BREAKING NEWS: MTA to hold off on approving draconian cuts to NYC transit — but LIRR riders will take a hit

[biGC323232]

16 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

That's neither here nor there. There are people riding for free at skyhigh rates that the  screamed and yelled about for most of 2019 when they lost $225+ million. If they started collecting that they could recoup a good $1 billion right there over about five years or so. 

I seen it plenty of times on the local buses...But do ppl actually farebeat on express buses???

[trainfan22]

11 minutes ago, biGC323232 said:

I seen it plenty of times on the local buses...But do ppl actually farebeat on express buses???

Last time I rode the Thoggs Neck express bus some guy tried to farebeat on that bus. Driver simply didn't move until he got off. I'd say it depends on the driver.

[Jdog14]

24 minutes ago, biGC323232 said:

I seen it plenty of times on the local buses...But do ppl actually farebeat on express buses???

 

It happens but not as much as the local bus. Some drivers just don't want to be bothered. I had a kid try to board a BM1 using the old school "can I can a ride", and the driver wasn't having it. 

[B35 via Church]

5 hours ago, JAzumah said:

They already have! The B46 local carries more passengers than ANY express bus in the city and we are having 15-20 minute gaps in service now.

Sure, but that was a prevalent phenomenon prior to the pandemic though.... That crap has more to do with trying to pile everyone onto SBS' - with which that particular instance (bus route) being a mere microcosm of slyly cutting service system-wide.... That worsening of B46 service was disgustingly intentional & I get miffed whenever I hear/read anyone making any sort of an inkling/mention/reference to it - especially as someone that prefers to disembark at either Snyder (from points south) or at Linden (from points north)...

...and of course, the whole, service past Dekalb, towards WBP bit.

3 hours ago, JAzumah said:

Barely 1/2 the drivers even count the fare beaters any more. The numbers you see are largely the people that pay. In any event, I suspect the MTA's Eagle Team will go contactless in the future by identifying fare beaters via wireless cameras on the bus and ringing them up with facial recognition.

2 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

That's neither here nor there. There are people riding for free at skyhigh rates that the  screamed and yelled about for most of 2019 when they lost $225+ million. If they started collecting that they could recoup a good $1 billion right there over about five years or so. 

Either way we look at it, it's all a testament to how lax the MTA has (historically) been when it comes to the farebeating issue.... I mean seriously, where was an "Eagle Team" before this "Eagle Team" became the "Eagle Team"? In other words, the attempt to tackle the issue was so embarrassingly feeble, it's essentially inexistent... I'd go as far as to say it's (the lack of an attempt) intentional.... The fact of the matter is, they don't want to provide adequate service (i.e., as much as they've been providing over the years) anyway... Of course riders that primarily use one mode (the LIRR in this case) will take a hit today... Question is, what modal sect of riders will it be tomorrow? Same broken record with this agency....

Lol @ whatever outcries that was had of them losing 225 million - AFAIC, they gave all that f***ing money away over the years to further justify future cuts..... I just don't have tolerance for negligence & irresponsibility on any scale; whether it's from an entity that's a minuscule as a single lawbreaker/farebeater, to as large as an agency such as the MTA..... Although the circumstances with which this particular situation was derived by is unfortunate (referring to covid/crisis), I still find it funny as shit when the MTA feigns concern over making service cuts... Don't know about you guys, but I don't like to be pissed on & told that it's rain afterwards & oh it'll just dry off.... Everytime I hear/read about some cut to bus/subway/railroad service, it's like what in the f*** else is new... Whether they're announced to the public or underhandedly done (Surprise!!!!! The ____am/pm trip off ____ route's been eliminated or "merged"), the shit is par for the course.... The MTA & the way it's ran would make you want to detest public transportation.... Sarcastically speaking, it's a wonder why ridership's been bleeding out for as long as it has, to the extent that it has.

[JAzumah]

3 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Sure, but that was a prevalent phenomenon prior to the pandemic though.... That crap has more to do with trying to pile everyone onto SBS' - with which that particular instance (bus route) being a mere microcosm of slyly cutting service system-wide.... That worsening of B46 service was disgustingly intentional & I get miffed whenever I hear/read anyone making any sort of an inkling/mention/reference to it - especially as someone that prefers to disembark at either Snyder (from points south) or at Linden (from points north)...

It becomes worse when you have a driver shortage due to quarantine requirements. The MTA could reduce services to provide that buffer and charge it to the COVID account, but that is entirely too much work for some people.

