MTA's Presentation Calls for Massive Cuts to Bus Service

[MysteriousBtrain]

Long story short, it's not just Trump's fault. Y'all keep glancing over the 2010 budget cuts like that wasn't a thing. Not to even mention how LIB disappeared into thin air a year later. And just because Biden became president elect dosen't mean the problems will disappear overnight (even with plans for re-improving Amtrak).

MTA heads were already terrible with budget management. What Trump did to "stall and look good" (during a pandemic at that) made it just worse. 

[Brillant93]

This just shows how messed up our politicians are. I feel that in a time of a pandemic we actually need our government to work. I don’t believe there aren’t any republicans who won’t support bills to help people but their leaders are the issue. We’ve seen it for months now and it’s getting tiring. They like to say “NYC is gone forever!” But yet you are helping it make it that way. 
 

I hope our politicians can get their heads out of their egos. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 hour ago, MysteriousBtrain said:

Long story short, it's not just Trump's fault. Y'all keep glancing over the 2010 budget cuts like that wasn't a thing. Not to even mention how LIB disappeared into thin air a year later. And just because Biden became president elect dosen't mean the problems will disappear overnight (even with plans for re-improving Amtrak).

MTA heads were already terrible with budget management. What Trump did to "stall and look good" (during a pandemic at that) made it just worse. 

When Trump is gone, we'll keep hearing about how he's at fault for everything, the same way they treated Bush. LOL Obama was a saint and Bush messed up everything.

[Lawrence St]

14 hours ago, lornaevo said:

They need to enforce the fares and stop people from riding the bus for free  

To be fair,  makes it easy to farebeat...

Some station agents/bus drivers don't even care, while others will report it. But the turnstiles are what allow the constant fare beating to occur, as well as bus operators opening the rear door on buses when it's not needed. 

And let's not forget that didn't help their case when they did the ESI project and made the walls in the fare zone so short that anyone could hop over it.

[happy283]

9 hours ago, Cait Sith said:

Actually, they are.....they started cutting rail service and bus service in some areas(most notably, the route 9 expresses), more cuts are coming.

While I am not familiar with the Rt 9 Exp situation, I have heard that NJ Gov Murphy plans to increase the gas tax to help find NJT. While there has been some minimal cuts to rail, PTC has been cited as the reason but I am doubtful that is really why. However, those cuts were minimal and are not nearly as disasterous as the proposed MTA ones. I am not led to believe more is to come at NJT.

 

19 hours ago, lornaevo said:

They need to enforce the fares and stop people from riding the bus for free  

Increasing fares and cutting service will worsen the problem. With so many people out of work, people may be struggling to afford the fare and thus ride for free. Upping the cost will only increase the problem

 

5 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

When Trump is gone, we'll keep hearing about how he's at fault for everything, the same way they treated Bush. LOL Obama was a saint and Bush messed up everything.

I will agree that harping on former presidents is useless but that doesn’t clear them of past failures. Donald trump because he is pretty much a manchild decided that he wasnt going to bail out New York because we hurt his feelings. This clown has proven that he is unable to manage anything let alone run a country.

[67thAve]

15 hours ago, MHV9218 said:

Sorry, but that's a bad solution to a misdiagnosed problem. The MTA's shoddy planning with bus routes is frustrating, but amount to losses in the hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars at worst. No transit system, even running an unthinkable surplus, could ever have dealt with the 90% loss of farebox revenue the pandemic induced. You're comparing apples and oranges. 

Privatization has a dreadful track record. Locally, consider what happened then Veolia took over LI Bus/NICE. Safety levels plummeted, accidents skyrocketed, breakdowns went through the roof, and service is still dreadful. NICE actually had to lower the threshold for what's considered an accident in order to make their system look safe. It's a mess. Then, look around the world. The British privatization model has been a failure that has taken decades to undo, and TfL is actually an example of essentially un-privatizing after the mess of the Thatcher years. There are extremely few examples of successful privatization, and when there are, it's in name-only (a government-subsidized operation run by a private contractor). 

