October 15 Overnight service cuts

[Union Tpke]

https://new.mta.info/coronavirus/overnight/bus-service

Screen Shot 2020-10-08 at 8.23.07 AM by Union Turnpike, on Flickr

[checkmatechamp13]

This is getting ridiculous. Either open up the subway and let people ride the trains that are running anyway, or stop running the empty trains and keep the extra overnight bus service.

[Future ENY OP]

5 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

This is getting ridiculous. Either open up the subway and let people ride the trains that are running anyway, or stop running the empty trains and keep the extra overnight bus service.

As long as the virus is still here forget about overnight subway service. This is just  flexing its muscles to curb unnecessary spending on some overnight routes.  The routes in question like the M34/A SBS don’t to be running overnight. Of course there’s gonna be opposition against this plan. However, if DC is not willing to help than the cuts gotta take place. 

[MysteriousBtrain]

@Via Garibaldi 8 it looks like they are discontinuing QM17 overnight service. Meanwhile the inbound trips to Manhattan are crush loaded to the point where there's standing room only. It's ridiculous how they are cutting such a service with almost no alternative. (Nobody wants to take the Q22->Q53->Q60->Bx99/M15-> another crosstown

[Via Garibaldi 8]

2 minutes ago, MysteriousBtrain said:

@Via Garibaldi 8 it looks like they are discontinuing QM17 overnight service. Meanwhile the inbound trips to Manhattan are crush loaded to the point where there's standing room only. It's ridiculous how they are cutting such a service with almost no alternative. (Nobody wants to take the Q22->Q53->Q60->Bx99/M15-> another crosstown

Yes, I saw that and posted it in my group. They are saying low ridership is the reason, but the real big reason is they simply don't have enough drivers. I believe these trips are being covered by Far Rockaway or JFK, and at least one of these depots has a driver shortage, as was noted in my group. I am not sure if this is due to a spike in COVID cases, but some drivers are self-quarantining just in case.  The other issue that people keep overlooking is the  is running out of money. They have not received the cash they asked for from the Feds, and so overtime is being cut. The people that will feel it most are those with the least options.

[paulrivera]

28 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Yes, I saw that and posted it in my group. They are saying low ridership is the reason, but the real big reason is they simply don't have enough drivers. I believe these trips are being covered by Far Rockaway or JFK, and at least one of these depots has a driver shortage, as was noted in my group. I am not sure if this is due to a spike in COVID cases, but some drivers are self-quarantining just in case.  The other issue that people keep overlooking is the  is running out of money. They have not received the cash they asked for from the Feds, and so overtime is being cut. The people that will feel it most are those with the least options.

Meanwhile the BxM4 is still running alongside the Bx99....

I mean, I enjoy having two options by me, but if someone asked me to choose between the BxM4 and QM17, I would've picked to keep the QM17 (even if the latter never ran the MCI's overnight)

[Via Garibaldi 8]

13 minutes ago, paulrivera said:

Meanwhile the BxM4 is still running alongside the Bx99....

I mean, I enjoy having two options by me, but if someone asked me to choose between the BxM4 and QM17, I would've picked to keep the QM17 (even if the latter never ran the MCI's overnight)

I don't believe the BxM4 is running that frequently, but in any event, Yonkers Depot has been able to cover most of those trips. If drivers want the work, they sign up for it, otherwise no bus. 

[danielhg121]

The work should be up for grabs by any depot when it gets down to the wire. I'd say within 4-8 hours of the run being made, if no driver is assigned to the run, there should be an opening for any driver that wants it. But union(s) rules. Prob a difference in run pay, etc. 😐 Unless there's a driver shortage across all the boroughs but with all these cuts, where exactly are they shifting the service to?  

[Via Garibaldi 8]

19 minutes ago, danielhg121 said:

The work should be up for grabs by any depot when it gets down to the wire. I'd say within 4-8 hours of the run being made, if no driver is assigned to the run, there should be an opening for any driver that wants it. But union(s) rules. Prob a difference in run pay, etc. 😐 Unless there's a driver shortage across all the boroughs but with all these cuts, where exactly are they shifting the service to?  

