Greyhound: no longer huge passenger numbers at Xmas?

[Nick]

Greyhound, decades ago, at one of the holidays, I think Christmas, faced so many passengers wanting to ride from New York City to the Carolinas (and likely other Southern states) that it needed around 40-50 buses for a single departure that was usually served by a single bus. Once, the N.Y. Times wrote about it. (Each bus for one departure was called a section. Buses would continuously fill and load and, I think, some would skip some stops on the way.) Greyhound, even with a bigger fleet back then, would charter buses from other companies. Back then, almost no bus, Greyhound or otherwise, featured reserved seating. That’s like 1,600-2,000 extra passengers back then, for one scheduled time. And Greyhound had more than one departure time.

Yet, maybe a year or two ago, long before the pandemic, I asked a ground worker at the Port Authority Bus Terminal if that still happens. He seemed surprised at the quantity and thought there might be a couple of extra buses but that’s it. He thought it’s because passengers now have to reserve.

So, I wonder:

--- Have passengers simply stopped bunching into a single popular time to leave and spread out to other departures?

--- Were most seats filled but not paid for?

--- Do more people who live on Greyhound budgets now take trains or fly? Maybe Greyhound is no longer so cheap, even after adding for inflation in the cost of living.

--- Is Christmas travel no longer much of a market and many holidays are diverting these trips?

--- Is long-distance travel for annual family reunions no longer much of a market?

--- Has the direction of travel has simply reversed? I don’t think so, because that would still require just as many extra buses, just in the opposite direction for each trip leg.

--- Some other cause?

--- Am I wrong and so was the ground worker and the passenger bunching is close to what it was?

[Mtatransit]

4 hours ago, Nick said:

Greyhound, decades ago, at one of the holidays, I think Christmas, faced so many passengers wanting to ride from New York City to the Carolinas (and likely other Southern states) that it needed around 40-50 buses for a single departure that was usually served by a single bus. Once, the N.Y. Times wrote about it. (Each bus for one departure was called a section. Buses would continuously fill and load and, I think, some would skip some stops on the way.) Greyhound, even with a bigger fleet back then, would charter buses from other companies. Back then, almost no bus, Greyhound or otherwise, featured reserved seating. That’s like 1,600-2,000 extra passengers back then, for one scheduled time. And Greyhound had more than one departure time.

Yet, maybe a year or two ago, long before the pandemic, I asked a ground worker at the Port Authority Bus Terminal if that still happens. He seemed surprised at the quantity and thought there might be a couple of extra buses but that’s it. He thought it’s because passengers now have to reserve.

So, I wonder:

--- Have passengers simply stopped bunching into a single popular time to leave and spread out to other departures?

--- Were most seats filled but not paid for?

--- Do more people who live on Greyhound budgets now take trains or fly? Maybe Greyhound is no longer so cheap, even after adding for inflation in the cost of living.

--- Is Christmas travel no longer much of a market and many holidays are diverting these trips?

--- Is long-distance travel for annual family reunions no longer much of a market?

--- Has the direction of travel has simply reversed? I don’t think so, because that would still require just as many extra buses, just in the opposite direction for each trip leg.

--- Some other cause?

--- Am I wrong and so was the ground worker and the passenger bunching is close to what it was?

Greyhound is going DOWNHILL. They had been going downhill since 1980s. Now they are on their last legs. All the feeder routes are cuts, frequency was reduced to increase productivity. Some segments completely gone.

Back then it wasn't unusual to see 10-20 round trip a day down south. Now there is barely 2. Feeder route was cut. All Greyhound service south of Myrtle Beach towards Savannah was eliminated back in 10-20 years ago, leaving the largest city Charleston, SC without Greyhound service (they do have trailways though) . This is a common theme across the nation

Ex Boston- Bangor had 4x trips a day in 2008. Today it has 1. Chicago-Seattle is truncated to Chicago-Minneapolis and Spokane-Seattle, with Jefferson Line filling the gap. 

Chicago-Denver via Omaha was completely cut and replaced by trailways. Same goes with SLC-Reno. 

So the short answer is, Greyhound provided bad long distance service, and customer found newer and faster ways to travel, and they simply didn't and wouldn't adapt, so they cut frequency and the death spiral continues

--- Have passengers simply stopped bunching into a single popular time to leave and spread out to other departures?

Intercity bus ridership is down especially long distance. Cheap airline fares definitely captured this market.

--- Were most seats filled but not paid for?

No way

--- Do more people who live on Greyhound budgets now take trains or fly? Maybe Greyhound is no longer so cheap, even after adding for inflation in the cost of living.

Greyhound and Amtrak is close to three times the price of a spirit airline flight if you don't have a carry on bag

--- Is Christmas travel no longer much of a market and many holidays are diverting these trips?

