Jump to content

New York City’s Congestion Pricing Plan Can Move Forward, Feds Say


Recommended Posts

New York City’s Congestion Pricing Plan Can Move Forward, Feds Say

By CBS NewYork Team March 30, 2021 at 4:28 pm

Filed Under:Congestion pricing, Local TV, New York

GettyImages-1308049397.jpg?w=1500&cfs=1&

 

NEW YORK (CBSNewYork) – New York City has gotten the green light to move forward with the next step for congestion pricing.

The U.S. Department of Transportation is allowing New York to begin its federally required environmental assessment of congestion pricing.

As CBS2’s Dave Carlin reports, for years it didn’t seem to matter that this plan was approved. There were roadblocks of red tape.

Those roadblocks have just been cleared by the feds: Congestion Pricing back on the move.

It’s kicking into high gear after years of stagnation after the federal government relaxed a required environmental assessment, making it less intensive and quicker.

That means a faster path is cleared to charge drivers with tolls south of Manhattan’s 60th street. Tolls are designed to raise $1 billion per year, allowing the MTA to use the money to secure bonds – around $15 billion in loans for MTA capital improvements – to create a better transit system and a less polluted New York City.

“We need congestion pricing. We need to make sure we have the resources to bring back the subways and buses strong,” said Mayor Bill de Blasio.

MTA officials are so happy over the removal of what was seen as the Trump era logjam by the Biden administration they released a video on social media.

NEWS: @USDOT just cleared a major roadblock for our first-in-the-nation congestion pricing program.

We're a major step closer to accelerating our climate goals and securing the funding needed for our historic $51.5B capital plan, giving all New Yorkers the system they deserve. pic.twitter.com/GJsePXAboK

— MTA. Wear a Mask. Stop the Spread. (@MTA) March 30, 2021

The video named both President Joe Biden and Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg, and thanked them.

Not happy, though, are some drivers. They’re irritated because they’ll have to pay big, unless they change travel routes or habits, or qualify for exemptions – whatever those turn out to be.

In towns outside the city this is widely viewed as an unfair tax.

Getting the answers drivers need will be up to a separate panel – figuring out the tolls, which were previously estimated to run $10-15 on top of existing tolls – plus who, if anyone, will be exempt.

It won’t be much longer predicted MTA Chairman and CEO Pat Foye, promising to fast track the review and public input.

“We are already working on preliminary design for the roadway toll system and infrastructure,” Foye said.

“London, Singapore and Milan have similar tolls. Now other American cities will be watching how New York handles this.

Public outreach is also a requirement of the program.

“Congestion pricing is an internationally proven method to reduce traffic congestion, enhance the availability and reliability of public transportation, and improve our air quality, and it will play a critical role as New York and the nation begin to recover from the pandemic and build back stronger and better than before. This advancement is also another step forward in generating the $15 billion the state needs to fund the MTA’s five-year $51.5 billion capital plan, which will transform the accessibility, reliability and convenience of the system for users of all ages and abilities,” Cuomo said.

Source: https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2021/03/30/nyc-congestion-pricing/?fbclid=IwAR0N0jDVES8f2bvtze-rPtu9nVp4RimoMEDZL5NwCuqf5iIDMAKzDq_uZJI#.YGNnVuzzmxk.facebook

Link to comment
Share on other sites


2 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

I like congestion pricing. But without actual cost control we're going to be doing the same song and dance about some other kind of funding Hail Mary in 5 years.

Remember when the payroll tax was supposed to solve all the MTA's funding problems?

Then there's the other thing that goes with it: what if it's successful?

Kinda like how tobacco taxes were to fund Medicaid programs, and they were flush with cash until the number of smokers dropped and caused Medicaid programs to run deficits and then get cut.

Soon as folks stop driving below 59th St...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Deucey said:

Then there's the other thing that goes with it: what if it's successful?

Kinda like how tobacco taxes were to fund Medicaid programs, and they were flush with cash until the number of smokers dropped and caused Medicaid programs to run deficits and then get cut.

Soon as folks stop driving below 59th St...

