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If you had to eliminate at least one subway line from the system, which would it be


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On 6/24/2021 at 10:21 PM, Trainmaster5 said:

It seems that some people don't know the reasoning behind the (J)(Z) combo. They are a direct replacement for the BMT Jamaica line A and B service from 168th St to Eastern Parkway. It was originally created to relieve the overcrowding and resultant delays on the line during the rush hours. Some stations like Sutphin Blvd would be severely crowded because of the LIRR or 160th, 168 because of the buses discharging in the vicinity. The A-B service, like today's (J)(Z)  combo was created to relieve the jams by having selected trains skip some stops with the followers stopping at the passed stops. Absent a third track on the line this is the best that can be done. The (Z) is a (J) train, period. It's not a separate line. Eliminating the (Z) just recreates the problem that existed beforehand. BTW that A-B combo I mentioned did run express to Manhattan in the rush. We had local service originating at Atlantic, Eastern Parkway, and a few coming from Rockaway Parkway that used the flyover from the Canarsie to the Broadway ( Brooklyn) lines. That was the # 14 service to Canal St while the Jamaica trains were #15 and the Canarsie was #16. Of course with the changing demographics of today's (L) and the demolition done at Atlantic Ave it looks like today's service pattern can't be modified much. Just my opinion and history lesson. Carry on.

Actually, Atlantic Avenue on the (L) could be rebuilt to four and even six tracks (with what were the Snediker Avenue tracks in the old scenario being terminal/storage tracks) as not all of the infrastructre was torn down.  It could certainly be rebuilt to allow for a short-turn Broadway-Brooklyn train to terminate at Atlantic Avenue or even have the (L) terminate at Atlantic and have a full-time service from Broadway-Brooklyn to Canarsie since Atlantic Avenue and points "railroad north" are where the heavier ridership on the (L) is anyway. 

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Given the history lesson and reasoning behind why the (J)(Z) Skip-Stop is still existing today, wouldn't that mean that said Service Pattern can not be eliminated unless some Serious capital  investments are made to the Jamaica Line? Ones that the (MTA) (sadly) have no interest investing in?

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  • 1 month later...
Posted (edited)

I wouldn't remove the Z from the system just yet, I would make it run 4th avenue local with the northbound terminal being Chambers St and the southbound terminal being Coney Island-Stillwell Avenue via West End. It would be similar to the Nassau loop service pattern, but it wont ever touch the Manhattan Bridge ever again.

Edited by ActiveCity
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I'm of the opinion that both the (J) and (Z) need to run local west of Broadway Junction. Even with the pandemic, that part of Brooklyn has a lot of gentrification potential and trains really should be running every 5 minutes at all those stations. 

Without any major construction on the Jamaica Line, one possibility would be to run the (J) like the (6): local trains between Jamaica and Manhattan every 10 minutes, with additional trains running between Crescent St and Broad St. This would reduce ridership on the outer portion of the line but the inner portion of the line should more than make up for it. Jamaica to Downtown riders could be accommodated with LIRR fare integration instead. 

Otherwise, the only real candidate for removal would be to retire the (W), reroute the (R) to Astoria, and add some replacement line on QBL, but that would require a new (K) or rerouted (N) service. 

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1 hour ago, Lawrence St said:

By operation costs, I say the (3) and (5).

What do you do with 145th & Lenox Terminal stations? You don’t eliminate trains without a cause. 
 

if any train lines go, I’m picking the midday (B) service. Everyone else leave alone, but expand the (Z)‘s hours to 3 hour window each direction during peak with one midday round trip. Add 1 midday round trip on the (5) Bronx Express and bring back the (4) peak express service in the Bronx ———- or ——— super express making 2 stops in the Bronx, skip 125 & 86th St in Manhattan, with the first full stop at 59th St, GCT, US-14th, Brooklyn Bridge-City Hall, Fulton, Wall & Bowling Green being the last stop. 

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3 minutes ago, FLX9304 said:

What do you do with 145th & Lenox Terminal stations? You don’t eliminate trains without a cause. 
 

if any train lines go, I’m picking the midday (B) service. Everyone else leave alone, but expand the (Z)‘s hours to 3 hour window each direction during peak with one midday round trip. Add 1 midday round trip on the (5) Bronx Express and bring back the (4) peak express service in the Bronx ———- or ——— super express making 2 stops in the Bronx, skip 125 & 86th St in Manhattan, with the first full stop at 59th St, GCT, US-14th, Brooklyn Bridge-City Hall, Fulton, Wall & Bowling Green being the last stop. 

You close them. 148th stays as a yard. The (5) between 180th St & Dyre would also be abandoned since they have the lowest ridership in the system.