No Xmas holiday travel is still there, its just Greyhound lost passengers. They still run extras just not as much as back then.

--- Is long-distance travel for annual family reunions no longer much of a market?

LD bus is declining, not long distance travel.

--- Has the direction of travel has simply reversed? I don’t think so, because that would still require just as many extra buses, just in the opposite direction for each trip leg.

No, airline took the market

--- Some other cause?

Cheap air fare down south

--- Am I wrong and so was the ground worker and the passenger bunching is close to what it was?

[paulrivera]

Plus with COVID-19, the bus industry in general didn’t get any stimulus, but Amtrak did.

With Greyhound specifically, that has meant higher fares and reduced schedules. Amtrak has been able to hold the line on their fare structure (they’ve reduced schedules tho) which means in certain circumstances (especially advanced bookings) the train fare is actually cheaper than the bus.

That won’t do Greyhound any favors now, but on the flip side who knows how long Amtrak can hold down their fares.

[Cait Sith]

7 hours ago, paulrivera said:

Plus with COVID-19, the bus industry in general didn’t get any stimulus, but Amtrak did.

With Greyhound specifically, that has meant higher fares and reduced schedules. Amtrak has been able to hold the line on their fare structure (they’ve reduced schedules tho) which means in certain circumstances (especially advanced bookings) the train fare is actually cheaper than the bus.

That won’t do Greyhound any favors now, but on the flip side who knows how long Amtrak can hold down their fares.

I don't think Amtrak got anything, because they are threatening to cut jobs and routes.

[paulrivera]

1 hour ago, Cait Sith said:

I don't think Amtrak got anything, because they are threatening to cut jobs and routes.

 Amtrak got $1 billion in April.

But they havent received anything since, which to your point will lead to cuts if no new stimulus is agreed upon.

The intercity buses got diddly squat.

Edited October 30, 2020 by paulrivera

[Nick]

I think some intercity bus routes got government subsidies, as did some Amtrak routes, because of community pressure to maintain service despite the number of tickets being sold being inadequate. The train has some romantic appeal. Buses don't. So, maybe, some subsidies got cut. I haven't looked into it. If so, that would explain some route cuts.

One Adirondack Trailways route that was cut I suspect was cut because the communities became more upscale, implying more cars, and fewer people, even counting visitors, would take buses. Families and other groups can often travel more cheaply by car than by bus.

Some routes may have been taken over by lower-cost competitors, perhaps using smaller or older vehicles (older vehicles may cost less if maintenance is creative) or paying drivers less (like if the owner is the only driver).

Some routes always puzzled me. Greyhound had at least one within New York City. I guess it was a feeder for passengers and packages but New York City's subway system runs much more often and conveniently to both Manhattan bus terminals and UPS, FedEx, et al. will take packages to many more places and door-to-door. I don't knoe what bus lines charge for package express.

Greyhound's heyday may have been in the 1930s Depression. For decades, it generated enough loose cash that it built unrelated businesses, Armour meat and Dial soap. Trailways was a competing coast-to-coast company. Eventually, Greyhound got out of the other businesses and Trailways trunk routes got merged into Greyhound's, leaving Trailways as a collection of franchises that don't necessarily connect although they may provide better service.

I'm not sure Greyhound is on a death spiral. It had dipped to about 1,200 buses and has gone up to about 1,700 lately.

Route maps for major bus companies seem harder to find online than in the pre-Internet days of Russell's Bus Guide, a monthly book of schedules.

Your (@Mtatransit) explanation about airlines like Spirit makes sense (though I haven't checked Spirit's route map or fares). Many people might tolerate a slightly higher fare plus ground transportation in exchange for getting there a lot faster door-to-door.

[Nick]

I forgot about a whole slew of minor bus companies that compete almost head-to-head, probably mostly on price, and that don't use the Port Authority, but use, e.g., midtown curbsides or Chinatown in NYC. Some go to somewhere near Washington, D.C., like Vamoose Bus, and a few years ago I saw one company, with maybe two buses without bathrooms, connecting Brooklyn and Atlanta. Flixbus lists 138 U.S. destinations, Megabus lists 80 destinations, Wanda Coach 72, Bolt Bus 19 in the U.S., and Sprinter Bus 5; and I'm sure I'm missing some. (I don't know whether to count Coach USA with its approximately 398 U.S. destinations. Maybe my thinking that the national bus lines are limited to Greyhound and formerly Continental Trailways is outdated.) Some seem not head-to-head but are close enough that local transportation easily makes up the difference. Decades ago, one competitor to Greyhound was Grey Rabbit, using one or a few Volkswagen minibuses to go coast to coast, but it probably didn't have legal authority and I think Greyhound went after them legally.