TfL has raised congestion charge since introduction from 10 to 15 pounds over time. (At least part of that is inflation over 16 years.) TfL has also expanded (and rolled back) the geographical zone. And they have expanded to include additional charges to vehicles not meeting a high emissions standard, but that mostly has to do with the fact that London's air pollution is very bad.

The difference with us and them is that TfL didn't use it to fill a finances gap, they directly linked it to bus lanes and bus services, which dulled the pain. NYC's 2007 plan had provisions like this but not the current incarnation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, bobtehpanda said:

TfL has raised congestion charge since introduction from 10 to 15 pounds over time. (At least part of that is inflation over 16 years.) TfL has also expanded (and rolled back) the geographical zone. And they have expanded to include additional charges to vehicles not meeting a high emissions standard, but that mostly has to do with the fact that London's air pollution is very bad.

The difference with us and them is that TfL didn't use it to fill a finances gap, they directly linked it to bus lanes and bus services, which dulled the pain. NYC's 2007 plan had provisions like this but not the current incarnation.

At least here in New York, the politicians propagating congestion pricing have made it clear that it's purely about extorting money, rather than actually being for congestion and emissions purposes. So we know not to expect any actual transit improvements to be made alongside the program if it passes, unlike in London.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, Deucey said:

Then there's the other thing that goes with it: what if it's successful?

Kinda like how tobacco taxes were to fund Medicaid programs, and they were flush with cash until the number of smokers dropped and caused Medicaid programs to run deficits and then get cut.

Soon as folks stop driving below 59th St...

People won't stop driving. How many times have the tolls been increased? Numerous times. People bitch & moan and they pay them because God Forbid they use public transportation. There are some areas that have a legitimate gripe. However, I know quite a few people who drive simply because they find public transportation of all kinds beneath them. I was doing jury duty once. This lady said she couldn't come because she couldn't find parking. LOL The judge said, so you can take the subway down here. She looked at him like he had two heads. She later remarked among myself and another person that she hadn't used the subway in years and basically wouldn't be caught dead using public transit. LOL

In fact, what has happened is we have more cars on the road now. Transit ridership has been down, but car usage is almost back to normal, even with the pandemic.

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8
Link to comment
Share on other sites

we are not ready for this. we don't even have enough subway cars to properly do this. They only doing this to force people to take the subway and bus so they can collect more revenue due to low ridership. Our subway system isn't prepared for things like this neither.

 

Also this would cause delays in subway car retirement as well if they do this as soon as early next year.

Edited by R32 3838
Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

People won't stop driving. How many times have the tolls been increased? Numerous times. People bitch & moan and they pay them because God Forbid they use public transportation.

Yeah but shunpiking is a thing. So those LIers who aren't inclined to pay the congestion charge may take the BK Bridge to get on the FDR to go points north and west of the city.

And tolling the East River has history of failure just like SAS: https://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/11/11/how-east-river-bridges-have-stayed-toll-free/

And even if they go across TBTA bridges, since those folks are supposed to go down as the Congestion Charge is levied, that's (MTA) money but it's not that (MTA) money.

Which leads to the question of what happens to that deficit Congestion Charge is supposed to correct if the charge is successful and the amount of passenger vehicles below 60th St drops precipitously? 

Just like when the number of smokers dropped enough that tobacco taxes couldn't sustain Medicaid expansions, or when fuel economy increased enough that the Highway Trust Fund was paying out more than gas taxes were paying in.

That should be part of the discussion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

People won't stop driving. How many times have the tolls been increased? Numerous times. People bitch & moan and they pay them because God Forbid they use public transportation. There are some areas that have a legitimate gripe. However, I know quite a few people who drive simply because they find public transportation of all kinds beneath them. I was doing jury duty once. This lady said she couldn't come because she couldn't find parking. LOL The judge said, so you can take the subway down here. She looked at him like he had two heads. She later remarked among myself and another person that she hadn't used the subway in years and basically wouldn't be caught dead using public transit. LOL

In fact, what has happened is we have more cars on the road now. Transit ridership has been down, but car usage is almost back to normal, even with the pandemic.

