BREAKING NEWS: MTA to hold off on approving draconian cuts to NYC transit — but LIRR riders will take a hit

[NewFlyer 230]

On 12/16/2020 at 10:11 PM, Bay Ridge Express said:

At that point, you might as well extend it to Manhattan... though I don't see why anyone would take that route over the LIRR.

No I wasn’t being serious with that particular routing, I was only using it as an example of a single borough express and how I’d run it. I do think that there is demand for for some outer borough expresses but the MTA would need to do a study on ridership patterns. 

 

21 hours ago, Mtatransit said:

Ridership I believe is somewhere to the tune of 24% of normal

 

Them running 90% of normal weekday service is insane. 

 

But I believe the MTA would have to pay the workers even if they don't have to come anyways so I can see why they run the trains. Plus LIRR unions are notoriously hard to work with 

Oh you will hear the alright...

 

Everytime one of those three stop expresses were combined back in the past, they would always complain the loudest. 

QM4 serves Jewel Avenue, so it isn't necessarily middle of nowhere. That corridor has extremely high transit usages, with many people taking the Q64 to the subway. Maybe back then when there were no free transfers and LIE traffic wasn't as bad people used that route, but today its simply too unreliable. 

 

LIC/Hunterspoint Av is located in a developing area, I think its wise for LIRR to increase service there. But knowing them, they wouldn't do that

I was talking about it’s Queens terminal, not the route itself. The QM4 currently ends at 164th and Horace Harding Expressway and doesn’t have a proper turn around spot for whatever buses make a trip back to Manhattan. It’s first and last stop seem so random in comparison to the QM1, QM2 and so on. It’s as if it were meant to be extended somewhere else but it was just left alone. 

I don’t see L.I.C getting tons of ridership even with all the development going on. Maybe at best a few more trains go there if things develop more over there. As for right now I can see them canceling whatever few trips go there with the upcoming cuts. 

[B35 via Church]

18 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

I don't necessarily think that LIC would be the beneficiary of a less Penn-focused LIRR; throwing non-Penn and non-GCT stations into zone 3 or even a new zone 2 and providing more Atlantic service would probably ease the load up on Penn. Though current ESA plans basically demolish this as a realistic probability.

LIC is kind of in the wrong spot to take advantage of how big of a neighborhood it's becoming; I suspect the most likely option they'll take there is eventually closing the facility and selling off the land or something. They'd make money doing that and using some of the money to expand Morris Park for West Side Yard style operations.

Yeah, LIRR LIC & LIRR Hunterspoint are in terrible locales to take advantage of any future growth that LIC will undergo.... The areas in LIC immediately proximate to both those LIRR stations are becoming much more residential than commercial anyway & the areas in LIC that will undergo future commercial growth is more proximate to Queens Plaza.... The amount of folks commuting from areas due east (by way of the LIRR) to ultimately get to Oueens Plaza/QBP for employment purposes & what not, will not be all that high.... Quite frankly, it's a PITA to commute from [LIRR LIC or LIRR Hunterspoint] to QBP - Whether that be by way of either [getting from platform level to street level from off the ], [putting up with the regressively unreliable B62], or [the inadequate frequencies of the Q67]..... It's why there are as many different company provided or bldg. complex provided shuttles in LIC as it is....

In laymens, whatever growth will end up transpiring from the completion of LIC's transformation, I don't see as being near as grand as some tend to talk about it like it'll be... Most certainly not to the extent that LIC be serviced by the LIRR with (like, say, an Atlantic Terminal or something)....

On 12/17/2020 at 1:50 PM, Mtatransit said:

LIC/Hunterspoint Av is located in a developing area, I think its wise for LIRR to increase service there. But knowing them, they wouldn't do that

6 hours ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

I don’t see L.I.C getting tons of ridership even with all the development going on. Maybe at best a few more trains go there if things develop more over there. As for right now I can see them canceling whatever few trips go there with the upcoming cuts. 

Even with the development, I wouldn't bother with anymore trains to that area than there already are.... Wouldn't be worth it IMO.

