Why didn't the MTA ever create and "MTA Metro North bus" system?

[Don Brown]

As we all know, until a few years ago, we used to have MTA Long Island bus that served much of long island (mostly Nassau and Queens) and was replaced by NICE bus after a major falling out of funding between then republican county executive Ed Mangano and then MTA chairman Jay Walder. Long Island bus's main objective (and now carried over to NICE) was to supplement the Long Island Railroad and provide transfers to other parts of the region, not served by the trains. Why is it then, that the MTA never done the same with the Metro North Railroad? Particularly in the upstate NY side of things? I guess the closest thing we have to that would be the Bee Lines bus system, but won't it make more since under the MTA umbrella? 

[RailBus63]

I believe the simple answer is that Westchester County was willing to do the work themselves to consolidate the private carriers under a public brand (Bee Line System), whereas Nassau County went to the MTA for help, which resulted in the creation of the Metropolitan Suburban Bus Authority.  It would be interesting to know if the MTA did go to Westchester to see if they were interested in folding the Bee Line operations into the MSBA.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

6 hours ago, Don Brown said:

As we all know, until a few years ago, we used to have MTA Long Island bus that served much of long island (mostly Nassau and Queens) and was replaced by NICE bus after a major falling out of funding between then republican county executive Ed Mangano and then MTA chairman Jay Walder. Long Island bus's main objective (and now carried over to NICE) was to supplement the Long Island Railroad and provide transfers to other parts of the region, not served by the trains. Why is it then, that the MTA never done the same with the Metro North Railroad? Particularly in the upstate NY side of things? I guess the closest thing we have to that would be the Bee Lines bus system, but won't it make more since under the MTA umbrella? 

No, Long Island's main objective was to SAVE money and cut back on operating expenses. The "falling out" you mentioned was about money, period. Ed Mangano thought the service could be run cheaper, and did not want Long Island held hostage to the  's demands for more monies to run the service. What exactly is wrong that such a thing is needed in Westchester? Bee Line already has buses that serve certain Metro-North stations, and it seems to work fine.  In areas where there is ample parking, there are shuttle buses that meet the trains, such as in Riverdale. Both of my stations in Riverdale have limited parking so, the shuttle buses were created years ago to address that issue and also boost ridership, which has been successful. Most stations in Westchester have ample parking.

[checkmatechamp13]

1 hour ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

No, Long Island's main objective was to SAVE money and cut back on operating expenses. The "falling out" you mentioned was about money, period. Ed Mangano thought the service could be run cheaper, and did not want Long Island held hostage to the  's demands for more monies to run the service. What exactly is wrong that such a thing is needed in Westchester? Bee Line already has buses that serve certain Metro-North stations, and it seems to work fine.  In areas where there is ample parking, there are shuttle buses that meet the trains, such as in Riverdale. Both of my stations in Riverdale have limited parking so, the shuttle buses were created years ago to address that issue and also boost ridership, which has been successful. Most stations in Westchester have ample parking.

He didn't say Long Island (as in the officials in charge of the county itself), he said Long Island Bus.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

4 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

He didn't say Long Island (as in the officials in charge of the county itself), he said Long Island Bus.

And who was overseeing the bus system? Ed Mangano. The direction that the operations side takes is dictated by who is running the show as the County Executive. 

Edited January 24, 2021 by Via Garibaldi 8

[trainfan22]

Isn't the Port Jervis line pretty rural once you go past Suffern? Most rural areas in the U.S doesn't have local bus service.

 

As for Putnam county, I guess there isn't any demand for a bus system there. Probably not densely populated enough to justify having one.

[checkmatechamp13]

52 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

And who was overseeing the bus system? Ed Mangano. The direction that the operations side takes is dictated by who is running the show as the County Executive. 

Ed Mangano wasn't County Executive when LIB was founded in 1973.

47 minutes ago, trainfan22 said:

Isn't the Port Jervis line pretty rural once you go past Suffern? Most rural areas in the U.S doesn't have local bus service.

As for Putnam county, I guess there isn't any demand for a bus system there. Probably not densely populated enough to justify having one.

All of the counties in the MTA service area have some sort of bus service (It doesn't necessarily serve every train station, but it does run in the county). He was asking why doesn't the MTA operate these bus routes.

http://www.transitorange.info/bus-services/

http://rocklandgov.com/departments/public-transportation/transport-of-rockland/

https://www.putnamcountyny.com/transportation/

https://www.dutchessny.gov/Departments/Public-Transit/Routes-Schedules.htm

[Via Garibaldi 8]

4 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

Ed Mangano wasn't County Executive when LIB was founded in 1973.

I'm not talking about 1973. He specifically talks about what was carried over under NICE. That happened under Mangano.