This is at least possible because unless you're coming from NJ there are non-toll crossings.

Part of the plan is to just plug the holes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Deucey said:

Yeah but shunpiking is a thing. So those LIers who aren't inclined to pay the congestion charge may take the BK Bridge to get on the FDR to go points north and west of the city.

And tolling the East River has history of failure just like SAS: https://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/11/11/how-east-river-bridges-have-stayed-toll-free/

And even if they go across TBTA bridges, since those folks are supposed to go down as the Congestion Charge is levied, that's (MTA) money but it's not that (MTA) money.

Which leads to the question of what happens to that deficit Congestion Charge is supposed to correct if the charge is successful and the amount of passenger vehicles below 60th St drops precipitously? 

Just like when the number of smokers dropped enough that tobacco taxes couldn't sustain Medicaid expansions, or when fuel economy increased enough that the Highway Trust Fund was paying out more than gas taxes were paying in.

That should be part of the discussion.

Yeah that was then. This is now... https://brooklyneagle.com/articles/2019/04/01/congestion-pricing-brooklyn/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

People won't stop driving. How many times have the tolls been increased? Numerous times. People bitch & moan and they pay them because God Forbid they use public transportation. There are some areas that have a legitimate gripe. However, I know quite a few people who drive simply because they find public transportation of all kinds beneath them. I was doing jury duty once. This lady said she couldn't come because she couldn't find parking. LOL The judge said, so you can take the subway down here. She looked at him like he had two heads. She later remarked among myself and another person that she hadn't used the subway in years and basically wouldn't be caught dead using public transit. LOL

In fact, what has happened is we have more cars on the road now. Transit ridership has been down, but car usage is almost back to normal, even with the pandemic.

It’s people like this who need to pay up. People who equate taking a train or bus to “Communism.” Sorry, driving is a privilege, not a right. Privilege is something you pay for. I really don’t feel sorry for these drivers. I see so much road traffic now, going back to summer. Of all the things about New York to made a comeback, it had to be the road traffic, didn’t it? And if congestion pricing isn’t the answer, then reinstate the commuter tax. Very short-sighted of Pataki to do away that. 

4 hours ago, R32 3838 said:

we are not ready for this. we don't even have enough subway cars to properly do this. They only doing this to force people to take the subway and bus so they can collect more revenue due to low ridership. Our subway system isn't prepared for things like this neither.

 

Also this would cause delays in subway car retirement as well if they do this as soon as early next year.

Why would it cause delays in retiring the R32, SI R44 and R46 cars? Semi conductor shortages are causing the delay in the R211 pilot train getting here, per your post in the R211 thread, no? Delivery of the new trains will play out depending on how well the pilot train does. That’s happening with or without congestion pricing. Where congestion pricing may help is to determine how many option R211s we can get, and whether or not we can get R262 cars sooner rather than later (as opposed to not at all).

Edited by T to Dyre Avenue
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, R32 3838 said:

we are not ready for this. we don't even have enough subway cars to properly do this. They only doing this to force people to take the subway and bus so they can collect more revenue due to low ridership. Our subway system isn't prepared for things like this neither.

 

Also this would cause delays in subway car retirement as well if they do this as soon as early next year.

No, we're ready for it. We have some people right on this forum that think service is fine. Why? Because they drive. Let them either pay more or use public transportation and then maybe if more people have to use it, we'll see better service. It's one thing to use public transportation to "fan". It's another to actually use it to get around, which is a big difference. Subway service has been horrendous for years, and what many people have done (myself included) is stopped using it and they take an Uber or drive. 

We have ferry service, express bus service, local bus service and rail road service in addition to subway service. If we keep service for these options, it will help alleviate the strain on subway service.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

58 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

It’s people like this who need to pay up. People who equate taking a train or bus to “Communism.” Sorry, driving is a privilege, not a right. Privilege is something you pay for. I really don’t feel sorry for these drivers. I see so much road traffic now, going back to summer. Of all the things about New York to made a comeback, it had to be the road traffic, didn’t it? And if congestion pricing isn’t the answer, then reinstate the commuter tax. Very short-sighted of Pataki to do away that. 

