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MTA/Academy Pool On The SIM23 & SIM24


JAzumah
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5 minutes ago, JAzumah said:

From the article:

“The only caveat is the finances have to add up. … We will have to strike the right deal with the city to make sure that we’re not inheriting a loss-making arrangement. We’ve got to be properly recompensed for taking that service over,” Byford said.

To recap:
1) The MTA wanted to take the service over.
2) The MTA says that the city has to subsidize them.
3) The NYCEDC is a city agency with literally unlimited scope, which is why they handle the tricky projects.
4) The MTA essentially redesigned the SIM23 and SIM24 for Academy to fit its network.

So the City has the money to give to the MTA (because it is giving it to Academy now) and it simply takes a small administrative transfer. What is the problem then? 

The problem is that the City doesn't want to give the MTA the money. PERIOD. Oddo himself has a large enough sausage to get it done. With all of the additional people on the bandwagon, why isn't it happening? You can't just listen to what people say. You have to watch what they do.

Two separate issues regardless. The (MTA) quite frankly couldn't just take over those lines even if they were given the money. Where do the buses and drivers come from when they're still short drivers? lol Across the system, they continue to post endless cancelled trips, every single day, so I don't buy the idea that the logistics would work themselves out. lol

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2 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Two separate issues regardless.

No, they are not two separate issues.

The SIM23 and SIM24 are functionally MTA routes being operated by a private carrier. The signs are in the MTA buses. The only thing that is stopping them is money. The MTA made it this way by screwing over the SI elected officials the first time. The deal was that the MTA would run two and the private sector would run two. The MTA's second "route" was a short turn of the first (X21). Naturally, that made people furious at them.

The one year contracts allow the City an easy out if they are able to strike a deal with the MTA. However, a private company is not going to invest in equipment for a one year bus contract. The reason that the SIM23 and SIM24 got upgraded equipment was to eliminate a fleet type that had very low acquisition costs, but higher maintenance costs.

The City can either give Academy a longer duration contract than one year or it can give the MTA the money. Doing neither is unacceptable.

 

 

1 hour ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Where do the buses and drivers come from when they're still short drivers? lol Across the system, they continue to post endless cancelled trips, every single day, so I don't buy the idea that the logistics would work themselves out.

Did the B98V and Q98V run? Yes? OK then.

The SIM23 and SIM24 is more important than the SIM4X and SIM8X. Those routes can take a nap if they need to. The SIM8X does have a future. The SIM4X? Not so much. In my scenario (a joint Academy/MTA pool), the MTA would "fill in the blanks" on the SIM23 and SIM24 until they can handle it themselves. That is the best way to handle things in the present.

***B35 via Church has entered the chat.***

I know that when I talk about shuffling buses, it upsets a certain bus route (and I totally get it), but the MTA can make buses and drivers appear when needed.

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6 hours ago, JAzumah said:

No, they are not two separate issues.

The SIM23 and SIM24 are functionally MTA routes being operated by a private carrier. The signs are in the MTA buses. The only thing that is stopping them is money. The MTA made it this way by screwing over the SI elected officials the first time. The deal was that the MTA would run two and the private sector would run two. The MTA's second "route" was a short turn of the first (X21). Naturally, that made people furious at them.

The one year contracts allow the City an easy out if they are able to strike a deal with the MTA. However, a private company is not going to invest in equipment for a one year bus contract. The reason that the SIM23 and SIM24 got upgraded equipment was to eliminate a fleet type that had very low acquisition costs, but higher maintenance costs.

The City can either give Academy a longer duration contract than one year or it can give the MTA the money. Doing neither is unacceptable.

 

 

Did the B98V and Q98V run? Yes? OK then.

The SIM23 and SIM24 is more important than the SIM4X and SIM8X. Those routes can take a nap if they need to. The SIM8X does have a future. The SIM4X? Not so much. In my scenario (a joint Academy/MTA pool), the MTA would "fill in the blanks" on the SIM23 and SIM24 until they can handle it themselves. That is the best way to handle things in the present.

