MTA/Academy Pool On The SIM23 & SIM24

[JAzumah]

EDC Meeting Regarding Academy Express 9/30/2020

It is my firm belief that the New York City Economic Development Corporation should begin to provide funding for the support of planning and management of the SIM23 and SIM24 by MTA Bus. The MTA should provide two additional buses for the SIM23 and SIM24 so that these routes do not completely die during the pandemic. At a 30 minute frequency, these routes can survive the pandemic. At the current frequency, these routes will die. The NYCEDC should have paid Academy to operate a base schedule of every 30 minutes so that the service was useable for people that had to travel.

[Future ENY OP]

13 minutes ago, JAzumah said:

EDC Meeting Regarding Academy Express 9/30/2020

It is my firm belief that the New York City Economic Development Corporation should begin to provide funding for the support of planning and management of the SIM23 and SIM24 by MTA Bus. The MTA should provide two additional buses for the SIM23 and SIM24 so that these routes do not completely die during the pandemic. At a 30 minute frequency, these routes can survive the pandemic. At the current frequency, these routes will die. The NYCEDC should have paid Academy to operate a base schedule of every 30 minutes so that the service was useable for people that had to travel.

Here's the problem with your premise... The is NOT the contract holder for this... One suggestion is only the can fully take over those bus lines.

I'm no fan of academy bus, but the equipment that's out on Staten Island is totally disrespectful and horrendous. 

[JAzumah]

In the Staten Island express bus redesign, the MTA redesigned those routes. The only reason why the MTA is not operating those routes is because the city refuses to transfer the subsidy to the MTA. I agree with the MTA that they shouldn't work for free.

Atlantic Express bought new buses for the routes because they were given a long term contract. EDC has been giving Academy 6-12 month extensions, so Academy uses depreciated equipment on the routes. The city could have written a contract that gave Academy a longer term and stipulated a bus age. However, they don't really "want" this contract. The only reason I am suggesting this is because the MTA has enough spare bus capacity to do this at no additional cost.

[SevenEleven]

The MTA doesn't have the buses right now to operate the 23/24, which is why there's the 23 bus option order for the Prevosts.

[checkmatechamp13]

8 hours ago, JAzumah said:

EDC Meeting Regarding Academy Express 9/30/2020

It is my firm belief that the New York City Economic Development Corporation should begin to provide funding for the support of planning and management of the SIM23 and SIM24 by MTA Bus. The MTA should provide two additional buses for the SIM23 and SIM24 so that these routes do not completely die during the pandemic. At a 30 minute frequency, these routes can survive the pandemic. At the current frequency, these routes will die. The NYCEDC should have paid Academy to operate a base schedule of every 30 minutes so that the service was useable for people that had to travel.

The other issue is the frequency on the nearby routes in competition with the SIM23/24. Every 6-10 minutes at the height of the AM rush on the SIM2/22/25/26 is overkill when you have less than 1/3 your normal ridership, but when the difference betweem those and the Academy lines is so great, of course that wil exacerbate the issue.

That's the issue, they're not dynamic enough. In April, they just copy-pasted the Sunday schedule (and made a modified schedule for the S54/55/56/89) when they should've at least included some of the "via FDR" routes, and some of the busier routes like the SIM2 & SIM8, maybe added a couple of SIM24 stops along Drumgoole Road to serve some SIM25/26 riders. Then in June they just went back to the Winter schedule for 2 weeks and implemented the Spring Pick changes in the summer. They could've done a reduced weekday schedule with extra trips added say before 6am and before 4pm (to accommodate the healthcare workers and construction workers who tend to travel earlier). Maybe on the "via FDR" lines, keep it closer to normal service levels. 

I don't think the SIM23/24 are necessarily goners at 1 hour headways, though. In October, Academy added a couple of extra trips so that at the height of rush hour, they run every 30 minutes, and I think as more things open up, they'll start adding more trips back so that the headways naturally end up going to 30 minutes or better.