 

You have no idea what you are talking about. You claimed that NYC 'couldn't manage its finance' despite developing the largest pocket of saved money in decades thanks to a surplus. You ignored Trump's unbelievable recklessness with the deficit. You ignored his $5.5 trillion tax cut, the likes of which Obama (the 'someone else') would never have even dreamed of passing. You continue the conflate specific crisis of the pandemic (a multi-billion deficit) with the operating expenses of the MTA in past years. Please. You are embarrassing yourself. Read up on some, truly any of these issues and spare us these remarks.

Considering that Transdev had to work with some really threadbare budgets during their tenure at NICE, I'd say that they did a decent job considering the circumstances... certainly better than the MTA would have done in the same situation.

As for TfL, bus operations in Greater London were never deregulated. Neither were those in Northern Ireland (but there's a different reason for that). Outside of London, there have been many private operation success stories, such as Stagecoach East Scotland's express network and TrentBarton.

Edited November 19, 2020 by 67thAve

[MHV9218]

5 hours ago, MysteriousBtrain said:

Long story short, it's not just Trump's fault. Y'all keep glancing over the 2010 budget cuts like that wasn't a thing. Not to even mention how LIB disappeared into thin air a year later. And just because Biden became president elect dosen't mean the problems will disappear overnight (even with plans for re-improving Amtrak).

MTA heads were already terrible with budget management. What Trump did to "stall and look good" (during a pandemic at that) made it just worse. 

Nobody's glancing over it. I don't know how to put this clearly enough. The 2010 budgets cuts were not even CLOSE to the level of this catastrophe. By different estimates, the budget gap was in the range of $500-750 million. Or about 1/10 of what we're talking about. And LIB went away because Nassau County had a shitfit and decided they didn't want to pay for service, nothing to do with the MTA's fiscal state. 

Everybody keeps saying "the MTA was bad with their budget." The MTA's overpriced contracts and poor management maybe contributed to 5%, at most 10% of its budget woes. That's why we had constant issues with the state.

This is a 90% reduction in farebox revenue. Transit agencies can't survive something like that, point blank. There is absolutely nothing the MTA could have done to take that and make it through fine. Not cuts, not service changes, nothing. It's just math. I don't know why people aren't seeing this.

And no, the lack of a stimulus – the reason we're in this mess – isn't just Trump's fault. It's his fault and the fault of Republicans in Congress.

Edited November 19, 2020 by MHV9218

[Lex]

7 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

At that time, it was not ok to go strolling around traveling as an American, and we were warned to avoid certain places, as there was a lot of opposition to the Iraq War and hostility towards Americans living abroad. Our military affords us certain luxuries that we take for granted. That's the point.

I'd call this a leap of logic but I don't think "leap" is strong enough for this.

[NewFlyer 230]

6 hours ago, MysteriousBtrain said:

Long story short, it's not just Trump's fault. Y'all keep glancing over the 2010 budget cuts like that wasn't a thing. Not to even mention how LIB disappeared into thin air a year later. And just because Biden became president elect dosen't mean the problems will disappear overnight (even with plans for re-improving Amtrak).

MTA heads were already terrible with budget management. What Trump did to "stall and look good" (during a pandemic at that) made it just worse. 

I don’t think it’s fair that everyone blames him for everything that goes wrong. I get a lot of people don’t like him but there are other figures in government who also hold power that are responsible for the things that happen in our country. 

 

4 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

When Trump is gone, we'll keep hearing about how he's at fault for everything, the same way they treated Bush. LOL Obama was a saint and Bush messed up everything.

Of course, because it’s apparent that our mainstream media leans more to the left and can’t say anything bad about Democrats even if there is evidence out there to show the wrong they did. I believe in equal representation in media, so if you are democrat and do something bad it should be criticized the same way a republican would be criticized if they did something wrong. All of this covering up the media does just create to more frustration and confusion. 

Obama deported more immigrants in his first four years than Trump, but of course since Trump is terrible in everyone’s eyes, he gets crapped on heavy while Obama gets a pass. 

4 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

To be fair,  makes it easy to farebeat...

Some station agents/bus drivers don't even care, while others will report it. But the turnstiles are what allow the constant fare beating to occur, as well as bus operators opening the rear door on buses when it's not needed. 

