Could subway to LGA still be possible under this new FAA policy?

[T to Dyre Avenue]

The FAA seems to have changed their minds about using PFC funding for airport-rail connections that don’t just serve the airport. Maybe it’s not too late for an  /  extension to LGA. The Twitterverse seems to think so.

https://mobile.twitter.com/2235astoria/status/1361792892117921798

[T to Dyre Avenue]

2 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

The FAA seems to have changed their minds about using PFC funding for airport-rail connections that don’t just serve the airport. Here’s the FAA’s new memo from January 12, 2021 -

https://www.faa.gov/airports/pfc/pfc_updates/media/pfc_75_21_rail_access_policy.pdf?fbclid=IwAR0Qy4qgMRAngX8In8mcWJasu3P8hFhImcbT6oBoLXDFajPg9aWhPQCCMjc

Maybe it’s not too late for an  /  extension to LGA. The Twitterverse seems to think so.

https://mobile.twitter.com/2235astoria/status/1361792892117921798

Sorry, pressed quote instead of edit. 

Edited February 16, 2021 by T to Dyre Avenue

[NewFlyer 230]

My only question with an extension of the Astoria line to LGA is how do they go about doing it? Houses and such will have to be torn down to allow the elevated line to go to LGA past Ditmars Blvd unless the extension happens from the Astoria Blvd station where the line could run above the Grand Central Parkway? However that whole station would potentially have to be redone to allow tracks to spur off onto the Grand Central. 

[Lex]

2 hours ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

My only question with an extension of the Astoria line to LGA is how do they go about doing it? Houses and such will have to be torn down to allow the elevated line to go to LGA past Ditmars Blvd unless the extension happens from the Astoria Blvd station where the line could run above the Grand Central Parkway? However that whole station would potentially have to be redone to allow tracks to spur off onto the Grand Central. 

Well, we could start by stacking it over the west side of 31st Street, thereby reducing the impact on houses and allowing for a more favorable bend for trains heading further into Queens. From there, it'll go up to 20th Avenue, across to 76th Street, down to the Grand Central Parkway, reclaim some of the existing median and innermost lanes, then rise back up to serve the main terminals once out of one runway's line of fire. Hell, it could even go beyond that and follow Northern Boulevard to, say, Crocheron Avenue.

Shifting gears, can we please look into retrofitting the existing Jamaica branch of AirTrain JFK, along with extending it to Flushing? (It could then be extended to the Bronx.)

[B35 via Church]

I'll take just about anything over Cuomo's grand scheme to connect Willets Point to LGA.

[Lawrence St]

How about we just build an actual busway and finish this already...

The subway won't happen because of NIMBY's crying over every little dam thing to improve public transit in NYC. 

Look at RBB, that line isn't even ON anyone's property and yet its still taken almost 40 years to restore service on that line....

[NewFlyer 230]

Personally I don’t see anything wrong with the current forms of transportation that we have to serve LaGuardia Airport. While a train would be nice, it would overall be very expensive and I think the money could be used elsewhere. The MTA in my opinion has done a good job improving traveling to and from LGA. The Q70’s sole purpose is to bring people from Woodside/Jackson Heights to the airport and it has off board payment and they recently just put artics on the line. The M60 while suffering from traffic on 125th street also has off board payment and artics. You also have the underutilized Q48 and the Q72 that also go to airport if needed. The only other improvement I can see happening is maybe eliminating all the rest of the M60’s stops along Astoria Blvd and have buses run nonstop from the Astoria Blvd station to the airport. The MTA needs to stop playing around and increase Q19 service already and call it a day. 

[Lawrence St]

1 hour ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

Personally I don’t see anything wrong with the current forms of transportation that we have to serve LaGuardia Airport. While a train would be nice, it would overall be very expensive and I think the money could be used elsewhere. The MTA in my opinion has done a good job improving traveling to and from LGA. The Q70’s sole purpose is to bring people from Woodside/Jackson Heights to the airport and it has off board payment and they recently just put artics on the line. The M60 while suffering from traffic on 125th street also has off board payment and artics. You also have the underutilized Q48 and the Q72 that also go to airport if needed. The only other improvement I can see happening is maybe eliminating all the rest of the M60’s stops along Astoria Blvd and have buses run nonstop from the Astoria Blvd station to the airport. The MTA needs to stop playing around and increase Q19 service already and call it a day. 