[JAzumah]

47 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

I don't think the SIM23/24 are necessarily goners at 1 hour headways, though.

They are DONE at 1 hour headways. DONE.
 

2 hours ago, SevenEleven said:

The MTA doesn't have the buses right now to operate the 23/24, which is why there's the 23 bus option order for the Prevosts.

They have the buses and have had them pre-pandemic. NYC did not want to transfer the money. MTA Bus is operating many more buses than it needs. The optimization of the former X1/X10/X17/X22, plus 10 buses out of Regional Bus, would have covered the 20-22 buses that they needed.

[Cait Sith]

2 hours ago, JAzumah said:

They have the buses and have had them pre-pandemic. NYC did not want to transfer the money. MTA Bus is operating many more buses than it needs. The optimization of the former X1/X10/X17/X22, plus 10 buses out of Regional Bus, would have covered the 20-22 buses that they needed.

They actually don't.

They accelerated the retirement of the 2002 MCIs and pushing a bunch of them over to MTA Bus, lowering the amount of buses they had altogether. Charleston, Yukon and Castleton are basically empty during AM and PM rush hour with little to no spare buses for pull out, and Meredith's spare factor isn't anything to gloat about.

Edited February 25, 2021 by Cait Sith

[paulrivera]

There's always the local buses 🤷‍♂️

[Via Garibaldi 8]

52 minutes ago, Cait Sith said:

They actually don't.

They accelerated the retirement of the 2002 MCIs and pushing a bunch of them over to MTA Bus, lowering the amount of buses they had altogether. Charleston, Yukon and Castleton are basically empty during AM and PM rush hour with little to no spare buses for pull out, and Meredith's spare factor isn't anything to gloat about.

Yup, you are correct. Staten Island is still dealing with that problem, which was a huge issue pre-COVID. Sometimes they had enough drivers, but no buses for them.  Ulmer Park is another one with bus shortage issues. Of late it's been better, but I have had a number of passengers complain about their express bus breaking down on the Gowanus, and photos to boot. Maintenance claims a bus is fixed, bus is sent out and has to be pulled again for the same problem. I won't go into particulars, but I saw something that just left me shaking my head some months back with that depot.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

12 hours ago, JAzumah said:

In the Staten Island express bus redesign, the MTA redesigned those routes. The only reason why the MTA is not operating those routes is because the city refuses to transfer the subsidy to the MTA. I agree with the MTA that they shouldn't work for free.

Atlantic Express bought new buses for the routes because they were given a long term contract. EDC has been giving Academy 6-12 month extensions, so Academy uses depreciated equipment on the routes. The city could have written a contract that gave Academy a longer term and stipulated a bus age. However, they don't really "want" this contract. The only reason I am suggesting this is because the MTA has enough spare bus capacity to do this at no additional cost.

What long term contract? I don't know what you're talking about, but the plan and desire is to transfer those two lines to the  . When that will happen is unclear, but that is what several elected officials want on Staten Island, and what I have been privy to, and so for now Academy runs the lines until the change can be made. As others have said, one of the obstacles is a lack of buses. Staten Island on the express end still struggles with this. 

[Lawrence St]

With the way how Academy has proven to be untruthful lately, Im surprised didnt find another service provider to provide the service.

[MysteriousBtrain]

6 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

With the way how Academy has proven to be untruthful lately, Im surprised didnt find another service provider to provide the service.

↓↓↓

13 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

Here's the problem with your premise... The is NOT the contract holder for this... 

 

[Lawrence St]

5 minutes ago, MysteriousBtrain said:

↓↓↓

 

Wait, so EDC is the one who created these routes and not DOT?

Why is EDC even getting involved in things like this? They clearly have no idea how to run a transit system (I'm looking at you, NYC Ferry...).

[Via Garibaldi 8]

2 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

Wait, so EDC is the one who created these routes and not DOT?