And let's not forget that didn't help their case when they did the ESI project and made the walls in the fare zone so short that anyone could hop over it.

If I was a bus operator I probably wouldn’t say anything either, because some people out there are ready to beat and or kill you for telling them to follow the rules and pay the bus fare. It’s like how dare me for doing my job and calling you out on your wrong. 
I’ve seen on several occasions how a passenger got so offended, because they were told to pay their fare. I remember one driver on the Q25 stood his ground and eventually the person got off the bus. At the end of the day bus drivers might want to say something but at the end of the day they probably think it’s either my life or the loss of $2.75. It is sad because the loss of $2.75 hurts the agency as a whole.

[Cait Sith]

7 hours ago, MysteriousBtrain said:

Long story short, it's not just Trump's fault. Y'all keep glancing over the 2010 budget cuts like that wasn't a thing. Not to even mention how LIB disappeared into thin air a year later. And just because Biden became president elect dosen't mean the problems will disappear overnight (even with plans for re-improving Amtrak).

MTA heads were already terrible with budget management. What Trump did to "stall and look good" (during a pandemic at that) made it just worse. 

You're saying things we already know and what was already iterated...idk what LIB has to do with anything considering that Nassau County owed the MTA money, and that douche nozzle Ed Mangano(a republican, mind you) refused to pay....then started to cut NICE's funds(when they started out with 106 Million, you know, the same amount they owed the MTA) when they were actually doing good(hence why they were in the shits early on, it took them YEARS to recover).

What makes that even funnier, that he was on trial several times for misuse of county funds....aint that something!😄

5 hours ago, happy283 said:

While I am not familiar with the Rt 9 Exp situation, I have heard that NJ Gov Murphy plans to increase the gas tax to help find NJT. While there has been some minimal cuts to rail, PTC has been cited as the reason but I am doubtful that is really why. However, those cuts were minimal and are not nearly as disasterous as the proposed MTA ones. I am not led to believe more is to come at NJT.

Well, believe what you want, but more cuts are coming. They're actively having their own traffic checkers ride the buses to figure out where to cut service and how to do so. The Route 9 corridor got cut pretty hard(think of that corridor like Staten Island's expresses). South Jersey is actively getting ridership checks and parts of Central Jersey is getting this too.

The same thing is currently happening on the rails. Your claim is based on the idea that they'll do one big chunk of cuts in one shot, that's not what NJT is doing....they're using their passenger counter data to figure where and how to cut service.

Edited November 19, 2020 by Cait Sith

[Via Garibaldi 8]

5 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

To be fair,  makes it easy to farebeat...

Some station agents/bus drivers don't even care, while others will report it. But the turnstiles are what allow the constant fare beating to occur, as well as bus operators opening the rear door on buses when it's not needed. 

And let's not forget that didn't help their case when they did the ESI project and made the walls in the fare zone so short that anyone could hop over it.

Never mind that though. Per @MHV9218, gotta bail 'em out no matter what the figure, despite their incompetence! If got most of the $225+ million they lost in one year to fare beating and you repeated that for a few years, that would be close to a billion right there.

[MHV9218]

5 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Never mind that though. Per @MHV9218, gotta bail 'em out no matter what the figure, despite their incompetence! If got most of the $225+ million they lost in one year to fare beating and you repeated that for a few years, that would be close to a billion right there.

Please, you're making yourself sound stupid. The budget deficit is $16.2 billion through the next few years. The cost of farebeating would amount to, at best, 1/16 of the budget problem at hand. Why are you even bringing it up as a solution? And I shouldn't even have to point out that you couldn't recoup that money from farebeating this year because there are 90% fewer riders in the first place.

Edited November 19, 2020 by MHV9218

[Via Garibaldi 8]

2 hours ago, MHV9218 said:

Nobody's glancing over it. I don't know how to put this clearly enough. The 2010 budgets cuts were not even CLOSE to the level of this catastrophe. By different estimates, the budget gap was in the range of $500-750 million. Or about 1/10 of what we're talking about. And LIB went away because Nassau County had a shitfit and decided they didn't want to pay for service, nothing to do with the MTA's fiscal state. 