Yeah no, removing the M60 stops along Astoria Blvd is a horrible idea.

What they should do is have two separate M60 services, one M60 makes the same stops and ends at Astoria Blvd/ 77th St, and the 2nd M60 (let's call it M60x) runs nonstop between 1st Av and Terminal B.

But a busway would be the *best* option for the Q70. Its cheap, and will actually deliver a true BRT experience to NY for the first time. (14th St doesn't count as it wasnt built as a BRT).

Look at LAMetro's BRT system compared to ours, its embarrassing. They have the longest busway with the highest ridership and we are here with people filing lawsuits against the city for banning traffic along 14th St.

[NewFlyer 230]

1 hour ago, Lawrence St said:

Yeah no, removing the M60 stops along Astoria Blvd is a horrible idea.

What they should do is have two separate M60 services, one M60 makes the same stops and ends at Astoria Blvd/ 77th St, and the 2nd M60 (let's call it M60x) runs nonstop between 1st Av and Terminal B.

But a busway would be the *best* option for the Q70. Its cheap, and will actually deliver a true BRT experience to NY for the first time. (14th St doesn't count as it wasnt built as a BRT).

Look at LAMetro's BRT system compared to ours, its embarrassing. They have the longest busway with the highest ridership and we are here with people filing lawsuits against the city for banning traffic along 14th St.

I was going to suggest having more frequent Q19 service with some buses terminating at 2nd Street in Astoria while having other Q19’s terminate at Lexington Ave/125th street to allow the M60 to run nonstop. I have used the M60 along Astoria Blvd and I’ve notice that a lot of people tend to use it within Queens because of the Q19’s poor frequency. 

[Deucey]

2 hours ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

Personally I don’t see anything wrong with the current forms of transportation that we have to serve LaGuardia Airport. While a train would be nice, it would overall be very expensive and I think the money could be used elsewhere. The MTA in my opinion has done a good job improving traveling to and from LGA. The Q70’s sole purpose is to bring people from Woodside/Jackson Heights to the airport and it has off board payment and they recently just put artics on the line. The M60 while suffering from traffic on 125th street also has off board payment and artics. You also have the underutilized Q48 and the Q72 that also go to airport if needed. The only other improvement I can see happening is maybe eliminating all the rest of the M60’s stops along Astoria Blvd and have buses run nonstop from the Astoria Blvd station to the airport. The MTA needs to stop playing around and increase Q19 service already and call it a day. 

You ever been stuck on M60 or Q70 in traffic getting to or from LGA?

I have to leave earlier, and get home later - including SI Ferry time - dealing with LGA than I do with JFK - including international flying. Even AirTrain LGA is an improvement.

1 hour ago, Lawrence St said:

Look at LAMetro's BRT system compared to ours, its embarrassing. They have the longest busway with the highest ridership and we are here with people filing lawsuits against the city for banning traffic along 14th St.

If you mean the Orange Line, they’re rebuilding that to have overpasses and to convert to LRT by 2050.

If you mean the Harbor Transitway, it took them ~10 years to build that - I was 9 or 10 when that started, 20 when it finished, and another 8 years until Metro created the Silver Line to run on it and get real ridership vs using the old 400/500 Express Buses with a much higher fare that were barely ridden. And it actually started out as a carpool lane/express toll road idea.

The difference between LA’s busways and NYC is that LA’s busways are/were built to benefit the wealthy by “modifying” the low and middle class areas they had to drive through to get to DTLA or the Red Line, while NYC busways are “modifying” wealthy areas to benefit everyone.