***B35 via Church has entered the chat.***

I know that when I talk about shuffling buses, it upsets a certain bus route (and I totally get it), but the MTA can make buses and drivers appear when needed.

Yeah my point was WITHOUT cutting service elsewhere. Taking from one bus line to give to another is not "shuffling buses around". It's stealing service from one set of customers to give service to another set. Years ago, I used to hear from bus operators when I lived in Brooklyn that they would prioritize lines like the B36 and take service off of the B4, leading to waits of 45 minutes to an hour. There is nothing great about that at all, especially for the people stuck waiting.

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On 2/25/2021 at 4:10 PM, JAzumah said:

They actually do have the buses.

Here's a hypothetical scenario: Let's say Academy goes to the NYCEDC and asks for a price increase because they have had to change the origination garage of the SIM23 and SIM24 and the NYCEDC says no. Academy gets all of their nerds together and decides not to run any more pre-2007 MCIs because of the maintenance costs and they decide to walk away from the EDC contract.

I would go to the newspaper, say mean things about the EDC until they agreed to give the MTA the money. Then, I would recommend that the MTA source the buses in the following manner:

1) Suspend the SIM4X and SIM8X until the new bus order comes in.
2) Pull four buses from the Hylan Boulevard-Midtown routes.

Congratulations, the MTA just covered the SIM23 and SIM24. On a coverage basis, the SIM23 and SIM24 are more important than the SIM4X and SIM8X. The time penalty for those customers would be 7-10 minutes. When the new buses come in, you restart that service.

It's a money issue. Nothing more. Academy will be there until NYCEDC agrees to pay the MTA EVERY SINGLE DOLLAR that Academy was paid. You can look at the Staten Island Advance articles to see that the city's goal was to offload the cost of the service onto the MTA. Most SI express buses have the SIM23 AND SIM24 in there for a reason. It's not because they can't do it.

Suspending the routes ending in “X” is not an option. You don’t suspend highly patronized routes until new buses come in! That is very, totally idiotic of you. The only way you suspend routes is if they are lower than the actual ridership. The way that transit operates buses in Staten Island isn’t the way they operate in other boroughs. As @checkmatechamp13 puts it, it goes according to the time of day. 

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10 hours ago, FLX9304 said:

Suspending the routes ending in “X” is not an option. You don’t suspend highly patronized routes until new buses come in! That is very, totally idiotic of you. The only way you suspend routes is if they are lower than the actual ridership. The way that transit operates buses in Staten Island isn’t the way they operate in other boroughs. As @checkmatechamp13 puts it, it goes according to the time of day. 

Actually for the SIM4X/8X, I would actually agree with suspending them (as someone who uses both routes). The SIM4X especially was barely scraping by even pre-pandemic (Once in a while it would get crowded, but only if there was a delay in the SIM4 and it happened to come first). The problem is that they are set up in a stupid way (a short-turn super-express with a full-length local, instead of a short-turn local and full-length super-express). If they were to restructure the "X" routes, then it would be a different story, but unfortunately with the way they run now, they are set up to fail.

For Hylan Blvd, you could save a lot more resources by restructuring them to be more in line with the old pattern within Staten Island (each Manhattan corridor has an "Eltingville via Father Capodanno" and "New Dorp via Hylan" version). That would actually be a win-win for both the MTA and passengers.

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12 hours ago, FLX9304 said:

You don’t suspend highly patronized routes until new buses come in!

The buses exist. I am not guessing about that. I know that they exist. 

In addition, there is nothing highly patronized about the SIM4X. The SIM8X has potential, but the SIM4X is WEAK. Imagine if those resources were poured into hourly SIM2 service on nights and weekends. The SIM2's service design was sabotaged from the beginning and they did not give the route time to develop off-peak service.

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10 hours ago, JAzumah said:

The buses exist. I am not guessing about that. I know that they exist. 

In addition, there is nothing highly patronized about the SIM4X. The SIM8X has potential, but the SIM4X is WEAK. Imagine if those resources were poured into hourly SIM2 service on nights and weekends. The SIM2's service design was sabotaged from the beginning and they did not give the route time to develop off-peak service.