Anyway, if they end up discontinuing LIRR service out there before ESA comes to fruition, then usage on the from TSQ (towards GCT) will simply increase.... Almost everybody that gets off at LIRR Hunterspoint descends down to the subway... Much of nobody walks past the subway steps along 49th (towards 21st)....

[Gotham Bus Co.]

On 12/18/2020 at 2:10 AM, dkupf said:

Service could and should be aligned with demand.   

 

MA has done that in the past and gotten cries of, "You have no right to take away our service just because we're not using it. That's illegal discrimination."

[Q101viaSteinway]

11 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Yeah, LIRR LIC & LIRR Hunterspoint are in terrible locales to take advantage of any future growth that LIC will undergo.... The areas in LIC immediately proximate to both those LIRR stations are becoming much more residential than commercial anyway & the areas in LIC that will undergo future commercial growth is more proximate to Queens Plaza.... The amount of folks commuting from areas due east (by way of the LIRR) to ultimately get to Oueens Plaza/QBP for employment purposes & what not, will not be all that high.... Quite frankly, it's a PITA to commute from [LIRR LIC or LIRR Hunterspoint] to QBP - Whether that be by way of either [getting from platform level to street level from off the ], [putting up with the regressively unreliable B62], or [the inadequate frequencies of the Q67]..... It's why there are as many different company provided or bldg. complex provided shuttles in LIC as it is....

In laymens, whatever growth will end up transpiring from the completion of LIC's transformation, I don't see as being near as grand as some tend to talk about it like it'll be... Most certainly not to the extent that LIC be serviced by the LIRR with (like, say, an Atlantic Terminal or something)....

Even with the development, I wouldn't bother with anymore trains to that area than there already are.... Wouldn't be worth it IMO.

Anyway, if they end up discontinuing LIRR service out there before ESA comes to fruition, then usage on the from TSQ (towards GCT) will simply increase.... Almost everybody that gets off at LIRR Hunterspoint descends down to the subway... Much of nobody walks past the subway steps along 49th (towards 21st)....

I know someone who commutes from Long Island to Long Island City and they take LIRR to Jamaica then transfer to  instead of going to Hunterspoint and transferring to  . They also save money by only going to zone 3.

[checkmatechamp13]

16 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Yeah, LIRR LIC & LIRR Hunterspoint are in terrible locales to take advantage of any future growth that LIC will undergo.... The areas in LIC immediately proximate to both those LIRR stations are becoming much more residential than commercial anyway & the areas in LIC that will undergo future commercial growth is more proximate to Queens Plaza.... The amount of folks commuting from areas due east (by way of the LIRR) to ultimately get to Oueens Plaza/QBP for employment purposes & what not, will not be all that high.... Quite frankly, it's a PITA to commute from [LIRR LIC or LIRR Hunterspoint] to QBP - Whether that be by way of either [getting from platform level to street level from off the ], [putting up with the regressively unreliable B62], or [the inadequate frequencies of the Q67]..... It's why there are as many different company provided or bldg. complex provided shuttles in LIC as it is....

In laymens, whatever growth will end up transpiring from the completion of LIC's transformation, I don't see as being near as grand as some tend to talk about it like it'll be... Most certainly not to the extent that LIC be serviced by the LIRR with (like, say, an Atlantic Terminal or something)....

Even with the development, I wouldn't bother with anymore trains to that area than there already are.... Wouldn't be worth it IMO.

Anyway, if they end up discontinuing LIRR service out there before ESA comes to fruition, then usage on the from TSQ (towards GCT) will simply increase.... Almost everybody that gets off at LIRR Hunterspoint descends down to the subway... Much of nobody walks past the subway steps along 49th (towards 21st)....

You know it's funny that getting out of the turnstile area, you can always tell if a Q67 or LIRR train just pulled in. If you see a swarm of people from the right side, that was an LIRR train. If you see a swarm of people from the left, that was a Q67.

Anyway, my office is right on 21st Street and I'd say you used to be able to tell if an LIRR train just pulled in (versus just a train) based on the number of people walking up 21st Street (in other words, while the vast majority of LIRR riders were looking for the subway to Manhattan, I wouldn't say the number who worked in the area was miniscule).

