First it was the ferries, now it's the express bus...

[B35 via Church]

8 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I used the X25 from Park Row to Grand Central a few times and it had a good seated load, so they didn't all run empty. If it was better advertised, it would've been used better. These people were regulars too, as the driver spoke to all of them like he knew them. It was a nice alternative to the overcrowded subway. 

These are the sort of people that take Ubers like myself. When I have meetings Downtown, I often get an Uber back to my office in Midtown. When the X25 ran, I would take that if I was in the area. They are there, and if marketed accordingly, you can get them. The income level of Metro-North riders averages over $100,000 IIRC. The express bus fare was nothing they couldn't afford. Just needed a larger base.

I too agree that the X25 was mismanaged.

As for the ferry, I won't disagree about the real estate interests. If we're talking about Williamsburg, it certainly helped the areas away from the subway. Those people earning over $100,000 prefer to take it. That said, the key word is average. There are plenty of New Yorkers that use the ferry that don't have such high salaries. Soundview is a perfect example of this. It has helped to cut commute times down by about half or more. There are a number of people from that area that also drive up to Bruckner and White Plains Road for the BxM8.

These are mainly working class people at best to solid middle class, so paying just $2.75, the cost of a subway ride makes it more enticing, which was the City's goal from the start. I was privy to the EIS statements before the public saw them, as I was serving several clients on that project. The location of the slips in particular was studied greatly in terms of the environmental impact, but also looking at the demographics of the areas served, so it's not just targeted for upper income people. 

As for the X90, it definitely carried more than the X25, but we're talking about a very similar ridership base working in the financial area. Again, similar income levels and demographics.

I've also used them from time to time; mainly the PM trips (as in, from WFC)..... Obviously they didn't all run empty... I'm well aware of the clientele that utilized the thing..... Fact of the matter is that there were more times the thing ran closer to being empty, than the thing having a good seated load.... It was what it was.... I personally hate the cost per rider stat, but the thing was as high as it was for the x25 for a reason..... The thing was an afterthought for the Peter Cooper folks in-particular.... Route would've been far better off running to the UES/Yorkville like the old x90 did, instead of largely relying on MNRR riders.... x25 was one of those routes that looked good on paper (a route from the infamous GCT to one of the CBD's in this city - well damn, how could something like that not garner SRO patronage every single time)...... That aside, while poor advertising is an issue with buses in this city in general, better advertising is something that would not have greatly helped the x25...

As for the x90, well yeah, the thing consisted largely of riders directly coming from their places of residence in the morning.... Even with the advent of the M15 SBS years afterwards, I'd still say the x90 should have been kept around to this day.

5 hours ago, JAzumah said:

That's the advertising angle! A bus that thinks it's a taxi.

You have a flyer showing the X25 waiting in the taxi line outside of the station. On that flyer, you show the UniTicket prices.

You add a "Downtown" zone to all of the East of Hudson timetables and show a red, green, and blue line on the map stretching to Wall Street & the WFC on the Metro-North map. Everybody would flash the pass to the bus operator.

Thing is, RR riders aren't particularly fond of taking buses after having endured long (enough) commutes on the RR they'd just came off of.... This is something I've come to realize over the course of time, unfortunately.... No creative amount of advertising is going to shake/shirk that....

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 hour ago, B35 via Church said:

I've also used them from time to time; mainly the PM trips (as in, from WFC)..... Obviously they didn't all run empty... I'm well aware of the clientele that utilized the thing..... Fact of the matter is that there were more times the thing ran closer to being empty, than the thing having a good seated load.... It was what it was.... I personally hate the cost per rider stat, but the thing was as high as it was for the x25 for a reason..... The thing was an afterthought for the Peter Cooper folks in-particular.... Route would've been far better off running to the UES/Yorkville like the old x90 did, instead of largely relying on MNRR riders.... x25 was one of those routes that looked good on paper (a route from the infamous GCT to one of the CBD's in this city - well damn, how could something like that not garner SRO patronage every single time)...... That aside, while poor advertising is an issue with buses in this city in general, better advertising is something that would not have greatly helped the x25...

As for the x90, well yeah, the thing consisted largely of riders directly coming from their places of residence in the morning.... Even with the advent of the M15 SBS years afterwards, I'd still say the x90 should have been kept around to this day.

Thing is, RR riders aren't particularly fond of taking buses after having endured long (enough) commutes on the RR they'd just came off of.... This is something I've come to realize over the course of time, unfortunately.... No creative amount of advertising is going to shake/shirk that....

I think it was primarily the morning buses that were the real problem, as those in particular were empty, as people sometimes don't have as much flexibility and need to be in. Aside from that, the people that did use them were mainly RR riders. Just as you say that some RR riders don't like buses, there are plenty that HATE taking the subway (after all, they live in the suburbs, and part of that is to not take the subway if they don't have to). I think better advertising would've helped. My old office consisted mainly of suburban types from Long Island, Greenwich, Staten Island and so on. Some drove in, some took the train in and tolerated the subway since we were only a few stops from Penn Station at that time, but we also had a good number of express bus riders aside from myself. I actually used to take the express bus in and transfer to the subway in the mornings, but that was also when I wasn't as aware of all of my express bus options. As I started to dig further, there was a bus right near me that I could've taken to my office in Chelsea, and had I known that, I would've jumped on it.