[B35 via Church]

6 hours ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

Personally I don’t see anything wrong with the current forms of transportation that we have to serve LaGuardia Airport. While a train would be nice, it would overall be very expensive and I think the money could be used elsewhere. The MTA in my opinion has done a good job improving traveling to and from LGA. The Q70’s sole purpose is to bring people from Woodside/Jackson Heights to the airport and it has off board payment and they recently just put artics on the line. The M60 while suffering from traffic on 125th street also has off board payment and artics. You also have the underutilized Q48 and the Q72 that also go to airport if needed. The only other improvement I can see happening is maybe eliminating all the rest of the M60’s stops along Astoria Blvd and have buses run nonstop from the Astoria Blvd station to the airport. The MTA needs to stop playing around and increase Q19 service already and call it a day. 

I don't have a problem w/ the current LGA options either, but some form of rail transportation to/from LGA is warranted (just not from CitiField/Willets Point).....

[bobtehpanda]

This is certainly a step in the positive direction.

However, keep in mind we still have problem number one, which is PANYNJ is the entity allowed to collect PFC and they don't really play nice with others. IIRC when that post 9/11 plan to combine the  with PATH was being shopped around, the MTA was actually okay with it but the PA shot it down.

Also, if PANYNJ is really proposing that five track terminal in that rendering in the replies, no wonder the PATH to Newark Liberty is over a billion a mile for land that is already in public ownership.

[Lex]

5 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

This is certainly a step in the positive direction.

However, keep in mind we still have problem number one, which is PANYNJ is the entity allowed to collect PFC and they don't really play nice with others. IIRC when that post 9/11 plan to combine the  with PATH was being shopped around, the MTA was actually okay with it but the PA shot it down.

Also, if PANYNJ is really proposing that five track terminal in that rendering in the replies, no wonder the PATH to Newark Liberty is over a billion a mile for land that is already in public ownership.

Considering that any plan of the sort would require changing the railroad status of either the old H&M's system or the subway's (and the latter is probably easier than the former), I can't say I'm necessarily against the PA's resistance. Also, any plan along those lines would need to take all existing branches of the former into account.

[bobtehpanda]

3 minutes ago, Lex said:

Considering that any plan of the sort would require changing the railroad status of either the old H&M's system or the subway's (and the latter is probably easier than the former), I can't say I'm necessarily against the PA's resistance. Also, any plan along those lines would need to take all existing branches of the former into account.

That wouldn't be the PA's problem, that would be the MTA's, since the MTA has the less stringent regulatory regime. And they seemed to think they could do it.

No, the PA is legitimately just a PITA to work with, and not necessarily great at any of the jobs it is assigned to do. Hence why the Tappan Zee is located just outside its jurisdictional boundaries. Hence why for some godawful reason it has managed to do absolutely nothing with Stewart and Atlantic City airports. And hence why WTC has never been fully finished.

[Lawrence St]

1 minute ago, bobtehpanda said:

That wouldn't be the PA's problem, that would be the MTA's, since the MTA has the less stringent regulatory regime. And they seemed to think they could do it.

No, the PA is legitimately just a PITA to work with, and not necessarily great at any of the jobs it is assigned to do. Hence why the Tappan Zee is located just outside its jurisdictional boundaries. Hence why for some godawful reason it has managed to do absolutely nothing with Stewart and Atlantic City airports. And hence why WTC has never been fully finished.

Atlantic City has an airport???

[NewFlyer 230]

14 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

Atlantic City has an airport???

It does but you’d have to drive a bit from Atlantic City to get to it. 

Edited February 18, 2021 by NewFlyer 230

[Gotham Bus Co.]

14 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

Look at LAMetro's BRT system compared to ours, its embarrassing. They have the longest busway with the highest ridership and we are here with people filing lawsuits against the city for banning traffic along 14th St.

 

The lawsuits regarding 14th Street are coming from one lawyer, Arthur Schwartz, who represents two sets of clients: NIMBY community groups (who don't want diverted traffic on their streets) and TWU Local 100 (which wants slower traffic on 14th Street so that bus drivers will need more running time and get more pay).

