BREAKING NEWS: MTA to hold off on approving draconian cuts to NYC transit — but LIRR riders will take a hit

[NewFlyer 230]

2 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

lol Then that's not really an express bus then, especially making that many stops. The point of  express buses is to connect areas that are far out with limited or no subways to the Central Business Districts (CBDs) of Manhattan, which are Midtown and Downtown.

The QM4 gets a little ridership from Forest Hills (it should get more because there is $$ there), but I suspect because of Shabbat, the Jewish population doesn't use the express bus on Saturday. Sunday they may just drive. Electchester and the rest of the housing developments along Jewel Av are enough to generate ridership, but the service is too unreliable. One tweak that they should have considered was having the QM4 run to Fresh Meadows. They could get some ridership there, and take some pressure off of the QM5.

I was thinking that same thing with the QM4. It basically just ends in the middle of nowhere. At least extending it down the Horace Harding to Fresh Meadows can boost ridership but I can see the MTA trying to completely do away with the QM1. I’m quite surprised that the QM1still exist because that route has been taken over by the QM5. 

 

2 hours ago, Cait Sith said:

Then we'll hear thousands of complaints from the most spoiled riders in all of the LIRR, the Babylon Branch riders who cry about service but has the most service.

Do you think they will eliminate all service from Long Island City and Hunterspoint stations? I’m quite surprised that they were not abandoned after regular service via the Lower Montauk branches ended. 

[B35 via Church]

1 hour ago, JAzumah said:

We have this notion that we should spend money because we have it. I don't subscribe to that school of thought.

Not sure if this is inclusive in your philosophical sentiment there, but I would hone it by adding the word aimlessly to it....

My thing is more, people/entities need to get into the practice of primarily budgeting for necessities, over that of for frivolous/meager/non-essential nominal nonsense..... I always have that side eye-for someone that somehow, someway comes up with money for what they want - but when it comes time to spend money for something they need, it's always some sense of discomfort and/or some damn sob story....

So I say that to say, yes, a nest-egg{s} is always good to have... At the same time though, I don't necessarily have a problem with basic spending - as long as it isn't done irresponsibly and/or incompetently..... This agency has a severe problem with money misallocation; prudence is a rather foreign concept.... The MTA has this stringently minimalist mindset when it comes to (wanting to) actually benefiting the riding public; very bizarre for a public transportation agency....

1 minute ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

Do you think they will eliminate all service from Long Island City and Hunterspoint stations? I’m quite surprised that they were not abandoned after regular service via the Lower Montauk branches ended. 

Some time after ESA gets up & running, I'd say it's pretty likely....

[danielhg121]

41 minutes ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

Do you think they will eliminate all service from Long Island City and Hunterspoint stations? I’m quite surprised that they were not abandoned after regular service via the Lower Montauk branches ended. 

I doubt it because it has a purpose just beyond a stub terminal. I don't think they can't fumigate trains at Jamaica quickly enough without disrupting service and only the DM's can go thru to Penn. When ESA opens, only electric trains are allowed I believe because the C3's are too tall to run through so they'll probably still be sent to Hunterspoint/LIC. They can't assure every single train running to Penn is a DM besides those 2 from Port Jeff and I think 1 from Oyster Bay, that would require a lot of coordination. At the end of the day, Hunterspoint and LIC are just part-time terminals to serve the rush-hour crowd and the yard is a bonus to store trains. 

[JAzumah]

2 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I don't think they would make an about face without having some sort of assurances that they'll be getting something.

That's EXACTLY what they did. The second bill with the GOP liability shield and the state/local aid may not move at all.

[JAzumah]

55 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

Not sure if this is inclusive in your philosophical sentiment there, but I would hone it by adding the word aimlessly to it....

It fits perfectly.

[Bay Ridge Express]

4 hours ago, JAzumah said:

They should have put a list of service reductions on the table so that our friends in DC can have additional pressure heaped on their heads.

Riders Alliance already tried to do that. I promise you that it won't make a difference at all--the regions in which these systems are run are mostly D, and if not, then it's likely that they have a R rep that just drives around and doesn't care about transit. It's (mostly) a partisan issue, whether there's lobbyists involved or not.

