If you had to eliminate at least one subway line from the system, which would it be

[randomnewyorker23]

Apologies if there is already a thread for this but I was just wondering

[Theli11]

eliminating the  would be an improvement. Eliminating anything else would seriously hurt the areas they cover.

[BreeddekalbL]

If you eliminate the do you increase the ?

[Theli11]

12 minutes ago, BreeddekalbL said:

If you eliminate the do you increase the ?

Why wouldn't you? the only merge the  would have is with the  so it would just have to split on the bridge now. 

[LGA Link N Train]

I would also agree with Eliminating the . Best way to do it without adjusting any infrastructure would be to have the  corver the frequency of both the and between Jamaica Center and Broadway Junction, which means that 2 trains out of 12 could Short Turn at Broadway Junction as to not mess with the frequences West of it. That way, you'f maintain a 6 minute headway between Broadway Junction and Myrtle, and between Essex and Broad Street. If you wanted MORE than 10-12 TPH From eliminating the , then that means that you would have to address the elephant in the room, that being Myrtle Junction. Could also mention the Willliamsburg Bridge and the tight curves located on both ends of the bridge, but that's beyond the spoce of what you're asking

[Trainmaster5]

It seems that some people don't know the reasoning behind the  combo. They are a direct replacement for the BMT Jamaica line A and B service from 168th St to Eastern Parkway. It was originally created to relieve the overcrowding and resultant delays on the line during the rush hours. Some stations like Sutphin Blvd would be severely crowded because of the LIRR or 160th, 168 because of the buses discharging in the vicinity. The A-B service, like today's   combo was created to relieve the jams by having selected trains skip some stops with the followers stopping at the passed stops. Absent a third track on the line this is the best that can be done. The  is a  train, period. It's not a separate line. Eliminating the  just recreates the problem that existed beforehand. BTW that A-B combo I mentioned did run express to Manhattan in the rush. We had local service originating at Atlantic, Eastern Parkway, and a few coming from Rockaway Parkway that used the flyover from the Canarsie to the Broadway ( Brooklyn) lines. That was the # 14 service to Canal St while the Jamaica trains were #15 and the Canarsie was #16. Of course with the changing demographics of today's  and the demolition done at Atlantic Ave it looks like today's service pattern can't be modified much. Just my opinion and history lesson. Carry on.

[Theli11]

1 hour ago, Trainmaster5 said:

It seems that some people don't know the reasoning behind the  combo. They are a direct replacement for the BMT Jamaica line A and B service from 168th St to Eastern Parkway. It was originally created to relieve the overcrowding and resultant delays on the line during the rush hours. Some stations like Sutphin Blvd would be severely crowded because of the LIRR or 160th, 168 because of the buses discharging in the vicinity. The A-B service, like today's   combo was created to relieve the jams by having selected trains skip some stops with the followers stopping at the passed stops. Absent a third track on the line this is the best that can be done. The  is a  train, period. It's not a separate line. Eliminating the  just recreates the problem that existed beforehand. BTW that A-B combo I mentioned did run express to Manhattan in the rush. We had local service originating at Atlantic, Eastern Parkway, and a few coming from Rockaway Parkway that used the flyover from the Canarsie to the Broadway ( Brooklyn) lines. That was the # 14 service to Canal St while the Jamaica trains were #15 and the Canarsie was #16. Of course with the changing demographics of today's  and the demolition done at Atlantic Ave it looks like today's service pattern can't be modified much. Just my opinion and history lesson. Carry on.

I think the reasoning behind it is understandable for the time. But how Jamaica is now I don’t see much purpose of continuing the  service unless it did something different/useful. If not the  it’s be the  so we can boost up  service as much as we can though the capacity on Broadway, 4th Av and QBL might not allow that. Any other route would be detrimental to the places that they serve and without any replacement there would be outrage, or just too much readjustment to be made. In short, the  is the weak link that can be easily deleted replaced by  service and we can call it a day. 