The Sim2 night and weekends were a different story. There was no ridership on those hours of service. You’re talking an average of 4 passengers per bus during that time. It’s not about “let’s wait a month or 2”, let’s see how the daily Sim2 works from Downtown to Tottenville. The same fate was said to the Sim5X & the Sim6X. Few passengers per bus, then discontinued them and made the Sim9. 

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7 hours ago, FLX9304 said:

The Sim2 night and weekends were a different story. There was no ridership on those hours of service. You’re talking an average of 4 passengers per bus during that time. It’s not about “let’s wait a month or 2”, let’s see how the daily Sim2 works from Downtown to Tottenville. The same fate was said to the Sim5X & the Sim6X. Few passengers per bus, then discontinued them and made the Sim9. 

I talked with the (MTA) a few years ago regarding the SIM2 in a meeting.  I was told that the SIM2 resources went into lines like the SIM3C/SIM33C.  The issue with the SIM2 was there was too much service off-peak and weekends.  They started service far too early. You could do every 30 minutes or every hour and start service to Tottenville later and service to Manhattan later, but to end the entire thing was just unacceptable and I made that abundantly clear. It's a new service to an area of Staten Island that is transit starved, and has been begging for service for years. Everyone south of ETC has to drive to ETC on weekends and off-peak.  There should be a Tottenville bus to Midtown on weekends. It is something I plan to undertake at a later time once things settle down. The service was poorly advertised and ended too soon. Funny thing is they asked me how I would advertise it. I told them the same way they advertised Metro-North in my area... With ads at the bus shelters, etc.

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4 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

They started service far too early. You could do every 30 minutes or every hour and start service to Tottenville later and service to Manhattan later, but to end the entire thing was just unacceptable and I made that abundantly clear. It's a new service to an area of Staten Island that is transit starved, and has been begging for service for years.

The SIM2 was sabotaged. They didn't want to run it off-peak, so they short-turned the bus from the weekend activity centers (Midtown and the East/West Village). Then, they overran that service and killed it barely three months in. It was obvious that the route was a victim of a hit job.

Why wasn't the SIM33C short turned Downtown? The former X10 people screamed their heads off about not breaking what worked as well as the X17 folks screaming about the scenic route. Off-peak buses have to serve the off-peak activity centers. This isn't a complicated concept.

 

 

12 hours ago, FLX9304 said:

It’s not about “let’s wait a month or 2”, let’s see how the daily Sim2 works from Downtown to Tottenville.

The MTA redesigned the entire express bus system on Staten Island. It was absolutely about waiting a month or two. It can take a bus route between 3-9 months to stabilize in ridership. The SIM2 wasn't even given 3 months. It was totally unfair to the South Shore of Staten Island. It should have been hourly and gone all the way to Midtown off-peak.

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7 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I talked with the (MTA) a few years ago regarding the SIM2 in a meeting.  I was told that the SIM2 resources went into lines like the SIM3C/SIM33C.  The issue with the SIM2 was there was too much service off-peak and weekends.  They started service far too early. You could do every 30 minutes or every hour and start service to Tottenville later and service to Manhattan later, but to end the entire thing was just unacceptable and I made that abundantly clear. It's a new service to an area of Staten Island that is transit starved, and has been begging for service for years. Everyone south of ETC has to drive to ETC on weekends and off-peak.  There should be a Tottenville bus to Midtown on weekends. It is something I plan to undertake at a later time once things settle down. The service was poorly advertised and ended too soon. Funny thing is they asked me how I would advertise it. I told them the same way they advertised Metro-North in my area... With ads at the bus shelters, etc.

Tell Outfront that and we’ll wait and see what happens. They’re the ones the MTA pays to have ads on their transit vehicles 

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4 hours ago, FLX9304 said:

Tell Outfront that and we’ll wait and see what happens. They’re the ones the MTA pays to have ads on their transit vehicles 

Too late now. In any case, I didn't get the impression that the (MTA) has some large marketing team.