Quote

We used to have MTA Long Island bus that served much of long island (mostly Nassau and Queens) and was replaced by NICE bus after a major falling out of funding between then republican county executive Ed Mangano and then MTA chairman Jay Walder. Long Island bus's main objective (and now carried over to NICE) was to supplement the Long Island Railroad and provide transfers to other parts of the region, not served by the trains.

 

Edited January 24, 2021 by Via Garibaldi 8

[checkmatechamp13]

Just now, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I'm not talking about 1973. He specifically talks about NICE. That happened under Mangano.

He said 

Quote

 Long Island bus's main objective (and now carried over to NICE)

The purpose of a public transit agency is to operate public transit, isn't it?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

8 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

He said 

The purpose of a public transit agency is to operate public transit, isn't it?

Supposedly yes, but that isn't always carried out.  Long Island and Westchester are facing budget crunches, and have for years now, so I would say they have both been trying to cut back where possible, at least if we look at how Astorino in Westchester and Mangano on Long Island did things.  I doubt much has changed under new County Executives, unless I'm missing something. 

My experiences on Long Island and Westchester have been that outside of the railroads, transportation is scorned to some degree.  People drive, and that's how I get around Westchester and on Long Island myself. I have never used Bee Line or NICE.  Yes, you have those that take public transportation, but in terms of Bee Line and NICE, that seems to be for those people who have absolutely no other options. Quite frankly, I would argue to some extent that some areas prefer not to have any bus service to limit those who come to the area, similar to the thought of bringing the subway to certain parts of NYC back in the day.

Edited January 24, 2021 by Via Garibaldi 8

[B35 via Church]

9 hours ago, Don Brown said:

As we all know, until a few years ago, we used to have MTA Long Island bus that served much of long island (mostly Nassau and Queens) and was replaced by NICE bus after a major falling out of funding between then republican county executive Ed Mangano and then MTA chairman Jay Walder. Long Island bus's main objective (and now carried over to NICE) was to supplement the Long Island Railroad and provide transfers to other parts of the region, not served by the trains. Why is it then, that the MTA never done the same with the Metro North Railroad? Particularly in the upstate NY side of things? I guess the closest thing we have to that would be the Bee Lines bus system, but won't it make more since under the MTA umbrella? 

LIB wasn't meant to supplement the LIRR, it was meant to complement it.....

Anyway, this sounds like a passive way of inquiring as to why the MTA never considered taking over Bee-Line.....

[GojiMet86]

7 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

LIB wasn't meant to supplement the LIRR, it was meant to complement it.....

Anyway, this sounds like a passive way of inquiring as to why the MTA never considered taking over Bee-Line.....

Well, it is Chargerdodge9 aka NorthBrooklyn aka R62CNG aka Ricky Coolan aka 2004OrionVIICNG aka good6195 aka depotofrelax aka Kevin Madson aka Don Brown...

[Mtatransit]

6 hours ago, RailBus63 said:

I believe the simple answer is that Westchester County was willing to do the work themselves to consolidate the private carriers under a public brand (Bee Line System), whereas Nassau County went to the MTA for help, which resulted in the creation of the Metropolitan Suburban Bus Authority.  It would be interesting to know if the MTA did go to Westchester to see if they were interested in folding the Bee Line operations into the MSBA.

MSBA also took over the S40 once upon a time, until they couldn't agree with the cost. I wonder if that agreement had worked out, would suffolk go with MSBA for the whole system as Nassau did. I mean they did have a big operation out there back then with the Rail n bus for the East end.

3 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

No, Long Island's main objective was to SAVE money and cut back on operating expenses. The "falling out" you mentioned was about money, period. Ed Mangano thought the service could be run cheaper, and did not want Long Island held hostage to the  's demands for more monies to run the service.

Ed Mangano's main purpose was to save money, not to make the system better. In fact, if he kept the 9 million he given the  . Alot of the service reductions that have taken place in2016/2017 would have  not occured had Nassau maintained its contribution level.

MTA wanted 36 million or something like that

2 hours ago, trainfan22 said:

Isn't the Port Jervis line pretty rural once you go past Suffern? Most rural areas in the U.S doesn't have local bus service.

 

As for Putnam county, I guess there isn't any demand for a bus system there. Probably not densely populated enough to justify having one.

Even Orange County has a local bus service, serving towns that MNR abandoned in 1983

54 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

My experiences on Long Island and Westchester have been that outside of the railroads, transportation is scorned to some degree.  People drive, and that's how I get around Westchester and on Long Island myself. I have never used Bee Line or NICE.  Yes, you have those that take public transportation, but in terms of Bee Line and NICE, that seems to be for those people who have absolutely no other options. Quite frankly, I would argue to some extent that some areas prefer not to have any bus service to limit those who come to the area, similar to the thought of bringing the subway to certain parts of NYC back in the day.

