Service to Penn Station via East Bronx

[B35 via Church]

35 minutes ago, Lex said:

I think it helps that Yonkers actually has some reverse-peak potential by train, unlike Hempstead.

Well, it already has a good headstart, given how the Yonkers waterfront area was revamped.... Although it's fugazy as shit IMO, a whole new downtown area was carved from scratch out in Wyandanch before Hempstead could revamp their actual/existing downtown area... And then there's Patchogue's downtown transformation and, yeah.....

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 hour ago, B35 via Church said:

1. Along with their attitudes within, that's ultimately what I'm getting at... Nassau/Suffolk LIRR riders want a certain exclusivity to the RR, but want to confine NYC patrons (that are traveling within the city) to the subway - when suburban LI-ers use the subway in mass numbers in their own right, after disembarking the LIRR at Penn.... Proverbial having their cake & eating it too.... We can use yours, but stay the f*** off ours - like their shit don't stink....

2. Now that you mention it, come to think of it, I've been on MNRR trains in the past where fares were being disputed also... It usually happened on the Harlem line from riders having boarded at (or are heading to) White Plains.... LIRR riders OTOH don't specifically dispute fares down to the dollar amount... They're either too busy hiding in the bathroom or making up some elaborate lie as to why they don't have a ticket, instead.... IDK how many times I've been on the LIRR where trains were delayed at Jamaica b/c the authorities had to get involved with a fare beater.....

3. Yonkers patrons (in the not so tony parts, as you put it.... lol) are too busy taking buses to 242nd or Woodlawn to care about whatever's going on with the MNRR.... While there are park & riders at 242nd or 238th (I've personally never seen them down at 231st, but I'll take your word for it), a lot of that usage on the that far up the line are bus riders that, large in part, are doing a shit ton of xferring at Getty Sq... Same deal with Hempstead (that doesn't have a tony part to speak of !) with the whole bombarding n6's to the or whatever.... While I certainly get it, it's still crazy how much the LIRR is shunned by Nassau patrons at Hempstead.... There's a certain shunning of MNRR Yonkers also (with those aforementioned congregants of bus riders over at Getty Sq), but it's not nearly as apparent to me.... The Yonkers/Hempstead comparison in general (not just involving public transit) is a good case study when it comes to analyzing LI's flaws vs. Westchester's flaws... It's the one that's the most constantly pulled on....

1. Don't get me wrong, there is a snob factor, but I think at least on the Hudson Line, if you don't want to deal with the City folks too much, you can take the express trains from Croton-Harmon. There are so many Riverdale folks on those the semi-express ones that we make up a chunk of the riders at times, so less likely to see anyone scoffing, as most of them know it's a tony area, and if you don't want to take those, then you have other express trains that skip even more stops. I know the stops south of Marble Hill see riders, but they seem to be more reverse riders than anything that work in Westchester or have family there or something, so if you sit in a certain car, after Spuyten Duyvil, you rarely see anyone get on the train if you are on a train that makes all stops. With the LIRR trains, more of them serve stops that people use like Forest Hills, Kew Gardens, Jamaica, etc. Jamaica being a hub and a transfer point, it's almost impossible to skip it.

2. I don't know where these people come from, but I also see people confused about the fare, so they have to pay for ride extensions on board, which is just stupid.  With all of the technology out here, it is so simple to put an address in Google to see where you need to get off at, but whatever. Not my problem. As more people use e-tickets, I've been seeing less of that, which I suppose is a good thing. I've seen the hiding in the bathroom trick, usually from people that board at Morris Heights. If they get on at University Heights, they can hop off at Marble Hill without paying, which I have seen often. lol 

3. No, they never get on at 231st. I was talking about where I board, which is at 238th or 231st , and on the rare occasion 242nd. I like getting on at 231st, since there's an elevator if I'm too lazy to walk up all of those stairs. Since OMNY came out (it has truly been Godsend, as I can just board the bus and pay like a civilized human being), I don't have a need to go down there anymore. Usually I would refill and then sometimes just hop on the subway if I didn't want to backtrack to the express bus. They usually park somewhere near 242nd and get on at the first stop.  The ones taking the buses down to 242nd St, they would do that regardless, but I'm thinking of the types that drive down to the  train.  I know a few of them... They like to rag on the City folks, but will come down and use the subway. lol

------

At a previous job I worked at, we had lots of people from Long Island, Staten Island (Stapleton Heights (not Stapleton lol)), Annadale, Princes Bay, Great Kills, etc.), Westchester (i.e. Rye, Scarsdale, etc.) and Connecticut (i.e. Greenwich, Fairfield, etc.) among the outer boroughs, and a few from New Jersey (I'm almost certain they (the New Jersey guys drove in - none of them seemed like the types that would take public transit in). I was shocked to find out that some of them drove in every day.  Some from Long Island took the LIRR to the subway, but I would imagine that some drove too. Some from Staten Island took the express bus and quite a few drove, and at least one of them from Connecticut (the one from Greenwich) drove.

Something else I noticed is there are a lot of students that reverse commute at 125th. My guess is they are from the Upper East Side, jump on at 125th since that's the closest station and go to private schools in Westchester. I can tell by the uniforms, but upon paying more attention, there are more than I previously realized (this was pre-COVID) when I would use the 125th St station to get down to Grand Central if I had a stop off or meeting or something up there. I wonder what a West Side MNRR would garner in reverse peak riders, be it people going to private school, college or what have you. There are a lot of South Bronx commuters that work in Westchester or Connecticut, that I know for sure, esp. in the medical field.

  

1 hour ago, bobtehpanda said:

In the grand scheme of things it takes 2h 25 to get to Albany, which is comparable or faster than driving depending on traffic conditions, and a minute or two on top is not going to change that. Flying is even worse given how long it takes during the rush to even get to LGA or JFK or EWR.

I know because I used to do the trip by car or bus since I went to school up near Montréal for a while before moving to Italy; Plattsburgh to be exact. With no traffic, you can do the trip in about six hours with a break in between. I'm not necessarily sold that there's that much demand though, but as I said, there should be a study to gauge what ridership would be like.