Why is EDC even getting involved in things like this? They clearly have no idea how to run a transit system (I'm looking at you, NYC Ferry...).

In part because the DOT has enough on its plate. They don't want to have to oversee bus lines.

[Cait Sith]

My whole thing with the Academy situation is that, had those two routes been based out of another garage, we'd see much, much better performance on the x23 and x24. The ironic thing is that those two routes are operated out of the same garage that just lost a chunk of work in Middlesex County BECAUSE of how bad they run their services and how horrible the equipment is maintained....Perth Amboy Garage. That garage has been notorious for running their buses into the ground and having missed trips/late buses, especially for the routes that operate in New Brunswick/the Amboys/Woodbridge, which is why the contract for the Middlesex county routes was terminated by NJ Transit.

Word is that Academy will be closing down that garage as well.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

3 minutes ago, Cait Sith said:

My whole thing with the Academy situation is that, had those two routes been based out of another garage, we'd see much, much better performance on the x23 and x24. The ironic thing is that those two routes are operated out of the same garage that just lost a chunk of work in Middlesex County BECAUSE of how bad they run their services and how horrible the equipment is maintained....Perth Amboy Garage. That garage has been notorious for running their buses into the ground and having missed trips/late buses, especially for the routes that operate in New Brunswick/the Amboys/Woodbridge, which is why the contract for the Middlesex county routes was terminated by NJ Transit.

Word is that Academy will be closing down that garage as well.

That's one of the main issues with those two lines... Missing trips... They prioritize what they want to run. I don't think they care all that much about losing the contract.

[JAzumah]

5 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

In part because the DOT has enough on its plate. They don't want to have to oversee bus lines.

That's incorrect.

The reason why the NYCEDC was involved was because NYCDOT was not allowed to issue a franchise on Staten Island to a private carrier. No one bothered to sign a new authorizing resolution, so no one can operate bus service within the borders of NYC without prearrangement. NYCEDC bid the contract and asked private carriers to draw up two routes. I prepared two routes, but couldn't get the buses at a price I thought would win. Academy bid a variant of their existing bus system and Atlantic bid the X23 and X24. NYCDOT did oversee the buses through their franchise unit until they offloaded their franchise buses. I know that because I saw Atlantic's info pinned on the wall when I went over there. They only stopped when all of their franchise bus routes were folded into MTA Bus. I can't comment on how vigorously they oversaw them, but that is a different discussion altogether.

The original setup was NYCEDC as the pass-through, NYCDOT management, and a private operator. The MTA drew the SIM23 and SIM24 routes for Academy to transition to, so I am guessing that the MTA has made space for the SIM23 and SIM24 to come over...when they get paid for it.
 

38 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

With the way how Academy has proven to be untruthful lately, Im surprised didnt find another service provider to provide the service.

As Future ENY OP says, the contract holder is NOT the MTA. As a general note, who is going to install MetroCard fareboxes on their buses for a short-term contract at a better price than Academy in this environment? The answer is no one.

 

1 hour ago, paulrivera said:

There's always the local buses

With or without the platforms? You can always steal the seats from scrapped MCIs.



 

[Lawrence St]

But isn't it a rule that any route from a private carrier has to go to MTA Bus and not NYCT?

[Cait Sith]

7 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

But isn't it a rule that any route from a private carrier has to go to MTA Bus and not NYCT?

No.

Only the ones that were operated by the DOT were transferred over to MTA Bus.

[JAzumah]

2 hours ago, Cait Sith said:

They actually don't.

They accelerated the retirement of the 2002 MCIs and pushing a bunch of them over to MTA Bus, lowering the amount of buses they had altogether. Charleston, Yukon and Castleton are basically empty during AM and PM rush hour with little to no spare buses for pull out, and Meredith's spare factor isn't anything to gloat about.

They actually do have the buses.

