East side access City Terminal Zone

[AJ023]

Will stops on City Terminal Zone stations such as Woodside, Forest Hills and Kew Gardens get both Penn Station and Grand Central Station trains once the project is completed?

Im curious as to how they will schedule trains.  

[bobtehpanda]

On 5/29/2021 at 5:54 PM, AJ023 said:

Will stops on City Terminal Zone stations such as Woodside, Forest Hills and Kew Gardens get both Penn Station and Grand Central Station trains once the project is completed?

Im curious as to how they will schedule trains.  

Any sample timetables were from long ago so are probably irrelevant now, but I do remember that the documents for Port Washington Yard expansion showed four trains to Penn and four trains to GC per hour during the peak, alternating.

I would imagine, at minimum, most branches looking like that, and the Atlantic Branches being replaced with services to Penn (given that when ESA opens it's highly likely Penn will become the less popular terminal)

[B35 via Church]

On 5/29/2021 at 8:54 PM, AJ023 said:

Will stops on City Terminal Zone stations such as Woodside, Forest Hills and Kew Gardens get both Penn Station and Grand Central Station trains once the project is completed?

Im curious as to how they will schedule trains.  

Same (about the curiosity bit)....

Anyway, I can't see those stations getting only service to one of the two stations.... The question as I see it is, how much (service) of one over the other, will those stations get over the other.....

On 5/31/2021 at 3:38 PM, bobtehpanda said:

....(given that when ESA opens it's highly likely Penn will become the less popular terminal)

The more I think about ESA, the more I still think more people will gravitate towards Penn..... I'm excluding people using the LIRR to get to/from Manhattan for night time activities & things of the sort when I say that too....

[mzxeternal]

I think Penn and GCT will both be nearly equally as popular. If you're heading to midtown or uptown, GCT is the ideal destination. But if you're heading Midtown West, Downtown or Downtown Brooklyn, Penn is the better bet.  2/3 or the A subway from Penn is a faster route downtown most of the time than the 4/5 N/R/W from GCT. But GCT is the ticket East side and central midtown.

 

 

Edited June 2, 2021 by mzxeternal

[bobtehpanda]

1 hour ago, B35 via Church said:

Same (about the curiosity bit)....

Anyway, I can't see those stations getting only service to one of the two stations.... The question as I see it is, how much (service) of one over the other, will those stations get over the other.....

The more I think about ESA, the more I still think more people will gravitate towards Penn..... I'm excluding people using the LIRR to get to/from Manhattan for night time activities & things of the sort when I say that too....

 

11 minutes ago, mzxeternal said:

I think Penn and GCT will both be nearly equally as popular. If you're heading to midtown or uptown, GCT is the ideal destination. But if you're heading Midtown West, Downtown or Downtown Brooklyn, Penn is the better bet.  2/3 or the A subway from Penn is a faster route downtown most of the time than the 4/5 N/R/W from GCT. But GCT is the ticket East side and central midtown.

The numbers are quite severe, something like 75% of jobs in Manhattan are a 15 minute walk from Grand Central, and that was from a study in 2004; it's almost definitely shifted further away from Downtown since then.

If you're heading to Downtown Brooklyn you'd be better off hoofing it to Platform F at Jamaica.

[I love NY]

On 5/30/2021 at 2:54 AM, AJ023 said:

Will stops on City Terminal Zone stations such as Woodside, Forest Hills and Kew Gardens get both Penn Station and Grand Central Station trains once the project is completed?

Im curious as to how they will schedule trains.  

On the wiki page of East Side Access there is written that the trains are expected to run 24 hours a day and that the plans call for 24 trains per hour to run to Grand Central during peak morning hours, with an estimated 162,000 passenger trips to and from Grand Central on an average weekday.

[shiznit1987]

My fear is that Woodside service will be seriously cut now that there will be little to zero LIRR to  traffic. Taking the Q53 to catch the train to Penn is a favorite mode of getting to the city when the QM15 isn't an option. 

[bobtehpanda]

19 hours ago, shiznit1987 said:

My fear is that Woodside service will be seriously cut now that there will be little to zero LIRR to  traffic. Taking the Q53 to catch the train to Penn is a favorite mode of getting to the city when the QM15 isn't an option. 

...do people switch from the to Penn in significant numbers? I can't imagine that'd save a whole lot of time if you account for walking and waiting time, over say to 7th Avenue, and it would cost a lot more as a zone 1-3 fare.