Funny enough, out of those in my office that take the , the majority (myself included) take it from Manhattan as opposed to from Flushing. Nowadays, the riders who used to take the LIRR mostly drive on their days in the office (hence why I said "used to" in the previous sentence).

Edited December 19, 2020 by checkmatechamp13

[B35 via Church]

2 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

You know it's funny that getting out of the turnstile area, you can always tell if a Q67 or LIRR train just pulled in. If you see a swarm of people from the right side, that was an LIRR train. If you see a swarm of people from the left, that was a Q67.

Anyway, my office is right on 21st Street and I'd say you used to be able to tell if an LIRR train just pulled in (versus just a train) based on the number of people walking up 21st Street (in other words, while the vast majority of LIRR riders were looking for the subway to Manhattan, I wouldn't say the number who worked in the area was miniscule).

Funny enough, out of those in my office that take the , the majority (myself included) take it from Manhattan as opposed to from Flushing. Nowadays, the riders who used to take the LIRR mostly drive on their days in the office (hence why I said "used to" in the previous sentence).

Well, the number of city residents that work in LIC, of course (not).... The number of Nassau/Suffolk residents that work out there OTOH, almost certain that number's rather meager, all things considered.... With the , the fact that more people get off at Hunterspoint from off a Flushing bound train (as opposed to from Flushing) isn't surprising to me at all - I mean hell, I used to be one of those people almost... 20 years ago .... I would either wait for the Atrium shuttle bus, or just hoof it out along Skillman & along 47th to get there.... People disembarking at Hunterspoint from off a Manhattan bound was real light.... Way more people would get off at 33rd in the morning (from either direction.... I eventually stopped getting off there; multiple reasons)....

Had the went to Church back then, I would've tried my hand at taking it to Court Sq. (said Atrium shuttle bus also stopped at Court Sq.).... Wasn't putting up with the whole getting off at Smith-9th bit from off the to wait for it... Something about waiting at that station (hell, the station in & of itself) I have never cared for, and it's not the height either....

Be there as it may, if you were to place a gauge on it (in terms of ratio or percentage), how much less LIRR riders are disembarking at Hunterspoint these days, compared to that of yesteryear?

7 hours ago, Q101viaSteinway said:

I know someone who commutes from Long Island to Long Island City and they take LIRR to Jamaica then transfer to  instead of going to Hunterspoint and transferring to  . They also save money by only going to zone 3.

Lol.... Case in point.

[R10 2952]

8 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Be there as it may, if you were to place a gauge on it (in terms of ratio or percentage), how much less LIRR riders are disembarking at Hunterspoint these days, compared to that of yesteryear?

Not counting this year, I would say ridership to/from Hunterspoint and LIC on the railroad has dropped about 30% over the last 10 years, which roughly coincides with when they discontinued the peak-direction expresses that went nonstop between Jamaica and LIC on Lower Montauk.

If we're talking the last 30 years, I'd say the decline has been about 45%, but that can be chalked up to the obvious changes in the neighborhood.  There was a sizeable demographic of blue-collar folks back in the day who would ride in from Nassau County to western Queens to get to the manufacturing jobs; came across some old video on Youtube of the area, taken in '88-'89, and to my surprise, LIC terminal was actually somewhat busy, at least in rush hour anyway.

Edited December 20, 2020 by R10 2952

[checkmatechamp13]

 

13 hours ago, R10 2952 said:

Not counting this year, I would say ridership to/from Hunterspoint and LIC on the railroad has dropped about 30% over the last 10 years, which roughly coincides with when they discontinued the peak-direction expresses that went nonstop between Jamaica and LIC on Lower Montauk.

If we're talking the last 30 years, I'd say the decline has been about 45%, but that can be chalked up to the obvious changes in the neighborhood.  There was a sizeable demographic of blue-collar folks back in the day who would ride in from Nassau County to western Queens to get to the manufacturing jobs; came across some old video on Youtube of the area, taken in '88-'89, and to my surprise, LIC terminal was actually somewhat busy, at least in rush hour anyway.

