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(L) OPTO Program Cancellation - Why?


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Posted (edited)

Actually, many of the (L) stations are curved.  Lorimer, Graham, Broadway Junction, Bushwick-Aberdeen, just to name a few.  Only way to prevent all the curvature would be if they had gone with the original plan, and used the LIRR Evergreen Branch instead.  That ship sailed almost 100 years ago.

Edited by R10 2952
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Posted (edited)

You know, it's a good thing the R211 has that third screen. It could be used for cameras to aid door operation.

Oh wait. That's exactly what it's for.

The MTA is definitely thinking about this and the R211 will contain these proper OPTO provisions. Safety? You don't even need to stick you head out of the cab. Hoping they try it out.

Edited by LTA1992
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Posted (edited)

In China, I believe they have someone standing in the middle of the station at each station looking at the door. It's still OPTO but you have someone looking at the riders

Will a hybird platform controller and conductor position work, this way you have an employee at each station, but only one person operating each train.

The platform controller will give indication to the T/O that its safe to close the door with the flashlight, and of course there will be CCTV upgrades. Now that probably won't work for 14th Street-Union Square or East Tremont Ave, but it may work for the rest of the system

 

That being said, London Underground has numerous curves too and they converted to OPTO, with a generous retirement and reskilling package to the union

 

Edited by Mtatransit
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9 hours ago, Mtatransit said:

In China, I believe they have someone standing in the middle of the station at each station looking at the door. It's still OPTO but you have someone looking at the riders

Will a hybird platform controller and conductor position work, this way you have an employee at each station, but only one person operating each train.

The platform controller will give indication to the T/O that its safe to close the door with the flashlight, and of course there will be CCTV upgrades. Now that probably won't work for 14th Street-Union Square or East Tremont Ave, but it may work for the rest of the system

 

That being said, London Underground has numerous curves too and they converted to OPTO, with a generous retirement and reskilling package to the union

 

Yes, station agents should become portable platform controllers. Why is the state paying them close to $30/hr (I'm guessing the wage) to just sit in a booth watch TV and give us an attitude just to do their job? 

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To the curvature point: I think the precedent that most thoroughly puts the lie to the whole "curvature and length compromises OPTO" argument is Paris's RER. Many of its lines have been OPTO since the 1990s, and some run ten car trains of bilevel EMUs through stations which are packed and often quite curvy. Successful implementation obviously requires good investments in CCTV infrastructure (some of which the L already has), but it's really not impossible. 

(London's Thameslink is another good one)

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37 minutes ago, RR503 said:

To the curvature point: I think the precedent that most thoroughly puts the lie to the whole "curvature and length compromises OPTO" argument is Paris's RER. Many of its lines have been OPTO since the 1990s, and some run ten car trains of bilevel EMUs through stations which are packed and often quite curvy. Successful implementation obviously requires good investments in CCTV infrastructure (some of which the L already has), but it's really not impossible. 

(London's Thameslink is another good one)

Thank God I'm not the only one who's aware of what goes on around the world. People act like NYC is so unique compared to the world. Everything we talk about, in terms on innovation (OPTO, CBTC, platform doors, open gangway) are all VERY possible and should've all been implemented by now at least in parts of the system. 

 

Eventually when the dirty corrupted leaders expire, NYC will be in good hands hopefully, and the torch isn't passed down to the wrong ones. 

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21 hours ago, XcelsiorBoii4888 said:

Eventually when the dirty corrupted leaders expire, NYC will be in good hands hopefully, and the torch isn't passed down to the wrong ones. 

Does Andrew Cuomo have a son?

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Posted (edited)
On 7/11/2021 at 9:55 AM, XcelsiorBoii4888 said:

Thank God I'm not the only one who's aware of what goes on around the world. People act like NYC is so unique compared to the world. Everything we talk about, in terms on innovation (OPTO, CBTC, platform doors, open gangway) are all VERY possible and should've all been implemented by now at least in parts of the system. 

 

Eventually when the dirty corrupted leaders expire, NYC will be in good hands hopefully, and the torch isn't passed down to the wrong ones. 

Its not about how it can get done it can get done the technology is there..

Its ABOUT  the people who use the system  who act like they have no sense which is growing from a minority nearly every day...