[B35 via Church]

On 6/13/2021 at 6:28 PM, shiznit1987 said:

My fear is that Woodside service will be seriously cut now that there will be little to zero LIRR to  traffic......

That xfer scenario isn't all too high to begin with though....

If LIRR Woodside service does see serious cuts due to ESA, pretty certain what you bring up here wouldn't be a reason....

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

Does the ESA plan mean that all service originating from Long Island/eastern terminals will go to either Penn or Grand Central? If that's the case, I personally feel that there should be some direct service (during peak hours at the very least) from Atlantic Terminal. 

I personally see Grand Central as a more attractive option for more of the Midtown crowd (definitely for East Midtown) . Penn would still be useful for west Midtown and for parts of Lower Manhattan. 

[R10 2952]

45 minutes ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

Does the ESA plan mean that all service originating from Long Island/eastern terminals will go to either Penn or Grand Central? If that's the case, I personally feel that there should be some direct service (during peak hours at the very least) from Atlantic Terminal. 

I personally see Grand Central as a more attractive option for more of the Midtown crowd (definitely for East Midtown) . Penn would still be useful for west Midtown and for parts of Lower Manhattan. 

Yeah, I get the impression that Penn service will drop off significantly once ESA opens.  Even more reason to maintain direct service to Altantic-Flatbush in my opinion, for people trying to reach Manhattan below 14th.

On some level, I'm surprised the High Line was never used for passenger service; if I recall correctly, the street-level railroad it replaced did provide passenger service to Saint John's Park.

[bobtehpanda]

55 minutes ago, R10 2952 said:

Yeah, I get the impression that Penn service will drop off significantly once ESA opens.  Even more reason to maintain direct service to Altantic-Flatbush in my opinion, for people trying to reach Manhattan below 14th.

On some level, I'm surprised the High Line was never used for passenger service; if I recall correctly, the street-level railroad it replaced did provide passenger service to Saint John's Park.

There pretty much isn't any good way to get to street level from a proper station due to all the meandering into warehouses it did. In fact, the relative lack of street access points is a problem for it as a park as well.

Also, it was built to service a warehouse district and docks that largely stopped after containerization, but that also had the effect of removing any real reason to go there.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

On 6/14/2021 at 9:28 PM, R10 2952 said:

Yeah, I get the impression that Penn service will drop off significantly once ESA opens.  Even more reason to maintain direct service to Altantic-Flatbush in my opinion, for people trying to reach Manhattan below 14th.

On some level, I'm surprised the High Line was never used for passenger service; if I recall correctly, the street-level railroad it replaced did provide passenger service to Saint John's Park.

Agreed. I'm really not a fan of LIRR's plan to turn Brooklyn service into a shuttle to/from Jamaica.

[TOSironi]

I'm not sure if this has been asked already, but do we know what lines of the LIRR will serve Grand central and what line will serve Penn Station? 

[N6 Limited]

On 6/16/2021 at 4:32 PM, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Agreed. I'm really not a fan of LIRR's plan to turn Brooklyn service into a shuttle to/from Jamaica.

It would have been nice if they could have extended the Atlantic Branch to the Fulton Hub downtown as proposed.

[Lex]

6 minutes ago, N6 Limited said:

It would have been nice if they could have extended the Atlantic Branch to the Fulton Hub downtown as proposed.

Why stop there? Feed it into Grand Central and you can provide one-seat rides between Flushing and Downtown Brooklyn.

[paulrivera]

Holy old thread, Batman.

I do have a question though: I recall someone on one of the social media channels saying offhandedly that they're looking into LIRR/MNRR joint ticketing after East Side Access opens, so that for example not only a Fordham to Jamaica ticket would be available on one single ticket, but that it would be discounted somewhat as opposed to buying a Fordham-GCT and a Penn-Jamaica ticket separately. Does anyone know if that will actually be a thing?

[Gotham Bus Co.]

On 6/16/2021 at 4:32 PM, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Agreed. I'm really not a fan of LIRR's plan to turn Brooklyn service into a shuttle to/from Jamaica.

 

Partial solution (off-peak): Combine some of the Brooklyn-Jamaica shuttles with the West Hempstead shuttles and run through between West Hempstead and Brooklyn. 

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

If the M7 fleet test on the Oyster Bay Branch ended up succeeding, what I would have considered is to have the West Hempstead and Oyster Bay Branches operate to Atlantic Terminal. Then in between those trains, have shuttle service.