Why would it cause delays in retiring the R32, SI R44 and R46 cars? Semi conductor shortages are causing the delay in the R211 pilot train getting here, per your post in the R211 thread, no? Delivery of the new trains will play out depending on how well the pilot train does. That’s happening with or without congestion pricing. Where congestion pricing may help is to determine how many option R211s we can get, and whether or not we can get R262 cars sooner rather than later (as opposed to not at all).

 

R32's would be retired by the first 100 R211's and R44's will also be gone. When you have things like this, you have to make sure you have enough subway service to cover the uptick in ridership, this would require to keep more subway cars to maintain service. Congestion Pricing is gonna drive people to take the subway. We don't even have park and rides at terminals, Jamaica does have a decent amount of parking lots but that's starting to shrink due to these new building going up. Also if they do this, every 75 foot subway car needs to go meaning (MTA) has to order more R211's (3rd option order). 75 footers don't do well with crowds and have long dwell times.

15 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

No, we're ready for it. We have some people right on this forum that think service is fine. Why? Because they drive. Let them either pay more or use public transportation and then maybe if more people have to use it, we'll see better service. It's one thing to use public transportation to "fan". It's another to actually use it to get around, which is a big difference. Subway service has been horrendous for years, and what many people have done (myself included) is stopped using it and they take an Uber or drive. 

We have ferry service, express bus service, local bus service and rail road service in addition to subway service. If we keep service for these options, it will help alleviate the strain on subway service.

not everyone is going to take a bus or an uber. most people would take the LIRR or the subway. (MTA) has reduced and cut service on a chunk of bus lines.

 

I'm for congestion pricing, but with (MTA) 's current management, It will be a disaster and we all know this. if byford was in charge, He would have made this work. NYS just want to do this to extort more money from people and steal funds that are ment for (MTA).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, R32 3838 said:

not everyone is going to take a bus or an uber. most people would take the LIRR or the subway. (MTA) has reduced and cut service on a chunk of bus lines.

 

I'm for congestion pricing, but with (MTA) 's current management, It will be a disaster and we all know this. if byford was in charge, He would have made this work. NYS just want to do this to extort more money from people and steal funds that are ment for (MTA).

You obviously didn't get my sarcasm. We are a City that has accepted mediocre public transportation for years instead of being more vocal. That is the real problem, and even people that work at the (MTA) tell me nothing will change. I've said it for a long-time. I think (MTA) workers should also be forced to take public transportation. How is that we have so many (MTA) workers that DRIVE to work? I don't want to hear that BS about many of them not living in the City, because plenty of them live in the five boroughs. I think that's absurd. That's one thing I would change. You'd see service improve considerably that way alone. My uncle worked for the (MTA) for over 20 years and he commuted back and forth to the depots he worked at using public transportation. Keeps folks humble and they provide better customer service. He drove to work on occasion, but not every day.

The funds would be in a lock box, so they would be for transit only.

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8
Link to comment
Share on other sites

35 minutes ago, R32 3838 said:

they'll find a way to get into that lockbox, We are NY state at the end of the day, over taxing people and stealing funds for personal pet projects while people go broke or move out in droves.

If people were so broke, they wouldn't be driving and paying the tolls. Driving is not a necessity for most people in NYC. Shall we add up the expenses of having a car vs public transportation?

Monthly car payment (assuming you lease a car)

Tolls

Insurance

Maintenance

Let's say $500-600 a month vs $127 for a monthly Metrocard.

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

If people were so broke, they wouldn't be driving and paying the tolls. Driving is not a necessity for most people in NYC. Shall we add up the expenses of having a car vs public transportation?

Monthly car payment (assuming you lease a car)

Tolls

Insurance

Maintenance

Let's say $500-600 a month vs $127 for a monthly Metrocard.

That may be your setup, and there's nothing wrong with it if it suits you. But it certainly doesn't apply to everyone, especially if they are on a tighter budget.

- There's no reason to lease or finance a car unless you want something new; if you choose a used car right, it is a relatively inexpensive one-time payment.