Here's a hypothetical scenario: Let's say Academy goes to the NYCEDC and asks for a price increase because they have had to change the origination garage of the SIM23 and SIM24 and the NYCEDC says no. Academy gets all of their nerds together and decides not to run any more pre-2007 MCIs because of the maintenance costs and they decide to walk away from the EDC contract.

I would go to the newspaper, say mean things about the EDC until they agreed to give the MTA the money. Then, I would recommend that the MTA source the buses in the following manner:

1) Suspend the SIM4X and SIM8X until the new bus order comes in.
2) Pull four buses from the Hylan Boulevard-Midtown routes.

Congratulations, the MTA just covered the SIM23 and SIM24. On a coverage basis, the SIM23 and SIM24 are more important than the SIM4X and SIM8X. The time penalty for those customers would be 7-10 minutes. When the new buses come in, you restart that service.

It's a money issue. Nothing more. Academy will be there until NYCEDC agrees to pay the MTA EVERY SINGLE DOLLAR that Academy was paid. You can look at the Staten Island Advance articles to see that the city's goal was to offload the cost of the service onto the MTA. Most SI express buses have the SIM23 AND SIM24 in there for a reason. It's not because they can't do it.

[JAzumah]

11 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

But isn't it a rule that any route from a private carrier has to go to MTA Bus and not NYCT?

No. Think of MTA Bus as a contract bus company. They can run a whole bunch of separate operations elsewhere and keep them separate based on the work rules of each of those operations. That is much easier at MTA Bus than at NYCT, which was created by statute to do certain things.

In my world, the NYCEDC would pay MTA Bus a management fee in addition to paying Academy and MTA Bus would coordinate all of the scheduling on the South Shore. They would assign Academy and NYCT buses to coordinate and work together for maximum efficiency on the SIM23 and SIM24. In this environment, it is theoretically possible, but the city has a habit of making the MTA hold the bag. Giuliani made the MTA eat SIR's subsidy as well as a bigger share of paratransit's subsidy. The amount of officers in the subway are far less than when the MTA ran its own Transit Police. The MTA constantly gets the shaft and new creative deals with the city doesn't give anyone the warm fuzzies.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 hour ago, JAzumah said:

That's incorrect.

The reason why the NYCEDC was involved was because NYCDOT was not allowed to issue a franchise on Staten Island to a private carrier. No one bothered to sign a new authorizing resolution, so no one can operate bus service within the borders of NYC without prearrangement. NYCEDC bid the contract and asked private carriers to draw up two routes. I prepared two routes, but couldn't get the buses at a price I thought would win. Academy bid a variant of their existing bus system and Atlantic bid the X23 and X24. NYCDOT did oversee the buses through their franchise unit until they offloaded their franchise buses. I know that because I saw Atlantic's info pinned on the wall when I went over there. They only stopped when all of their franchise bus routes were folded into MTA Bus. I can't comment on how vigorously they oversaw them, but that is a different discussion altogether.

The original setup was NYCEDC as the pass-through, NYCDOT management, and a private operator. The MTA drew the SIM23 and SIM24 routes for Academy to transition to, so I am guessing that the MTA has made space for the SIM23 and SIM24 to come over...when they get paid for it.
 

As Future ENY OP says, the contract holder is NOT the MTA. As a general note, who is going to install MetroCard fareboxes on their buses for a short-term contract at a better price than Academy in this environment? The answer is no one.

 

With or without the platforms? You can always steal the seats from scrapped MCIs.



 

Just because they oversaw them doesn't mean they want to be involved in overseeing bus routes. You're talking about what happened. I'm talking about in general.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

49 minutes ago, JAzumah said:

They actually do have the buses.

Here's a hypothetical scenario: Let's say Academy goes to the NYCEDC and asks for a price increase because they have had to change the origination garage of the SIM23 and SIM24 and the NYCEDC says no. Academy gets all of their nerds together and decides not to run any more pre-2007 MCIs because of the maintenance costs and they decide to walk away from the EDC contract.