[B35 via Church]

1 minute ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I think it was primarily the morning buses that were the real problem, as those in particular were empty, as people sometimes don't have as much flexibility and need to be in. Aside from that, the people that did use them were mainly RR riders. Just as you say that some RR riders don't like buses, there are plenty that HATE taking the subway (after all, they live in the suburbs, and part of that is to not take the subway if they don't have to). I think better advertising would've helped....

Yeah, I would say that the PM trips were used more than the AM trips, but overall, the route grossly under-performed for what it was supposed to have accomplished.... Luckily it wasn't discontinued back when they canned that x26 (which had the same RR-to-express bus model, reliant on transporting ppl. coming from off the LIRR & NJT to BPC/WFC) years before the 2010 cuts....

To your point about the subway, I'm not making this about the subway vs. the bus, so yeah those types (commuting to Manhattan via a RR) also abhor xferring to the subway (hence the ESA project, but that's neither here nor there as it pertains to the old x25)....

4 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

....My old office consisted mainly of suburban types from Long Island, Greenwich, Staten Island and so on. Some drove in, some took the train in and tolerated the subway since we were only a few stops from Penn Station at that time, but we also had a good number of express bus riders aside from myself. I actually used to take the express bus in and transfer to the subway in the mornings, but that was also when I wasn't as aware of all of my express bus options. As I started to dig further, there was a bus right near me that I could've taken to my office in Chelsea, and had I known that, I would've jumped on it.

Had more people known about the x25, it still wouldn't have been enough people that would've actually considered taking it (regardless of how slash happy the MTA got in 2010 that led to the thing's demise), especially enough to where it would have flourished, especially remaining to terminating at GCT... That is a fallacy us public transit advocates like to believe; hell even I'm guilty of it..... With that said, I don't have to tell you that there are people that reside in the suburbs that know of bus routes that run in their communities, yet would not be caught dead on them, themselves...

[Via Garibaldi 8]

15 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

Yeah, I would say that the PM trips were used more than the AM trips, but overall, the route grossly under-performed for what it was supposed to have accomplished.... Luckily it wasn't discontinued back when they canned that x26 (which had the same RR-to-express bus model, reliant on transporting ppl. coming from off the LIRR & NJT to BPC/WFC) years before the 2010 cuts....

To your point about the subway, I'm not making this about the subway vs. the bus, so yeah those types (commuting to Manhattan via a RR) also abhor xferring to the subway (hence the ESA project, but that's neither here nor there as it pertains to the old x25)....

Had more people known about the x25, it still wouldn't have been enough people that would've actually considered taking it (regardless of how slash happy the MTA got in 2010 that led to the thing's demise), especially enough to where it would have flourished, especially remaining to terminating at GCT... That is a fallacy us public transit advocates like to believe; hell even I'm guilty of it..... With that said, I don't have to tell you that there are people that reside in the suburbs that know of bus routes that run in their communities, yet would not be caught dead on them, themselves...

If they are local buses yes... But we're talking about NYC. I don't think such a route would ever flourish either, but you'd get decent usage if better marketed and re-structured. Scale back the number of trips a bit, and the line would've been ok. I'm really talking about those taxi, Uber or car types that you could get. If they're getting a car, they are the type that would perhaps consider an express bus depending on the marketing (consider the key word). I know we have a lot of subway fans in here, but there are a number of people that absolutely hate the subways, and I am finding increasingly that more people are gravitating towards either driving or taking Uber, my point being that there's market out there for those that want alternatives to the subway. I'm not saying that is an express bus per se, but again, all depends on how you market it. When I moved to Riverdale years ago, I had no intention of using Metro-North. It was "out of the way" for me, even if I could walk or drive to it. It was the  's marketing that got me using not only just occasionally, but then becoming a monthly rider to boot. I would've never thought I would be buying monthly passes on that thing. They put up a number of ads at the bus shelters in my area for months. I made a mental note, tried it a few times. Found it clean, reliable, etc., and thought you can take this on days you want to switch it up or want to sleep in a bit later.

I'm not a transit enthusiast in that I'm going to be out there saying YEAH, everyone LOVES transit. Far from it. I'm very pragmatic and realistic. I just know what the trends are and understand those riders that are looking for alternatives, and there are a lot of them. What I will say is MNRR has done the best job of getting that new young rider. That is their future base. They know it, and their service pre-pandemic was moving in that direction. 

https://techcrunch.com/2016/05/19/pew-study-finds-younger-adults-driving-growth-of-ride-hailing-apps/?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAADgCYiYWAjod6IxQrqXTaDMIGoTanHL7omPV3AshhMHeV2MoptFLQZTFZVPE3OECnqL1hdIYeC5SWXY5Z60CTGpF56bQhm2IL4tV9EY3TxR0mYJQxCP8la9j-ZRG7_xQJhefQr1Dtcb57IwuH0M-gnZ89bSN2DNmwgeB4tWYlOmF

The  isn't as dumb as we think. They study demographics a lot. Whether or not they always make the best decisions is another matter.

[JAzumah]

7 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

The  isn't as dumb as we think. They study demographics a lot. Whether or not they always make the best decisions is another matter.