Edited December 17, 2020 by Bay Ridge Express

[Bay Ridge Express]

6 hours ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

I do wonder how useful a single borough express route would do if for example you had a route going from Rosedale to maybe Long Island City for example. It would perform like a regular express route where it would only pick up people in Rosedale, Springfield Gardens and South Jamaica, then it would run nonstop and would allow drop offs & pick ups at let’s say the Rego Park, Woodhaven & Grand Ave and then run non stop till Long Island city where it would only drop off people. The ultimate goal of the routes would be to connect neighbors from far away to popular shopping districts and etc because not everyone goes to Manhattan. I’m not saying that a Rosedale to Long Island city express route would work but instead I was just presenting a general idea that the MTA should consider testing ideas out. 

 

At that point, you might as well extend it to Manhattan... though I don't see why anyone would take that route over the LIRR.

[Deucey]

6 hours ago, JAzumah said:

We have this notion that we should spend money because we have it. I don't subscribe to that school of thought.

It's less a motion than it is that thanks to conservatism claiming every government expenditure is wasteful, and to liberalism wanting to find funding for programs it thinks need more, any government department or QUANGO that doesn't spend 100% of it's revenue or allocation loses it - spending = need; not spending = overfunding.

[checkmatechamp13]

1 hour ago, Bay Ridge Express said:

Riders Alliance already tried to do that. I promise you that it won't make a difference at all--the regions in which these systems are run are mostly D, and if not, then it's likely that they have a R rep that just drives around and doesn't care about transit. It's (mostly) a partisan issue, whether there's lobbyists involved or not.

Except that was a ridiculous hypothetical that the MTA would never go for...eliminating half the actual subway trunk lines (rather than reducing the frequencies and eliminating supplemental lines). 

[R10 2952]

4 hours ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

Do you think they will eliminate all service from Long Island City and Hunterspoint stations? I’m quite surprised that they were not abandoned after regular service via the Lower Montauk branches ended. 

4 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Some time after ESA gets up & running, I'd say it's pretty likely....

3 hours ago, danielhg121 said:

I doubt it because it has a purpose just beyond a stub terminal. I don't think they can't fumigate trains at Jamaica quickly enough without disrupting service and only the DM's can go thru to Penn. When ESA opens, only electric trains are allowed I believe because the C3's are too tall to run through so they'll probably still be sent to Hunterspoint/LIC. They can't assure every single train running to Penn is a DM besides those 2 from Port Jeff and I think 1 from Oyster Bay, that would require a lot of coordination. At the end of the day, Hunterspoint and LIC are just part-time terminals to serve the rush-hour crowd and the yard is a bonus to store trains. 

I've been saying for years now that the MTA has had a misplaced priority hard-on when it comes to directing the bulk of LIRR service along the Main Line and on to Penn Station.  It's a contributing factor to why Penn can be such a nightmare, and delays just ripple when something goes wrong between Sunnyside-Woodside-Jamaica.

Can't force Niagara Falls through a kitchen faucet; every time they've tried to narrow the other options (Rockaway, Lower Montauk, Atlantic) they just bring the faucet one step closer to bursting.

 

 

[JAzumah]

12 minutes ago, Deucey said:

It's less a motion than it is that thanks to conservatism claiming every government expenditure is wasteful, and to liberalism wanting to find funding for programs it thinks need more, any government department or QUANGO that doesn't spend 100% of it's revenue or allocation loses it - spending = need; not spending = overfunding.

I understand why it is done. I do not agree with it. 

[B35 via Church]

10 hours ago, danielhg121 said:

I doubt it because it has a purpose just beyond a stub terminal. I don't think they can't fumigate trains at Jamaica quickly enough without disrupting service and only the DM's can go thru to Penn. When ESA opens, only electric trains are allowed I believe because the C3's are too tall to run through so they'll probably still be sent to Hunterspoint/LIC. They can't assure every single train running to Penn is a DM besides those 2 from Port Jeff and I think 1 from Oyster Bay, that would require a lot of coordination. At the end of the day, Hunterspoint and LIC are just part-time terminals to serve the rush-hour crowd and the yard is a bonus to store trains. 

In the longrun, I can't see them having dedicated as much time, money, and resources into ESA to still have trains, in service, running to Hunterspoint/LIC.... The very people that are even riding out to LIRR Hunterspoint during the AM rush predominantly gun for the ... Good chance the bulk of those people are seeking the east side of Manhattan; otherwise those folks would embark on a train to Penn....

For what you're mentioning about fumigating, trains wouldn't necessarily need to run in service to LIC/Hunterspoint to have that be accomplished.... I mean, they can take those DM's OOS at Jamaica & run them out there to LIC for that purpose...