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2 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Too late now. In any case, I didn't get the impression that the (MTA) has some large marketing team.

Never too late for anything, because anything can change with a glimpse of an 👁👁

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On 6/15/2021 at 10:45 AM, FLX9304 said:

The Sim2 night and weekends were a different story. There was no ridership on those hours of service. You’re talking an average of 4 passengers per bus during that time. It’s not about “let’s wait a month or 2”, let’s see how the daily Sim2 works from Downtown to Tottenville. The same fate was said to the Sim5X & the Sim6X. Few passengers per bus, then discontinued them and made the Sim9. 

The SIM2 didn't run nights. You can't have any riders if you don't run any service!

The last bus was 8:15pm out of Chambers Street. The old X17 ran until around 12:30am Downtown (on weekdays...weekends ended around 9pm-9:30pm Downtown). That's what people are referring to when they talk about "night" or "evening" service on the SIM2.

As for weekends, having 4-5 passengers per one-way trip (It was about 600 per weekend divided by 60 round-trips) is an average that includes reverse-peak trips that carried pretty much nobody.

On 6/15/2021 at 6:29 PM, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I talked with the (MTA) a few years ago regarding the SIM2 in a meeting.  I was told that the SIM2 resources went into lines like the SIM3C/SIM33C.  The issue with the SIM2 was there was too much service off-peak and weekends.  They started service far too early. You could do every 30 minutes or every hour and start service to Tottenville later and service to Manhattan later, but to end the entire thing was just unacceptable and I made that abundantly clear. It's a new service to an area of Staten Island that is transit starved, and has been begging for service for years. 

The bus started at 4:30am because the first X17 out of Arden Heights was at 4:30am and they wanted to get those people into Manhattan at a comparable time. For the reverse-peak service, you could eliminate it but at the same time, you wouldn't save that much money because the bus has to deadhead in that direction anyway.

On 6/15/2021 at 6:29 PM, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Everyone south of ETC has to drive to ETC on weekends and off-peak. 

They don't have to. The SIM4C runs in that area and is quicker than the SIM1C. The problem is that it is much slower than the SIM2 and doesn't cover nearly as much of the South Shore.

On 6/15/2021 at 6:29 PM, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

There should be a Tottenville bus to Midtown on weekends.

 

On 6/15/2021 at 11:21 PM, JAzumah said:

It should have been hourly and gone all the way to Midtown off-peak.

It doesn't have to run to Midtown. All they had to do was wait for it to catch on and it would've. It still performed better than the BM routes and BxM4/QM4. The people in Arden Heights (who were the majority of the off-peak riders) preferred the SIM2 to the old X17 and the new SIM4C because it was faster (despite the X17/SIM4C running to Midtown)

On 6/15/2021 at 11:21 PM, JAzumah said:

Why wasn't the SIM33C short turned Downtown?

Because long story short, they didn't want their staff tied up in Staten Island matters when they had to redesign the other four boroughs. So they basically threw up their hands, said "For the major complaints, give them something similar to what they had before, and we'll revisit it when we come back for the local routes". If they had the conversation about Staten Island coverage vs. Manhattan coverage, they would've found that the riders were quite receptive. (I took a quick poll on the very Facebook page designed to protest the redesign and 22 people agreed with me and 6 disagreed with me).

In any case, having a Downtown-only route comes in handy when Midtown and the East Village are blocked with parades and buses are severely delayed. There were times when I would be waiting an hour for either an X10 or X17 to come on a Sunday. When the SIM2 was introduced, at least I could count on something heading my way. (When they swapped out the SIM2 for the SIM33C, the problem sort of resolved itself only because with three routes headed to my area, I could usually get something but I'd much rather have a single fast, direct, reliable route rather than three unreliable routes coming together to provide some semblance of reliable service)

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11 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

It doesn't have to run to Midtown. All they had to do was wait for it to catch on and it would've. It still performed better than the BM routes and BxM4/QM4. The people in Arden Heights (who were the majority of the off-peak riders) preferred the SIM2 to the old X17 and the new SIM4C because it was faster (despite the X17/SIM4C running to Midtown)

It needs to run to Midtown. You are thinking of the SIM2 as the SIM2. I think of the SIM2 as the weekend option for the SIM22/23/24/25/26. What do all of those routes have in common?