The MTA has a lot of dummies, but some agencies are smarter than others. I find that Metro-North is the BEST agency that the MTA has. They are very well-run and don't run themselves like a welfare transportation agency. There are smart people at NYCT, but they need our help to chip away the stodgy thinking from the outside.

If MNR had marketed the X25, it would still be there. The problem is that it was NYCT's bus and they do not feel like they have to entice people to use their services. On the other hand, Metro-North understands that it does and they try to expand their footprint as much as possible. This is why they do a good job of marketing Hudson Rail Link. People who don't ride buses ride Hudson Rail Link. Transit fans can be "modalist". Actual users can be convinced NOT to be modalist as long as you make the process seamless or simple. People want to get from Point A to Point B quickly and comfortably. 

If the city doesn't make an effort to get the subway "ambiance" under control, I can assure you that there will be options for people who do not want to ride the subways not to ride them in September. The MTA merged their transit police division into the NYPD a long time ago and we need the police on the trains ensuring that the trains are used for transportation. If they can't do that, then the commuter railroads will end up supporting alternative options that keep people on their trains, but off the subways.

[B35 via Church]

43 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

If they are local buses yes... But we're talking about NYC. I don't think such a route would ever flourish either, but you'd get decent usage if better marketed and re-structured. Scale back the number of trips a bit, and the line would've been ok. I'm really talking about those taxi, Uber or car types that you could get. If they're getting a car, they are the type that would perhaps consider an express bus depending on the marketing (consider the key word). I know we have a lot of subway fans in here, but there are a number of people that absolutely hate the subways, and I am finding increasingly that more people are gravitating towards either driving or taking Uber, my point being that there's market out there for those that want alternatives to the subway. I'm not saying that is an express bus per se, but again, all depends on how you market it. When I moved to Riverdale years ago, I had no intention of using Metro-North. It was "out of the way" for me, even if I could walk or drive to it. It was the  's marketing that got me using not only just occasionally, but then becoming a monthly rider to boot. I would've never thought I would be buying monthly passes on that thing. They put up a number of ads at the bus shelters in my area for months. I made a mental note, tried it a few times. Found it clean, reliable, etc., and thought you can take this on days you want to switch it up or want to sleep in a bit later.

I'm not a transit enthusiast in that I'm going to be out there saying YEAH, everyone LOVES transit. Far from it. I'm very pragmatic and realistic. I just know what the trends are and understand those riders that are looking for alternatives, and there are a lot of them. What I will say is MNRR has done the best job of getting that new young rider. That is their future base. They know it, and their service pre-pandemic was moving in that direction. 

https://techcrunch.com/2016/05/19/pew-study-finds-younger-adults-driving-growth-of-ride-hailing-apps/?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAADgCYiYWAjod6IxQrqXTaDMIGoTanHL7omPV3AshhMHeV2MoptFLQZTFZVPE3OECnqL1hdIYeC5SWXY5Z60CTGpF56bQhm2IL4tV9EY3TxR0mYJQxCP8la9j-ZRG7_xQJhefQr1Dtcb57IwuH0M-gnZ89bSN2DNmwgeB4tWYlOmF

The  isn't as dumb as we think. They study demographics a lot. Whether or not they always make the best decisions is another matter.

Express buses fall into that category just as much as local buses & subways do, when we're talking about RR commuters not wanting to xfer.... Yeah, people in the suburbs will consider an express bus before a local bus, but the masses won't consider (especially primarily) any sort of bus service (express or local) if they have a nearby rail option that comes the closest to fulfilling their commuting needs.... As a bus enthusiast, it's simply a realization that I've come to & no amount of fanaticism or advocacy of the bus is going to thwart or otherwise change that....

Where we appear to be differing (outside of the belief/hope that better advertising would've notably helped the x25 in-particular & what not) is that I'm not losing sleep over people that decided to vote with their feet.... I'm not interested in dragging grown adults into utilizing *this* mode over *that* mode, or taking public transit over taking the personal vehicle/rideshare service (or vice versa)...... That is a problem that the MTA caused & it's a problem they're going to have to come up with some sort of solution to, if they're TRULY serious about fulfilling people's commuting needs in this city as best as they can.... Which is the issue AFAIC - they're not "all in" when it comes to such a mission.... Which is where I tend to butt heads with the super-hyper-mega-ultra kool-aid drinking pro transit folks.....

To that last statement there, the claim isn't so much that the MTA is dumb (although as @JAzumah just conveyed, there are plenty of idiots & imbeciles festering within the agency), as much as it that they feign it to support their selfish interests.... Public transportation apparently is & may as well be an ironic misnomer to them...

21 minutes ago, JAzumah said:

I find that Metro-North is the BEST agency that the MTA has...

Significantly.

Edited March 28, 2021 by B35 via Church

[Via Garibaldi 8]

35 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

Express buses fall into that category just as much as local buses & subways do, when we're talking about RR commuters not wanting to xfer.... Yeah, people in the suburbs will consider an express bus before a local bus, but the masses won't consider (especially primarily) any sort of bus service (express or local) if they have a nearby rail option that comes the closest to fulfilling their commuting needs.... As a bus enthusiast, it's simply a realization that I've come to & no amount of fanaticism or advocacy of the bus is going to thwart or otherwise change that....