- In terms of tolls, we have the Brooklyn, Manhattan, Williamsburg, and Queensboro bridges to avoid those (below the Triboro, anyway). And then you have several free bridges from Manhattan to the Bronx. Port Authority also has commuter discounts for some of their river crossings.

- Insurance is highly variable based on driving record; a website found via Google search says the average rate is about $170 per month in Brooklyn. So if you have a good driving record, it could be lower than that.

- Maintenance depends on the model, but it won't be too expensive if you have a reliable older car.

It's true that someone in a brand new Audi or BMW could probably afford the congestion charge without taking too much of a hit. But if you look at what's parked around the city, a majority of the cars are not even close to being new. That $127 per month for a 30 day unlimited also goes up a lot if your commute involves another transit agency such as PATH or New Jersey Transit. In that case, public transit may not even be very price-competitive to the car, especially considering the extra time spent by taking transit. I'm generally not referring to commutes that end in Manhattan below 145th Street; for those, there's usually not much of an excuse to not use transit.

Edited by P3F
Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, P3F said:

That may be your setup, and there's nothing wrong with it if it suits you. But it certainly doesn't apply to everyone, especially if they are on a tighter budget.

- There's no reason to lease or finance a car unless you want something new; if you choose a used car right, it is a relatively inexpensive one-time payment.

- In terms of tolls, we have the Brooklyn, Manhattan, Williamsburg, and Queensboro bridges to avoid those (below the Triboro, anyway). And then you have several free bridges from Manhattan to the Bronx. Port Authority also has commuter discounts for some of their river crossings.

- Insurance is highly variable based on driving record; a website found via Google search says the average rate is about $170 per month in Brooklyn. So if you have a good driving record, it could be lower than that.

- Maintenance depends on the model, but it won't be too expensive if you have a reliable older car.

It's true that someone in a brand new Audi or BMW could probably afford the congestion charge without taking too much of a hit. But if you look at what's parked around the city, a majority of the cars are not even close to being new. That $127 per month for a 30 day unlimited also goes up a lot if your commute involves another transit agency such as PATH or New Jersey Transit. In that case, public transit may not even be very price-competitive to the car, especially considering the extra time spent by taking transit. I'm generally not referring to commutes that end in Manhattan below 145th Street; for those, there's usually not much of an excuse to not use transit.

No, it's not my set up at all. I don't use the subway or buy a monthly Metrocard pass. I gave a hypothetical situation. The reality is most people DO lease or finance though, hence why I put that. It goes back to my point, which is that if you are leasing or financing, then you probably won't stop driving in. That's the reality. You are also neglecting how much is NOT parked on the street that is parked in garages or personal spots. I'm also really focusing on the five boroughs, not NJ.

The suburbs are another animal entirely. At the end of the day, this is NYC, and the majority of the people here use public transportation. We have finite amount of the streets, and yes, if you want to drive in NYC you should pay for it. It's that simple. OR take public transportation, and if your options suck then speak up about it so they improve. It's a total cop out to use that line over and over again. I don't have good transit so I HAVE to drive into Manhattan and create more congestion, but on the other hand, I'm too broke to afford congestion pricing. Give me a break.

I look at it this way. If I can sacrifice and take public transportation, then so can other people. Far fewer people really have no choice than those that say that. I could certainly drive into Manhattan considering I don't have subway access, but I don't, and many other people with limit transit options don't either. That's what taking public transit is... A sacrifice... It's much more convenient to drive, and yes sometimes I jump in a car, but more times than not I don't.

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

No, it's not my set up at all. I don't use the subway or buy a monthly Metrocard pass. I gave a hypothetical situation. The reality is most people DO lease or finance though, hence why I put that.

I don't get why lease and have to pay balloon payment at the end of it for wear and tear or excess mileage - especially since that leased car is getting hit when parked on NYC streets - or to outright purchase.

I'd rather do like I always did - buy a previous daily rental, buy the extra warranty, and save thousands compared to brand new.