As far as assuring every single train running to Penn be a DM, for what exactly? How much total revenue service do they even run on the DM's in juxtaposition to the M7's/M9's? It seems like you meant to convey that (they can't assure) every single DM train run to Penn (if not for having some of them end at LIC/Hunterspoint).... Even if that point was being put on the forefront, I think it's tantamount to being water under the bridge.... Why? because [the amount of overall service that they currently have running in/out of Penn] won't end up equating to [the sum total of overall service running to Manhattan either running to Penn or GCT]... That sum total is going to be less, so it would be less of an issue.... How much less, is the question....

8 hours ago, R10 2952 said:

I've been saying for years now that the MTA has had a misplaced priority hard-on when it comes to directing the bulk of LIRR service along the Main Line and on to Penn Station.  It's a contributing factor to why Penn can be such a nightmare, and delays just ripple when something goes wrong between Sunnyside-Woodside-Jamaica.

Can't force Niagara Falls through a kitchen faucet; every time they've tried to narrow the other options (Rockaway, Lower Montauk, Atlantic) they just bring the faucet one step closer to bursting.

I hear you, but this one's not entirely on the MTA.... As long as riders want Niagara Falls & need the kitchen faucet, the MTA tries to force Niagara Falls through a kitchen faucet.... In other words, if they were to take away some service from Penn to have that service running to Hunterspoint instead, forget it - They would need the whole of the Atlantic ocean to douse the flaming javelins, pitchforks, and what would result from all the hurling of molotov cocktails aimed their way

Quite honestly, I think there's going to be some backlash, even when ESA comes to fruition.... If LIRR riders think service to/from Penn will remain unscathed, with a whole new level of service appended to running to Manhattan via ESA on top of it, they're in for a rude ass awakening !

[danielhg121]

24 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

In the longrun, I can't see them having dedicated as much time, money, and resources into ESA to still have trains, in service, running to Hunterspoint/LIC.... The very people that are even riding out to LIRR Hunterspoint during the AM rush predominantly gun for the ... Good chance the bulk of those people are seeking the east side of Manhattan; otherwise those folks would embark on a train to Penn....

For what you're mentioning about fumigating, trains wouldn't necessarily need to run in service to LIC/Hunterspoint to have that be accomplished.... I mean, they can take those DM's OOS at Jamaica & run them out there to LIC for that purpose...

As far as assuring every single train running to Penn be a DM, for what exactly? How much total revenue service do they even run on the DM's in juxtaposition to the M7's/M9's? It seems like you meant to convey that (they can't assure) every single DM train run to Penn (if not for having some of them end at LIC/Hunterspoint).... Even if that point was being put on the forefront, I think it's tantamount to being water under the bridge.... Why? because [the amount of overall service that they currently have running in/out of Penn] won't end up equating to [the sum total of overall service running to Manhattan either running to Penn or GCT]... That sum total is going to be less, so it would be less of an issue.... How much less, is the question....

I think my original post was a bit scatterbrained so let me try to clarify. It takes time to take trains out of service for fumigation purposes, around 5 mins or so for each train (depending on crew size). Assuming you were to end them at Jamaica, it still clogs up service because there are through running trains. Sending the train to LIC/Hunterspoint alleviates that issue because it keeps the train moving. So regardless of if they carry passengers or not, they might as well run them to LIC/Hunterspoint, just so they don't take up valuable time and track space at Jamaica. 

With ESA opening up, it's not allowing more flexibility to the railroad in terms of the diesels at all, so the issue becomes where do we send them without affecting service? LIC and Hunterspoint are treated as peak only terminals as it is, there's really no cost to the MTA in just maintaining the service there and the bonus is that we get to store some trains there as well for PM peak. You can't really send them all to Penn either, it's a non-starter because it adds more risk to one of the diesels breaking down in there and the fact that the Dual-Electric locos can't go there.

 

[B35 via Church]

1 hour ago, danielhg121 said:

I think my original post was a bit scatterbrained so let me try to clarify. It takes time to take trains out of service for fumigation purposes, around 5 mins or so for each train (depending on crew size). Assuming you were to end them at Jamaica, it still clogs up service because there are through running trains. Sending the train to LIC/Hunterspoint alleviates that issue because it keeps the train moving. So regardless of if they carry passengers or not, they might as well run them to LIC/Hunterspoint, just so they don't take up valuable time and track space at Jamaica. 

With ESA opening up, it's not allowing more flexibility to the railroad in terms of the diesels at all, so the issue becomes where do we send them without affecting service? LIC and Hunterspoint are treated as peak only terminals as it is, there's really no cost to the MTA in just maintaining the service there and the bonus is that we get to store some trains there as well for PM peak. You can't really send them all to Penn either, it's a non-starter because it adds more risk to one of the diesels breaking down in there and the fact that the Dual-Electric locos can't go there.