[Jsunflyguy]

My understanding is all of the plausible builds infringe on an obstacle clearance zone for one of the runways. If that is still the case, then no.

[Kamen Rider]

That’s the main issue, really; Runway 4.

anything coming from the west has to ether go around it or under it. Which is why the FAA is onboard with Airtrain LGA, because it avoids the runways all together.

Another factor is how far along the actual airport project is.

At this point, all the designs have been signed off. They include provisions for Airtrain, and nothing else. There’s no spot set aside that would fit an extension of the BMT.

Honestly, we are well and truly past the point of no return. when it comes to rail transit to the airport... it’s going to be Airtrain LaGuardia or nothing.

 

 

 

[Deucey]

1 hour ago, Kamen Rider said:

That’s the main issue, really; Runway 4.

anything coming from the west has to ether go around it or under it. Which is why the FAA is onboard with Airtrain LGA, because it avoids the runways all together.

Another factor is how far along the actual airport project is.

At this point, all the designs have been signed off. They include provisions for Airtrain, and nothing else. There’s no spot set aside that would fit an extension of the BMT.

Honestly, we are well and truly past the point of no return. when it comes to rail transit to the airport... it’s going to be Airtrain LaGuardia or nothing.

 

 

 

If pylons haven’t been placed in the ROW, it could still be cancelled. It’s not like abandoned pre-operational infrastructure doesn’t exist in NYC.

And it’s not like - assuming infrastructure has been placed, that 1) the plans couldn’t be modified, or 2)  couldn’t take over the project as is or have PA keep it and run it like BART does eBART from Willets over to Astoria Blvd or even down to QBP - with or without separate fares.

[Kamen Rider]

“It could still be canceled”

 

hence the “or nothing” part. That was the point.
 

It will not be going to Astoria any time soon... if at all... so my suggestion to you all on that subject is to “Build an Airtrain and get over it”.

[B35 via Church]

12 hours ago, Kamen Rider said:

“It could still be canceled”

 

hence the “or nothing” part. That was the point.
 

It will not be going to Astoria any time soon... if at all... so my suggestion to you all on that subject is to “Build an Airtrain and get over it”.

There would be nothing for me to get over if I were to build an LGA AIRTrain that wouldn't dump people off at Mets-Willets Point .....

As far as the "or nothing" part, Lol.... I'm perfectly fine with nothing, considering the only other option being presented to us by this governor we have...

[Lex]

14 hours ago, Kamen Rider said:

“It could still be canceled”

 

hence the “or nothing” part. That was the point.
 

It will not be going to Astoria any time soon... if at all... so my suggestion to you all on that subject is to “Build an Airtrain and get over it”.

Yeah, let's build something that ends in the middle of f*cking nowhere and requires either two transfers (from the east) or blowing past the airport, only to backtrack with a sky-high fare (from the west). That's a great idea.

For all its faults, the Q48 is a better use of resources.

[Deucey]

4 hours ago, Lex said:

Yeah, let's build something that ends in the middle of f*cking nowhere and requires either two transfers (from the east) or blowing past the airport, only to backtrack with a sky-high fare (from the west). That's a great idea.

For all its faults, the Q48 is a better use of resources.

To transit fans, yes it is.

But to folks with a cheap ticket to Chicago or Atlanta, or connecting to the West Coast, with several bags, they’re going to pay that sky high fare to avoid being stuck in traffic in cabs or on buses and possibly missing the flight - whether coming from the City or LI.

[Lex]

56 minutes ago, Deucey said:

To transit fans, yes it is.

But to folks with a cheap ticket to Chicago or Atlanta, or connecting to the West Coast, with several bags, they’re going to pay that sky high fare to avoid being stuck in traffic in cabs or on buses and possibly missing the flight - whether coming from the City or LI.

To/from Willets Point? The very same Willets Point with nothing of note beyond a few sports facilities?

If the talk about out-of-towners having multiple bags is the justification for building a train to nowhere with ridiculous fares, that's all the more reason to scrap it.