Keep in mind that blue collar doesn't necessarily mean low-paying (in other words, blue collar workers aren't inherently more likely to take transit based on the work they do). In any case, with the (pre-COVID) general lack of parking in the neighborhood and the traffic on the LIE, that's an incentive against driving. Case in point, pre-COVID, most of the people in my office who live on Long Island took the LIRR (the exception being some higher-level managers who had their own parking spot). But nowadays, since most people are coming one day per week (or some other combination like one week per month), a good chunk of them drive (in part due to the fact that pretty much all employees can use the parking lot)

To LIC specifically I could definitely see a decline since the surrounding area has become residential. To Hunterspoint Avenue, not so much (especially since, as mentioned, the majority transfer to the Manhattan-bound ).

In any case, to answer the question posed by @B35 via Church specifically relating to COVID-related declines, I'm probably not the best person to ask since I've shifted my hours to start at 10:30am (after rush hour has ended) but I'd say ridership is still down a good 80% or more in the past year at Hunterspoint Avenue. I believe from March-June all service was completely eliminated to HPA & LIC.

[B35 via Church]

1 hour ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

Keep in mind that blue collar doesn't necessarily mean low-paying (in other words, blue collar workers aren't inherently more likely to take transit based on the work they do).

That's an assumption I've grown to detest... Another one is the whole, introverts are just shy, or somehow lacking, as if the bar of every human in existence is to be extroverted.... I love proving that last one dead wrong

Just because you get all suited & booted for work does not mean you're balling out of control.... Nor does being a socially interdependent hive-minded motormouth mean that you're this fully-developed person.... People have to realize that people are dynamic, no matter which sides of any spectrum you yourself may fall under.

 

[bobtehpanda]

I would imagine that most HPA ridership will disappear once ESA (eventually) opens.

In the list of "things that are never going to happen today", the LIRR Today at one point dug up plans to turn HPA into a real, full-fledged terminal (something Atlantic sized), and knowing how much ESA costs now one can't help but think if that would've been more prudent.

[checkmatechamp13]

@B35 via Church And another example, at my job we have a whole bunch of engineers with similar qualifications (heck, a lot of my coworkers are former classmates), performing a wide range of work (whether it's different types of inspections in the field, or breaking concrete cylinders in a lab, or designing projects in the office). And everyone has their own reasons for picking their own division (it could be related to the work itself that they prefer, it could be commute-related, it could be promotion-related, etc).

[JAzumah]

18 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

or breaking concrete cylinders in a lab

I enjoyed that in college. It was like baking cakes...but for roads and bridges.

[dkupf]

On 12/19/2020 at 7:03 AM, Gotham Bus Co. said:

 

MA has done that in the past and gotten cries of, "You have no right to take away our service just because we're not using it. That's illegal discrimination."

The MTA always uses their Bus Service Guidelines Manual as the shield.  I was able to obtain the manual from the MTA website about five years ago via a now-broken link.  I have distributed them to the public at public hearings (not happening due to COVID-19), because we deserve to be armed with the facts.  I then let the public make their own conclusions.

[checkmatechamp13]

5 hours ago, dkupf said:

The MTA always uses their Bus Service Guidelines Manual as the shield.  I was able to obtain the manual from the MTA website about five years ago via a now-broken link.  I have distributed them to the public at public hearings (not happening due to COVID-19), because we deserve to be armed with the facts.  I then let the public make their own conclusions.

Again...guidelines...that doesn't mean that they have to be followed in every single case...

[dkupf]

True.  That's why the MTA avoids calling them "standards".

All of us know that the MTA will use the Guidelines in order to justify their actions.

I have ideas that would make them more equitable, i.e. to proactively compete with the ridesharing services and the automobile.

But that's, of course, for a different thread.

[B35 via Church]

On 12/21/2020 at 9:48 PM, checkmatechamp13 said:

Again...guidelines...that doesn't mean that they have to be followed in every single case...

Both of you aren't wrong here.... The thing is, it's like pulling teeth to get them to rise above the(ir) standard...

[Mtatransit]

On 12/19/2020 at 7:17 AM, Q101viaSteinway said:

I know someone who commutes from Long Island to Long Island City and they take LIRR to Jamaica then transfer to  instead of going to Hunterspoint and transferring to  . They also save money by only going to zone 3.