...which goes back to the question, how many DM's do they even run during the rush, that pans west of Jamaica?

Oh, my stance isn't that of ESA allowing for more flexibility to the DM's in-particular... Even if I put future service cuts aside for a second, what I can see happening is a minimalizing of them running past Huntington, Ronkonkoma, Babylon, and Mineola (OB line), to have more M7's & M9's running to/from Manhattan instead... to induce more xferring overall during the rush.... to have LIC/Hunterspoint end up being utilized for whatever other purpose outside of for revenue service....

[Mtatransit]

21 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

You mean 90% of ridership is not using the LIRR... But yeah, two trains an hour and one train off-peak is what Metro-North has been doing.

Ridership I believe is somewhere to the tune of 24% of normal

 

Them running 90% of normal weekday service is insane. 

 

But I believe the MTA would have to pay the workers even if they don't have to come anyways so I can see why they run the trains. Plus LIRR unions are notoriously hard to work with 

21 hours ago, Cait Sith said:

Then we'll hear thousands of complaints from the most spoiled riders in all of the LIRR, the Babylon Branch riders who cry about service but has the most service.

Oh you will hear the alright...

 

Everytime one of those three stop expresses were combined back in the past, they would always complain the loudest. 

18 hours ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

I was thinking that same thing with the QM4. It basically just ends in the middle of nowhere. At least extending it down the Horace Harding to Fresh Meadows can boost ridership but I can see the MTA trying to completely do away with the QM1. I’m quite surprised that the QM1still exist because that route has been taken over by the QM5. 

 

Do you think they will eliminate all service from Long Island City and Hunterspoint stations? I’m quite surprised that they were not abandoned after regular service via the Lower Montauk branches ended. 

QM4 serves Jewel Avenue, so it isn't necessarily middle of nowhere. That corridor has extremely high transit usages, with many people taking the Q64 to the subway. Maybe back then when there were no free transfers and LIE traffic wasn't as bad people used that route, but today its simply too unreliable. 

 

LIC/Hunterspoint Av is located in a developing area, I think its wise for LIRR to increase service there. But knowing them, they wouldn't do that

Edited December 17, 2020 by Mtatransit

[Via Garibaldi 8]

2 hours ago, Mtatransit said:

Ridership I believe is somewhere to the tune of 24% of normal

 

Them running 90% of normal weekday service is insane. 

 

But I believe the MTA would have to pay the workers even if they don't have to come anyways so I can see why they run the trains. Plus LIRR unions are notoriously hard to work with.

Even if it is, 24% of normal ridership means lots of empty trains, and the subsidies for the LIRR and MNRR are VERY high. 

[bobtehpanda]

11 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

I hear you, but this one's not entirely on the MTA.... As long as riders want Niagara Falls & need the kitchen faucet, the MTA tries to force Niagara Falls through a kitchen faucet.... In other words, if they were to take away some service from Penn to have that service running to Hunterspoint instead, forget it - They would need the whole of the Atlantic ocean to douse the flaming javelins, pitchforks, and what would result from all the hurling of molotov cocktails aimed their way

I don't necessarily think that LIC would be the beneficiary of a less Penn-focused LIRR; throwing non-Penn and non-GCT stations into zone 3 or even a new zone 2 and providing more Atlantic service would probably ease the load up on Penn. Though current ESA plans basically demolish this as a realistic probability.

LIC is kind of in the wrong spot to take advantage of how big of a neighborhood it's becoming; I suspect the most likely option they'll take there is eventually closing the facility and selling off the land or something. They'd make money doing that and using some of the money to expand Morris Park for West Side Yard style operations.

7 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

...which goes back to the question, how many DM's do they even run during the rush, that pans west of Jamaica?

Oh, my stance isn't that of ESA allowing for more flexibility to the DM's in-particular... Even if I put future service cuts aside for a second, what I can see happening is a minimalizing of them running past Huntington, Ronkonkoma, Babylon, and Mineola (OB line), to have more M7's & M9's running to/from Manhattan instead... to induce more xferring overall during the rush.... to have LIC/Hunterspoint end up being utilized for whatever other purpose outside of for revenue service....

The current schedule shows 16 trains a day to LIC/HP. LIRR's service changes after ESA will most likely clear up at least that many slots at Penn.