Everybody keeps saying "the MTA was bad with their budget." The MTA's overpriced contracts and poor management maybe contributed to 5%, at most 10% of its budget woes. That's why we had constant issues with the state.

This is a 90% reduction in farebox revenue. Transit agencies can't survive something like that, point blank. There is absolutely nothing the MTA could have done to take that and make it through fine. Not cuts, not service changes, nothing. It's just math. I don't know why people aren't seeing this.

And no, the lack of a stimulus – the reason we're in this mess – isn't just Trump's fault. It's his fault and the fault of Republicans in Congress.

Oh please. They reduced Metro-North service to the bare bones and have since the pandemic started because ridership plummeted. Meanwhile they didn't scale back on the buses or subways and they could have reduced service in some places. You don't spend like a drunken sailor when the revenue isn't coming in. They got $4 billion in the first stimulus from the "evil Republicans" that hate transportation. Burned through that. Now they want $12 billion for ONE year, and they'll be coming back again begging with the same story. Their financial situation was a mess before COVID, with an economy that was booming. You like to glance over all of that though. lol

[Via Garibaldi 8]

8 minutes ago, MHV9218 said:

Please, you're making yourself sound stupid. The budget deficit is $16.2 billion through the next few years. The cost of farebeating would amount to, at best, 1/16 of the budget problem at hand. Why are you even bringing it up as a solution? And I shouldn't even have to point out that you couldn't recoup that money from farebeating this year because there are 90% fewer riders in the first place.

No, I'm showing how despite their incompetence and mismanagement, people like you think we should give them whatever the hell they ask for without expecting them to get their house in order. Even without this situation, they would STILL be planning to raise the fares next year because they are now required to by law to try to stop the bleeding, so stop using COVID as the excuse why their fiscal house is a mess. If it was solely COVID related, they would get a pass, but they've been a mess for years, with no end in sight. They have no plan to address fare beating... Not last year when they moaned about losing $225+ million, and not this year either when reports show that fare beating is increasing, so let's bail them out with $12 billion and let them come back next year hat in hand begging again. 

Edited November 19, 2020 by Via Garibaldi 8

[MHV9218]

6 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Oh please. They reduced Metro-North service to the bare bones and have since the pandemic started because ridership plummeted. Meanwhile they didn't scale back on the buses or subways and they could have reduced service in some places. You don't spend like a drunken sailor when the revenue isn't coming in. They got $4 billion in the first stimulus from the "evil Republicans" that hate transportation. Burned through that. Now they want $12 billion for ONE year, and they'll be coming back again begging with the same story. Their financial situation was a mess before COVID, with an economy that was booming. You like to glance over all of that though. lol

Nearly every part of this comment is wrong or misinformed.

"Meanwhile they didn't scale back on the buses or subways and they could have reduced service in some places. You don't spend like a drunken sailor when the revenue isn't coming in"

The buses and subways were scaled back as much as possible given the necessity of getting essential workers from place to place with social distancing. Did you really want a city where healthcare workers and delivery workers couldn't get anywhere, or that they had to be packed together and unable to distance?

"They got $4 billion ... burned through that."

That was the first 1/4 of the deficit, which allowed them to make it through the end of the year. They didn't burn through anything, they merely preserved a system that was the lifeblood of the city without defaulting on their debtors and destroying the bond market.

"Now they want $12 billion for ONE year, and they'll be coming back again begging with the same story."

Again, I implore you, read a newspaper, a Tweet, anything. They want $12 billion for the budget deficit of $16 billion through 2024. It's 12 because they got 4 already. They will not be "begging with the same story."

These debates are not fun when you refuse to do any of your basic research or homework. 

Edited November 19, 2020 by MHV9218

[Cait Sith]

Just now, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Oh please. They reduced Metro-North service to the bare bones and have since the pandemic started because ridership plummeted. Meanwhile they didn't scale back on the buses or subways and they could have reduced service in some places. You don't spend like a drunken sailor when the revenue isn't coming in. They got $4 billion in the first stimulus from the "evil Republicans" that hate transportation. Burned through that. Now they want $12 billion for ONE year, and they'll be coming back again begging with the same story. Their financial situation was a mess before COVID, with an economy that was booming. You like to glance over all of that though. lol

Shows how much you don't ride the subways and local buses, because most of the lines had their headways cut pretty hard during the worst of it...