It is not that simple. Drivers must have a certain amount of time in between shifts, so that is another issue. They don't want the night work screwing up the regular service.

[limitednyc]

so the only covid services to remain are the  the  b8, b44. b46, bm2 ,bx1, bx15,m3, m4, m7, m15, ,m102,q32, q60,q102

Edited October 8, 2020 by limitednyc

[B35 via Church]

3 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

This is getting ridiculous. Either open up the subway and let people ride the trains that are running anyway, or stop running the empty trains and keep the extra overnight bus service.

3 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

As long as the virus is still here forget about overnight subway service. This is just  flexing its muscles to curb unnecessary spending on some overnight routes.  The routes in question like the M34/A SBS don’t to be running overnight. Of course there’s gonna be opposition against this plan. However, if DC is not willing to help than the cuts gotta take place. 

I don't necessarily disagree with either premise, but quite frankly, I expected this to happen... It was only a matter of when......

Overnight bus usage was never going to be all that close to being synonymous with/equivalent to overnight subway usage.... Graveyard shifters don't have much of a choice, but most others that took the subway during the overnight hrs. for (whatever) other reasons they previously did before the shutdown, have decided to pack it in (so to speak), instead of even considering getting around by bus during those hours...... Another way of putting that is, the MTA's resorted to using the subway shutdown as a further impetus to eliminate overnight bus service....

Just speaking on the Brooklyn routes on that list, well:

• They won't do it, but instead of running B25's at that ridiculous headway, they could perhaps add a trip per hour to the M99 & have that trip (which would be every 4th M99 trip) running over to Alabama av.... Either that, or have every 3rd trip swing over to Alabama w/o the extra trip/hour (which of course, would end up decreasing the frequency for New Lots & Brownsville riders).... Regardless, they need to bog down & fix that bunching issue on the M99....
• Service every 20 mins. on the B39 overnight was excessive anyway, but if they extended it over to Bowery down to Canal, that would make an overnight B39 far more attractive w/ the subways knocked out & all (even if headways were to be doubled)... Delancey/Allen suffices during the daytime, but overnights, it's a stub....
• Out of all the B99/M99 fanning I've been doing, I don't think I've seen a single B45 (regardless of direction) with a single solitary person on it.... To be perfectly honest, the B45 is one of those routes that I often forgot even had overnight service added to it...
• While I knew B62's was running overnight, I didn't know its frequency was that high/as high.... Well, at least they kept it around at half the frequency.... Should suffice, IMO.
• Oddly enough, I haven't been seeing overnight B82's, so I can't speak to how they're performing right now....

3 hours ago, danielhg121 said:

The work should be up for grabs by any depot when it gets down to the wire. I'd say within 4-8 hours of the run being made, if no driver is assigned to the run, there should be an opening for any driver that wants it. But union(s) rules. Prob a difference in run pay, etc. 😐 Unless there's a driver shortage across all the boroughs but with all these cuts, where exactly are they shifting the service to?  

I'll believe service redistribution/reallocation when I see it; funny how there's no conveyance of service additions on that table/webpage....

I'm taking that use of the word "resources" there to solely refer to (the potential of) having more available b/o's at their arsenal.....

[checkmatechamp13]

5 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

As long as the virus is still here forget about overnight subway service. This is just  flexing its muscles to curb unnecessary spending on some overnight routes.  The routes in question like the M34/A SBS don’t to be running overnight. Of course there’s gonna be opposition against this plan. However, if DC is not willing to help than the cuts gotta take place. 

And running literally empty trains across the entire city isn't unnecessary spending?

4 hours ago, danielhg121 said:

The work should be up for grabs by any depot when it gets down to the wire. I'd say within 4-8 hours of the run being made, if no driver is assigned to the run, there should be an opening for any driver that wants it. But union(s) rules. Prob a difference in run pay, etc. 😐 Unless there's a driver shortage across all the boroughs but with all these cuts, where exactly are they shifting the service to?  

If I had to guess, any additions would take place under the "99" routes.