It would have caught on regardless, but the bus needs to go to Midtown. When folks get off that bus, they want to walk to their Manhattan destination. The weekend action is in Midtown and the East/West Village. The old X10 and X17 hit those spots perfectly. Don't change what works.

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7 hours ago, JAzumah said:

It needs to run to Midtown. You are thinking of the SIM2 as the SIM2. I think of the SIM2 as the weekend option for the SIM22/23/24/25/26. What do all of those routes have in common?

It would have caught on regardless, but the bus needs to go to Midtown. When folks get off that bus, they want to walk to their Manhattan destination. The weekend action is in Midtown and the East/West Village. The old X10 and X17 hit those spots perfectly. Don't change what works.

Constant bunching on 30 minute headways (and sometimes even on 60 minute headways) is something that "works"? Also keep in mind that none of the routes you mentioned go to Greenwich Village.

I'm not opposed to a direct South Shore-Midtown off-peak route (e.g. Take the old X22, maybe toss in a few stops on South Avenue for good measure and run that off-peak). But I'm opposed to the "C" routes except for overnight (I think the original SIM4C via Gannon would be a good overnight route)

My ideal off-peak network would be the SIM2, a SIM25/26 combo running via South & Forest, SIM34 branched between Port Richmond & Mariners Harbor and extended to 23rd Street, SIM1 extended to 23rd Street, SIM10 (or SIM6), SIM4, SIM8, and SIM32. 

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, JAzumah said:

It needs to run to Midtown. You are thinking of the SIM2 as the SIM2. I think of the SIM2 as the weekend option for the SIM22/23/24/25/26. What do all of those routes have in common?

It would have caught on regardless, but the bus needs to go to Midtown. When folks get off that bus, they want to walk to their Manhattan destination. The weekend action is in Midtown and the East/West Village. The old X10 and X17 hit those spots perfectly. Don't change what works.

You don't need a service running specifically from Tottenville, via Brooklyn, up to (some point in) Midtown on weekends - regardless of how trendy or quote-unquote happenin' those portions of Manhattan are....

1 hour ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

I'm not opposed to a direct South Shore-Midtown off-peak route (e.g. Take the old X22, maybe toss in a few stops on South Avenue for good measure and run that off-peak). But I'm opposed to the "C" routes except for overnight (I think the original SIM4C via Gannon would be a good overnight route)

Not only am I not opposed to a direct South Shore - Midtown route, I'd much rather run it, over a weekend version of a SIM2 to Midtown....

Edited by B35 via Church
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22 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

You don't need a service running specifically from Tottenville, via Brooklyn, up to (some point in) Midtown on weekends - regardless of how trendy or quote-unquote happenin' those portions of Manhattan are....

Not only am I not opposed to a direct South Shore - Midtown route, I'd much rather run it, over a weekend version of a SIM2 to Midtown....

I can understand the thinking behind that. I just wonder if the catchment area would be big enough on weekends to warrant the service. With a Midtown-Downtown route, you have more opportunity to pick-up passengers. I certainly don't think a Downtown only South Shore route would carry enough passengers.

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10 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I can understand the thinking behind that. I just wonder if the catchment area would be big enough on weekends to warrant the service. With a Midtown-Downtown route, you have more opportunity to pick-up passengers. I certainly don't think a Downtown only South Shore route would carry enough passengers.

Instating the SIM2 on weekends would have the vast majority of riders gunning for the subway.... I most certainly see that being a turnoff...

With a Midtown direct service, I wouldn't have it solely serving Midtown; I'd run it as far south as Houston (from 42nd; Lincoln Tunnel).... South of SoHo on weekends, pax aren't really gunning for that part of Manhattan on weekends, so I'd mitigate those costs / that mileage & cater such a service to where more of the pax. are gunning for; that pocket binding Midtown & NoHo....