 

[JAzumah]

6 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

That's neither here nor there. There are people riding for free at skyhigh rates that the  screamed and yelled about for most of 2019 when they lost $225+ million. If they started collecting that they could recoup a good $1 billion right there over about five years or so. 

As B35 via Church correctly points out, they could make most of that disappear tomorrow. It is a combination of the MTA's indifference + the social climate driven by reinforcing poor services in poorer communities. The commuter van drivers have ZERO protection and people are not beating them out of money on the same routes. In fact, certain people don't get picked up by them if they are known to be chronic fare beaters.  

[NewFlyer 230]

9 hours ago, JAzumah said:

Barely 1/2 the drivers even count the fare beaters any more. The numbers you see are largely the people that pay. In any event, I suspect the MTA's Eagle Team will go contactless in the future by identifying fare beaters via wireless cameras on the bus and ringing them up with facial recognition.

I think the MTA dropped the ball big time with the eagle team. Where are these guys at, can anyone tell me because I rarely ever see them. I take the Q44 SBS all the time and I haven’t seen anyone checking for tickets for I don’t know how long. I have always said that if the eagle team checked tickets more regularly, then more people would consider paying. Currently as it stands now a lot of people are willing to take their chances with not paying, because there is a very high chance of them being able to ride without any type of inspection. I see people all the time running up to catch the bus as it is about to pull off and they are allowed to board without a ticket. That’s purely the MTA’s fault. That’s why with almost every route that got converted into a SBS route the route lost ridership according to the MTA’s numbers. Now that may not necessarily mean that less people rode the bus but it could point to the fact that more people are not paying. So I agree with VG8 that if they started making more appearances the MTA could easily make up a lot of lost revenue. Shoot if you have to, the police from time to time should ride on buses and you’ll recover even more revenue from Local/LTD routes. 

12 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

The fact of the matter is we need to preserve ALL modes of transportation if the City is going to fully recover when the pandemic is over. You are using averages, but some express buses have been standing room only, not to mention that we want to encourage usage and have people socially distanced. You encourage packed express buses, and you will just have a slower commute for all riders, as more cars will be on the road.

I agree with this for even just the sake of the drivers and other employees keeping their jobs but what happens if the MTA isn’t able to get the money that they are looking for? With another lockdown being teased I really don’t see it looking good for the MTA at all. At least within the last few months with the restriction easing up you had more people utilizing the system but if another lockdown happens that could hit the MTA even harder, because now you don’t have those people using the buses anymore and on top of that you are running near normal service that isn’t being utilized. That’s why personally I have questioned the overall benefit of the lockdowns because I believe that it will hurt more people in the long run. But it is what it is and only time will tell. I’m just hoping for the best. 

I’m not 100% sure but is it true that express buses cost more to operate? I know by me the QM4 carries air and prior to covid its ridership has been decreasing for years. I want to keep as much service as possible but if people aren’t utilizing it then service should be adjusted. I know a lot of other Queens express routes carry air on plenty of their trips and I can’t see the MTA keeping those trips around especially if operating cost are high and they continue to lose tons of money. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

13 minutes ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

I’m not 100% sure but is it true that express buses cost more to operate? I know by me the QM4 carries air and prior to covid its ridership has been decreasing for years. I want to keep as much service as possible but if people aren’t utilizing it then service should be adjusted. I know a lot of other Queens express routes carry air on plenty of their trips and I can’t see the MTA keeping those trips around especially if operating cost are high and they continue to lose tons of money. 

Listen... Express buses, the LIRR, Metro-North and the ferries ALL have high subsidies. That's what it is, and the neighborhoods that don't have subway access, that's not our fault. It's ALWAYS been understood that neighborhoods that did not have subways were LESS desirable to live in. That meant LOWER property values, especially areas in two fare zones before the Metrocard, so you had to pay for the local bus AND the subway to get to them, so the express buses came in at a higher price, with the understanding that you got a faster commute for a slightly higher fare. The QM4 and many other Queens lines had higher ridership back in the day. For starters the fare wasn't as high and the trips didn't take as long, so the travel times were in line with taking the local bus and the subway. The service was MUCH better before the  took over these lines. No one is going to pay for poor service, and the QM4 has been a line with lots of service issues over the years. I know because I took a lot of off-peak trips to see for myself, which is when service is the worse. I was shocked at how late some trips were. 