I had a bad finance on my 06 Sonata V6 - $17k sticker, $22k when paid off, but was still $3k cheaper than list for a new 06 Sonata V6 when everything's done, and it was mine to drive 180k miles on.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

If you are leasing or financing, then you probably won't stop driving in. That's the reality. You are also neglecting how much is NOT parked on the street that is parked in garages or personal spots.

Yes, as I said, the congestion charge would be less of a deterrent to them. Garage space can go from $200 to $500 a month depending on where you are, which is a significant amount of money that isn't worth paying for many.

Quote

We have finite amount of the streets and yes, if you want to drive in NYC you should pay for it. It's that simple. OR take public transportation, and if your options suck then speak up about it so they improve.

The congestion charge isn't some small amount, it's proposed to be around $12 which is more expensive than the one-way equivalent of every single tolled crossing we have. That is an unreasonable amount to charge for the already dubious "privilege" of driving through Manhattan.

Quote

I'm also really focusing on the five boroughs, not NJ. The suburbs are another animal entirely. At the end of the day, this is NYC, and the majority of the people here use public transportation.

People living in NYC aren't required to work in NYC. It's not unreasonable to have a commute that involves going through Manhattan to get elsewhere, considering that it's kind of in the middle of everything around here.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, Deucey said:

I don't get why lease and have to pay balloon payment at the end of it for wear and tear or excess mileage - especially since that leased car is getting hit when parked on NYC streets - or to outright purchase.

I'd rather do like I always did - buy a previous daily rental, buy the extra warranty, and save thousands compared to brand new.

I had a bad finance on my 06 Sonata V6 - $17k sticker, $22k when paid off, but was still $3k cheaper than list for a new 06 Sonata V6 when everything's done, and it was mine to drive 180k miles on.

Simple. People that want a new car every three years or so or don't want the headache of an older car. It's very evident when you see all of the new cars rolling around. Lots of people like to keep up appearances in this City, so as I said, I don't buy it that people can't afford the congestion fee. If they can't, there's public transportation.

12 minutes ago, P3F said:

Yes, as I said, the congestion charge would be less of a deterrent to them. Garage space can go from $200 to $500 a month depending on where you are, which is a significant amount of money that isn't worth paying for many.

The congestion charge isn't some small amount, it's proposed to be around $12 which is more expensive than the one-way equivalent of every single tolled crossing we have. That is an unreasonable amount to charge for the already dubious "privilege" of driving through Manhattan.

People living in NYC aren't required to work in NYC. It's not unreasonable to have a commute that involves going through Manhattan to get elsewhere, considering that it's kind of in the middle of everything around here.

Yeah and it's designed to be high (and should be) to get people to use public transit. What people have been doing is they have stopped using transit entirely in some cases and now they just drive. The only way you're going to break that habit is if they have to pay more to continue it, so if they really NEED to drive, they will continue to do so and make changes elsewhere, or if they WANT to do so, they will pay. If they have options, they will cut back on driving.

The U.S. is so car-centric, and it's understandable in some areas because there are really no transit options. In the Tri-State area, most people can use some form of transit. Right now I still use public transit more than I'm in a car, and I could drive everywhere, but again, understand that I am contributing to what is already a bad problem.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My opposition to congestion pricing in Manhattan below 60th has historically boiled down to three or four things.

First, the funds will be misappropriated by the politicians to fund other, non-transit related items.  They will use it as a cash cow much as they've used other MTA funding sources in the past.  Second, it will disproportionately penalize people living in the outer boroughs.  Not everyone coming into Manhattan is an Audi-driving yuppie d-bag from Connecticut; plenty of ordinary folks drive in by car from SI or the transit-scarce areas of Brooklyn and Queens.  Theoretically, you could get from a place like Rosedale to the Lower West Side by public transit, but the transit system right now is simply not capable of absorbing 100% of car commuters.  Until that changes, it's not reasonable to limit access by car, and even if NYC and NYS theoretically got their shit together to put some shovels in the ground and build more subways, it would be years before any potential new lines open, anyway.

Third, congestion pricing is a solution that fails to address the real problem of politicians not adequately funding transit in the first place; compared to other places in this country, our local and state governments possess rather vast fiscal revenues.  You got 9 million people paying three income taxes (city, state, federal- part of which comes back to us as USDOT funding of course), but our leaders cry broke.  Not enough people question where all the existing money goes and how it is spent, which is why I've called bullshit on congestion pricing since the start.