@B35 via Church They're reverting to the old headways. Before the overnight shutdown the B25 ran every 74 minutes and the B62 ran every 50 minutes.

I'd do a combination of both ideas: Run the M99 every 15 minutes (30 minutes on both branches). That way you maintain a decent frequency for the connection to the Q24/56 (which is even more important if you're eliminating the QM17)

Edited October 8, 2020 by checkmatechamp13

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

Ugh, the QM17 cut will impact quite a lot of people. It has nothing to do with low ridership Some trips can be very light but many of those trips do get riders. They just don't have the operators available. Almost every night they've been missing trips (one night only a single round-trip operated). 

I'll survive without it, as I can walk to QCM and either catch the Q60 (and x-fer to the Q32/Bx99 if needed), or take the Q53 to the Q32. However, most people are traveling  to/from the Rockaways and points south on Woodhaven/Cross Bay Boulevards. It'll be a massive issue when the Q22 runs hourly on weekends. 

The Q114 runs every 30 minutes, but doesn't connect to the Q60. You'd have to take a bus or walk between Jamaica Center and Jamaica LIRR (and the Q56 will now run hourly, so there goes that option). In the time you get to Jamaica Center from Far Rockaway, you would be approaching or be on the LIE if you take the QM17. 

This may be an issue because of unions, but I really wish that they would have opened it up to other bus company depots to operate the route (LGA, CP, BP, SC). Some runs appear to make a round trip originating from Midtown, so the DH for an LGA or CP operator wouldn't be too bad. CP at the start had the Q65 supplements, Q66 supplements, QM6, and Q102 (every 20 minutes) and ran all three of them without too many issues. 

The other cut that is also impact (maybe not as much, but also painful/annoying) is the B39. 

 

Edited October 8, 2020 by BM5 via Woodhaven

[Trainmaster5]

6 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

It is not that simple. Drivers must have a certain amount of time in between shifts, so that is another issue. They don't want the night work screwing up the regular service.

I'm not a B/O but those I do know pointed this out to me in the beginning of this crisis. Basically this is all charged to O.T. and most fans, bus or rail, never considered this fact. Imagine a single B/O with no dependents. After 48+ hours a week you're working for Uncle Sam because of taxes. Depending on your picked job it's not worth it. That's the scuttlebutt I've heard here and there and I can relate to it personally. I ran away from work trains years ago for that very reason. The federal hours of service rules were put into effect for a reason. My take. Carry on.

[B35 via Church]

1 hour ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

@B35 via Church They're reverting to the old headways. Before the overnight shutdown the B25 ran every 74 minutes and the B62 ran every 50 minutes.

I'd do a combination of both ideas: Run the M99 every 15 minutes (30 minutes on both branches). That way you maintain a decent frequency for the connection to the Q24/56 (which is even more important if you're eliminating the QM17)

News to me... Thought the B62 ran hourly & the B25 didn't run at all.

Looking at the B25 timetable, it's strange after all that time I used to take the B12 to the Q24 on Saturdays to catch the LIRR at Jamaica (2016-2017), I never once saw that 4:17am B25 trip leave Alabama.... See, I would catch the B12 at Albany/Clarkson around 3:55 & would get to Alabama around 4:15 or so... Q24 would arrive like 5 mins later.... Very rarely did I luck up & catch a late Q56, which was scheduled to arrive at 4:12 or some isht like that..... Sometimes I'd take the to Sutphin, but me being a bus guy, I preferred taking the bus.... Time-wise, it didn't make a difference either way, since that train that got me to LIRR Mineola at 5:20 left Jamaica at 5:04 (crazy how I still remember some of these times, aint it).....

Regardless of any of that, yeah, TBH, I thought they would originally route the M99 to where it'd serve B'way Junction somehow... Still don't really get running it up/down Rockaway av, but whatever (as it makes it much easier for me to fan the thing.... as opposed to having to take the B15 to, say, Penn, I can just walk over to the Thatford stop & catch it)....

Of course, the question to that added trip then becomes, should the M99 be any more frequent than the B99 & the Bx99.....