Edited May 23, 2021 by Via Garibaldi 8

[paulrivera]

5 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Generally speaking, How vocal/irate do Westchesterians (and other northerners) / Nutmeggers (folks from CT) on MNRR get, when it comes to Bronxites (and/or Manhattanites/Queens patrons at Harlem - 125th) using MNRR for intra-city travel?

 

2 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

When I bought monthly passes I did it often when I needed to be in Harlem, though usually I would take Hudson line trains, since I know the schedule well. I would say they generally don't care, and part of the reason is because they too do it. You think some guy from CT is going to buy a monthly pass and hop on the subway after a meeting from 125th? lol Same thing when I've gone to Yankees Stadium to watch games and come from my office. They all take Metro-North to the game. Funny thing is I find Long Islanders more likely to use the subway than those Metro-North riders. I think the conductors are becoming more aware of how many people board at 125th or get off at 125th and now have try to make sure they check those tickets because in the past, the normally wouldn't start checking until after 125th going towards CT or Westchester.

What I have seen is people in Westchester arguing about why their fares are higher. One weekend I got on at the Riverdale station. Lady was arguing about how she boarded in Yonkers and was paying almost double for a ride that just over the City border was $4.50. lol That is one thing I find hilarious about some people in Westchester. The ones that live in say Yonkers in the not so tony parts hate having to pay for Metro-North, so they will drive down to Broadway, take up all of the parking in that part of Riverdale to hop on the train. A few times I would take the subway and be shocked at how crowded it was, and we're talking about getting on at 231st or 238th.

Over on the New Haven side, tons of people take Metro-North from New Rochelle to Fordham for about the same price as a local bus ride ($3).

But if you go one extra stop to 125th, that fare is almost TRIPLE off-peak ($8.50) and almost QUADRUPLE during peak ($11.25). If I lived in Westchester I'd complain, too.

[bobtehpanda]

8 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I know because I used to do the trip by car or bus since I went to school up near Montréal for a while before moving to Italy; Plattsburgh to be exact. With no traffic, you can do the trip in about six hours with a break in between. I'm not necessarily sold that there's that much demand though, but as I said, there should be a study to gauge what ridership would be like.

It's early days yet but Amtrak has released plans to improve services from NY to Toronto and Montreal, we have an administration that is doing legwork to make infrastructure spending actually happen, etc.

NYDOT has a EIS completed for potential upgrades to the entire corridor from NYC to Niagara Falls. The alternatives still in play bump NYC-Albany Services from 13 a day, already one of the most frequent corridors outside the Northeast/Acela, to possibly even 27 services a day. And all for less than the cost of the Gateway tunnel.

Toronto and Montreal were also legally cleared to have CBP preclearance at their train stations, but as far as I know they haven't worked out who is paying for what yet.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

14 minutes ago, paulrivera said:

 

Over on the New Haven side, tons of people take Metro-North from New Rochelle to Fordham for about the same price as a local bus ride ($3).

But if you go one extra stop to 125th, that fare is almost TRIPLE off-peak ($8.50) and almost QUADRUPLE during peak ($11.25). If I lived in Westchester I'd complain, too.

And that is why the Fordham stop is SO popular because many of them get off and take the subway from there. That trend started years ago after the first series of fare hikes. I'm sure Metro-North is aware of it too and would prefer it that way, this way they don't have to provide more service.  Same deal with the Marble Hill stop. Truth be told, the  Board has had discussions about how much higher they can go with the fares before they start pushing people into their cars, because they are becoming far too high. Even for me from Riverdale, if I pay for two peak tickets, and use the Hudson Raillink Shuttle bus, it's $25.00 round trip. I could drive into Manhattan and park for less. I just pay it because I set aside monies for travel each month and it's whatever, but if you're really watching your budget, that's like a nice take-out lunch right there in Manhattan. lol I thought about it a few years ago in fact when I was ordering lunch, and previously, I really never gave it much thought, but the fare has been going up so quickly that you start to pay attention, as I've had to allocate more monies to my monthly travel budget (pre-COVID anyway, not now).

14 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

It's early days yet but Amtrak has released plans to improve services from NY to Toronto and Montreal, we have an administration that is doing legwork to make infrastructure spending actually happen, etc.

NYDOT has a EIS completed for potential upgrades to the entire corridor from NYC to Niagara Falls. The alternatives still in play bump NYC-Albany Services from 13 a day, already one of the most frequent corridors outside the Northeast/Acela, to possibly even 27 services a day. And all for less than the cost of the Gateway tunnel.

Toronto and Montreal were also legally cleared to have CBP preclearance at their train stations, but as far as I know they haven't worked out who is paying for what yet.

It's nice, but unless it sees ongoing funding, I'm not holding my breath. That's the main difference between here and Canada and Europe. The U.S. remains very car centric overall, even here in NYC. Most New Yorkers don't drive, but more and more people are getting cars. I think it's a generational thing that could be a big problem. I know the younger generation tends to be more transit focused, but you have a lot of young people driving and avoiding using transit as much as possible, and this was even before COVID. Materialistic being the main reason...

Edited May 23, 2021 by Via Garibaldi 8

[B35 via Church]

15 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

1. Don't get me wrong, there is a snob factor, but I think at least on the Hudson Line, if you don't want to deal with the City folks too much, you can take the express trains from Croton-Harmon. There are so many Riverdale folks on those the semi-express ones that we make up a chunk of the riders at times, so less likely to see anyone scoffing, as most of them know it's a tony area, and if you don't want to take those, then you have other express trains that skip even more stops. I know the stops south of Marble Hill see riders, but they seem to be more reverse riders than anything that work in Westchester or have family there or something, so if you sit in a certain car, after Spuyten Duyvil, you rarely see anyone get on the train if you are on a train that makes all stops. With the LIRR trains, more of them serve stops that people use like Forest Hills, Kew Gardens, Jamaica, etc. Jamaica being a hub and a transfer point, it's almost impossible to skip it.