The same ones who throw garbage on the train floors, Who vandalize it, Who assault my fellow  coworkers, who wander in the tunnels for kicks..

These are just a few examples.

Its the Mindset of the ones who use the system...

I been to other systems the people who use those systems are nothing like the ones here they respect their systems, these folks out here acting up do not.

Here's another reason why you'll never see OPTO implemented this way unlike other cities..

Accountability..

Edited by RTOMan
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8 hours ago, RTOMan said:

Its not about how it can get done it can get done the technology is there..

Its ABOUT  the people who use the system  who act like they have no sense which is growing from a minority nearly every day...

The same ones who throw garbage on the train floors, Who vandalize it, Who assault my fellow  coworkers, who wander in the tunnels for kicks..

These are just a few examples.

Its the Mindset of the ones who use the system...

I been to other systems the people who use those systems are nothing like the ones here they respect their systems, these folks out here acting up do not.

Here's another reason why you'll never see OPTO implemented this way unlike other cities..

Accountability..

You're very very right about the people in this city. And why is accountability such an issue? This city has no law & order. Nobody is held accountable for their actions...instead these politicians and state run agencies choose to implement stupid laws and operations that end up stagnating the city backwards instead of forward. Now they wanna defund the police...which just decreases the level of individual accountability. These organizations and agencies just suck up the nonsense and continue to flow in the dirty sewer water. 

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, XcelsiorBoii4888 said:

You're very very right about the people in this city. And why is accountability such an issue? This city has no law & order. Nobody is held accountable for their actions...instead these politicians and state run agencies choose to implement stupid laws and operations that end up stagnating the city backwards instead of forward. Now they wanna defund the police...which just decreases the level of individual accountability. These organizations and agencies just suck up the nonsense and continue to flow in the dirty sewer water. 

I wasn't talking about the people who use the trains...

Not talking about the politicians..

I'm talking about the ones who operate them...

There's always got to be a fall person its the order of things...

Edited by RTOMan
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, jammerbot said:

Why is OPTO even seen as desirable? This whole thread seems to take that assumption as truth.

It allows the amount of crew required to run the (L) (and any other lines considered for OPTO) to be reduced.

Whether this would actually make an impact is up for debate, but in our universe where nearly every service improvement the MTA implements is cost-neutral, less crew on the (L) could potentially allow for service increases on other lines without increasing costs, without impacting (L) frequencies. This could be offset by the additional costs involved with actually preparing the (L) crew for OPTO, but if it remains OPTO for a while, that's there the savings would accumulate.

Edited by P3F
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25 minutes ago, P3F said:

It allows the amount of crew required to run the (L) (and any other lines considered for OPTO) to be reduced.

Whether this would actually make an impact is up for debate, but in our universe where nearly every service improvement the MTA implements is cost-neutral, less crew on the (L) could potentially allow for service increases on other lines without increasing costs, without impacting (L) frequencies. This could be offset by the additional costs involved with actually preparing the (L) crew for OPTO, but if it remains OPTO for a while, that's there the savings would accumulate.

Until the sole crew member gets sick, is a crime victim, or a blackout occurs, and the (MTA) gets sued in a court of law. If the agency loses the suit all taxpayers end up paying. Just thought I'd bring that point out.  They used to have a class in RTO called Panic and Evacuation . Something to think about that's not so obvious. Carry on.

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

Until the sole crew member gets sick, is a crime victim, or a blackout occurs, and the (MTA) gets sued in a court of law. If the agency loses the suit all taxpayers end up paying. Just thought I'd bring that point out.  They used to have a class in RTO called Panic and Evacuation . Something to think about that's not so obvious. Carry on.

I’m surprised this is NOT obvious. We’re talking about why OPTO should be a thing as if a good amount of people on this forum aren’t operators themselves who could give a s**t less if the agency saves some money if it’s at the expense of their safety (I think the TOs are justified 100% here) and operational safety (I say operational safety because there’s no way one operator should have to handle an onboard emergency without a partner).

 

If we are really concerned about long term safety, how about we do something about the MTA’s exorbitant amount of debt? Modify the legislation to let the MTA default on any private loan that it has paid greater or equal interest as is the original principal. Create a public bank of NY that raises funds for public projects and offers interest free loans. Clean up the contracting process and create/expand an in house construction team to keep capital construction costs low. Out of all the many fat cats to squeeze for savings— why do we choose the TOs?