My E and F lines were reduced to 20-40 minute headways during the peak of the pandemic, Lexington Avenue was reduced to 20. A and C lines were hit the worst, as the C was reduced to 40 minutes and the A was hit 20-30 minutes. The 7 was hit with 15 minute headways. Most of the bus lines were running with reduced sunday schedules. More service was added when NYC started their phase openings....and I didn't take the subway until that happened, I was primarily on the LIRR(also because they were rarely checking tickets🤐).

FYI, the New Haven/Waterbury/Danbury Lines got hit the worst at Metro-North, but they started bringing back services around the same time too. The Hudson Line is still in shambles with low ridership.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Just now, MHV9218 said:

Nearly every part of this comment is wrong or misinformed.

"Meanwhile they didn't scale back on the buses or subways and they could have reduced service in some places. You don't spend like a drunken sailor when the revenue isn't coming in"

The buses and subways were scaled back as much as possible given the necessity of getting essential workers from place to place with social distancing. Did you really want a city where healthcare workers and delivery workers couldn't get anywhere, or that they had to be packed together and unable to distance?

"They got $4 billion ... burned through that."

They didn't burn through anything, they merely preserved a system that was the lifeblood of the city without defaulting on their debtors and destroying the bond market.

"Now they want $12 billion for ONE year, and they'll be coming back again begging with the same story."

Again, I implore you, read a newspaper, a Tweet, anything. They want $12 billion for the budget deficit of $16 billion through 2024. It's 12 because they got 4 already. They will not be "begging with the same story."

These debates are not fun when you refuse to do any of your basic research or homework. 

Pat Foye clearly said that they want $12 billion, which will get them through 2021. I watched the interviews with him and those were the words out of his mouth directly, so no newspaper needs to be read. I read plenty of them. Watch one of his interviews sometimes... 

[MHV9218]

Just now, Cait Sith said:

Shows how much you don't ride the subways and local buses, because most of the lines had their headways cut pretty hard during the worst of it...

My E and F lines were reduced to 20-40 minute headways during the peak of the pandemic, Lexington Avenue was reduced to 20. A and C lines were hit the worst, as the C was reduced to 40 minutes and the A was hit 20-30 minutes. The 7 was hit with 15 minute headways. Most of the bus lines were running with reduced sunday schedules. More service was added when NYC started their phase openings....and I didn't take the subway until that happened, I was primarily on the LIRR(also because they were rarely checking tickets🤐).

FYI, the New Haven/Waterbury/Danbury Lines got hit the worst at Metro-North, but they started bringing back services around the same time too. The Hudson Line is still in shambles with low ridership.

And again, why weren't they cut any more? Because essential workers had to get places, and because it would have dangerous and unethical to cram people like cattle into subway cars during a pandemic. He doesn't even pretend to understand the subway.

[Lex]

1 minute ago, Cait Sith said:

Shows how much you don't ride the subways and local buses, because most of the lines had their headways cut pretty hard during the worst of it...

My E and F lines were reduced to 20-40 minute headways during the peak of the pandemic, Lexington Avenue was reduced to 20. A and C lines were hit the worst, as the C was reduced to 40 minutes and the A was hit 20-30 minutes. The 7 was hit with 15 minute headways. Most of the bus lines were running with reduced sunday schedules. More service was added when NYC started their phase openings....and I didn't take the subway until that happened, I was primarily on the LIRR(also because they were rarely checking tickets🤐).

FYI, the New Haven/Waterbury/Danbury Lines got hit the worst at Metro-North, but they started bringing back services around the same time too. The Hudson Line is still in shambles with low ridership.

Funny that you mention that, actually...

[Lawrence St]

1 minute ago, Cait Sith said:

Shows how much you don't ride the subways and local buses, because most of the lines had their headways cut pretty hard during the worst of it...