Going back to what I was saying, there are dozens of neighborhoods where the subway does not reach. The City and the  know this, and that's why the express buses exist, to try to level the playing field for the areas that don't have subways, not to mention how many subway stations are not accessible for the elderly and disabled. They also know how expensive it would be to BUILD subways and make them accessible. That's why there has been NO subway expansion in the outer boroughs, because ultimately it is still cheaper to run express buses, ferries and the railroads in the outer boroughs, despite the subsides.

[GreatOne2k]

MTA is supposed to be reimbursed for any losses for MTA Bus, so cutting express bus service won't save MTA money in the long term, it just increases the NYC Ferry budget.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

39 minutes ago, GreatOne2k said:

MTA is supposed to be reimbursed for any losses for MTA Bus, so cutting express bus service won't save MTA money in the long term, it just increases the NYC Ferry budget.

That is correct. The City reimburses  Bus for any loses, and the  knows this. The City asked the  to take over the private express buses to reduce costs, as they would have all of the express buses under one agency. Made it easier for swapping fleet and a number of other things from an operational perspective. The  is just trying to see if they can cut service and get away with it.

[Gotham Bus Co.]

8 hours ago, GreatOne2k said:

MTA is supposed to be reimbursed for any losses for MTA Bus, so cutting express bus service won't save MTA money in the long term, it just increases the NYC Ferry budget.

That "blank check" probably won't last forever, and the City may well ask for service cuts just to reduce the reimbursement.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

27 minutes ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

That "blank check" probably won't last forever, and the City may well ask for service cuts just to reduce the reimbursement.

That check should last. The City or the  haven't suddenly started providing funding to build subways in the outer boroughs.

[JAzumah]

7 hours ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

That "blank check" probably won't last forever, and the City may well ask for service cuts just to reduce the reimbursement.

I expect that the MTA will cut $30M from MTA Bus's operating expenses to keep the payout flat for 2021.

[MHV9218]

It now looks like McConnell has successfully pushed state and local aid out of the bill. It will be relegated to a separate bill that is not being passed at the same time as the main covid relief (unemployment benefits, vaccine distribution, etc.) bill. The separate bill ties state and local aid (which Democrats want; that's what saves the MTA and all of our states and cities) to the absolving of corporate responsibility for covid illness and death (what Republicans want).

The MTA made this announcement when it believed it would be receiving funding. I don't know what they're going to do now. Keep hoping? This won't get a vote until next year.

[R10 2952]

The Democrats failed to flip the Senate, I'm not optimistic about Georgia, and November 2022 is a while away so there's basically jack shit the MTA can do at this point.

[NewFlyer 230]

17 hours ago, GreatOne2k said:

MTA is supposed to be reimbursed for any losses for MTA Bus, so cutting express bus service won't save MTA money in the long term, it just increases the NYC Ferry budget.

So I guess this is why MTA Bus service (at least on the local/LTD side) barely has seen any major cuts besides the elimination of the Q89 and the cut back of many Q22 trips to Rockaway Park B.116th street. There are some routes that I believe like the Q21 that should of been eliminated years ago because of how redundant it is.

18 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Listen... Express buses, the LIRR, Metro-North and the ferries ALL have high subsidies. That's what it is, and the neighborhoods that don't have subway access, that's not our fault. It's ALWAYS been understood that neighborhoods that did not have subways were LESS desirable to live in. That meant LOWER property values, especially areas in two fare zones before the Metrocard, so you had to pay for the local bus AND the subway to get to them, so the express buses came in at a higher price, with the understanding that you got a faster commute for a slightly higher fare. The QM4 and many other Queens lines had higher ridership back in the day. For starters the fare wasn't as high and the trips didn't take as long, so the travel times were in line with taking the local bus and the subway. The service was MUCH better before the  took over these lines. No one is going to pay for poor service, and the QM4 has been a line with lots of service issues over the years. I know because I took a lot of off-peak trips to see for myself, which is when service is the worse. I was shocked at how late some trips were. 

Going back to what I was saying, there are dozens of neighborhoods where the subway does not reach. The City and the  know this, and that's why the express buses exist, to try to level the playing field for the areas that don't have subways, not to mention how many subway stations are not accessible for the elderly and disabled. They also know how expensive it would be to BUILD subways and make them accessible. That's why there has been NO subway expansion in the outer boroughs, because ultimately it is still cheaper to run express buses, ferries and the railroads in the outer boroughs, despite the subsides.

