABSOLUTELY NORMAL that the subway is cleaner?

This is ONLY 1 simple example of the my alone battle to save the 24/7 subway service:

My email to concilman Rodriguez ( June 18):

URGENT: 24/7 subway service for phase 2!!

Dear councilman I have much valued your great commitment for the immediate recovery of 24/7 subway service and I thank you for it. But I also think that it has been too late for the phase 1 and above all I noted that it has had little attention in the media ( http://bronx.news12.com/story/42222535/council-member-rodriguez-calls-for-subway-to-be-open-during-overnight-cleanings and  https://www.harlemworldmagazine.com/uptown-transportation-chairman-rodriguez-calls-on-mta-to-reopen-subways/). In fact no news in the NYT, NY Post, NY Daily News etc.

It is absurd that EL CTA Chicago, Patco Philadelphia, PATH NY/NJ and SIR NY Staten Island in USA, but also S Bahn Frankfurt and S Bahn Koln haven't stopped their 24/7 service, while the CITY THAT NEVER SLEEPS since May 6 hasn't a late night subway service after 116 years, but even after 139 years also counting the old Manhattan Railway(Elevated) Company which started the 24/7 service in 1881!!!

 

And in NYC, unlike these other cities, over 50% of the inhabitants don't own a car.....

We know that homeless and cleaning are only a POOR EXCUSE...The subway has over 6.400 trains and you can clean the trains and at the same time to have a normal late night service without problem! Now there is also the UV light pilot program....I am sure that you already know that since May 6 we have a paradoxical situation: it exists a normal 24/7 subway service with a frequency of 20 minutes (included the shuttles), but it does't work for the riders ( https://nypost.com/2020/05/06/why-nyc-ghost-trains-run-during-coronavirus-subway-shutdowns/?utm_source=facebook_sitebuttons&utm_medium=site+buttons&utm_campaign=site+buttons&fbclid=IwAR3OazlQ0acbC8ATMtiwTL5GQUiSShNsF31Vhw0mQ5ouZvAJd-mFBLbNFfo). And about the homeless you know that the lies of the Mayor ( https://nypost.com/2020/05/14/homeless-seen-sleeping-inches-from-each-other-on-shelter-stairs/).....

Cuomo, De Blasio, the MTA and many superficial newspapers say that now the subway is cleaner, but it is ABSOLUTELY OBVIOUS when you have ONLY 10% of riders..... Attention to this strange propaganda.....

We must have this FUNDAMENTAL service for many persons (above all for working class, immigrants and poor New Yorkers, but also for thousands of tourists etc) already in the phase 2 and I think that is it ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY TO JOIN FORCES TO ACHIEVE THE GOAL. I know that the vast majority of the NYC council is absolutely agree with this, but also many NY senators ( https://www.nysenate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/brad-hoylman/senator-hoylman-announces-plans-mandate-full-247-mta-subway) , the NYC NIGHT LIFE MAYOR Miss Ariel Palitz, Riders Alliance, NYPIRG Straphangers Campaign and ABOVE ALL the NYC population have the same opinion!

De Blasio, Cuomo, Foye, Feinberg say that the 24 service will return to some point or even after the pandemic.....

 

ATTENTION Mr Rodriguez: if we haven't this service in the next days, we risk no longer have it and this should be the DEATH OF THE CITY THAT NEVER SLEEPS!!! It is NECESSARY RAISE YOUR VOICE and to CONTACT other NYC councilmen and transit advocates!! NOW!! This service after 116 years is at risk. 

 

P:S:  The last May 7 and the last June 11 and 13 I already wrote you, but you didn't reply me. I hope that this time you will reply me and possibly in a exhaustive manner....

 

What is the purpose to have an email, if then you don't reply?

 

Thanks.

Edited June 28, 2020 by I love NY

[I love NY]

Finally!!!!

https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2020/06/29/gov-cuomo-guarantees-24-7-subway-service-will-return-sort-of/

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

18 minutes ago, I love NY said:

Finally!!!!

https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2020/06/29/gov-cuomo-guarantees-24-7-subway-service-will-return-sort-of/

That's basically talking so much and saying nothing. It's a classical cop-out answer, because all Cuomo has to do is state that it's necessary to keep cleaning for [insert reason here] reason after the pandemic subsidies. 