I would be more on board with a Midtown - Downtown - South Shore route if the catchment area in the South Shore was trimmed a bit.... From Tottenville is too much...

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Instating the SIM2 on weekends would have the vast majority of riders gunning for the subway.... I most certainly see that being a turnoff...

With a Midtown direct service, I wouldn't have it solely serving Midtown; I'd run it as far south as Houston (from 42nd; Lincoln Tunnel).... South of SoHo on weekends, pax aren't really gunning for that part of Manhattan on weekends, so I'd mitigate those costs / that mileage & cater such a service to where more of the pax. are gunning for; that pocket binding Midtown & NoHo....

I would be more on board with a Midtown - Downtown - South Shore route if the catchment area in the South Shore was trimmed a bit.... From Tottenville is too much...

I would disagree. I think the service should run from Tottenville, based on the feedback I've received from residents, along with ongoing comments for years that the South Shore needs more transportation options (which is true). I'm not one of these people that believes in just running a ton of service just because. Service should be in line with demand, but at the same time, they should have something on weekends. I think the reasonable thing to do is start with hourly service and just run it from 57th all the way down, and I'll explain why. While demand isn't exploding south of SoHo, there is some down there, and for the few minutes you'd be saving, I think it's worth it. 


Now I think some of concerns about traffic and run times are due to the fact that express buses have been dealing with congestion issues (they definitely were before the pandemic), BUT if the DOT follows through with their plans along 5th Avenue (I was involved with the meetings to make it a busway), that could mean buses moving better. The plan is to eventually have cameras in the bus lanes, whether 5th is a busway or not. If you have better enforcement, the stops Downtown really wouldn't be a big deal. The Midtown-Downtown segment can be done in about 30-32 minutes, which is quite reasonable, and I know that is the case because I have done it many times over the years, both on Brooklyn and Staten Island express buses, and even since the SIM redesign. In fact I rode a lot from Midtown when I lived on Staten Island on weekends, but I also frequented places Downtown on weekends as well, so while I don't necessarily disagree with you that demand drops off south of SoHo, you're not blowing up the bank either to serve the remaining Downtown stops. What I would focus on is keeping the stops more like local subway stops, so maybe start it up by Lex and 57th. I'd do something like this:

-Lex & 57th or Mad & 57th (people will have the option of getting it that work, shop or dine, which plenty of Staten Islanders do on weekends)

-Maybe one stop at Mad & 57th if it started at Lex & 57th

-5th & 54th

-5th & 48th

-5th & 41st

-5th & 34th

-5th & 23rd

-Broadway & 13th

-Broadway & Waverly Pl

-Broadway & Broome

-Broadway & Walker

-Make all of the regular SIM2 Downtown stops (5 stops)

So 15-16 Manhattan stops total. Pretty reasonable.

To Midtown, the Manhattan stops would be something similar.

 

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36 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Now I think some of concerns about traffic and run times are due to the fact that express buses have been dealing with congestion issues (they definitely were before the pandemic), BUT if the DOT follows through with their plans along 5th Avenue (I was involved with the meetings to make it a busway), that could mean buses moving better. The plan is to eventually have cameras in the bus lanes, whether 5th is a busway or not. If you have better enforcement, the stops Downtown really wouldn't be a big deal.

The problem on weekends isn't necessarily traffic. It's parades and detours along the whole route, and even if they make 5th Avenue into a busway and forbid parades from traveling along it (unlikely), there's still Broadway to deal with.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I would disagree. I think the service should run from Tottenville, based on the feedback I've received from residents, along with ongoing comments for years that the South Shore needs more transportation options (which is true). I'm not one of these people that believes in just running a ton of service just because. Service should be in line with demand, but at the same time, they should have something on weekends. I think the reasonable thing to do is start with hourly service and just run it from 57th all the way down, and I'll explain why. While demand isn't exploding south of SoHo, there is some down there, and for the few minutes you'd be saving, I think it's worth it. 