On a final note, one can't help but question whether congestion pricing will be used as a political precedent for more radical measures.  The city has already banned nearly all vehicular traffic from the north-south roadways in Central Park, capitulated to the bike fundamentalists by screwing up all the major avenues with these ridiculously overbuilt bike lanes (with all the extra curbs and stuff), and turned Midtown Manhattan into an archipelago of pedestrian plazas.  What's next? Congestion pricing to enter Manhattan above 60th? Congestion pricing to enter any of the five boroughs from the rest of New York State? Banning cars from NYC entirely?  The road to hell is always paved with good intentions.

Edited by R10 2952
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/5/2021 at 3:20 PM, R10 2952 said:

The road to hell is always paved with good intentions.

Very, very good quote, I've said that often too with regards to nefarious actions.

Those who don't know, my views are of the balanced transportation approach, having an extreme thought process like Robert Moses or the opposite end of the spectrum, Jane Jacobs doesn't create a healthy transportation system in the end. In other words, the former is roads only, while the latter is no more roads and transit/bikes only.

Yet it seems like the approach in any city these days is to think like the latter, I know it's happened in both NYC and Toronto. That being said, I take the belief that cars do have some purpose of being in a high density area like practically all of Manhattan or here, what we refer to as Toronto's "downtown core".

We have an older population now, one that wouldn't be as mobile to take the subway. Face it, could you imagine your elderly parents that may use walking sticks, enter the subway, (since we are speaking of NYC, possibly make multiple transfers in a system where there aren't many escalators let alone elevators) upon reaching the destination, possibly have to walk further. Or would you prefer to give them a drive straight to the door. I was once laughed at during a presentation at my university that featured city councilors because I used my elderly argument (especially with the baby boomers getting "up there" in age) as a deterrent as to why a street shouldn't be turned into a pedestrian mall.

Factor in that downtown Toronto has 6 major hospitals, 5 of these relatively close to subway stations, one requires transfer onto a streetcar from the subway. So yeah, imagine an elderly loved who has a mobility issue needs to go to a specialist appointment and you live in the suburbs or beyond, how will you get there, like it or lump it, the car is the most convenient option in that scenario.

 

There are plenty of other examples where a car would be more convenient, what about the commuter who lives somewhere in Nassau County and works in Westchester County, correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't that require having to first take a LIRR train into Manhattan and then a Metro North train northbound. And let's not forget about potential first/last mile situations involving getting from home to LIRR station, and from getting to destination from Metro North station. Again, obviously the car would be the best bet for any type of cross regional commuting. You know as well as i do that large transit routes designed to bring people from Westchester into Nassau aren't practical.

 

 

Now comes the other bad part about congestion pricing which is why I decided to chime in. Obviously, like the obsession of switching to all electronic tolling everywhere (we've had such an electronic toll road here in the GTA since 1997 and you can find all sorts of billing horror stories online) is the unfairness regarding extra charges. If one doesn't have presumably the E-Z Pass then they will be hit with extra "administrative" charges. It's just how these things always go. You may say, whatever. But imagine yourself coming from another part of the country, or anywhere in the world really, renting a car, facing unfair congestion charges, and then because you don't have the transponder in the rental, getting hit by a nasty charge from the rental company. In Toronto, this was always the case involving rental companies and Hwy 407, they purposely tell you to avoid it or you will face huge additional charges, in NYC you have unavoidable electronic tolling situations which would be further compounded by congestion charge zones.

On 4/5/2021 at 3:20 PM, R10 2952 said:

Until that changes, it's not reasonable to limit access by car, and even if NYC and NYS theoretically got their shit together to put some shovels in the ground and build more subways, it would be years before any potential new lines open, anyway.

Good luck in seeing anything else come to fruition. You guys like us will probably start building light rail lines on some of the avenues in Manhattan, with the outrageous resources it's taking to complete the SAS. Many years, how about many decades.....I am not pessimistic but rather a realist on these matters.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, MisterSG1 said:

Very, very good quote, I've said that often too with regards to nefarious actions.