2. I don't know where these people come from, but I also see people confused about the fare, so they have to pay for ride extensions on board, which is just stupid.  With all of the technology out here, it is so simple to put an address in Google to see where you need to get off at, but whatever. Not my problem. As more people use e-tickets, I've been seeing less of that, which I suppose is a good thing. I've seen the hiding in the bathroom trick, usually from people that board at Morris Heights. If they get on at University Heights, they can hop off at Marble Hill without paying, which I have seen often. lol 

3. No, they never get on at 231st. I was talking about where I board, which is at 238th or 231st , and on the rare occasion 242nd. I like getting on at 231st, since there's an elevator if I'm too lazy to walk up all of those stairs. Since OMNY came out (it has truly been Godsend, as I can just board the bus and pay like a civilized human being), I don't have a need to go down there anymore. Usually I would refill and then sometimes just hop on the subway if I didn't want to backtrack to the express bus. They usually park somewhere near 242nd and get on at the first stop.  The ones taking the buses down to 242nd St, they would do that regardless, but I'm thinking of the types that drive down to the  train.  I know a few of them... They like to rag on the City folks, but will come down and use the subway. lol

1. That's just it - most Suburban LIRR riders abhor the fact that trains even stop at Jamaica, let alone the other (what those riders deem as) ancillary stations in the city..... Unlike the # of express trains that go straight to Croton-Harmon/White Plains/Stamford (respectively) from 125th, there's only a select Long Island direct trains total/period across all branches (of course, save for the PW branch that never sees Jamaica) that bypass Jamaica.... Penn or bust, is most certainly a thing.... There's even Penn riders that see fellow LIRR riders that use the Atlantic Terminal branch as somehow less than.... It is that petty with Long Islanders.... Goofy sauce.

You'll always have a snob factor on the RR's, but I don't see/experience classlessness & crassness that comes equipped with snobbery when I typically took the MNRR, compared with it being commonplace enough like with the LIRR...

2. Around the time right before I stopped taking the LIRR to/from my old job, conductors started being more diligent with checking the bathrooms (I'd say they should've been instructed to do that, but w/e).... In turn, more trains were being delayed because of those police interactions with farebeaters at Jamaica.... Something else that started becoming a problem were the homeless people at Atlantic Terminal that wouldn't get up out the bathroom (or elsewhere on the train), so that the trains can leave in the morning... I ended up being late a few times because of that crap.... It got to a point on that 5:12am out of Atlantic, where they had 2-3 transit cops on a beat, walking that platform that train usually left off (tracks 3 or 4), checking each open car to "ensure rider safety" - a.k.a. get them homeless skells tf up out them trains..... Good idea on the surface - except they would start doing those checks right around the time the train was about to leave....

To the first part of the reply in this point though, there were more tourists that took MNRR (on the weekends anyway, from Peekskill & points north in-particular).... So some of that befuddlement could be attributed to that (although I wouldn't put it past anybody to merely feign ignorance of the fare price).... Amazing how people want premium service at bargain basement prices....

3. IDRC for boarding at either at 231st or 242nd ... Too many people...  231st in-particular has too many people either aimlessly standing around along Broadway all in the way, or pacing around very slowly.... Basically all in the way, yet you're the problem because you're the person actually trying to get somewhere..... 242nd OTOH is an all out jailbreak scenario, where everybody's tryna be the first MF-er on the train, like it's the last one in existence.... God help you if a Bx9 & one of the Bee-line buses arrive at the stop at the same time..... Damn all that.... When I would take the 1W from White Plains back to the Bronx, I'd walk down to 238th more often than not.... Yeah I'd miss a train (sometimes 2), but I don't mind the trek if it means not dealing with either of what I just described....

1 hour ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Something else I noticed is there are a lot of students that reverse commute at 125th. My guess is they are from the Upper East Side, jump on at 125th since that's the closest station and go to private schools in Westchester. I can tell by the uniforms, but upon paying more attention, there are more than I previously realized (this was pre-COVID) when I would use the 125th St station to get down to Grand Central if I had a stop off or meeting or something up there. I wonder what a West Side MNRR would garner in reverse peak riders, be it people going to private school, college or what have you. There are a lot of South Bronx commuters that work in Westchester or Connecticut, that I know for sure, esp. in the medical field.

IDK what school{s} those are either, but many moons ago, there were times I would take the Bx8 to MNRR Tuckahoe & saw a decent amount of schoolkids waiting on both platforms.... Around 1-2pm, which you'd think was early for school let-out, but whatever... Anyway, while more of them would wait on the NB track, there would be a sizable percentage of them waiting on the SB platform along with me.... Of those ones on the SB platform, I never really saw the last batch of them disembark south of Fordham - but most would be off by Woodlawn.... They would slowly get off, 2 here, 1 there, 3 there, etc... They looked to be more JHS aged than HS aged.....

1 hour ago, paulrivera said:

Over on the New Haven side, tons of people take Metro-North from New Rochelle to Fordham for about the same price as a local bus ride ($3).

But if you go one extra stop to 125th, that fare is almost TRIPLE off-peak ($8.50) and almost QUADRUPLE during peak ($11.25). If I lived in Westchester I'd complain, too.

Good old fashioned city upcharging....

Anyway, New Roc' to Fordham for 3 bucks? Lol.... Taking the LIRR from ENY to Nostrand av. costs 5 dollars on Atlantic Ticket & 4.50 IINM on city ticket.... If you don't use either of those options, have fun paying that f***ing 6.50.....

[Via Garibaldi 8]

11 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

1. That's just it - most Suburban LIRR riders abhor the fact that trains even stop at Jamaica, let alone the other (what those riders deem as) ancillary stations in the city..... Unlike the # of express trains that go straight to Croton-Harmon/White Plains/Stamford (respectively) from 125th, there's only a select Long Island direct trains total/period across all branches (of course, save for the PW branch that never sees Jamaica) that bypass Jamaica.... Penn or bust, is most certainly a thing.... There's even Penn riders that see fellow LIRR riders that use the Atlantic Terminal branch as somehow less than.... It is that petty with Long Islanders.... Goofy sauce.