There's nothing actually wrong with truncating (the DMs are unreliable and have worse performance characteristics so they slow the rest of the trains, most people change trains anyways), but it is real dumb that the hasty 3rd track project only has two platforms and keeps the grade crossing at Mineola, which would be counterproductive for actually terminating trains there in a way that made sense. (And Huntington is just a straight up mess.)

[JAzumah]

MTA worker COVID spike could affect NYC transit service - New York Daily News (nydailynews.com)

[QM1to6Ave]

1 hour ago, JAzumah said:

MTA worker COVID spike could affect NYC transit service - New York Daily News (nydailynews.com)

It won't be nearly as bad as April, but we are quickly moving towards an comfortably close mirroring of that awgul time again. And yet people just can't stop having indoor unmasked social gatherings, so this is gonna be the unfortunate consequence. 

[RtrainBlues]

Will be interesting to see if the drivers will insist on a return to rear-door boarding (until cases abate later in the spring), given this MTA COVID spike.  I don't see any difference "before" and "after" with the driver shields they claim to have installed.  The buses look the same to me with the driver shields as they've always looked the past few years.  The passengers certainly aren't maintaining 6 feet of distance when they are dipping their Metrocard (or searching for coins, or for a valid Metrocard, etc).

[JAzumah]

3 hours ago, QM1to6Ave said:

And yet people just can't stop having indoor unmasked social gatherings, so this is gonna be the unfortunate consequence. 

If the people issuing the regulations can't stop having indoor gatherings, why would the public take them seriously?
 

2 hours ago, RtrainBlues said:

Will be interesting to see if the drivers will insist on a return to rear-door boarding (until cases abate later in the spring), given this MTA COVID spike. 

I don't see that happening because no one can afford the revenue impact. I can see those upfront bench seats being kept in the locked and upright position (or being temporarily removed). I can also see the MTA testing the NJT seats on express buses as being "more simple to sanitize". They could take 10 express bus units that are close to retirement and test it on that equipment.

[JAzumah]

4 hours ago, JAzumah said:

MTA worker COVID spike could affect NYC transit service - New York Daily News (nydailynews.com)

A note:

MBTA was able to reduce the severity of their service cuts by using COVID absences to drastically reduce commuter rail service on an emergency basis. Considering the near daily e-mails about reduced bus service out of specific depots, I would support creating a reserve pool of drivers guaranteed 40 hours a week as long as they were available to come in on 2 hours notice 6 days per week. You could even create multiple reserve pools where one is a 2 hour response and the other is a 24 hour response. That way, the MTA could replace a sick driver from the 2 hour reserve pool and move someone from the 24 hour reserve to the 2 hour reserve to fill in. 

It might even be useful to combine it with a more aggressive PPE program. The MTA could assign six N95 masks to drivers on a weekly basis if they can obtain a reliable supply. Maybe they can be put in vending machines at each depot each week and the MTA reimburses a certain amount on the debit card. 

[dkupf]

Service could and should be aligned with demand.   What should not happen is the blind elimination of bus and subway trips without the evidence to support their eliminations.  In MTA jargon, this is called redlining.

[JAzumah]

33 minutes ago, dkupf said:

Service could and should be aligned with demand.   What should not happen is the blind elimination of bus and subway trips without the evidence to support their eliminations.  In MTA jargon, this is called redlining.

I agree 100%. We know where the red lines usually get drawn. The B15 (for example) is NOT a good candidate for a 33% service reduction.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

10 hours ago, RtrainBlues said:

Will be interesting to see if the drivers will insist on a return to rear-door boarding (until cases abate later in the spring), given this MTA COVID spike.  I don't see any difference "before" and "after" with the driver shields they claim to have installed.  The buses look the same to me with the driver shields as they've always looked the past few years.  The passengers certainly aren't maintaining 6 feet of distance when they are dipping their Metrocard (or searching for coins, or for a valid Metrocard, etc).

 

7 hours ago, JAzumah said:

If the people issuing the regulations can't stop having indoor gatherings, why would the public take them seriously?
 

I don't see that happening because no one can afford the revenue impact. I can see those upfront bench seats being kept in the locked and upright position (or being temporarily removed). I can also see the MTA testing the NJT seats on express buses as being "more simple to sanitize". They could take 10 express bus units that are close to retirement and test it on that equipment.

If they would just wear a damn mask their rates wouldn't be increasing. I STILL see drivers, especially on the local buses maskless like they're invincible. I don't know what these drivers are thinking. Some of them had their whole family with COVID earlier on. By now, I would think a light would go on to put a mask on. 

Edited December 18, 2020 by Via Garibaldi 8