Where we appear to be differing (outside of the belief/hope that better advertising would've notably helped the x25 in-particular & what not) is that I'm not losing sleep over people that decided to vote with their feet.... I'm not interested in dragging grown adults into utilizing *this* mode over *that* mode, or taking public transit over taking the personal vehicle/rideshare service (or vice versa)...... That is a problem that the MTA caused & it's a problem they're going to have to come up with some sort of solution to, if they're TRULY serious about fulfilling people's commuting needs in this city as best as they can.... Which is the issue AFAIC - they're not "all in" when it comes to such a mission.... Which is where I tend to butt heads with the super-hyper-mega-ultra kool-aid drinking pro transit folks.....

To that last statement there, the claim isn't so much that the MTA is dumb (although as @JAzumah just conveyed, there are plenty of idiots & imbeciles festering within the agency), as much as it that they feign it to support their selfish interests.... Public transportation apparently is & may as well be an ironic misnomer to them...

Significantly.

Yeah, but express buses aren't for the masses per se. The X25 was never going to be some sort of line with buses packed to the rafters, but it could've been much better than it was. That's my only point. Even if the bus got 30 passengers or so that would've been fine. I'm not a bus enthusiast either. I'm a person that likes comfort. That's why I like the express bus over say Metro-North, and definitely over the subway because the express bus is comfortable. The seats are not that comfortable on Metro-North, BUT I do like the fact that it is clean and overall usually not packed if I stick to certain trips. In fact comfort is the main reason I don't use Metro-North more. In all of the years I've used it, that is my biggest complaint. The seats kill my back, and when you paying a premium fare, I expect comfort. That is why I select Uber over the local bus. I like comfort. 

45 minutes ago, JAzumah said:

The MTA has a lot of dummies, but some agencies are smarter than others. I find that Metro-North is the BEST agency that the MTA has. They are very well-run and don't run themselves like a welfare transportation agency. There are smart people at NYCT, but they need our help to chip away the stodgy thinking from the outside.

If MNR had marketed the X25, it would still be there. The problem is that it was NYCT's bus and they do not feel like they have to entice people to use their services. On the other hand, Metro-North understands that it does and they try to expand their footprint as much as possible. This is why they do a good job of marketing Hudson Rail Link. People who don't ride buses ride Hudson Rail Link. Transit fans can be "modalist". Actual users can be convinced NOT to be modalist as long as you make the process seamless or simple. People want to get from Point A to Point B quickly and comfortably. 

If the city doesn't make an effort to get the subway "ambiance" under control, I can assure you that there will be options for people who do not want to ride the subways not to ride them in September. The MTA merged their transit police division into the NYPD a long time ago and we need the police on the trains ensuring that the trains are used for transportation. If they can't do that, then the commuter railroads will end up supporting alternative options that keep people on their trains, but off the subways.

I agree with you 100% on all points.

[JAzumah]

36 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

Where we appear to be differing (outside of the belief/hope that better advertising would've notably helped the x25 in-particular & what not) is that I'm not losing sleep over people that decided to vote with their feet.... I'm not interested in dragging grown adults into utilizing *this* mode over *that* mode, or taking public transit over taking the personal vehicle/rideshare service (or vice versa)...... That is a problem that the MTA caused & it's a problem they're going to have to come up with some sort of solution to, if they're TRULY serious about fulfilling people's commuting needs in this city as best as they can.... Which is the issue AFAIC - they're not "all in" when it comes to such a mission.... Which is where I tend to butt heads with the super-hyper-mega-ultra kool-aid drinking pro transit folks.....

DING DING DING!

You can't "force" people to use transit. You can withdraw all car subsidies and see where things fall, but you aren't going to force people to use transit. Instead, offer transit that is appealing, reliable, and reasonably affordable. The car is an important part of the transportation system and we had better hope that no one changes that too radically or they might trigger an economic collapse. Most of what we eat and wear is delivered by various types of cars and trucks and I don't think people can afford the results of breaking that system.

[B35 via Church]

41 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Yeah, but express buses aren't for the masses per se. The X25 was never going to be some sort of line with buses packed to the rafters, but it could've been much better than it was. That's my only point. Even if the bus got 30 passengers or so that would've been fine. I'm not a bus enthusiast either. I'm a person that likes comfort. That's why I like the express bus over say Metro-North, and definitely over the subway because the express bus is comfortable. The seats are not that comfortable on Metro-North, BUT I do like the fact that it is clean and overall usually not packed if I stick to certain trips. In fact comfort is the main reason I don't use Metro-North more. In all of the years I've used it, that is my biggest complaint. The seats kill my back, and when you paying a premium fare, I expect comfort. That is why I select Uber over the local bus. I like comfort.

The thing didn't come remotely close to 30 passengers per trip, for the few trips per day that it had.... That's the problem here.... What you're exemplifying/describing with that is more akin to the QM3 (few trips, but significant enough an amount of riders per trip), which is why I say they may as well keep that route around..... That's fine that you're a fan of comfort or whatever, but the fact of the matter is that keeping the thing (x25) running around with so few people utilizing it is just flat out wasteful - and that was my main point from the beginning.... I'm not going to bother commencing crying over spilled milk with that particular route because of what type of mode it was & how comfortable that mode is over other modes.... Enough people should have been using it from jump.