[Collin]

I saw that press conference.  His answer was basically lip service, but he's now on record saying that 24 hour service will return, which will make it hard to walk it back.  My issue is there is no specific metrics to bring back full service and I see that as a slippery slope.  It's also worth noting that the LIRR and SIR, both MTA agencies still have 24 hour service, so disinfecting those trains while keeping service running is possible.

[CenSin]

48 minutes ago, Collin said:

he's now on record saying that 24 hour service will return, which will make it hard to walk it back

It could be easy or hard depending on the person. An infamous someone has been doing it for the past 4 years and is still going strong.

Edited June 30, 2020 by CenSin

[B35 via Church]

54 minutes ago, Collin said:

.....but he's now on record saying that 24 hour service will return, which will make it hard to walk it back.

Lol..... When has morals & integrity ever amounted to much of anything to a politician?

2 hours ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

That's basically talking so much and saying nothing. It's a classical cop-out answer, because all Cuomo has to do is state that it's necessary to keep cleaning for [insert reason here] reason after the pandemic subsidies. 

That is exactly how I took his response to that.... You see, bloviation is the name of the game... I believe nary a word that is said, until whatever promises are made have been acted upon and/or implemented.

Edited June 30, 2020 by B35 via Church

[Wallyhorse]

2 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Lol..... When has morals & integrity ever amounted to much of anything to a politician?

That is exactly how I took his response to that.... You see, bloviation is the name of the game... I believe nary a word that is said, until whatever promises are made have been acted upon and/or implemented.

And I still think it may take changes in the laws that would be ACLU-proof concerning the homeless.  The last thing the MTA or New York State needs is officers kicking the homeless out of the subway outside of when its closed and some hot-heavy, fame-seeking attorney seeks hundreds of millions of dollars in damages to go to ALL homeless individuals over being kicked out of the subway.  There are too many (place name of famous lawyer here)-wannabes who would go this route trying to use it to gain stardom and enrich themselves.  THAT is why Cuomo and the MTA know they have to potentially deal with.  

As much as the MTA needs to be back to being 24/7 and most people want that, I suspect Cuomo and the MTA know they risk an incident that leads to a fame-seeking whore suing and making big headlines out of it. 

[B35 via Church]

57 minutes ago, Wallyhorse said:

And I still think it may take changes in the laws that would be ACLU-proof concerning the homeless.  The last thing the MTA or New York State needs is officers kicking the homeless out of the subway outside of when its closed and some hot-heavy, fame-seeking attorney seeks hundreds of millions of dollars in damages to go to ALL homeless individuals over being kicked out of the subway.  There are too many (place name of famous lawyer here)-wannabes who would go this route trying to use it to gain stardom and enrich themselves.  THAT is why Cuomo and the MTA know they have to potentially deal with.  

As much as the MTA needs to be back to being 24/7 and most people want that, I suspect Cuomo and the MTA know they risk an incident that leads to a fame-seeking whore suing and making big headlines out of it. 

That's nice...

....and you're saying this to me... why, again?

Edited June 30, 2020 by B35 via Church

[Wallyhorse]

3 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

That's nice...

....and you're saying this to me... why, again?

I was just stating the facts.  What I said in the last post should have been figured out.   Too many people seeking fame out there as we have seen. 

[B35 via Church]

4 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

I was just stating the facts.  What I said in the last post should have been figured out.   Too many people seeking fame out there as we have seen. 

If you have to say that you were "just stating the facts", you weren't stating the facts..... Pretty much internet 101...

What you've been stating is nothing but supposition & conjecture....