[NewFlyer 230]

I’m not surprised with the QM17 being cut, I always felt they were going to find a reason to cut it and force people to take the Q53. Didn’t the Q22 also get its overnight service cut too? If it did then that means the east side of Rockaway has no service.

I actually thought the Q102 would be on this list since it’s ridership isn’t too great during the day time but I guess it doesn’t do too bad at night. It does serve the hospital so I guess they would ideally want to keep it around. 
 

The B39 during the overnight hours should run from at least Chambers Street to Broadway Junction. That way you don’t have to make multiple transfers for one trip. Then afterwards you can take the Q24 or Q56 to whatever stop you need. 

The Q32 like I mentioned before is useless going up to Northern Blvd and 81st. Overnight I would have it continue down Roosevelt Ave to Flushing instead of forcing people to have to walk or use the Q66 for Main Street service.  The Q66 isn’t a good  replacement between 82nd and 111th streets. 
 

Why doesn’t the M34 normally run overnight? I would think that 34th street would have people utilizing it during the middle of the night since it passes through Penn Station and Herald Square.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 hour ago, Trainmaster5 said:

I'm not a B/O but those I do know pointed this out to me in the beginning of this crisis. Basically this is all charged to O.T. and most fans, bus or rail, never considered this fact. Imagine a single B/O with no dependents. After 48+ hours a week you're working for Uncle Sam because of taxes. Depending on your picked job it's not worth it. That's the scuttlebutt I've heard here and there and I can relate to it personally. I ran away from work trains years ago for that very reason. The federal hours of service rules were put into effect for a reason. My take. Carry on.

Very true. Apparently they get eaten alive with the taxes when they do overtime.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

8 minutes ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

I’m not surprised with the QM17 being cut, I always felt they were going to find a reason to cut it and force people to take the Q53. Didn’t the Q22 also get its overnight service cut too? If it did then that means the east side of Rockaway has no service.

I actually thought the Q102 would be on this list since it’s ridership isn’t too great during the day time but I guess it doesn’t do too bad at night. It does serve the hospital so I guess they would ideally want to keep it around. 
 

The B39 during the overnight hours should run from at least Chambers Street to Broadway Junction. That way you don’t have to make multiple transfers for one trip. Then afterwards you can take the Q24 or Q56 to whatever stop you need. 

The Q32 like I mentioned before is useless going up to Northern Blvd and 81st. Overnight I would have it continue down Roosevelt Ave to Flushing instead of forcing people to have to walk or use the Q66 for Main Street service.  The Q66 isn’t a good  replacement between 82nd and 111th streets. 
 

Why doesn’t the M34 normally run overnight? I would think that 34th street would have people utilizing it during the middle of the night since it passes through Penn Station and Herald Square.

The M34 is pretty dead late at night and so is 34th St, speaking from experience.

[Cait Sith]

On 10/8/2020 at 7:57 PM, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

The M34 is pretty dead late at night and so is 34th St, speaking from experience.

This. I second this statement. There have been times where I've been the only customer on the M34 from 1st to 7th Avenue(because I take the LIRR).

Edited October 10, 2020 by Cait Sith

[Via Garibaldi 8]

15 minutes ago, Cait Sith said:

This. I second this statement. There have been times where I've been the only customer on the M34 from 1st to 7th Avenue(because I take the LIRR).

Yeah, NYC isn't that 24/7 place as much as it used to be. In my mind, I don't recall 34th St ever being that way.

[B35 via Church]

2 hours ago, Cait Sith said:

This. I second this statement. There have been times where I've been the only customer on the M34 from 1st to 7th Avenue(because I take the LIRR).

2 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Yeah, NYC isn't that 24/7 place as much as it used to be. In my mind, I don't recall 34th St ever being that way.

IDK wtf they're digging up along 34th st for (especially on the west side) with that construction, but it's a pain.... Last couple M34/a's I've seen, wasn't nary a person on it.... But yeah, overnight 34's always ran empty like that....

Edited October 11, 2020 by B35 via Church

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

On 10/8/2020 at 7:48 PM, NewFlyer 230 said:

I’m not surprised with the QM17 being cut, I always felt they were going to find a reason to cut it and force people to take the Q53. Didn’t the Q22 also get its overnight service cut too? If it did then that means the east side of Rockaway has no service.