46 minutes ago, JAzumah said:

DING DING DING!

You can't "force" people to use transit. You can withdraw all car subsidies and see where things fall, but you aren't going to force people to use transit. Instead, offer transit that is appealing, reliable, and reasonably affordable. The car is an important part of the transportation system and we had better hope that no one changes that too radically or they might trigger an economic collapse. Most of what we eat and wear is delivered by various types of cars and trucks and I don't think people can afford the results of breaking that system.

It's one thing to advocate for keeping something around b/c of its usefulness for way more people other than yourself... It's another thing to try to deebo (or passively-aggressively coerce) people into considering something over something else.... The latter is where I have a serious problem with the staunch pro-car folks..... If someone has to try to sabotage or otherwise denigrate an opposing option, that's not going to necessarily make the option that you favor more appealing to somebody else; making it some sort of juvenile competition or something, IDC about that...... Let people decide for themselves what's best for them.... I'm not a salesman, a faux salesman, and don't plan on ever becoming either....

[Via Garibaldi 8]

18 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

The thing didn't come remotely close to 30 passengers per trip, for the few trips per day that it had.... That's the problem here.... What you're exemplifying/describing with that is more akin to the QM3 (few trips, but significant enough an amount of riders per trip), which is why I say they may as well keep that route around..... That's fine that you're a fan of comfort or whatever, but the fact of the matter is that keeping the thing (x25) running around with so few people utilizing it is just flat out wasteful - and that was my main point from the beginning.... I'm not going to bother commencing crying over spilled milk with that particular route because of what type of mode it was & how comfortable that mode is over other modes.... Enough people should have been using it from jump.

It's one thing to advocate for keeping something around b/c of its usefulness for way more people other than yourself... It's another thing to try to deebo (or passively-aggressively coerce) people into considering something over something else.... The latter is where I have a serious problem with the staunch pro-car folks..... If someone has to try to sabotage or otherwise denigrate an opposing option, that's not going to necessarily make the option that you favor more appealing to somebody else; making it some sort of juvenile competition or something, IDC about that...... Let people decide for themselves what's best for them.... I'm not a salesman, a faux salesman, and don't plan on ever becoming either....

Yeah, and I'm not really sure how much more people you could get to bring down costs either, esp. the morning trips. Something to keep in mind though is those were trips that started in Brooklyn, ended in Manhattan and then the driver did a few trips in the City, so the route itself was expensive, but still better than having those buses deadhead back and forth empty. I do know that some X27 trips and X28 trips do several Downtown trips, but have to deadhead back and forth from Brooklyn with no passengers.

As for the other comment about cars, I am not anti-car. Far from it. I think cars have their place in the City, just as everything else. I do a number of trips by car now, and I don't see that number decreasing either. My concern however is will we have so many cars that the balance is thrown off, and fewer people can get around the City efficiently and quickly. I think that's where the anti-car people come in at, but they're at the extreme end of things in that they want everyone using public transit, especially local buses and subways. I think everything has its place... Cars, railroads, ferries, express buses, local buses, subways, etc. Let people use what works for them, but overall, NYC cannot function efficiently if you have more and more people driving. Let's face it though, for many car drivers, it's about comfort as well as in convenience, so in order for transit to be viable for more people, it too needs to be comfortable and convenient.

Edited March 28, 2021 by Via Garibaldi 8

[B35 via Church]

1 hour ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Yeah, and I'm not really sure how much more people you could get to bring down costs either, esp. the morning trips. Something to keep in mind though is those were trips that started in Brooklyn, ended in Manhattan and then the driver did a few trips in the City, so the route itself was expensive, but still better than having those buses deadhead back and forth empty. I do know that some X27 trips and X28 trips do several Downtown trips, but have to deadhead back and forth from Brooklyn with no passengers.

Yeah, and the whole mismanagement of the route (x25 running out of Ulmer Park thing) had little-to-nothing to do with the fact that enough people didn't patronize it.... It all goes back to that basic point....

1 hour ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

As for the other comment about cars, I am not anti-car. Far from it. I think cars have their place in the City, just as everything else. I do a number of trips by car now, and I don't see that number decreasing either. My concern however is will we have so many cars that the balance is thrown off, and fewer people can get around the City efficiently and quickly. I think that's where the anti-car people come in at, but they're at the extreme end of things in that they want everyone using public transit, especially local buses and subways. I think everything has its place... Cars, railroads, ferries, express buses, local buses, subways, etc. Let people use what works for them, but overall, NYC cannot function efficiently if you have more and more people driving. Let's face it though, for many car drivers, it's about comfort as well as in convenience, so in order for transit to be viable for more people, it too needs to be comfortable and convenient.

For starters, I was not talking about you when I mentioned staunch pro-car folks, nor was I insinuating you were anti-car, so let's dead that right here & now.... You don't necessarily strike me as an anti-car person.