I remember the lines that the QM4 used to have in the morning while waiting for the Q64 and it’s just sad that over the years it’s ridership basically decreased by half. You just don’t have people waiting it out for the QM4 and many of the other Queens expresses buses anymore and I know a lot factors into that should as a shift in demographics, perhaps the economic recession and etc. However I do think that the MTA lacks any sort of innovative ability and it just shows because they are waiting for the big redesign to modify the bus system when I would argue that they should have been making changes throughout the years to better help serve communities especially those away from any subway line. 

I do wonder how useful a single borough express route would do if for example you had a route going from Rosedale to maybe Long Island City for example. It would perform like a regular express route where it would only pick up people in Rosedale, Springfield Gardens and South Jamaica, then it would run nonstop and would allow drop offs & pick ups at let’s say the Rego Park, Woodhaven & Grand Ave and then run non stop till Long Island city where it would only drop off people. The ultimate goal of the routes would be to connect neighbors from far away to popular shopping districts and etc because not everyone goes to Manhattan. I’m not saying that a Rosedale to Long Island city express route would work but instead I was just presenting a general idea that the MTA should consider testing ideas out. 

 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

11 minutes ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

So I guess this is why MTA Bus service (at least on the local/LTD side) barely has seen any major cuts besides the elimination of the Q89 and the cut back of many Q22 trips to Rockaway Park B.116th street. There are some routes that I believe like the Q21 that should of been eliminated years ago because of how redundant it is.

I remember the lines that the QM4 used to have in the morning while waiting for the Q64 and it’s just sad that over the years it’s ridership basically decreased by half. You just don’t have people waiting it out for the QM4 and many of the other Queens expresses buses anymore and I know a lot factors into that should as a shift in demographics, perhaps the economic recession and etc. However I do think that the MTA lacks any sort of innovative ability and it just shows because they are waiting for the big redesign to modify the bus system when I would argue that they should have been making changes throughout the years to better help serve communities especially those away from any subway line. 

I do wonder how useful a single borough express route would do if for example you had a route going from Rosedale to maybe Long Island City for example. It would perform like a regular express route where it would only pick up people in Rosedale, Springfield Gardens and South Jamaica, then it would run nonstop and would allow drop offs & pick ups at let’s say the Rego Park, Woodhaven & Grand Ave and then run non stop till Long Island city where it would only drop off people. The ultimate goal of the routes would be to connect neighbors from far away to popular shopping districts and etc because not everyone goes to Manhattan. I’m not saying that a Rosedale to Long Island city express route would work but instead I was just presenting a general idea that the MTA should consider testing ideas out. 

 

lol Then that's not really an express bus then, especially making that many stops. The point of  express buses is to connect areas that are far out with limited or no subways to the Central Business Districts (CBDs) of Manhattan, which are Midtown and Downtown.

The QM4 gets a little ridership from Forest Hills (it should get more because there is $$ there), but I suspect because of Shabbat, the Jewish population doesn't use the express bus on Saturday. Sunday they may just drive. Electchester and the rest of the housing developments along Jewel Av are enough to generate ridership, but the service is too unreliable. One tweak that they should have considered was having the QM4 run to Fresh Meadows. They could get some ridership there, and take some pressure off of the QM5.

Edited December 16, 2020 by Via Garibaldi 8

[Cait Sith]

I've noticed some LIRR cuts happening in the summer when service was being restored and more of the LIRR crew was coming back, some of which stuck around. There's been wider gaps in trips between 6pm and 8pm going to Penn Station from Jamaica. Some of the gaps range between 10 and 20 minutes.

Nowadays, Atlantic Terminal trains arrive into Jamaica at least 5-7 minutes early and just sit until the connecting Penn Station train arrives, which is funny to me. I'm not sure if they cut any trains to/from Atlantic Terminal, but they did some changes to trains to/from Penn Station, that's for sure.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

10 minutes ago, Cait Sith said:

I've noticed some LIRR cuts happening in the summer when service was being restored and more of the LIRR crew was coming back, some of which stuck around. There's been wider gaps in trips between 6pm and 8pm going to Penn Station from Jamaica. Some of the gaps range between 10 and 20 minutes.

Nowadays, Atlantic Terminal trains arrive into Jamaica at least 5-7 minutes early and just sit until the connecting Penn Station train arrives, which is funny to me. I'm not sure if they cut any trains to/from Atlantic Terminal, but they did some changes to trains to/from Penn Station, that's for sure.