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6 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

You close them. 148th stays as a yard. The (5) between 180th St & Dyre would also be abandoned since they have the lowest ridership in the system.

You close them, you will have a series of massive protest from neighborhoods that serves both sides of the lines. There is no alternative on that side and bus service cannot handle crowds. 
 

if you close 145th & 148th St, then you will have to close Lenox Yard as well. 
 

both sides cannot be eliminated because of what area it serves. Especially after Gun Hill on the (5) just got renovated to have accessible elevators. With the exception of Dyre Ave, the other 4 stations do not have booths to change, but they have vending machines and HEET. Plus, the (5) shuttle operates an OPTÓ during night hours. 
nobody is gonna walk or take an Uber to Gun Hill station on the (2) especially if the Bx28/38 is extremely crowded. 

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Posted (edited)

To cut costs, I would say:

1. Eliminate the Weekday (W) train - Make the (N) train local in Manhattan between 34 St and Canal St in both directions (slightly boosted (N) service so that the service matches the Brooklyn headways of 6 minutes on the entire line). This would also reduce (R) train delays by reducing one of the merges in Manhattan.

2. Eliminate Rockaway Park (A) trains - Have customers use the (S) even during Rush hours.

3. Cut the (5) train Middays back from Flatbush Av to Bowling Green - Service running only between Bowling Green and Eastchester-Dyre Av

4. Eliminate (on paper) the <6> during Midday hours - it is already cancelled almost every day from 9AM to 3PM anyways. I would just run the (6) every six minutes the entire route (or every 12 minutes past Parkchester if Pelham Bay Park cannot handle six-minute headways).

 

5. Rush hour frequencies on several routes can be scaled back (i.e. the (M) and (R) towards 71 Av during the late shoulder of the PM Rush Hour and towards Manhattan from 71 Av in the mornings)

6. Weekend frequencies however need to be left alone since it appears that weekend ridership is about 70% of regular weekend ridership (2019 and back). 

7. Scale back rush hour service on the (E) and (F) trains slightly from 30 TPH to 24 TPH (eliminating the 179 St Rush hour (E) train trips and reducing the number of Kings Highway short-turn (F) trains - (F) trains can alternate between Kings Hwy and Stillwell Av each every 10 minutes).

 

8. SUPER IMPORTANT - EXPEDITE rollout of CBTC and ATO so that train end-to-end running times are reduced, maintenance costs are optimized, and service becomes more reliable, despite the reduced service frequency.

 

*Not much else can be cut because the trains should not be TOO crowded.

Edited by darkstar8983
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19 hours ago, darkstar8983 said:

To cut costs, I would say:

1. Eliminate the Weekday (W) train - Make the (N) train local in Manhattan between 34 St and Canal St in both directions (slightly boosted (N) service so that the service matches the Brooklyn headways of 6 minutes on the entire line). This would also reduce (R) train delays by reducing one of the merges in Manhattan.

2. Eliminate Rockaway Park (A) trains - Have customers use the (S) even during Rush hours.

3. Cut the (5) train Middays back from Flatbush Av to Bowling Green - Service running only between Bowling Green and Eastchester-Dyre Av

4. Eliminate (on paper) the <6> during Midday hours - it is already cancelled almost every day from 9AM to 3PM anyways. I would just run the (6) every six minutes the entire route (or every 12 minutes past Parkchester if Pelham Bay Park cannot handle six-minute headways).

 

5. Rush hour frequencies on several routes can be scaled back (i.e. the (M) and (R) towards 71 Av during the late shoulder of the PM Rush Hour and towards Manhattan from 71 Av in the mornings)

6. Weekend frequencies however need to be left alone since it appears that weekend ridership is about 70% of regular weekend ridership (2019 and back). 

7. Scale back rush hour service on the (E) and (F) trains slightly from 30 TPH to 24 TPH (eliminating the 179 St Rush hour (E) train trips and reducing the number of Kings Highway short-turn (F) trains - (F) trains can alternate between Kings Hwy and Stillwell Av each every 10 minutes).

 

8. SUPER IMPORTANT - EXPEDITE rollout of CBTC and ATO so that train end-to-end running times are reduced, maintenance costs are optimized, and service becomes more reliable, despite the reduced service frequency.

 

*Not much else can be cut because the trains should not be TOO crowded.

That was the 2010 budget crisis when the (W) was eliminated. The line operates Weekdays only. 
 

as for the (6), most trains run to 138th St-3rd Ave during the midday hours since they eliminated the switch east of Parkchester. 
 

don’t tell that to Queens Blvd travelers

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20 hours ago, darkstar8983 said:

3. Cut the (5) train Middays back from Flatbush Av to Bowling Green - Service running only between Bowling Green and Eastchester-Dyre Av

4. Eliminate (on paper) the <6> during Midday hours - it is already cancelled almost every day from 9AM to 3PM anyways. I would just run the (6) every six minutes the entire route (or every 12 minutes past Parkchester if Pelham Bay Park cannot handle six-minute headways).