The busiest I see HPA was during the "summer of hell" where HPA and AT was priced as zone 3. Never seen so much people use that station before that.

On 12/20/2020 at 12:32 AM, R10 2952 said:

Not counting this year, I would say ridership to/from Hunterspoint and LIC on the railroad has dropped about 30% over the last 10 years, which roughly coincides with when they discontinued the peak-direction expresses that went nonstop between Jamaica and LIC on Lower Montauk.

If we're talking the last 30 years, I'd say the decline has been about 45%, but that can be chalked up to the obvious changes in the neighborhood.  There was a sizeable demographic of blue-collar folks back in the day who would ride in from Nassau County to western Queens to get to the manufacturing jobs; came across some old video on Youtube of the area, taken in '88-'89, and to my surprise, LIC terminal was actually somewhat busy, at least in rush hour anyway.

Service to HPA and Jamaica was never that great. Even before service to those lower montauk station were eliminated, there wasn't more than two trains in each directions. Peak Lower Montauk trains were eliminated after the 2010 service reductions I believe.

On 12/21/2020 at 4:15 PM, dkupf said:

The MTA always uses their Bus Service Guidelines Manual as the shield.  I was able to obtain the manual from the MTA website about five years ago via a now-broken link.  I have distributed them to the public at public hearings (not happening due to COVID-19), because we deserve to be armed with the facts.  I then let the public make their own conclusions.

Their guidelines are used to cut service, that all there is to it.

[dkupf]

On 12/28/2020 at 2:13 PM, Mtatransit said:

...Their guidelines are used to cut service, that all there is to it.

There have been times when the Guidelines Manual was used in order to increase service, but these are few and far between.

The most recent examples were for the Bx16 Weekday, Saturday and Sunday services.

But, I do think that they are used MOSTLY to cut service.

As I had stated above, I have ideas that would make the Guidelines more equitable, i.e. to proactively compete with rideshare services and the automobile.   But that's wishful thinking, and for a different thread.

[JAzumah]

2 hours ago, dkupf said:

There have been times when the Guidelines Manual was used in order to increase service, but these are few and far between.

The most recent examples were for the Bx16 Weekday, Saturday and Sunday services.

But, I do think that they are used MOSTLY to cut service.

As I had stated above, I have ideas that would make the Guidelines more equitable, i.e. to proactively compete with rideshare services and the automobile.   But that's wishful thinking, and for a different thread.

Go ahead and start that discussion in a new thread. I would be interested in seeing that.

[checkmatechamp13]

On 12/21/2020 at 4:15 PM, dkupf said:

The MTA always uses their Bus Service Guidelines Manual as the shield.  I was able to obtain the manual from the MTA website about five years ago via a now-broken link.  I have distributed them to the public at public hearings (not happening due to COVID-19), because we deserve to be armed with the facts.  I then let the public make their own conclusions.

Not sure what the broken link is, but it is easily available with a quick Google search: http://web.mta.info/mta/news/notices/pdf/NYCT-Service-Guidelines_Public.pdf

On 12/22/2020 at 1:07 AM, dkupf said:

True.  That's why the MTA avoids calling them "standards".

All of us know that the MTA will use the Guidelines in order to justify their actions.

I have ideas that would make them more equitable, i.e. to proactively compete with the ridesharing services and the automobile.

But that's, of course, for a different thread.

The thing is that you have to reasonably apply the guidelines. For example, the Bx6 runs every 63 minutes because that's the headway that the cycle time can support (without throwing reliability out the window and having the driver hustle to maintain a 60 minute headway). They say routes should generally be spaced every 3/8 - 1/2 mile throughout the city, but some areas don't have a street grid (and some areas don't want bus service period. Would you run bus service through Todt Hill just to attempt to meet that standard?)

And then there's cases where the guidelines contradict each other. They say the minimum riders per express bus at the peak load point, peak direction is 60 during off-peak hours (Page 10), but yet if they are running hourly service, they want the maximum number of riders per express bus to be 20 riders (Page 15). 