My E and F lines were reduced to 20-40 minute headways during the peak of the pandemic, Lexington Avenue was reduced to 20. A and C lines were hit the worst, as the C was reduced to 40 minutes and the A was hit 20-30 minutes. The 7 was hit with 15 minute headways. Most of the bus lines were running with reduced sunday schedules. More service was added when NYC started their phase openings....and I didn't take the subway until that happened, I was primarily on the LIRR(also because they were rarely checking tickets🤐).

FYI, the New Haven/Waterbury/Danbury Lines got hit the worst at Metro-North, but they started bringing back services around the same time too. The Hudson Line is still in shambles with low ridership.

Not to mention the  was also eliminated for pretty much the first two weeks of the pandemic which resulted in the  headways going up to almost 40 minutes.

[MHV9218]

Just now, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Pat Foye clearly said that they want $12 billion, which will get them through 2021. I watched the interviews with him and those were the words out of his mouth directly, so no newspaper needs to be read. I read plenty of them. Watch one of his interviews sometimes... 

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/21/nyregion/mta-subway-financial-cuts.html

"With forecasts showing a staggering budget shortfall of $16.2 billion through 2024, transit leaders now say that at least some of these cuts are unavoidable as the system copes with the devastating impact of the coronavirus pandemic. The agency’s two year budget for 2020-21 totaled $34.5 billion.

“There have been financial crises before, but never one where the deficits were measured in billions on top of billions on top of billions of dollars,” Patrick J. Foye, the M.T.A. chairman, said in an interview. “That’s why these unpalatable, unacceptable alternatives have to be considered.”

[Via Garibaldi 8]

4 minutes ago, Cait Sith said:

Shows how much you don't ride the subways and local buses, because most of the lines had their headways cut pretty hard during the worst of it...

My E and F lines were reduced to 20-40 minute headways during the peak of the pandemic, Lexington Avenue was reduced to 20. A and C lines were hit the worst, as the C was reduced to 40 minutes and the A was hit 20-30 minutes. The 7 was hit with 15 minute headways. Most of the bus lines were running with reduced sunday schedules. More service was added when NYC started their phase openings....and I didn't take the subway until that happened, I was primarily on the LIRR(also because they were rarely checking tickets🤐).

FYI, the New Haven/Waterbury/Danbury Lines got hit the worst at Metro-North, but they started bringing back services around the same time too. The Hudson Line is still in shambles with low ridership.

Yes, but not the entire time. Of course at one point service was scaled back, but that has not been the case the entire time. That's my point. Metro-North has been scaled back from the beginning. The buses and subways have not.

Edited November 19, 2020 by Via Garibaldi 8

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 minute ago, MHV9218 said:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/21/nyregion/mta-subway-financial-cuts.html

"With forecasts showing a staggering budget shortfall of $16.2 billion through 2024, transit leaders now say that at least some of these cuts are unavoidable as the system copes with the devastating impact of the coronavirus pandemic. The agency’s two year budget for 2020-21 totaled $34.5 billion.

“There have been financial crises before, but never one where the deficits were measured in billions on top of billions on top of billions of dollars,” Patrick J. Foye, the M.T.A. chairman, said in an interview. “That’s why these unpalatable, unacceptable alternatives have to be considered.”

Quote whoever you want. I watched an interview LIVE with him this morning. I know what he said, because he said it directly. lol

[MHV9218]

Just now, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Yes, but not the entire time. Of course at one point service was scaled back, but that has not been the case the entire time. That's my point. Metro-Morth has been scaled back from the beginning. The buses and subways have not.

I will say it for the third time.  

Buses and subways were scaled back as much as possible given the necessity of getting essential workers from place to place with social distancing. It would have been dangerous and immoral to cram essential workers into cars like cattle. Did you really want a city where healthcare workers and delivery workers couldn't get anywhere, or that they had to be packed together and unable to distance?

[MHV9218]

Just now, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Quote whoever you want. I watched an interview LIVE with him this morning. I know what he said, because he said it directly. lol

So you misunderstood or simply failed to comprehend his comment. It's okay – I've provided the facts for you.