To your other point{s} at hand here, well there's already a stark imbalance in the number of cars roaming around & about this city & as long as you have a public transportation agency that apparently views the riding public as expendable, continuing to go about doing whatever the f*** it is that they want, you're going to "drive" more people away from taking mass transit.... Driving to work everyday, I don't for a second sit amongst myself & go "man, I sure do wish there were less cars on the road" because I understand the plights of anyone not wanting to deal with the f*** shit that the MTA has/does put people though.... People are human & people have breaking points & I'm not one to utopically wish upon a star that more people resort to using public transit than not..... I say utopically because those very staunch pro-transit people you speak of that go way left with the shit, want NO cars on the roads.... Stupid shit.

To sum it up, the concern you state that you have, isn't as much of a concern to me.... In terms of public transit, this city's going to be way more subway-centric over that of being bus-centric regardless....

Edited March 28, 2021 by B35 via Church

[Deucey]

Can someone help me understand why folks would choose X25 over just taking the Lex to Wall St or BG - the bus is ~20-30 minutes ideally, and the Lex Express is 10-15?

I’ll tell what else I don’t get - since this whole discussion here began:

Why are express buses under  or  Bus instead of the railroads? Go with me here:

• Express Buses (EBs) are designed to get people with longer commutes to CBDs faster - like the railroads

• EBs have a different fare structure than local buses, but have to share resources with them - which holds back both services in ways 

• EBs subsidies make limited limited stops - akin to railroads outside core NYC

So why not merge EBs in with a new department -  Regional or Commuter, include the railroads with MNRR leadership leading it, and operate the EBs like rail services - as first/last mile connectors like HudsonLink or the old X25, and as rail branches/mainlines to CBDs, PABT, or cross-boro services (ie Q to Bx)?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

19 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

Yeah, and the whole mismanagement of the route (x25 running out of Ulmer Park thing) had little-to-nothing to do with the fact that enough people didn't patronize it.... It all goes back to that basic point....

For starters, I was not talking about you when I mentioned staunch pro-car folks, nor was I insinuating you were anti-car, so let's dead that right here & now.... You don't necessarily strike me as an anti-car person.

To your other point{s} at hand here, well there's already a stark imbalance in the number of cars roaming around & about this city & as long as you have a public transportation agency that apparently views the riding public as expendable, continuing to go about doing whatever the f*** it is that they want, you're going to "drive" more people away from taking mass transit.... Driving to work everyday, I don't for a second sit amongst myself & go "man, I sure do wish there were less cars on the road" because I understand the plights of anyone not wanting to deal with the f*** shit that the MTA has/does put people though.... People are human & people have breaking points & I'm not one to utopically wish upon a star that more people resort to using public transit than not..... I say utopically because those very staunch pro-transit people you speak of that go way left with the shit, want NO cars on the roads.... Stupid shit.

To sum it up, the concern you state that you have, isn't as much of a concern to me.... In terms of public transit, this city's going to be way more subway-centric over that of being bus-centric regardless....

I think your last point is more of a demographic shift too. It seems like that's the case esp. with the local buses. Those that have the option to drive are. My boss is like that. Doesn't take the subway at all, but will take the local bus down to the office. However, for everything else, it's the car. lol

[Via Garibaldi 8]

18 minutes ago, Deucey said:

1. Can someone help me understand why folks would choose X25 over just taking the Lex to Wall St or BG - the bus is ~20-30 minutes ideally, and the Lex Express is 10-15?

2. I’ll tell what else I don’t get - since this whole discussion here began:

Why are express buses under  or  Bus instead of the railroads? Go with me here:

• Express Buses (EBs) are designed to get people with longer commutes to CBDs faster - like the railroads

• EBs have a different fare structure than local buses, but have to share resources with them - which holds back both services in ways 

• EBs subsidies make limited limited stops - akin to railroads outside core NYC

So why not merge EBs in with a new department -  Regional or Commuter, include the railroads with MNRR leadership leading it, and operate the EBs like rail services - as first/last mile connectors like HudsonLink or the old X25, and as rail branches/mainlines to CBDs, PABT, or cross-boro services (ie Q to Bx)?

1. Simple... Some of us don't mind using public transit, BUT we don't want to ride on a packed train. The express bus is a more relaxing ride, even if in this case it took longer. When I'm coming back to my office from a meeting Downtown, I want to have some down time. You are not going to get that on the subway, so I would take the X25 if I was near a stop, or today what I do is grab an Uber. Much nicer ride, as opposed to a packed train. Also no stairs to deal with either. Only recently have I thought about what a pain in the @ss some subway trips are. For me anyway, some subway trips involve backtracking in that I have to walk east or west, get the train, then walk back east or west to my destination. Subways can be fast, but not always the most convenient.

2. You have to remember that many express buses were run by private lines previously. I spoke with one of the ladies that helped to start express bus service in Riverdale for example. Originally the  did not want to deal with express bus service, so you had private lines run the service. Many neighborhoods felt at a disadvantage because they were far from the subway, not to mention having to pay two fares, as opposed to one fare for people in subway areas. That's really how the express bus came about. Since you were in a two fare zone, you could pay a tad more and get a more direct, faster ride. That also made those neighborhoods more attractive. The problem now is the express bus costs have skyrocketed as the price has gone up substantially. When the fares were lower, you had packed buses on a number of lines, and that was a no brainer, since it wasn't almost three times the cost of a subway ride today.