And then of course, with the redesigns, they are changing those standards (for example, the proposed green local routes in Queens have an average stop spacing of 1300 feet...whereas the current standard for local bus service is 750 feet. Do you believe that they should blindly keep the stops as-is just to conform to the old guidelines? (Which are what they "desire" so by definition if they are making a whole redesign around wider stop spacing, then they "desire" something else). They've mentioned numerous times throughout their studies that 750 feet is too low and most peer transit systems have a wider spacing (so at some point, that guideline is going to change).

[Via Garibaldi 8]

On 12/20/2020 at 2:16 PM, checkmatechamp13 said:

 

Keep in mind that blue collar doesn't necessarily mean low-paying (in other words, blue collar workers aren't inherently more likely to take transit based on the work they do). In any case, with the (pre-COVID) general lack of parking in the neighborhood and the traffic on the LIE, that's an incentive against driving. Case in point, pre-COVID, most of the people in my office who live on Long Island took the LIRR (the exception being some higher-level managers who had their own parking spot). But nowadays, since most people are coming one day per week (or some other combination like one week per month), a good chunk of them drive (in part due to the fact that pretty much all employees can use the parking lot)

To LIC specifically I could definitely see a decline since the surrounding area has become residential. To Hunterspoint Avenue, not so much (especially since, as mentioned, the majority transfer to the Manhattan-bound ).

In any case, to answer the question posed by @B35 via Church specifically relating to COVID-related declines, I'm probably not the best person to ask since I've shifted my hours to start at 10:30am (after rush hour has ended) but I'd say ridership is still down a good 80% or more in the past year at Hunterspoint Avenue. I believe from March-June all service was completely eliminated to HPA & LIC.

 

On 12/20/2020 at 3:38 PM, B35 via Church said:

That's an assumption I've grown to detest... Another one is the whole, introverts are just shy, or somehow lacking, as if the bar of every human in existence is to be extroverted.... I love proving that last one dead wrong

Just because you get all suited & booted for work does not mean you're balling out of control.... Nor does being a socially interdependent hive-minded motormouth mean that you're this fully-developed person.... People have to realize that people are dynamic, no matter which sides of any spectrum you yourself may fall under.

 

Historically speaking, blue collar workers weren't as educated as white collar workers, so they usually were paid less. Blue collar workers generally still earn less though, but aren't necessarily less educated.

[QM1to6Ave]

5 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

 

Historically speaking, blue collar workers weren't as educated as white collar workers, so they usually were paid less. Blue collar workers generally still earn less though, but aren't necessarily less educated.

All those blue collar LIRR workers committing overtime fraud and earning half a million bucks are the epitome of the  blue collar American dream LOL

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 minute ago, QM1to6Ave said:

All those blue collar LIRR workers committing overtime fraud and earning half a million bucks are the epitome of the  blue collar American dream LOL

Us white collar folks, we just get a bonus or whatever based on performance, etc. No OT pay. Always resented the idea that white collar folks are lazy. We're the managers, the creative folks, the innovators... 

[B35 via Church]

1 hour ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Historically speaking, blue collar workers weren't as educated as white collar workers, so they usually were paid less. Blue collar workers generally still earn less though, but aren't necessarily less educated.

Yeah, the gap has been bridged.....

1 hour ago, QM1to6Ave said:

All those blue collar LIRR workers committing overtime fraud and earning half a million bucks are the epitome of the  blue collar American dream LOL

The good thing about the American Dream is that godforsaken mall isn't in New York  it isn't collar-color discriminative....

[bobtehpanda]

5 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Historically speaking, blue collar workers weren't as educated as white collar workers, so they usually were paid less. Blue collar workers generally still earn less though, but aren't necessarily less educated.

Depends on the sector. But generally speaking, higher paid blue-collar work is also more physically taxing; you earn more, but your working life will probably be shorter.

5 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Us white collar folks, we just get a bonus or whatever based on performance, etc. No OT pay. Always resented the idea that white collar folks are lazy. We're the managers, the creative folks, the innovators... 

Bonuses seem to be an East Coast thing, especially in finance world. Out West they like to pay partially in equity. And I've heard of crazy (read: very stupid) compensation schemes, including someone who basically tried to pitch a job to me on commission, but in fancier wording (you have no salary but you are guaranteed a percentage of revenue stream...)