Yes NICE Bus and Bee Line primarily services people who have no other choice. That and people who can not afford railroad fares. All the other people drive or take an taxi. 

What I noticed however is that bee Line ridership seems alittle more well off than NICE buses ridership. Bee Line drivers also seems less lenient on people who can't pay the fares

15 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

LIB wasn't meant to supplement the LIRR, it was meant to complement it.....

Anyway, this sounds like a passive way of inquiring as to why the MTA never considered taking over Bee-Line.....

They probably were ment to complement it in the beginning, but that is definitely not what it is used for today

Liberty Lines does such a good job maintaing their buses, that I can not really support MTA taking over. I just wish they added some service during nights and Sunday

[Via Garibaldi 8]

16 minutes ago, Mtatransit said:

MSBA also took over the S40 once upon a time, until they couldn't agree with the cost. I wonder if that agreement had worked out, would suffolk go with MSBA for the whole system as Nassau did. I mean they did have a big operation out there back then with the Rail n bus for the East end.

Ed Mangano's main purpose was to save money, not to make the system better. In fact, if he kept the 9 million he given the  . Alot of the service reductions that have taken place in2016/2017 would have  not occured had Nassau maintained its contribution level.

MTA wanted 36 million or something like that

Even Orange County has a local bus service, serving towns that MNR abandoned in 1983

Yes NICE Bus and Bee Line primarily services people who have no other choice. That and people who can not afford railroad fares. All the other people drive or take an taxi. 

What I noticed however is that bee Line ridership seems alittle more well off than NICE buses ridership. Bee Line drivers also seems less lenient on people who can't pay the fares

Yeah, whenever I've been on Long Island for networking dinners or to meet clients, I get the LIRR, and am usually picked up, get a taxi or get around in a car.  I don't know anything about NICE, but I didn't get a "nice" impression of it. I don't want to be waiting around for some bus that may or may not come. lol

[B35 via Church]

26 minutes ago, Mtatransit said:

They probably were ment to complement it in the beginning, but that is definitely not what it is used for today

Liberty Lines does such a good job maintaing their buses, that I can not really support MTA taking over. I just wish they added some service during nights and Sunday

Yeah, as time progresses, NICE is regressing into being that much more of an afterthought for LIRR riders in general....

The one thing NICE does have up on Bee-Line is later service on more of its routes.... Then again, I find that there's more demand for later service from more people to/from Nassau County, compared to Westchester county anyway....

[Trainmaster5]

8 hours ago, GojiMet86 said:

Well, it is Chargerdodge9 aka NorthBrooklyn aka R62CNG aka Ricky Coolan aka 2004OrionVIICNG aka good6195 aka depotofrelax aka Kevin Madson aka Don Brown...

Wow, someone has a great memory . Unfortunately many of us would rather forget that time 😃. I bet that you do too. 

[Gotham Bus Co.]

On 1/24/2021 at 9:28 AM, Don Brown said:

As we all know, until a few years ago, we used to have MTA Long Island bus that served much of long island (mostly Nassau and Queens) and was replaced by NICE bus after a major falling out of funding between then republican county executive Ed Mangano and then MTA chairman Jay Walder.

 

The fallout was caused by MTA's request to actually be paid. The County isn't actually "saving" money because now it's getting ONLY the service it's willing to pay for. 

[Lex]

Truth be told, I'd like New York's railroads, buses, and subway in the metropolitan area (phrasing is deliberate) under one roof.

Given the entire situation with the MTA and the politicians on all levels, that'll happen in 3276, at the earliest.

[bobtehpanda]

On 2/11/2021 at 9:20 AM, Lex said:

Truth be told, I'd like New York's railroads, buses, and subway in the metropolitan area (phrasing is deliberate) under one roof.

Given the entire situation with the MTA and the politicians on all levels, that'll happen in 3276, at the earliest.

I don't think this would meaningfully amount to much. The best case scenario, LIB+LIRR, was not very well integrated even before the NICE split.

Where I live now, there is a whole gamut of authorities, yet they all seem to have checked their egos at the door and you can get a regional pass that works on all of them. Heck, some of the suburban agencies will start truncating their downtown expresses once the regional light rail expansions open.

But with MTA the top of the organization is spineless and does not break down barriers meaningfully. To be quite honest, the structure of the MTA may be hurting more than it is helping.

[B35 via Church]

12 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

But with MTA the top of the organization is spineless and does not break down barriers meaningfully. To be quite honest, the structure of the MTA may be hurting more than it is helping.

It is most certainly detrimental... No hesitancy necessary to conclude it.