[Trainmaster5]

1 hour ago, Theli11 said:

I think the reasoning behind it is understandable for the time. But how Jamaica is now I don’t see much purpose of continuing the  service unless it did something different/useful. If not the  it’s be the  so we can boost up  service as much as we can though the capacity on Broadway, 4th Av and QBL might not allow that. Any other route would be detrimental to the places that they serve and without any replacement there would be outrage, or just too much readjustment to be made. In short, the  is the weak link that can be easily deleted replaced by  service and we can call it a day. 

I'm not sure if you are looking at the same picture that I am. The reason for the service's creation was to avoid the delays on the Jamaica line. All it takes is one train taking on a heavy load and that train and it's followers are automatically late. If you've ever ridden the northbound IRT in the morning rush hour the same thing happens at Atlantic Avenue with the subway transfers and the LIRR arriving at the same time. I'd liken it to bus bunching except on the Jamaica line trains are at the mercy of the overcrowded one. Of course RCC could skip the train and bypass some stops but it's easier for them to run the current setup. If you ran nothing else but trains and had to skip a few stops here and there you just screwed over a passenger who needed a bypassed stop. With the present system at least passengers can use their selected intervals by planning ahead. The general idea is to take the riders from point A to point B with minimal disruptions. That's what I was taught at least. Carry on. 

[randomnewyorker23]

With most people on this, I would eliminate the , and make a  express service between possibly Myrtle and Broadway Junction.

[Trainmaster5]

31 minutes ago, randomnewyorker23 said:

With most people on this, I would eliminate the , and make a  express service between possibly Myrtle and Broadway Junction.

Question for you. What happens to the local station riders in this scenario? 

[randomnewyorker23]

11 minutes ago, Trainmaster5 said:

Question for you. What happens to the local station riders in this scenario? 

local service still as is.

[Trainmaster5]

50 minutes ago, randomnewyorker23 said:

local service still as is.

So you want to eliminate the service,  add seven stops to the rush hour train to cover for the eliminated and add an express between Eastern Parkway and Myrtle Avenue if I read your proposal right. Where's the benefit for anyone coming from Jamaica? You've slowed their commute. 

[darkstar8983]

Yeah I do agree that the  skip stop pattern should remain. There’s no other economically feasible way to run express service east of Myrtle Av without severely reducing service along the Jamaica Line
 

just as a tangent, I’m amazed that the IRT runs as well as it does despite the  train and it’s service pattern. Having to cross over from local to express, the frequency of merges, and to a lesser extent the  merge at 142nd St. Some restructuring should be done there

Edited June 25, 2021 by darkstar8983

[Lex]

7 minutes ago, darkstar8983 said:

Yeah I do agree that the  skip stop pattern should remain. There’s no other economically feasible way to run express service east of Myrtle Av without severely reducing service along the Jamaica Line
 

just as a tangent, I’m amazed that the IRT runs as well as it does despite the  train and it’s service pattern. Having to cross over from local to express, the frequency of merges, and to a lesser extent the  merge at 142nd St. Some restructuring should be done there

Why do you think I'm always saying to do the rough equivalent of cardiac surgery?

[T to Dyre Avenue]

4 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

So you want to eliminate the service,  add seven stops to the rush hour train to cover for the eliminated and add an express between Eastern Parkway and Myrtle Avenue if I read your proposal right. Where's the benefit for anyone coming from Jamaica? You've slowed their commute. 

A  express between Eastern Parkway and Marcy would not be faster than the current skip-stop , which runs express only between Myrtle and Marcy (and has to merge back onto the local tracks to stop at Marcy)? A while back, I was in favor of starting/ending the  at Eastern Parkway making all stops to Marcy (alongside the  between Myrtle and Marcy), while running the  peak express between Eastern Parkway and Marcy. But that will require running more rush hour trains than what the  and  currently run, which Transit won't want to do. 