I don't think it's the worst idea to be honest. Express buses ARE commuter buses, just like commuter rails, so they are not structured to have a high turnover ratio like local buses, but rather your commuter going to and from Manhattan.

Edited March 28, 2021 by Via Garibaldi 8

[B35 via Church]

3 minutes ago, Deucey said:

Can someone help me understand why folks would choose X25 over just taking the Lex to Wall St or BG - the bus is ~20-30 minutes ideally, and the Lex Express is 10-15?

You mean over just taking the Lex to [City Hall] or [Fulton st]; the x25 didn't run south of Park Row, east of BPC.... Anyway, the folks that took it, likely did so for reasons VG8 stated earlier; the whole comfortability aspect.... Can't really blame them for it.

That's another thing with the x25, now that you mention it.... Of the times I've taken it, the ride was never half an hour... An hour & some schillings more often than not.... 45 mins. minimum.

2 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I think your last point is more of a demographic shift too. It seems like that's the case esp. with the local buses. Those that have the option to drive are. My boss is like that. Doesn't take the subway at all, but will take the local bus down to the office. However, for everything else, it's the car. lol

I'm not exactly sure I follow.... Are you conveying that express bus riders (that also have licenses/cars) are less likely to consider driving than those that have gotten fed up with local buses? If so, interesting point.....

With what you're describing your boss as like, the difference b/w me & [him/her] is that I use the car less.... If I ever get to the point where I have zero use for public transit in this city, I'm out of here....

[Via Garibaldi 8]

18 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

I'm not exactly sure I follow.... Are you conveying that express bus riders (that also have licenses/cars) are less likely to consider driving than those that have gotten fed up with local buses? If so, interesting point.....

With what you're describing your boss as like, the difference b/w me & [him/her] is that I use the car less.... If I ever get to the point where I have zero use for public transit in this city, I'm out of here....

There are some people in general that have cars that use them on occasion, but they have no problem taking public transportation. There are a number of riders like that in my group. It's just more convenient to take public transit to the office. That was my point about my boss. She could certainly drive down, but she prefers to take the bus. Meanwhile, in my old office, a number of the principals drove in from Greenwich, Staten Island, Jersey and Long Island. They wouldn't be caught dead on any form of public transportation. I think we are seeing that now too. There's less of an in between. More people are either into the cars entirely or take public transit entirely. Me, I do use a car with growing frequency, but I am fine taking the express bus or MNRR or walking even depending on my mood. 

Edited March 28, 2021 by Via Garibaldi 8

[Deucey]

31 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I don't think it's the worst idea to be honest. Express buses ARE commuter buses, just like commuter rails, so they are not structured to have a high turnover ratio like local buses, but rather your commuter going to and from Manhattan

It just makes more sense to me - mindset-wise.

It’s not like elsewhere where express buses were faster local buses - in NY they were private services filling a need / wasn’t meeting - like Conrail was until NYS bought trackage in the Conrail breakup - and like Conrail’s predecessors were.

Based on the activities I see you, your group, and your peers are undertaking, EBs aren’t meeting the need as well as they could/should/need - since they’re sharing resources with local buses. So if they can’t be privatized again because DOT has policy and ideology, why not have the railroads run and subsidize them out of MNRR and LIRR budgets, and operate them as commuter services instead of “not SBS or local bus services”?

Similar mindsets as commuter/non-local travel might improve things more than  “fitting it in”. Could even result in better air quality and economic expansion by creating services that get Upstaters on MNRR to EBs taking them to NJ job centers - and reducing traffic on bridges and highways.

[B35 via Church]

29 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

There are some people in general that have cars that use them on occasion, but they have no problem taking public transportation. There are a number of riders like that in my group. It's just more convenient to take public transit to the office. That was my point about my boss. She could certainly drive down, but she prefers to take the bus. Meanwhile, in my old office, a number of the principals drove in from Greenwich, Staten Island, Jersey and Long Island. They wouldn't be caught dead on any form of public transportation. I think we are seeing that now too. There's less of an in between. More people are either into the cars entirely or take public transit entirely. Me, I do use a car with growing frequency, but I am fine taking the express bus or MNRR or walking even depending on my mood. 

Suburbanites that wouldn't be caught dead using mass transit were always apparent.... The trend that's tipping the scale to where it's less of an in-between (to where people are entirely utilizing one or the other) is the amount of commuters ditching mass transit for other means/methods in getting around.... For whatever their range of reasons are....

The state of mass transit across the board is on a decline... Case in point, just last night I read an article regarding SEPTA & how ridership is down 70% overall (as in, cumulatively; all modes).... What's one to do when there's a growing amount of the very workers that operate these buses & trains in that particular city (Philly) that feel unsafe doing their jobs.... Then you have these trendy network redesigns in some of these cities in this country that are being put out on the forefront (which are nothing more than masqueraded cuts)... What I'm getting at here is that there's going to be even more of a stark imbalance between [those that refuse to bother with mass transit] & [those that "have to" take mass transit]....

This is segueing to a class discussion, so I'll stop here....