Now I think some of concerns about traffic and run times are due to the fact that express buses have been dealing with congestion issues (they definitely were before the pandemic), BUT if the DOT follows through with their plans along 5th Avenue (I was involved with the meetings to make it a busway), that could mean buses moving better. The plan is to eventually have cameras in the bus lanes, whether 5th is a busway or not. If you have better enforcement, the stops Downtown really wouldn't be a big deal. The Midtown-Downtown segment can be done in about 30-32 minutes, which is quite reasonable, and I know that is the case because I have done it many times over the years, both on Brooklyn and Staten Island express buses, and even since the SIM redesign. In fact I rode a lot from Midtown when I lived on Staten Island on weekends, but I also frequented places Downtown on weekends as well, so while I don't necessarily disagree with you that demand drops off south of SoHo, you're not blowing up the bank either to serve the remaining Downtown stops. What I would focus on is keeping the stops more like local subway stops, so maybe start it up by Lex and 57th. I'd do something like this:

-Lex & 57th or Mad & 57th (people will have the option of getting it that work, shop or dine, which plenty of Staten Islanders do on weekends)

-Maybe one stop at Mad & 57th if it started at Lex & 57th

-5th & 54th

-5th & 48th

-5th & 41st

-5th & 34th

-5th & 23rd

-Broadway & 13th

-Broadway & Waverly Pl

-Broadway & Broome

-Broadway & Walker

-Make all of the regular SIM2 Downtown stops (5 stops)

So 15-16 Manhattan stops total. Pretty reasonable.

To Midtown, the Manhattan stops would be something similar.

Whatever feedback you've received from any individual Tottenville patron{s} specifically, can't be of someone wanting Midtown & Downtown at the same time though.... They either want Midtown, Downtown, or the neighborhoods b/w it (like SoHo, NoHo, etc).... Point being, there's no real nuance in this case between [creating an efficient enough service that's in line with demand, considering the sheer amt. of mileage b/w Tottenville & Midtown (57th, since you bring it up... IDK where Jazumah would run it to)] & [creating a service that attempts to fill as many nooks & crannies as it can, simply because nothing currently exists].... It's why I don't have a problem with a quote-unquote Midtown direct service on weekends..... How many of those folks (South Shore patrons) want Downtown, compared to Midtown, compared to areas between Downtown & Midtown....

You say you're not one of these people that opts to want to run a ton of service just because, and that's good.... I'm one of these people that doesn't believe that services should eat up mileage that it doesn't necessarily have to...

It's funny how the same people that want an all encompassing amt. of route coverage, often complain about wait times and/or trip times being too long... This was exactly the case with the x17C experiment to Tottenville.... A SIM2 Downtown-Midtown route would be much faster than that abomination, but I still have a problem with this having your cake & eating it too mentality that a lot of transit riders possess in this city....

1 hour ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

The problem on weekends isn't necessarily traffic. It's parades and detours along the whole route, and even if they make 5th Avenue into a busway and forbid parades from traveling along it (unlikely), there's still Broadway to deal with.

I'm not sure if you're talking during pre-covid times, but if so, it actually was (traffic) - especially around that noon to like, 4-5pm slot on Saturdays.... The parades & detours only exacerbated matters.

Edited by B35 via Church
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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

The problem on weekends isn't necessarily traffic. It's parades and detours along the whole route, and even if they make 5th Avenue into a busway and forbid parades from traveling along it (unlikely), there's still Broadway to deal with.

I travel on weekends. Traffic was definitely an issue pre-pandemic. Not sure why you would say it wasn't an issue. Parades have always happened down 5th. They aren't going away. I've worked along 5th Avenue in some capacity almost my entire career, and I'm somewhere on or near 5th on weekends often, be it Midtown, Chelsea or what have you. You deal with them. They're annoying, but they don't happen every single weekend.  I have taken the SIMs from up by CPS plenty of times. I don't find the travel time to be insane on weekends from Midtown to Downtown.