The Q22 still operates, but it runs hourly on weekends. IDK how some people are going to actually travel now since the commute is tedious without the . Yeah the via local is slow, but getting to Manhattan by bus only from the Rockaways, forget it. 

To minimize transfers, the Q22 to/from Q35 to/from B99 might be the preferred option for almost all those QM17 riders going to the Rockaways. Perhaps some may walk to the Q53, but even then, it'll be a bit of a walk, and they'll have to transfer again to the Q32 or Q60. 

On 10/8/2020 at 7:48 PM, NewFlyer 230 said:

I actually thought the Q102 would be on this list since it’s ridership isn’t too great during the day time but I guess it doesn’t do too bad at night. It does serve the hospital so I guess they would ideally want to keep it around. 

Well, it's ridership during the day doesn't really translate into anything directly, because when the subways aren't running, it's a different dynamic. The Q102 is replacing the and , so it is necessary in theory. 

At best, those buses do meh. The issue nowadays with the Q102 is that the buses are unreliable. With 30 minute headways, that's just not appealing. There's a bunch of buses which also don't run. Buses are empty on Roosevelt Island. I think only the Astoria Houses - Queens Plaza segment gets any reliable ridership base at night. Between Queens Plaza and Queens ridge, you also might get a few people but nothing substantial. 

On 10/8/2020 at 7:48 PM, NewFlyer 230 said:

The Q32 like I mentioned before is useless going up to Northern Blvd and 81st. Overnight I would have it continue down Roosevelt Ave to Flushing instead of forcing people to have to walk or use the Q66 for Main Street service.  The Q66 isn’t a good  replacement between 82nd and 111th streets. 

Well people going to Flushing would have to transfer at Northern (if they got on past Queens Plaza), so it isn't exactly useless. 

As for the Q66, while there should be a direct replacement on the , I'm actually inclined to think that of people who use the (7), many are coming from areas north of Roosevelt anyways, so it may not make too difference if they go to Northern instead. So given the limited amount of resources they have, that's the best the could have come up with. 

On 10/8/2020 at 7:48 PM, NewFlyer 230 said:

Why doesn’t the M34 normally run overnight? I would think that 34th street would have people utilizing it during the middle of the night since it passes through Penn Station and Herald Square.

Like others said, 34th Street isn't very active. When I've been out there, I can count on one hand the number of people I've seen on those buses. It was likely given the overnight service though because of the hospitals it serves. It could have been useful earlier on (when hospitals needed all the workers they could get), but now that hospitalizations are down, it isn't necessary. 

If I were to provide 24/7 service on 34th Street though, it would be through way of the M34A (and was the case pre-2010). The ferry doesn't even run overnight, and much of the west side is dead at that time. However, you hit both Penn Station and Port Authority, the latter which may actually be more useful at night. Also Waterside Plaza would be served. 

 

On 10/8/2020 at 7:57 PM, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

 

 

Edited October 11, 2020 by BM5 via Woodhaven

[Via Garibaldi 8]

8 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

IDK wtf they're digging up along 34th st for (especially on the west side) with that construction, but it's a pain.... Last couple M34/a's I've seen, wasn't nary a person on it.... But yeah, overnight 34's always ran empty like that....

I also feel like I walk more than I take the M34. It's not a bus that I take often for say several blocks like say the M86, so that's something else that maybe takes away ridership from that line. Doesn't help that it runs like crap too. Not very frequent.

[NBTA]

1 hour ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I also feel like I walk more than I take the M34. It's not a bus that I take often for say several blocks like say the M86, so that's something else that maybe takes away ridership from that line. Doesn't help that it runs like crap too. Not very frequent.

The M34 past about 10:30 is pretty much empty. I used to work down there late a lot of the time, so I actually approve of the canning of it.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

2 hours ago, NBTA said:

The M34 past about 10:30 is pretty much empty. I used to work down there late a lot of the time, so I actually approve of the canning of it.

I don't know if I would can it per se, but I can understand why they did.