You'll always have a snob factor on the RR's, but I don't see/experience classlessness & crassness that comes equipped with snobbery when I typically took the MNRR, compared with it being commonplace enough like with the LIRR...

2. Around the time right before I stopped taking the LIRR to/from my old job, conductors started being more diligent with checking the bathrooms (I'd say they should've been instructed to do that, but w/e).... In turn, more trains were being delayed because of those police interactions with farebeaters at Jamaica.... Something else that started becoming a problem were the homeless people at Atlantic Terminal that wouldn't get up out the bathroom (or elsewhere on the train), so that the trains can leave in the morning... I ended up being late a few times because of that crap.... It got to a point on that 5:12am out of Atlantic, where they had 2-3 transit cops on a beat, walking that platform that train usually left off (tracks 3 or 4), checking each open car to "ensure rider safety" - a.k.a. get them homeless skells tf up out them trains..... Good idea on the surface - except they would start doing those checks right around the time the train was about to leave....

To the first part of the reply in this point though, there were more tourists that took MNRR (on the weekends anyway, from Peekskill & points north in-particular).... So some of that befuddlement could be attributed to that (although I wouldn't put it past anybody to merely feign ignorance of the fare price).... Amazing how people want premium service at bargain basement prices....

3. IDRC for boarding at either at 231st or 242nd ... Too many people...  231st in-particular has too many people either aimlessly standing around along Broadway all in the way, or pacing around very slowly.... Basically all in the way, yet you're the problem because you're the person actually trying to get somewhere..... 242nd OTOH is an all out jailbreak scenario, where everybody's tryna be the first MF-er on the train, like it's the last one in existence.... God help you if a Bx9 & one of the Bee-line buses arrive at the stop at the same time..... Damn all that.... When I would take the 1W from White Plains back to the Bronx, I'd walk down to 238th more often than not.... Yeah I'd miss a train (sometimes 2), but I don't mind the trek if it means not dealing with either of what I just described....

IDK what school{s} those are either, but many moons ago, there were times I would take the Bx8 to MNRR Tuckahoe & saw a decent amount of schoolkids waiting on both platforms.... Around 1-2pm, which you'd think was early for school let-out, but whatever... Anyway, while more of them would wait on the NB track, there would be a sizable percentage of them waiting on the SB platform along with me.... Of those ones on the SB platform, I never really saw the last batch of them disembark south of Fordham - but most would be off by Woodlawn.... They would slowly get off, 2 here, 1 there, 3 there, etc... They looked to be more JHS aged than HS aged.....

1. Yeah and I think part of that is the cost factor. When you're paying what they pay, then they expect a minimal amount of stops. The LIRR experiences a lot of delays, and at those prices, I'd be pissed.  The LIRR also reinforces that snobbery with the price structure, and don't forget the workers that aren't necessarily thrilled about the City folks using the LIRR trains.  They tend to live in the suburbs and share the same sentiment as the riders. lol

I must say the people checking my ticket of late have been very professional, at least on MNRR trains anyway.  Never had an issue on LIRR trains though either. I show my e-ticket and they keep it moving.

2. Yeah because they know what's going on. That and some of the board members see what's going on and say hey wait a minute, we need to step up fare enforcement. T

3. If I board at 242nd, I walk to the station, so I time it so that I'm not going upstairs when those buses are letting out. I don't sit anyway, so a seat is the least of my concern. I just go for the least crowded car. At 231st, I am fine letting a train or two go by until I get one that isn't super packed.

those school kids start earlier because sometimes I would see them early in the morning running for their train. True about the tourists, but there are some lazy folks that ride too.

 

[checkmatechamp13]

3 hours ago, Lex said:

I think it helps that Yonkers actually has some reverse-peak potential by train, unlike Hempstead.

Trains arrive in the AM rush hour at 7:33am, 7:56am, and 8:38am, and in the PM rush hour, service is better than hourly. (Obviously it's not as robust as MNRR reverse-peak service, but it's not as unusable as the Main Line).

[B35 via Church]

21 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

1. Yeah and I think part of that is the cost factor. When you're paying what they pay, then they expect a minimal amount of stops. The LIRR experiences a lot of delays, and at those prices, I'd be pissed.  The LIRR also reinforces that snobbery with the price structure, and don't forget the workers that aren't necessarily thrilled about the City folks using the LIRR trains.  They tend to live in the suburbs and share the same sentiment as the riders. lol

I must say the people checking my ticket of late have been very professional, at least on MNRR trains anyway.  Never had an issue on LIRR trains though either. I show my e-ticket and they keep it moving.

2. Yeah because they know what's going on. That and some of the board members see what's going on and say hey wait a minute, we need to step up fare enforcement. T

3. If I board at 242nd, I walk to the station, so I time it so that I'm not going upstairs when those buses are letting out. I don't sit anyway, so a seat is the least of my concern. I just go for the least crowded car. At 231st, I am fine letting a train or two go by until I get one that isn't super packed.

those school kids start earlier because sometimes I would see them early in the morning running for their train. True about the tourists, but there are some lazy folks that ride too.

- Yeah - the same constant delays that you could set your watch to, almost daily during the work week.... I would make people on the platform chuckle sometimes when I would say things like "yeah, the 5:32 (pm) was 5 minutes late, 5 minutes ago".... The next train after that used to be the 5:40.... Look up on the board & surprise, surprise - somehow miraculously, the 5:32 (which was the express to Jamaica) & the 5:40 (which stopped at NHP & Merillon) were set to arrive at Mineola at the same time (with both being late of course).... Stupid shit.... Never did get to see both trains arriving on the one track simultaneously .... Seriously though, it sucked for the Penn riders because you never really knew which was the express to Penn or which was the "local" that stopped at either NHP & Merillon before stopping at Jamaica (unless you asked the c/r).....