[QM1to6Ave]

3 hours ago, Deucey said:

Can someone help me understand why folks would choose X25 over just taking the Lex to Wall St or BG - the bus is ~20-30 minutes ideally, and the Lex Express is 10-15?

I’ll tell what else I don’t get - since this whole discussion here began:

Why are express buses under  or  Bus instead of the railroads? Go with me here:

• Express Buses (EBs) are designed to get people with longer commutes to CBDs faster - like the railroads

• EBs have a different fare structure than local buses, but have to share resources with them - which holds back both services in ways 

• EBs subsidies make limited limited stops - akin to railroads outside core NYC

So why not merge EBs in with a new department -  Regional or Commuter, include the railroads with MNRR leadership leading it, and operate the EBs like rail services - as first/last mile connectors like HudsonLink or the old X25, and as rail branches/mainlines to CBDs, PABT, or cross-boro services (ie Q to Bx)?

I'm sure the unions would fight tooth and nail against any sort of merger, even if it was purely an administrative merger

[checkmatechamp13]

8 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Scale back the number of trips a bit, and the line would've been ok. 

The line had 4 trips each way by the time it was eliminated. They pretty much did just that...scaled it right back into oblivion...

21 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Thing is though, it never went to South Ferry; it only ran to BPC (WFC in-particular)..... Aside from that, this is more speaking to transforming the route, more than anything involving lackadaisical advertising of the old x25....

I have to double-check some old maps, but I know there were a few renditions of the X25 in terms of which portions of Downtown it served. (I know at one point in the early 1990s it pretty much ran like the current X27/28 except it terminated at GCT instead of 57th & Madison). It also ran more frequently (every 10-15 minutes as opposed to every 30 minutes by the time it was eliminated in 2010). I think another rendition was that it swung around Water Street/State Street to reach the WFC (this might've been shortly after 9/11), though obviously the 2010 version had it doing something similar to the M22 in Lower Manhattan.

Also, what do you mean by having it run to the UES? Something along the lines of the old X92?

[R10 2952]

@B35 via Church@Via Garibaldi 8@JAzumah To me, the express buses became a lot less useful once Vision Zero kicked in.  The expansion of pedestrian plazas, deliberate mistiming of traffic lights, lowering of the speed limit to 25 miles per hour even on major arteries like Queens Boulevard, and the overall attempts to artificially induce gridlock have largely stifled the utility many of these routes used to have.

More generally, I am neither pro nor anti car- I just don't like it when a mayor and his career bureaucrats think they can arbitrarily impose their ideology upon the rest of us.  Doesn't matter to me what side of the political aisle they stand on.  Had their initiatives been presented directly to the voters as referendums, I doubt even half of them would have passed.  Something like congestion pricing would never have gotten off the ground in NYC had it been a ballot measure.

Edited March 29, 2021 by R10 2952

[B35 via Church]

2 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

I have to double-check some old maps, but I know there were a few renditions of the X25 in terms of which portions of Downtown it served. (I know at one point in the early 1990s it pretty much ran like the current X27/28 except it terminated at GCT instead of 57th & Madison). It also ran more frequently (every 10-15 minutes as opposed to every 30 minutes by the time it was eliminated in 2010). I think another rendition was that it swung around Water Street/State Street to reach the WFC (this might've been shortly after 9/11), though obviously the 2010 version had it doing something similar to the M22 in Lower Manhattan.

Also, what do you mean by having it run to the UES? Something along the lines of the old X92?

Upper East Side/Yorkville, where the x90/92 used to terminate....

[Deucey]

29 minutes ago, R10 2952 said:

I just don't like it when a mayor and his career bureaucrats think they can arbitrarily impose their ideology upon the rest of us.

This is literally what’s supposed to happen after winning elections.

 

[R10 2952]

36 minutes ago, Deucey said:

This is literally what’s supposed to happen after winning elections.

Easy to claim without knowing the context; to put it in perspective I'll give an example- term limits in NYC.

Term limits were approved by voter referendum in 1993 and 1996.  In 2009 however, Bloomberg and other term-limited officials used the recession as a convenient excuse to override the limits and give themselves a third term.  Voters were pissed.  Bloomberg only got re-elected because his main opponent was completely incompetent, and a year later in 2010 a voter referendum to reinstate term limits passed by 73 percent.

That's where I'm coming from on this.  My point being that large, potentially-controversial issues at the local level need to be decided by the voters themselves, and not some narcissists who win a glorified popularity contest every four years.

Edited March 29, 2021 by R10 2952

[QM1to6Ave]

7 minutes ago, R10 2952 said:

Easy to claim without knowing the context; to put it in perspective I'll give an example- term limits in NYC.

Term limits were approved by voter referendum in 1993 and 1996.  In 2009 however, Bloomberg and other term-limited officials used the recession as a convenient excuse to override the limits and give themselves a third term.  Voters were pissed.  Bloomberg only got re-elected because his main opponent was completely incompetent, and a year later in 2010 a voter referendum to reinstate term limits passed by 73 percent.

My point being that large, potentially-controversial issues at the local level need to be decided by the voters themselves, and not some narcissists who win a glorified popularity contest every four years.

Not to get too off topic, but I found Bill Thompson to be a practical, middle of the road politician with a good background (and I voted for him that year, as did a darn high number of other voters)