During the peak though, I would retain as much the trips from Atlantic Terminal to the other branches as possible. Not everyone is going to Midtown, and I think serving Atlantic with very little through service would hurt (even with the frequencies). 

[Gotham Bus Co.]

1 hour ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

If the M7 fleet test on the Oyster Bay Branch ended up succeeding, what I would have considered is to have the West Hempstead and Oyster Bay Branches operate to Atlantic Terminal. Then in between those trains, have shuttle service.

Why not a third Brooklyn-only branch?  (Long Beach? Far Rockaway?) 

[checkmatechamp13]

On 5/7/2022 at 3:02 PM, Gotham Bus Co. said:

Partial solution (off-peak): Combine some of the Brooklyn-Jamaica shuttles with the West Hempstead shuttles and run through between West Hempstead and Brooklyn. 

I'm pretty sure that is the tentative plan for off-peak. Definitely makes a lot of sense. 

21 hours ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

If the M7 fleet test on the Oyster Bay Branch ended up succeeding, what I would have considered is to have the West Hempstead and Oyster Bay Branches operate to Atlantic Terminal. Then in between those trains, have shuttle service.

During the peak though, I would retain as much the trips from Atlantic Terminal to the other branches as possible. Not everyone is going to Midtown, and I think serving Atlantic with very little through service would hurt (even with the frequencies). 

I think the LIRR should be more consistent with regards to service patterns. I think it makes more sense to have one or maybe two western terminals per branch, and just work on slotting the trains correctly and timing the transfers well to the best extent possible. 

[B35 via Church]

On 5/8/2022 at 6:25 PM, checkmatechamp13 said:

I think the LIRR should be more consistent with regards to service patterns. I think it makes more sense to have one or maybe two western terminals per branch, and just work on slotting the trains correctly and timing the transfers well to the best extent possible. 

Lol.... Forget it... Folks along the Babylon branch engages in, and will continue to engage in way too much bitching for any sort of a balancement or consistency... They're like the Pittsburgh Penguins of the LIRR (analogy meaning, the LIRR brass, at minimum, is in bed with those folks & by hook or by crook, they'll end up getting their way)....

[bobtehpanda]

On 5/7/2022 at 12:01 PM, paulrivera said:

Holy old thread, Batman.

I do have a question though: I recall someone on one of the social media channels saying offhandedly that they're looking into LIRR/MNRR joint ticketing after East Side Access opens, so that for example not only a Fordham to Jamaica ticket would be available on one single ticket, but that it would be discounted somewhat as opposed to buying a Fordham-GCT and a Penn-Jamaica ticket separately. Does anyone know if that will actually be a thing?

At this point, doing so would basically be free money for the MTA, since zero people currently make that trip right now due to how much of a PITA it is, and how expensive it is.

The Atlantic Ticket was actually revenue positive despite the fare cuts, which is impressive if you consider how poorly it was advertised.

[shiznit1987]

19 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Lol.... Forget it... Folks along the Babylon branch engages in, and will continue to engage in way too much bitching for any sort of a balancement or consistency... They're like the Pittsburgh Penguins of the LIRR (analogy meaning, the LIRR brass, at minimum, is in bed with those folks & by hook or by crook, they'll end up getting their way)....

I thought the Ronkonkoma branch was the "favorite son" of the LIRR, seeing as almost all it's trains run express from Penn > Woodside > Jamaica. Babylon trains often are the ones slowing down to make Forest Hills and Kew Gardens. 

At any rate, common sense would say that rather than a total mixup of schedules, that they stick with a simple plan: Babylon, Ronkonkoma, Huntington, Long Beach and Port Wash trains all either serve Penn or GCT. Hemsptead and Far Rock alternate to provide half-hourly service to Brooklyn. Make track 1 @ Jamaica the "Penn Station" track, Track 2 the "Grand Central" track and Track 3 the "Brooklyn" track. 

[Gotham Bus Co.]

8 minutes ago, shiznit1987 said:

At any rate, common sense would say that rather than a total mixup of schedules, that they stick with a simple plan: Babylon, Ronkonkoma, Huntington, Long Beach and Port Wash trains all either serve Penn or GCT. Hemsptead and Far Rock alternate to provide half-hourly service to Brooklyn. Make track 1 @ Jamaica the "Penn Station" track, Track 2 the "Grand Central" track and Track 3 the "Brooklyn" track. 

What about West Hempstead? And isn't Brooklyn supposed to get 20-minute service? Maybe add West Hempstead to the Brooklyn rotation.