In short, it wasn't even the whole, not getting what you pay for factor with me... Money wasn't the issue, it was the fact that these delays were so common, that you felt as if they were intentionally being done.... There were a couple times I'd have to power walk to catch one of the early trains, where I'd see something stupid on the board like "4:55   PENN STATION    LATE 47".... That's when you knew you were gonna be in for a ride (pun unintended) on that day.... All that hustling for nothing.... I should have been gave up on the LIRR (and the B12) way before I ended up doing so....

 

With the point about the (or any other subway train for the matter), I go to the least crowded car to sit (of course, that's usually when some crowder, as they call them) comes out of nowhere & opts to sit near you... I know my chances of getting an empty car walking over to 238th is lessened, but for me it beats trekking up stairs with a pack of people in front of me & behind me at 242nd... I don't like that feeling of walking with a pack, esp. on stairs.... Someone hesitates in front of you & you end up almost, if not actually bumping into the person in front of you.... That, or either the person behind you that steps on the back of your shoe as you're walking up the stairs.... Anyway, I can't do too much unnecessary standing before I start getting lightheaded; no way I'd willingly stand from 242nd to Midtown, or wherever you get off at....

1 hour ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

Trains arrive in the AM rush hour at 7:33am, 7:56am, and 8:38am, and in the PM rush hour, service is better than hourly. (Obviously it's not as robust as MNRR reverse-peak service, but it's not as unusable as the Main Line).

You mean like that infamous gap that existed after the old 5:51am train at Atlantic Terminal being the 7:41am if you needed to (xfer to) a Main Line train from Brooklyn....

-------------------------

Hmm.... I'm looking at the current schedule now & lo and behold, the gap is actually over 2 hours now (instead of almost being 2 hours).. Being that they discontinued that old 5:51 West Hempstead & now have the old 5:28 Long Beach leaving 11 mins later, the next train after that 5:39 now is a train that leaves a whopping 60 seconds earlier than the equivalent train did about 4-5 years ago (so, if you miss that 5:39 & need the Main line, have fun d*cking around until 7:40)....

Beautiful.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

3 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

- Yeah - the same constant delays that you could set your watch to, almost daily during the work week.... I would make people on the platform chuckle sometimes when I would say things like "yeah, the 5:32 (pm) was 5 minutes late, 5 minutes ago".... The next train after that used to be the 5:40.... Look up on the board & surprise, surprise - somehow miraculously, the 5:32 (which was the express to Jamaica) & the 5:40 (which stopped at NHP & Merillon) were set to arrive at Mineola at the same time (with both being late of course).... Stupid shit.... Never did get to see both trains arriving on the one track simultaneously .... Seriously though, it sucked for the Penn riders because you never really knew which was the express to Penn or which was the "local" that stopped at either NHP & Merillon before stopping at Jamaica (unless you asked the c/r).....

In short, it wasn't even the whole, not getting what you pay for factor with me... Money wasn't the issue, it was the fact that these delays were so common, that you felt as if they were intentionally being done.... There were a couple times I'd have to power walk to catch one of the early trains, where I'd see something stupid on the board like "4:55   PENN STATION    LATE 47".... That's when you knew you were gonna be in for a ride (pun unintended) on that day.... All that hustling for nothing.... I should have been gave up on the LIRR (and the B12) way before I ended up doing so....

 

With the point about the (or any other subway train for the matter), I go to the least crowded car to sit (of course, that's usually when some crowder, as they call them) comes out of nowhere & opts to sit near you... I know my chances of getting an empty car walking over to 238th is lessened, but for me it beats trekking up stairs with a pack of people in front of me & behind me at 242nd... I don't like that feeling of walking with a pack, esp. on stairs.... Someone hesitates in front of you & you end up almost, if not actually bumping into the person in front of you.... That, or either the person behind you that steps on the back of your shoe as you're walking up the stairs.... Anyway, I can't do too much unnecessary standing before I start getting lightheaded; no way I'd willingly stand from 242nd to Midtown, or wherever you get off at....

 

I'm used to it by now. lol I would normally get off say at 96th, transfer for the express, then transfer for the  then walk from there, not including getting to the station. You see why I don't do that too often. Mini marathon.

[R10 2952]

As to Penn Station Access, wasn't there also some discussion about reviving the Port Morris Branch for a Harlem Line connection to Penn?

Doubt it would be doable since in addition to the ROW being built over in some places, the line itself had some very tight twists and turns.

[B35 via Church]

59 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I'm used to it by now. lol I would normally get off say at 96th, transfer for the express, then transfer for the  then walk from there, not including getting to the station. You see why I don't do that too often. Mini marathon.

You're used to standing up for long enough durations & I'm used to walking long enough distances.... Funny you reference that passageway at TSQ; I make a sport out of walking that whole corridor at TSQ from the 8th av lines to the Broadway lines (passing by those steps down for the & up for the 7th av lines)....

Did the reverse yesterday morning (walked from the Q to get to that PABT entrance by the 8th av lines, to get to the NJT routes & what not) as a matter of fact... I stopped exiting the station at that 41st/Broadway exit (SE corner) because a homeless dude basically made one of those stairwells (right at the HEET's) his "home"....

Edited May 24, 2021 by B35 via Church

[Mtatransit]

10 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

For a forum that is supposedly "pro  workers", it is strange that the conversation of reducing manpower on the railroads keeps coming up, as that would clearly lead to people losing their jobs. I would argue that the structure of the service makes it more expensive as well, as it is again a commuter rail service and not a subway, so just like express buses, you don't have the same turnover. The unions will never go for less staff, and I don't blame them. At the same time, it makes no sense to try to shape the railroad into a subway operation when it is not a subway. The  is looking at other ways to reduce operational costs, but as far as the manpower... You will never get those costs down, as pensions and other overhead costs continue to go up. You would need a significant amount of trains and ridership to bring down the cost, and the reality is the railroads are not set up to deal with such a capacity. As I said, if you want more subways, advocate for more subways, but asking the railroads to be more like subways is just preposterous. They are commuter rails. It's like trying to change fast ferries into the Staten Island ferry. They have different uses and different bases.

Its not being "against  workers". By reducing the amount of manpower you can provide more service for the same cost.