Those who don't know, my views are of the balanced transportation approach, having an extreme thought process like Robert Moses or the opposite end of the spectrum, Jane Jacobs doesn't create a healthy transportation system in the end. In other words, the former is roads only, while the latter is no more roads and transit/bikes only.

Yet it seems like the approach in any city these days is to think like the latter, I know it's happened in both NYC and Toronto. That being said, I take the belief that cars do have some purpose of being in a high density area like practically all of Manhattan or here, what we refer to as Toronto's "downtown core".

We have an older population now, one that wouldn't be as mobile to take the subway. Face it, could you imagine your elderly parents that may use walking sticks, enter the subway, (since we are speaking of NYC, possibly make multiple transfers in a system where there aren't many escalators let alone elevators) upon reaching the destination, possibly have to walk further. Or would you prefer to give them a drive straight to the door. I was once laughed at during a presentation at my university that featured city councilors because I used my elderly argument (especially with the baby boomers getting "up there" in age) as a deterrent as to why a street shouldn't be turned into a pedestrian mall.

Factor in that downtown Toronto has 6 major hospitals, 5 of these relatively close to subway stations, one requires transfer onto a streetcar from the subway. So yeah, imagine an elderly loved who has a mobility issue needs to go to a specialist appointment and you live in the suburbs or beyond, how will you get there, like it or lump it, the car is the most convenient option in that scenario.

There are plenty of other examples where a car would be more convenient, what about the commuter who lives somewhere in Nassau County and works in Westchester County, correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't that require having to first take a LIRR train into Manhattan and then a Metro North train northbound. And let's not forget about potential first/last mile situations involving getting from home to LIRR station, and from getting to destination from Metro North station. Again, obviously the car would be the best bet for any type of cross regional commuting. You know as well as i do that large transit routes designed to bring people from Westchester into Nassau aren't practical.

Now comes the other bad part about congestion pricing which is why I decided to chime in. Obviously, like the obsession of switching to all electronic tolling everywhere (we've had such an electronic toll road here in the GTA since 1997 and you can find all sorts of billing horror stories online) is the unfairness regarding extra charges. If one doesn't have presumably the E-Z Pass then they will be hit with extra "administrative" charges. It's just how these things always go. You may say, whatever. But imagine yourself coming from another part of the country, or anywhere in the world really, renting a car, facing unfair congestion charges, and then because you don't have the transponder in the rental, getting hit by a nasty charge from the rental company. In Toronto, this was always the case involving rental companies and Hwy 407, they purposely tell you to avoid it or you will face huge additional charges, in NYC you have unavoidable electronic tolling situations which would be further compounded by congestion charge zones.

Sorry, but congestion pricing is needed to break the tide of everyone using cars in NYC. Our transportation system SUCKS. It's unreliable for one. You don't know when or IF your bus will come.  That is what is leading to many people giving up and buying and using cars. However, in NYC that is NOT sustainable.  There are some people that like to use the excuse that they are transit starved, so they MUST drive, and the solution to that is to PROVIDE MORE transit options in those areas. We don't need trains in every corner of the City that are not as dense.  We can use buses, which are flexible and require minimal resources to get up and running. The problem is NYC has been slow to roll out bus lanes and Transit Signal Priority, and the drivers in this City have no respect for public transportation or riders. They don't care. They want to drive and to hell with everyone else.  If they insist on having to drive, they can cough up more to do so. We don't have the infrastructure to have so many people driving. It is leading to an untenable situation.  Most seniors here in NYC use buses, be it local buses or express buses, and they run very poorly in terms of being reliable.  Fix that and the crummy subway service, and you could get more people to use them.  They should be CLEAN and reliable, and not packed to the rafters. Some people think that getting on a packed bus or train is fine. That works for some people, but if you're going to get more people to use mass transit, you need to make the situation more comfortable for them. That doesn't mean that they get an entire bus to themselves, but it shouldn't be a sardine can either. 

 

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.