[Mtatransit]

On 10/30/2020 at 7:43 PM, Nick said:

I think some intercity bus routes got government subsidies, as did some Amtrak routes, because of community pressure to maintain service despite the number of tickets being sold being inadequate. The train has some romantic appeal. Buses don't. So, maybe, some subsidies got cut. I haven't looked into it. If so, that would explain some route cuts.

One Adirondack Trailways route that was cut I suspect was cut because the communities became more upscale, implying more cars, and fewer people, even counting visitors, would take buses. Families and other groups can often travel more cheaply by car than by bus.

Some routes may have been taken over by lower-cost competitors, perhaps using smaller or older vehicles (older vehicles may cost less if maintenance is creative) or paying drivers less (like if the owner is the only driver).

Some routes always puzzled me. Greyhound had at least one within New York City. I guess it was a feeder for passengers and packages but New York City's subway system runs much more often and conveniently to both Manhattan bus terminals and UPS, FedEx, et al. will take packages to many more places and door-to-door. I don't knoe what bus lines charge for package express.

Greyhound's heyday may have been in the 1930s Depression. For decades, it generated enough loose cash that it built unrelated businesses, Armour meat and Dial soap. Trailways was a competing coast-to-coast company. Eventually, Greyhound got out of the other businesses and Trailways trunk routes got merged into Greyhound's, leaving Trailways as a collection of franchises that don't necessarily connect although they may provide better service.

I'm not sure Greyhound is on a death spiral. It had dipped to about 1,200 buses and has gone up to about 1,700 lately.

Route maps for major bus companies seem harder to find online than in the pre-Internet days of Russell's Bus Guide, a monthly book of schedules.

Your (@Mtatransit) explanation about airlines like Spirit makes sense (though I haven't checked Spirit's route map or fares). Many people might tolerate a slightly higher fare plus ground transportation in exchange for getting there a lot faster door-to-door.

Service between major cities on the East and West Coast has definitely improved due to the competition mentioned below. But overall, the schedules linking the country is getting thinner and thinner. COVID-19 may just do them in. 

Greyhound maintains an internal schedule that not linked to its normal website

https://extranet.greyhound.com/revsup/

It doesn't have a map but it has the most recent schedule changes under Bulletins, and all the schedules Greyhound still operates.

As you may see, frequencies are down, and while there are still partner connections, they usually operate no more than once a day a far cry from when Greyhound operated 3-4 a day

 

If you compare this to what Greyhound operated even as recently as 2008 which is the last Russell Guide I own, its a shell of its former self. 

I also have a 1968 Guide. That thing was as large as a telephone book. Every decade after that the book gets smaller and smaller. 

 

On 11/9/2020 at 8:36 PM, Nick said:

I forgot about a whole slew of minor bus companies that compete almost head-to-head, probably mostly on price, and that don't use the Port Authority, but use, e.g., midtown curbsides or Chinatown in NYC. Some go to somewhere near Washington, D.C., like Vamoose Bus, and a few years ago I saw one company, with maybe two buses without bathrooms, connecting Brooklyn and Atlanta. Flixbus lists 138 U.S. destinations, Megabus lists 80 destinations, Wanda Coach 72, Bolt Bus 19 in the U.S., and Sprinter Bus 5; and I'm sure I'm missing some. (I don't know whether to count Coach USA with its approximately 398 U.S. destinations. Maybe my thinking that the national bus lines are limited to Greyhound and formerly Continental Trailways is outdated.) Some seem not head-to-head but are close enough that local transportation easily makes up the difference. Decades ago, one competitor to Greyhound was Grey Rabbit, using one or a few Volkswagen minibuses to go coast to coast, but it probably didn't have legal authority and I think Greyhound went after them legally.

 

[QM1to6Ave]

Interesting, I didn't know that Greyhound also transported packages (hard for me to tell from the document if it is for big companies like UPS or small ones)

[Nick]

My experience with Greyhound package service is from decades ago but, at least back then, people could use it themselves, in that someone could go to a Greyhound station to hand over or pick up a package. The service was not door-to-door; a Greyhound would not show up outside an office building or your home. I do not know if Greyhound had an arrangement with any truck-based carrier like UPS or USPS. https://www.greyhound.com/en/about (as accessed 12-10-20) mentions the service but nothing about connections with truck-based carriers. The website makes one statement that's either intriguing or wrong: it offers low prices and overnight service, but overnight from Miami to San Francisco would require connecting with an overnight carrier like FedEx, UPS, or USPS and that's probably not priced low. It's probably an error. If there are Greyhound-plus-carrier arrangements, Greyhound would promote them, so it's likely an error. I think this is for people in small towns shipping to nearby large cities. If Greyhound pricing is based on passengers paying the costs of running a bus, package revenue is gravy, so it can be cheap even if only one small package per trip is carried and it would still be profitable.