• "And I still think it may take changes in the laws that would be ACLU-proof concerning the homeless. - This is a mere opinion... Nobody can research or fact-check what you "still think it may take".
• The last thing the MTA or New York State needs is officers kicking the homeless out of the subway outside of when its closed and some hot-heavy, fame-seeking attorney seeks hundreds of millions of dollars in damages to go to ALL homeless individuals over being kicked out of the subway."  - This is conjecture... Who made you judge, jury, and executioner as to what the last thing the MTA or NYS needs is?
• "There are too many (place name of famous lawyer here)-wannabes who would go this route trying to use it to gain stardom and enrich themselves. THAT is why Cuomo and the MTA know they have to potentially deal with." - This is a supposition, based on a supposition .... Cuomo & the MTA does not know what lawyers would do what, for them to somehow retaliate (or "potentially deal with") against them - and **newsflash** - Neither do YOU.
• "As much as the MTA needs to be back to being 24/7 and most people want that, I suspect Cuomo and the MTA know they risk an incident that leads to a fame-seeking whore suing and making big headlines out of it." - This is a supposition... You can suspect whatever you want - but again, you don't know what Cuomo & the MTA knows.

So please, spare me your beliefs... Thanks.

[Trainmaster5]

15 hours ago, Collin said:

I saw that press conference.  His answer was basically lip service, but he's now on record saying that 24 hour service will return, which will make it hard to walk it back.  My issue is there is no specific metrics to bring back full service and I see that as a slippery slope.  It's also worth noting that the LIRR and SIR, both MTA agencies still have 24 hour service, so disinfecting those trains while keeping service running is possible.

That's hourly or more service overnights so the comparison is an apples to oranges one. MNRR is also an agency.  Carry on. 

[Deucey]

15 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

And I still think it may take changes in the laws that would be ACLU-proof concerning the homeless.  The last thing the MTA or New York State needs is officers kicking the homeless out of the subway outside of when its closed and some hot-heavy, fame-seeking attorney seeks hundreds of millions of dollars in damages to go to ALL homeless individuals over being kicked out of the subway.  There are too many (place name of famous lawyer here)-wannabes who would go this route trying to use it to gain stardom and enrich themselves.  THAT is why Cuomo and the MTA know they have to potentially deal with.  

As much as the MTA needs to be back to being 24/7 and most people want that, I suspect Cuomo and the MTA know they risk an incident that leads to a fame-seeking whore suing and making big headlines out of it. 

You're not familiar with the Common Law and standing, are you?

All these suppositions and character attacks on the unknown parties...

I'ma hip you to some game here:

Every law, rule, order, ordinance, and regulation can be litigated if someone has reason to believe they'd be harmed by it, has proof of it, and can get advocates and supporters.

So  could create sleeping areas in stations and I could sue that it's violating NYS hotel and short-term rental laws for "charging" $2.75/night, or discriminating because it's not available to people who aren't indigent; or if I got cited by Bluebloods for closing my eyes between Union Square and Bowling Green (which I always do).

@Around the Horn could sue because the lack of shower facilities and non-enforcement of hygiene rules presents a nuisance and health hazard. @Via Garibaldi 8 could sue because if someone got access to that area without paying a fare but he was cited for hopping the turnstile to get on the train, it's discrimination.

And  could be sued by the City for participating in homeless relief but not following City Rules or contributing to City shelter projects, for violation of the lease it gave to NYCTA in the '50s, etc.

Since you wanted to supposition into a rabbithole...

The problem in all this - which is overlooked by the "EYE WANT MY 2:30AM RAILFANNING TRIP TO FAR ROCKAWAY BACK" crowd is that:

1) service was shut because of a contagious virus no one that isn't a die-hard conspiracist RWNJ wants to risk dying from necessitated it

2) The folks who complained about them sleeping on trains to minimize exposure used health risks to justify it

3) A whole lot of NYCers threw fits about shelters being opened in their neighborhoods - so where else were they to go?

4) The same folks glad about SCOTUS' Citizens United decision forget that not spending money (even if one doesn't have it) is Freedom of Speech as well; and

5) So long as they're not being disruptive, it's a violation of their Right to Peaceably Assemble (that other part of the First Amendment). Not liking them on the stations or trains isn't being disruptive; neither is having B.O.

So if one wants metrics to reopen the system to 24/7 service, the aforementioned list is your baseline criteria to create metrics if the goal is to make the system homeless-free.

Think on those instead of whinging on about ambulance chasers.