8 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

I'm not sure if you are looking at the same picture that I am. The reason for the service's creation was to avoid the delays on the Jamaica line. All it takes is one train taking on a heavy load and that train and it's followers are automatically late. If you've ever ridden the northbound IRT in the morning rush hour the same thing happens at Atlantic Avenue with the subway transfers and the LIRR arriving at the same time. I'd liken it to bus bunching except on the Jamaica line trains are at the mercy of the overcrowded one. Of course RCC could skip the train and bypass some stops but it's easier for them to run the current setup. If you ran nothing else but trains and had to skip a few stops here and there you just screwed over a passenger who needed a bypassed stop. With the present system at least passengers can use their selected intervals by planning ahead. The general idea is to take the riders from point A to point B with minimal disruptions. That's what I was taught at least. Carry on. 

I can see that as a valid reason for the 's creation (would have preferred they used a letter closer to J instead of skipping all the way to Z, but it is what it is), although Transit did attempt to sell it as way to speed riders between Jamaica and Lower Manhattan back in 1988. Most Manhattan-bound riders didn't go for it and took the overcrowded  from Parsons or Sutphin and still do today. I mean, if they really wanted to make the  competitive with the , then they would have built the third track/Jamaica Ave bypass and ran a service through the Chrystie Connection.  

They also run the  only for an hour in the morning and less than that in the evening, instead of running the  for the entire duration of morning and evening rush. I've always wondered why don't they run it for the whole of rush hours (the platform signs would have you believe they do). Is ridership on the  line so low during rush outside of that one hour in the morning and evening rush, that the  isn't need for the rest of rush hours? Is there some sort of "sweet spot" that ridership on any given line has to meet for skip-stop service to be justified? It was considered for the  line, but ultimately shelved, while  service started less than a year after  service did. But the  was scaled back to rush hours only in 1993, then was eliminated in 2005. From discussions I've read here and elsewhere, it sounds like it was considered, but not seriously, for the  and  lines, but not elsewhere. What kind of ridership do you need for skip-stop and how much is too much (the reason the  was eliminated)?

[Lawrence St]

In terms of if the  was doing 2010 style budget cuts again:

 - Eliminated

 - Eliminated (Replaced by Dyre Av huttle)

 - Eliminated

 - Reduced to 10 minutes

 - Truncated to 2nd Av

[4 via Mosholu]

4 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

In terms of if the  was doing 2010 style budget cuts again:

 - Eliminated

 - Eliminated (Replaced by Dyre Av huttle)

 - Eliminated

 - Reduced to 10 minutes

 - Truncated to 2nd Av

That would not work even by a longshot. The train is only there to pick up any passengers left behind by the train, the train can be at any place at any time (they could only afford to run the Dyre Avenue at night), the Pelham Bay Park Express is there for faster service to Pelham Bay Park starting from East 177 Street (there is a reason why the Express was expanded to a weekday peak operation), the Flushing Express does not need to be reduced even further, while the only way that the train can even go to Second Avenue is if it had a weekend schedule (it currently does not have one).

[FamousNYLover]

 Keep

 Keep

 Late night service elimate.

 Keep

Keep 

 Keep

 Keep

42nd St  Keep

 Keep both branches

 Keep.

 Keep.

 Keep

 Keep

 Keep

 Keep

 Peak express am from Myrtle Av-Broadway bet Marcy Av. Local stops east of Myrtle Av-Broadway

 Keep

 Keep

 Keep

 Keep

 Keep

 Eliminate.

Franklin Av  Keep

Rockaway Park  Keep

(SIR) Keep

 

[4 via Mosholu]

3 minutes ago, FamousNYLover said:

 Late night service eliminate

Keep the late night shuttle anyway.

3 minutes ago, FamousNYLover said:

 Peak express am from Myrtle Av-Broadway bet Marcy Av. Local stops east of Myrtle Av-Broadway

It would become such a problem to operate.

3 minutes ago, FamousNYLover said:

 Eliminate.

The train cannot easily be eliminated.

[Jsunflyguy]

I'm surprised no one has done anything wild yet. I'll throw in some read meat...:


Broad Channel  is eliminated. 

This will be replaced by full time splitting the . Service reliability will thusly require the  to be extended to Lefferts Blvd, and with this simple change will fulfill the ultimate Fantasy Map quest.