Labor cost is one of the biggest expense for commuter rail. That and the peak nature of commuter rail (less so for MNR more so for LIRR)

They have different uses, yes, but right now the service  provides to the city is absolutely ridiculous. Maybe less for MNR, but for the LIRR, service in the city is both expensive and infrequent, and they wonder why everyone takes the bus to the subway. It doesn't have to be the subway, but it HAS to be better than the service currently provided.

LIRR doesn't even have intermediate tickets for Queens riders.

7 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Regardless, although I'm still not fond of making the RR's more subway-like either, suburbanites are going to have to come to grips with the subway not being the only form of heavy rail that urbanites have to patronize.... I mean, IDK of a single NYC resident (natives or transplants... lol) that particularly complain about/single out suburbanites that add/ed to peak hour subway crowding....

Usually its suburbanites complaining about the crowding/safety of the subway. 

Thats why there is the East Side Access

3 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Along with their attitudes within, that's ultimately what I'm getting at... Nassau/Suffolk LIRR riders want a certain exclusivity to the RR, but want to confine NYC patrons (that are traveling within the city) to the subway - when suburban LI-ers use the subway in mass numbers in their own right, after disembarking the LIRR at Penn.... Proverbial having their cake & eating it too.... We can use yours, but stay the f*** off ours - like their shit don't stink....

Now that you mention it, come to think of it, I've been on MNRR trains in the past where fares were being disputed also... It usually happened on the Harlem line from riders having boarded at (or are heading to) White Plains.... LIRR riders OTOH don't specifically dispute fares down to the dollar amount... They're either too busy hiding in the bathroom or making up some elaborate lie as to why they don't have a ticket, instead.... IDK how many times I've been on the LIRR where trains were delayed at Jamaica b/c the authorities had to get involved with a fare beater.....

Yonkers patrons (in the not so tony parts, as you put it.... lol) are too busy taking buses to 242nd or Woodlawn to care about whatever's going on with the MNRR.... While there are park & riders at 242nd or 238th (I've personally never seen them down at 231st, but I'll take your word for it), a lot of that usage on the that far up the line are bus riders that, large in part, are doing a shit ton of xferring at Getty Sq... Same deal with Hempstead (that doesn't have a tony part to speak of !) with the whole bombarding n6's to the or whatever.... While I certainly get it, it's still crazy how much the LIRR is shunned by Nassau patrons at Hempstead.... There's a certain shunning of MNRR Yonkers also (with those aforementioned congregants of bus riders over at Getty Sq), but it's not nearly as apparent to me.... The Yonkers/Hempstead comparison in general (not just involving public transit) is a good case study when it comes to analyzing LI's flaws vs. Westchester's flaws... It's the one that's the most constantly pulled on....

Yonkers is not nearly as bad as Hempstead. I rarely see anyone board at Hempstead LIRR. Most of the branch ridership came from Queens or Garden City

2 hours ago, paulrivera said:

 

Over on the New Haven side, tons of people take Metro-North from New Rochelle to Fordham for about the same price as a local bus ride ($3).

But if you go one extra stop to 125th, that fare is almost TRIPLE off-peak ($8.50) and almost QUADRUPLE during peak ($11.25). If I lived in Westchester I'd complain, too.

Oh yeah, Stamford to Fordham is half the price compared to Stamford to Grand Central. These new Bronx stations will probably be in the same zone as Fordham

2 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

And that is why the Fordham stop is SO popular because many of them get off and take the subway from there. That trend started years ago after the first series of fare hikes. I'm sure Metro-North is aware of it too and would prefer it that way, this way they don't have to provide more service.  Same deal with the Marble Hill stop. Truth be told, the  Board has had discussions about how much higher they can go with the fares before they start pushing people into their cars, because they are becoming far too high. Even for me from Riverdale, if I pay for two peak tickets, and use the Hudson Raillink Shuttle bus, it's $25.00 round trip. I could drive into Manhattan and park for less. I just pay it because I set aside monies for travel each month and it's whatever, but if you're really watching your budget, that's like a nice take-out lunch right there in Manhattan. lol I thought about it a few years ago in fact when I was ordering lunch, and previously, I really never gave it much thought, but the fare has been going up so quickly that you start to pay attention, as I've had to allocate more monies to my monthly travel budget (pre-COVID anyway, not now).

I get off at Fordham lol, that or Yankees-East 153rd St

MTA will continue to increase the fare by percentages so the fare between Manhattan zone and intermediate will become wider and wider

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 hour ago, Mtatransit said:

Its not being "against  workers". By reducing the amount of manpower you can provide more service for the same cost.

Labor cost is one of the biggest expense for commuter rail. That and the peak nature of commuter rail (less so for MNR more so for LIRR)

They have different uses, yes, but right now the service  provides to the city is absolutely ridiculous. Maybe less for MNR, but for the LIRR, service in the city is both expensive and infrequent, and they wonder why everyone takes the bus to the subway. It doesn't have to be the subway, but it HAS to be better than the service currently provided.

LIRR doesn't even have intermediate tickets for Queens riders.

Usually its suburbanites complaining about the crowding/safety of the subway. 

Thats why there is the East Side Access

Yonkers is not nearly as bad as Hempstead. I rarely see anyone board at Hempstead LIRR. Most of the branch ridership came from Queens or Garden City

Oh yeah, Stamford to Fordham is half the price compared to Stamford to Grand Central. These new Bronx stations will probably be in the same zone as Fordham

I get off at Fordham lol, that or Yankees-East 153rd St

MTA will continue to increase the fare by percentages so the fare between Manhattan zone and intermediate will become wider and wider

Yeah, but indrectly, it would mean job losses, whether intentional or not. That would be the result, and thinking that the  will provide more service... Please.... That's something else I don't get in this forum. The  is not going to say OH we're saving money with fewer workers, so let's run more service. They don't operate that way. The LIRR's focus is on Long Island, and that's a big part of the reason why they operate the way that they do. Years ago, the MNRR put out a statement regarding the service they provide in the South Bronx. They made it crystal clear that they are not looking to compete with the subway because they can't. They are a railroad. It should be obvious that the LIRR's focus is on getting people to and from Penn Station.