They did this to the (5) train before, but it messed up the (4) train so much (since it ran down to Utica) that they had to eventually extend it over to the Bush during middays.

As far as the Pelham Bay Park <6> Express out of Pelham Bay Park is concerned, it cannot be easily eliminated during the middays as easily as the Flushing <7> Express was; it is necessary for it to continue during that period.

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4 hours ago, FLX9304 said:

That was the 2010 budget crisis when the (W) was eliminated. The line operates Weekdays only. 
 

as for the (6), most trains run to 138th St-3rd Ave during the midday hours since they eliminated the switch east of Parkchester. 
 

don’t tell that to Queens Blvd travelers

My original thought to the (W) idea was to have the (N) and (W) each every 12 minutes out of Astoria (slight rush hour service reduction), but then it seemed silly because then Brooklyn riders would be shafted.

They eliminated the (6) train switch past Parkchester?!?!?!?!! REALLY? Then how do the (6) trains short-turn? Do they just go towards the yard and relay at Westchester Sq-E. Tremont Av.?

 

Midday service frequency on the (2)(3)(4) and (5) should also be reduced from 8 minutes to 10 minutes.

Midday frequency on the (B)(C)(D)(G)(J)(M)(N)(R)(W) should be reduced to every 12 minutes. Service frequency on the (E) and (F) should be reduced from every 6-8 minutes to every 10 minutes. Reduce service frequency of the (7) and (L) trains from 5 minutes to every 6 minutes. 

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2 hours ago, darkstar8983 said:

My original thought to the (W) idea was to have the (N) and (W) each every 12 minutes out of Astoria (slight rush hour service reduction), but then it seemed silly because then Brooklyn riders would be shafted.

They eliminated the (6) train switch past Parkchester?!?!?!?!! REALLY? Then how do the (6) trains short-turn? Do they just go towards the yard and relay at Westchester Sq-E. Tremont Av.?

 

Midday service frequency on the (2)(3)(4) and (5) should also be reduced from 8 minutes to 10 minutes.

Midday frequency on the (B)(C)(D)(G)(J)(M)(N)(R)(W) should be reduced to every 12 minutes. Service frequency on the (E) and (F) should be reduced from every 6-8 minutes to every 10 minutes. Reduce service frequency of the (7) and (L) trains from 5 minutes to every 6 minutes. 

The (W) ends in Manhattan. Why would Brooklyn riders are effected? There are alternate routes they use, don’t need just the Broadway lines for anything other than going up & down that vehicle closed Ave. 

 

as for the (6) switch overs, they now go straight to the yard. 
 

Don’t touch the Midday service. The IRTs are doing just fine (Especially the (2) & (4))  Trains running every 12 minutes during middays is like trains running on a Sunday Schedule. Many rely on service less than 10 minutes on lines that is needed. The only time train frequencies get reduced is during construction or track work. No need to reduce anything at this time

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2 hours ago, FLX9304 said:

The (W) ends in Manhattan. Why would Brooklyn riders are effected? There are alternate routes they use, don’t need just the Broadway lines for anything other than going up & down that vehicle closed Ave. 

 

as for the (6) switch overs, they now go straight to the yard. 
 

Don’t touch the Midday service. The IRTs are doing just fine (Especially the (2) & (4))  Trains running every 12 minutes during middays is like trains running on a Sunday Schedule. Many rely on service less than 10 minutes on lines that is needed. The only time train frequencies get reduced is during construction or track work. No need to reduce anything at this time

I was referring to reduced (N) service in Brooklyn, sorry if I was vague.

as for the (6) thanks for explaining - hopefully it reduces delays on the (6) and <6> because now the express doesn’t have to wait for the locals to cross over. And considering how short the AM rush window is, it was just enough time for trains to make one round trip from Parkchester to Brooklyn Bridge and back

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On 6/25/2021 at 10:46 AM, 4 via Mosholu said:

That would not work even by a longshot. The (3) train is only there to pick up any passengers left behind by the (2) train, the (5) train can be at any place at any time (they could only afford to run the Dyre Avenue (SS) at night), the Pelham Bay Park <6> Express is there for faster service to Pelham Bay Park starting from East 177 Street (there is a reason why the Express was expanded to a weekday peak operation), the Flushing <7> Express does not need to be reduced even further, while the only way that the (B) train can even go to Second Avenue is if it had a weekend schedule (it currently does not have one).

The (3) swoops up the remaining passengers who didnt board the (1)/(2)

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