I would go to the newspaper, say mean things about the EDC until they agreed to give the MTA the money. Then, I would recommend that the MTA source the buses in the following manner:

1) Suspend the SIM4X and SIM8X until the new bus order comes in.
2) Pull four buses from the Hylan Boulevard-Midtown routes.

Congratulations, the MTA just covered the SIM23 and SIM24. On a coverage basis, the SIM23 and SIM24 are more important than the SIM4X and SIM8X. The time penalty for those customers would be 7-10 minutes. When the new buses come in, you restart that service.

It's a money issue. Nothing more. Academy will be there until NYCEDC agrees to pay the MTA EVERY SINGLE DOLLAR that Academy was paid. You can look at the Staten Island Advance articles to see that the city's goal was to offload the cost of the service onto the MTA. Most SI express buses have the SIM23 AND SIM24 in there for a reason. It's not because they can't do it.

As Cait said, they don't have the buses. If they did, then there would be no need to pull buses from anywhere as you propose, which would be a service cut, and something that myself nor the other Staten Island Express bus advocates would support.

[checkmatechamp13]

2 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

What long term contract? I don't know what you're talking about, but the plan and desire is to transfer those two lines to the  . When that will happen is unclear, but that is what several elected officials want on Staten Island, and what I have been privy to, and so for now Academy runs the lines until the change can be made. As others have said, one of the obstacles is a lack of buses. Staten Island on the express end still struggles with this. 

He said Atlantic Express had a long term contract back when they ran the X23/24, but that is not the case with Academy.

53 minutes ago, JAzumah said:

1) Suspend the SIM4X and SIM8X until the new bus order comes in.
2) Pull four buses from the Hylan Boulevard-Midtown routes.

Congratulations, the MTA just covered the SIM23 and SIM24. On a coverage basis, the SIM23 and SIM24 are more important than the SIM4X and SIM8X. The time penalty for those customers would be 7-10 minutes. When the new buses come in, you restart that service.

The SIM4X/8X in their current forms are useless (and I say that as a user of both) You could also save buses by swapping the terminals with the standard SIM4/8 during the hours of super-express operation. It doesn't make sense for the short-turn to run super-express and the full-length version to run local (well have a longer pickup portion and not skip any express bus stops).

[JAzumah]

1 minute ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

As Cait said, they don't have the buses. If they did, then there would be no need to pull buses from anywhere as you propose, which would be a service cut, and something that myself nor the other Staten Island Express bus advocates would support.

That is where you are going to have to change your mindset.

We provide transportation to transport PEOPLE. The thing is about those pesky customers is that they move around and their needs change. Since their needs are not static, the transportation system should not be static. The reallocation of resources IS a service cut in some places and a service increase in others. If we are going to ask the MTA to try new things, then we have to be able to accept the fact that some of those things may not work out or may need to be scaled back. The express bus system is running 90+% of normal capacity at 30-35% of its normal ridership. Neither you nor Cait Sith are going to be able to tell me that the resources don't exist to provide new services. That is not true. It's not about the fact that you are lying. It is about the fact that just because a bus is somewhere doing something does not mean it is the most useful role for that bus.

Everyone wants to talk about waste until they perceive a benefit from that waste. The MTA was designed to provide transportation. It is not designed to make money. That does not mean that everything new has to require new resources. Public agencies try not to touch anything because they get hell from those who want to change things and those who don't want anything changed. 

That isn't an option now, so we had all better be ready to send buses where they are needed most. That does not mean the SI express bus system goes away. In other boroughs, it may actually mean entire routes going away. We have to do what works or the system risks becoming irrelevant. My concern is that the SIM23 and SIM24 becomes irrelevant as it is being run now and it took years and years to get those routes out there. Intergovernmental tribalism is not a good excuse to have such a bad outcome.