They should've cut back like Metro-North did. We hear endless complaints about express buses, meanwhile there are plenty of empty LIRR trains during this pandemic.

[JAzumah]

8 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

They should've cut back like Metro-North did. We hear endless complaints about express buses, meanwhile there are plenty of empty LIRR trains during this pandemic.

Yes, they should have. 90% of service? They should be at 60% max. 2 trains per hour during rush hour, 1 train per hour off-peak.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 minute ago, JAzumah said:

Yes, they should have. 90% of service? They should be at 60% max. 2 trains per hour during rush hour, 1 train per hour off-peak.

You mean 90% of ridership is not using the LIRR... But yeah, two trains an hour and one train off-peak is what Metro-North has been doing.

[Cait Sith]

4 minutes ago, JAzumah said:

Yes, they should have. 90% of service? They should be at 60% max. 2 trains per hour during rush hour, 1 train per hour off-peak.

Then we'll hear thousands of complaints from the most spoiled riders in all of the LIRR, the Babylon Branch riders who cry about service but has the most service.

[JAzumah]

1 minute ago, Cait Sith said:

Then we'll hear thousands of complaints from the most spoiled riders in all of the LIRR, the Babylon Branch riders who cry about service but has the most service.

"Thank you for your comments. The MTA values your feedback."

[JAzumah]

It's base frequency time for most routes. If it isn't the SIM1C/SIM4/SIM8, it should be 20-30 minute rush hour service in most areas and 30-60 minutes off-peak. 

That means SI express bus. That means non-SI express buses. That means SIR. That means the LIRR. That might mean routes that I use on occasion like the B65. That means Pascack Valley. That means hourly rush hour service on Port Jervis. That is what it means.

No service above Southeast on Saturdays and Sundays? It annoys me mildly. Bi-hourly service is lifeline service. They should find the money to do it on the weekends as well. Otherwise, the railroad will end up being permanently not an option. Branch lines at bi-hourly service is tolerable. I want people to be able to go anywhere they want in the region without a car if they are willing to plan ahead a little bit. That is why we have an MTA. It is not for luxury service. It is for a base level of mobility to allow the region to function.

The MTA punted today. They should have put a list of service reductions on the table so that our friends in DC can have additional pressure heaped on their heads. The WMATA service cut proposal was bonkers. Now the support staff and lobbyists can no longer rely on Metro to get them home from boozy parties in the Capitol. I am sure more than a few eyeballs were opened at how serious their situation was. MBTA's cuts were substantial. The MTA is "balancing" their budget with $4B in phantom money in order to scoot the fare hike through without a whole lot of blowback and if the second bill with the state and local aid doesn't come through, the MTA will look like a bunch of dummies for having a second round of hearings on massive cuts.

We have this notion that we should spend money because we have it. I don't subscribe to that school of thought.

Edited December 16, 2020 by JAzumah
Clarifying who is balancing their budget with Monopoly money.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

37 minutes ago, JAzumah said:

It's base frequency time for most routes. If it isn't the SIM1C/SIM4/SIM8, it should be 20-30 minute rush hour service in most areas and 30-60 minutes off-peak. 

That means SI express bus. That means non-SI express buses. That means SIR. That means the LIRR. That might mean routes that I use on occasion like the B65. That means Pascack Valley. That means hourly rush hour service on Port Jervis. That is what it means.

No service above Southeast on Saturdays and Sundays? It annoys me mildly. Bi-hourly service is lifeline service. They should find the money to do it on the weekends as well. Otherwise, the railroad will end up being permanently not an option. Branch lines at bi-hourly service is tolerable. I want people to be able to go anywhere they want in the region without a car if they are willing to plan ahead a little bit. That is why we have an MTA. It is not for luxury service. It is for a base level of mobility to allow the region to function.

The MTA punted today. They should have put a list of service reductions on the table so that our friends in DC can have additional pressure heaped on their heads. The WMATA service cut proposal was bonkers. Now the support staff and lobbyists can no longer rely on Metro to get them home from boozy parties in the Capitol. I am sure more than a few eyeballs were opened at how serious their situation was. MBTA's cuts were substantial. The MTA is "balancing" their budget with $4B in phantom money in order to scoot the fare hike through without a whole lot of blowback and if the second bill with the state and local aid doesn't come through, the MTA will look like a bunch of dummies for having a second round of hearings on massive cuts.

We have this notion that we should spend money because we have it. I don't subscribe to that school of thought.

I don't think they would make an about face without having some sort of assurances that they'll be getting something.