1 hour ago, B35 via Church said:

Whatever feedback you've received from any individual Tottenville patron{s} specifically, can't be of someone wanting Midtown & Downtown at the same time though.... They either want Midtown, Downtown, or the neighborhoods b/w it (like SoHo, NoHo, etc).... Point being, there's no real nuance in this case between [creating an efficient enough service that's in line with demand, considering the sheer amt. of mileage b/w Tottenville & Midtown (57th, since you bring it up... IDK where Jazumah would run it to)] & [creating a service that attempts to fill as many nooks & crannies as it can, simply because nothing currently exists].... It's why I don't have a problem with a quote-unquote Midtown direct service on weekends..... How many of those folks (South Shore patrons) want Downtown, compared to Midtown, compared to areas between Downtown & Midtown....

You say you're not one of these people that opts to want to run a ton of service just because, and that's good.... I'm one of these people that doesn't believe that services should eat up mileage that it doesn't necessarily have to...

It's funny how the same people that want an all encompassing amt. of route coverage, often complain about wait times and/or trip times being too long... This was exactly the case with the x17C experiment to Tottenville.... A SIM2 Downtown-Midtown route would be much faster than that abomination, but I still have a problem with this having your cake & eating it too mentality that a lot of transit riders possess in this city....

I'm not sure if you're talking during pre-covid times, but if so, it actually was (traffic) - especially around that noon to like, 4-5pm slot on Saturdays.... The parades & detours only exacerbated matters.

If you're arguing that you'd run it down to SoHo, then might as well run it further down. My guess is you'd have it take the Holland Tunnel, and quite frankly, I've gone that way on weekends. It is long and slow. By the time you do all of that, you might as well just send it down Broadway. If anything it make take longer going that way. I'm just not convinced that a Midtown only or Downtown only express bus would garner enough ridership, so a "Combination" route makes the most sense. 

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30 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

If you're arguing that you'd run it down to SoHo, then might as well run it further down. My guess is you'd have it take the Holland Tunnel, and quite frankly, I've gone that way on weekends. It is long and slow. By the time you do all of that, you might as well just send it down Broadway. If anything it make take longer going that way.

My argument is that such a service (if it were to run from Tottenville) should serve Midtown over Downtown on weekends & not both.... For the sake of discussion, I'd side with terminating a service at, or somewhere in the vicinity of Houston; where the M5 used to end.... I don't see a Midtown direct SIM2 via NJ, down from 42nd (which would be the Lincoln Tunnel) to NoHo or SoHo being longer than a SIM2 extension up to 57th, from Worth, via Brooklyn....

30 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I'm just not convinced that a Midtown only or Downtown only express bus would garner enough ridership, so a "Combination" route makes the most sense. 

What I am convinced of is that a majority of weekend express riders that get off in Downtown from SI gun for the subway.... There's something to that.... That phenomenon is what I would try to quell, or even eliminate....

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55 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

My argument is that such a service (if it were to run from Tottenville) should serve Midtown over Downtown on weekends & not both.... For the sake of discussion, I'd side with terminating a service at, or somewhere in the vicinity of Houston; where the M5 used to end.... I don't see a Midtown direct SIM2 via NJ, down from 42nd (which would be the Lincoln Tunnel) to NoHo or SoHo being longer than a SIM2 extension up to 57th, from Worth, via Brooklyn....

What I am convinced of is that a majority of weekend express riders that get off in Downtown from SI gun for the subway.... There's something to that.... That phenomenon is what I would try to quell, or even eliminate....

Yes, some of them do, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're taking the subway to places the SIMs go. On the other hand, plenty of people will stay on the express bus to Midtown because they want no part of the subway. I wouldn't mind a Midtown route on weekends if it did well, but the Downtown SIM2 did not perform well serving just five stops Downtown, hence why I would just run them from Midtown. As I said, I thought they not only had a small catchment area, but the scheduling was terrible. Too much service. Start times were too early, esp. the return service back to Tottenville (no one is using an express bus that early). Expand the catchment area, trim down the span and see how that works.

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