Edited June 25, 2021 by Jsunflyguy

[bobtehpanda]

19 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

It seems that some people don't know the reasoning behind the  combo. They are a direct replacement for the BMT Jamaica line A and B service from 168th St to Eastern Parkway. It was originally created to relieve the overcrowding and resultant delays on the line during the rush hours. Some stations like Sutphin Blvd would be severely crowded because of the LIRR or 160th, 168 because of the buses discharging in the vicinity. The A-B service, like today's   combo was created to relieve the jams by having selected trains skip some stops with the followers stopping at the passed stops. Absent a third track on the line this is the best that can be done. The  is a  train, period. It's not a separate line. Eliminating the  just recreates the problem that existed beforehand. BTW that A-B combo I mentioned did run express to Manhattan in the rush. We had local service originating at Atlantic, Eastern Parkway, and a few coming from Rockaway Parkway that used the flyover from the Canarsie to the Broadway ( Brooklyn) lines. That was the # 14 service to Canal St while the Jamaica trains were #15 and the Canarsie was #16. Of course with the changing demographics of today's  and the demolition done at Atlantic Ave it looks like today's service pattern can't be modified much. Just my opinion and history lesson. Carry on.

The BMT A/B service pattern was created way before the stole most of those passengers in 1988.

I haven't actually looked at the ridership tables in a bit, but I would imagine that over the past two decades we'd see something similar to the where ridership shifted towards the inner, gentrifying sections of the line so this is less of an issue.

[NewFlyer 230]

1 hour ago, Jsunflyguy said:

I'm surprised no one has done anything wild yet. I'll throw in some read meat...:


Broad Channel  is eliminated. 

This will be replaced by full time splitting the . Service reliability will thusly require the  to be extended to Lefferts Blvd, and with this simple change will fulfill the ultimate Fantasy Map quest.

I was thinking the same thing in regards to the Rockaway Park Shuttle being eliminated. I would simply replace it with the Q53 SBS. I would keep the  and  the way they are to reduce having to merge both at Euclid Ave & Rockaway Blvd. 
 

I was also thinking the Franklin Ave shuttle could go too if I had to eliminate something. 

[T to Dyre Avenue]

6 hours ago, 4 via Mosholu said:

Keep the late night shuttle anyway.

It would become such a problem to operate.

The train cannot easily be eliminated.

And yet in 2009-early 2010, the MTA were ready to do it. The  got saved when they decided to extend the  through the Chrystie Street connection (then later renamed it the ). The original service cuts actually called for an all-stop . 

1 hour ago, Jsunflyguy said:

I'm surprised no one has done anything wild yet. I'll throw in some read meat...:


Broad Channel  is eliminated. 

This will be replaced by full time splitting the . Service reliability will thusly require the  to be extended to Lefferts Blvd, and with this simple change will fulfill the ultimate Fantasy Map quest.

I was surprised the Rockaway Park ‘s actually survived the 2010 cuts. I thought for sure those trains would be goners. Same with the overnight  express between 148 and Times Square. 

Wouldn’t  and  service reliability suffer if they have to merge a third time between Euclid and Grant in order for the  to be extended to Lefferts?

Edited June 25, 2021 by T to Dyre Avenue
Proofreading

[Gotham Bus Co.]

6 hours ago, Jsunflyguy said:

Broad Channel  is eliminated. 

This will be replaced by full time splitting the . Service reliability will thusly require the  to be extended to Lefferts Blvd, and with this simple change will fulfill the ultimate Fantasy Map quest.

 

The Port Authority actually requested this arrangement when the AirTrain opened in 2003 (so that airport passengers would be more likely to go to Howard Beach for the $5 AirTrain rather than to Lefferts for a free transfer to the Q10).

 

Of course, even with this setup, there would still have to be a few peak-hour-peak-direction Lefferts  trips (compare to the existing Rock Park ). 

[randomnewyorker23]

Change of plans: The  express (a diamond <J> bullet would have been useful right about now) will be extended from Myrtle to Jamaica, my past proposal was inconvenient.