Pre-COVID, MNRR and the LIRR were both seeing record ridership, so it's not as if they need more City riders. They barely had enough trains to meet the demand, and the reality is they don't have the infrastructure to have all of the folks from the City riding. Lowering the fare won't matter. It's a railroad, not a subway.

The only reason the intermediate fares remained low is because Metro-North is well aware of who is using the trains there, and those people could not afford to pay higher fares. It's a question of demographics and them being nice. However, they can't keep doing that because the intermediate riders aren't their core ridership base. They want the people like me going from Riverdale to Grand Central. That's who their main base is that will pay the high fares, otherwise, there wouldn't be enough ridership from those intermediate riders to justify the service they run. Don't get me wrong, they take up some seats, but the bulk of the ridership is to and from Grand Central.

Edited May 24, 2021 by Via Garibaldi 8

[Deucey]

On 5/23/2021 at 6:21 AM, B35 via Church said:

Not at all..... Your failure to nullify the analogy doesn't mean my whole argument was based on the analogy.... I could've made the argument without it....

You can commence doing Muttley laughs or whatever, but when it's all said & done, you're a transplant that's made more than his fair share of California references as it relates to how NY should do things... The fact that you tried to separate yourself from transplants with that assimilated NY-er bit was slick, but it wasn't that slick....

First you tried to shit on natives in that first reply of this side discussion to @R10 2952, then it became oh, let's form voltron with us same B&M-ing natives to make transplants & hipsters get in line (or send them back running to wherever they came from).... That's that snake in the grass shit; the only people really that should be on that type of energy when it comes to getting transplants & hipsters in line, are the natives...

Yawn.

I mean, props to you for trying to find a way to win an argument you started with a piss-poor analogy and deliberate misreading and misinterpretation of a post, but yawn at the latest attempt to prove yourself superior over others on transit stuff.

I’m sure your parents might be proud, but I’m bored.

Aight then.

[B35 via Church]

2 hours ago, Deucey said:

Yawn.

I mean, props to you for trying to find a way to win an argument you started with a piss-poor analogy and deliberate misreading and misinterpretation of a post, but yawn at the latest attempt to prove yourself superior over others on transit stuff.

I’m sure your parents might be proud, but I’m bored.

Aight then.

That's nice, but again, none of this changes the fact that you're still a transplant, Mr. assimilated New Yorker... That was the reason you even tried to nullify my "piss-poor" analogy in the first place... You just didn't like the argument that was being made in that post, separate from the analogy, because it struck a nerve.... Nobody else would've cared, otherwise... It wasn't wholly about the merit of the analogy & you know it...

Deliberate misreading & misinterpretation of a post... More like a convenient deflection on your part to not have other readers on here realize that was yet another one of your slick little comments about native New Yorkers.... Latest attempt to prove myself superior over others on transit stuff? I'm not in any of this to be superior over anybody & you can spare me your projected inferiority complex with that.... I mean, coming from a Californian on a NYC based message board that habitually makes commentary & inquiries as to why things are done the way they are in this state, instead of how they're done in California, that means much of nothing anyway.... You barely engage in any real in-depth NYC based transit conversations on here anyway... But let there be something related to politics, oh, your fervor is on quite the display on that.....

Your yawns, your muttley laughs, your aight then's, your weak insults about my parents being proud, your feigned conveyed boredoms, this that & the third... All of that is nothing more than dismissive tactics posed as a cloak to how bothered you really are about the transplant bit.... So bored, that you decided to disrupt a good flowing transit conversation almost 30 posts deep after your penultimate post in here with this underwhelming attempt at a get-back....

What's really good with you....

[Deucey]

3 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

That's nice, but again, none of this changes the fact that you're still a transplant, Mr. assimilated New Yorker... That was the reason you even tried to nullify my "piss-poor" analogy in the first place... You just didn't like the argument that was being made in that post, separate from the analogy, because it struck a nerve.... Nobody else would've cared, otherwise... It wasn't wholly about the merit of the analogy & you know it...

Deliberate misreading & misinterpretation of a post... More like a convenient deflection on your part to not have other readers on here realize that was yet another one of your slick little comments about native New Yorkers.... Latest attempt to prove myself superior over others on transit stuff? I'm not in any of this to be superior over anybody & you can spare me your projected inferiority complex with that.... I mean, coming from a Californian on a NYC based message board that habitually makes commentary & inquiries as to why things are done the way they are in this state, instead of how they're done in California, that means much of nothing anyway.... You barely engage in any real in-depth NYC based transit conversations on here anyway... But let there be something related to politics, oh, your fervor is on quite the display on that.....

Your yawns, your muttley laughs, your aight then's, your weak insults about my parents being proud, your feigned conveyed boredoms, this that & the third... All of that is nothing more than dismissive tactics posed as a cloak to how bothered you really are about the transplant bit.... So bored, that you decided to disrupt a good flowing transit conversation almost 30 posts deep after your penultimate post in here with this underwhelming attempt at a get-back....

What's really good with you....

Now an essay.

Since your ego’s invested in this, go ahead with the last word. I won’t read it - like I haven’t with anything else you’ve written since Saturday (because 1) it’s all from a flawed premise - that piss-poor analogy, and 2) I’ve watched you for years throw fits whenever you’ve “decided” to come for someone that had nerve to disagree with you OR agree with you but not enough), but I’m sure you’ll feel better.

I’ll even do you the solid of not even replying to your future comments unless I have to moderate something in them.

Floor’s yours.

[B35 via Church]

46 minutes ago, Deucey said:

Now an essay.

Since your ego’s invested in this, go ahead with the last word. I won’t read it - like I haven’t with anything else you’ve written since Saturday (because 1) it’s all from a flawed premise - that piss-poor analogy, and 2) I’ve watched you for years throw fits whenever you’ve “decided” to come for someone that had nerve to disagree with you OR agree with you but not enough), but I’m sure you’ll feel better.

I’ll even do you the solid of not even replying to your future comments unless I have to moderate something in them.

Floor’s yours.

Same dismissive, passive-aggressive tactics (you read what was said, so cut the crap) with a boldfaced lie thrown in there this time.... Par for the course for you.... Good job...  Anything to shy away from not addressing being the very (obnoxious) transplant you want to team up with NY natives with, to get other transplants (presumably, the ones we natives are supposed to believe are worse than you are) to fall in line..... You aint by no means any different & some of your comments in this thread alone (never mind the ones made since you've been on this forum) perfectly exude your holier than thou attitude when it comes to natives of this city....

Imagine wanting to move to a city, throw shots at the natives in that city, and then want & try to have that city transformed into the locale that you migrated from.... This is what you transplants do... But never mind us B&M-ing natives worth "assimilating" with, speaking of flawed.....

That bit at the end there, yeah, you go do you... You got it, sport..... You're not here for in-depth transit talks anyway & you don't say much of anything worthwhile in the ones you do briefly poke your head in.

Go Lakers.

[bobtehpanda]

On 5/23/2021 at 5:31 PM, R10 2952 said:

As to Penn Station Access, wasn't there also some discussion about reviving the Port Morris Branch for a Harlem Line connection to Penn?

Doubt it would be doable since in addition to the ROW being built over in some places, the line itself had some very tight twists and turns.

I haven't heard of it. TBH I would put that up there with "direct LIRR train from WTC to JFK" in terms of probability.

On 5/23/2021 at 8:21 PM, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Yeah, but indrectly, it would mean job losses, whether intentional or not. That would be the result, and thinking that the  will provide more service... Please.... That's something else I don't get in this forum. The  is not going to say OH we're saving money with fewer workers, so let's run more service. They don't operate that way. The LIRR's focus is on Long Island, and that's a big part of the reason why they operate the way that they do. Years ago, the MNRR put out a statement regarding the service they provide in the South Bronx. They made it crystal clear that they are not looking to compete with the subway because they can't. They are a railroad. It should be obvious that the LIRR's focus is on getting people to and from Penn Station.

Pre-COVID, MNRR and the LIRR were both seeing record ridership, so it's not as if they need more City riders. They barely had enough trains to meet the demand, and the reality is they don't have the infrastructure to have all of the folks from the City riding. Lowering the fare won't matter. It's a railroad, not a subway.

So like, I'm not saying this would necessarily happen, but I do remember a few time the token booths question came up it involved transitioning people into new roles for the same pay or buying people out.

The railroads are crowded, in places. At least the LIRR has the examples of the Far Rockaway, Long Beach, and West Hempstead branches with poor ridership. The most well utilized parts of the Port Washington Branch are almost entirely in the city; I think the last time they published station counts Bayside was a top ten station. And soon the Atlantic Branch is going to get severed with a dinky little shuttle.

It would be no bad thing to increase utilization for these routes with cheaper fares, since empty seats don't generate revenue, and the City Ticket, the Atlantic Ticket, and the slash in Zone 3 monthly prices are steps in the right direction, even if they're poorly coordinated and communicated.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 hour ago, bobtehpanda said:

I haven't heard of it. TBH I would put that up there with "direct LIRR train from WTC to JFK" in terms of probability.

So like, I'm not saying this would necessarily happen, but I do remember a few time the token booths question came up it involved transitioning people into new roles for the same pay or buying people out.

The railroads are crowded, in places. At least the LIRR has the examples of the Far Rockaway, Long Beach, and West Hempstead branches with poor ridership. The most well utilized parts of the Port Washington Branch are almost entirely in the city; I think the last time they published station counts Bayside was a top ten station. And soon the Atlantic Branch is going to get severed with a dinky little shuttle.

It would be no bad thing to increase utilization for these routes with cheaper fares, since empty seats don't generate revenue, and the City Ticket, the Atlantic Ticket, and the slash in Zone 3 monthly prices are steps in the right direction, even if they're poorly coordinated and communicated.

Sure, and the  's argument has been that they don't have the capacity to handle all of those people, so the answer isn't to overwhelm the railroads by trying to overtax capacity. The answer is to improve the subway system...

[R10 2952]

In all fairness, it goes both ways.  Yes, there absolutely need to be more subways (especially in underserved parts of Brooklyn and Queens), but that does not necessarily preclude the MNRR and LIRR from doing a better job at serving stops within city limits.  Their predecessors, the New York Central as well as Pennsylvania Railroads, served much more non-terminal stops in the city, all the way back to the beginning in the 1840s- same thing goes for when the SIR was a part of the Baltimore & Ohio Railroad.  This practice continued well into the '60 and '70s (in some cases even until the '90s), long after the subways had already been built.

The LIRR's current obsession with only wanting to serve Penn (and soon GCT) via the Main Line is a newer phenomenon, and frankly it's a disservice to city residents who live along other branches and want better transit options, as well as a disservice to the people coming in from LI who don't want to deal with the giant crowds at the Manhattan terminals.

 

 

[bobtehpanda]

1 hour ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Sure, and the  's argument has been that they don't have the capacity to handle all of those people, so the answer isn't to overwhelm the railroads by trying to overtax capacity. The answer is to improve the subway system...

But they do, otherwise they wouldn't be rolling out CityTicket or Atlantic Ticket or these Zone 3 cuts in the first place.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

6 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

But they do, otherwise they wouldn't be rolling out CityTicket or Atlantic Ticket or these Zone 3 cuts in the first place.

CityTicket is not new and is only during weekends and has been out for many years. Atlantic Ticket is not for Penn Station, so the point really was that they don't have the capacity to operate like a subway. A ticket at $4.50 is still more expensive than $2.75 by almost $2.00, and the Atlantic Ticket is still $5.00, almost double the cost of a subway ride, so both of them will mean more people take the railroad, but they also know it won't mean they having to add extra service to do so or them having to worry about capacity issues. That's the big difference. Some people have proposed having the fare be the same as a subway ride at $2.75, which is absurd and would create capacity issues for the railroad.

Edited May 27, 2021 by Via Garibaldi 8