Edited by jammerbot
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Posted (edited)
On 7/30/2021 at 10:17 PM, Trainmaster5 said:

Until the sole crew member gets sick, is a crime victim, or a blackout occurs, and the (MTA) gets sued in a court of law. If the agency loses the suit all taxpayers end up paying. Just thought I'd bring that point out.  They used to have a class in RTO called Panic and Evacuation . Something to think about that's not so obvious. Carry on.

You people REALLY act like NYC is the only place with these issues. If other cities could solve it, so can we. This right here is why the MTA cannot reduce costs. Y'all find every excuse to cost them money.

....While at the same time expecting them to spend less. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Ever since at least 1966, the Union has been an impediment to proper improvements and a MASSIVE money sink. And after reading Last Subway, I am absolutely sure things need to change. It's way worse than people think. I say this because you gave a VERY Samuelson answer and I hate that guy.

And this is what I hate about NYC (and these forums tbh). People LOVE to say what we can't do but almost never propose a solution to the issue. It's just, "Oh, we can't do it for xyz reason and instead of solving it, we'll just leave it be." It's disgusting.

How about we actually post solutions for once?

How can we do it? What reworks need to happen? I feel like under Byford and Tomlin, we would have found a way. Those are the types of minds we need.

Edited by LTA1992
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Posted (edited)
49 minutes ago, LTA1992 said:

You people REALLY act like NYC is the only place with these issues. If other cities could solve it, so can we. This right here is why the MTA cannot reduce costs. Y'all find every excuse to cost them money.

....While at the same time expecting them to spend less. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Ever since at least 1966, the Union has been an impediment to proper improvements and a MASSIVE money sink. And after reading Last Subway, I am absolutely sure things need to change. It's way worse than people think. I say this because you gave a VERY Samuelson answer and I hate that guy.

And this is what I hate about NYC (and these forums tbh). People LOVE to say what we can't do but almost never propose a solution to the issue. It's just, "Oh, we can't do it for xyz reason and instead of solving it, we'll just leave it be." It's disgusting.

How about we actually post solutions for once?

How can we do it? What reworks need to happen? I feel like under Byford and Tomlin, we would have found a way. Those are the types of minds we need.

The minute the mindset changes  for the majority of the people who ride the system then the minute the system can evolve..

There's your solution..

They are getting things in place so lets see how it goes..

Me ill be retired in five years (god willing) so maybe ill see it maybe i wont..

Either way it will be interesting

Edited by RTOMan
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4 hours ago, RTOMan said:

The minute the mindset changes  for the majority of the people who ride the system then the minute the system can evolve..

There's your solution..

They are getting things in place so lets see how it goes..

Me ill be retired in five years (god willing) so maybe ill see it maybe i wont..

Either way it will be interesting

Funny you say that because I was ear hustling a conversation on the last R42 trip where there was a guy who worked in a department I can't remember. It was on the tech side, but he said that after Byford left it would take, at minimum, 3 months for things to start sliding back to normal. 

If Cipriano can continue the change, then yay. But I'll be honest, I'm not confident. In Cuomo or the next Mayor (two terrible options imo) to allow the necessary changes to happen.

I need to see a good sign within the next year or so for that to change. And Rider mindset won't change until the organizations mindset does and results are even more visible.

Honestly, they need to do like London and produce a series that shows people how the system works. And like London, produce a new one every few years.

Six 45-minute episodes every 5 years or so. Each episode focusing on a different aspect. Fares and enforcement, why delays happen, workers on their daily routines, response to emergency situations, and maintenance, and what developments are going on to improve. People are out here still thinking 2.75 is a high fare (until the learn what the true fare is once you remove subsidy).

Visual media like that and advertising things like high frequency services are a start.

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On 6/28/2021 at 2:15 PM, Lawrence St said:

But doesn't the weekend extension of the Rockaway Park Shuttle run OPTO?

Nope. It's the time of the year where C/Rs get the Rock Pk for both revenue and platform. 

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11 hours ago, LTA1992 said:

You people REALLY act like NYC is the only place with these issues. If other cities could solve it, so can we. This right here is why the MTA cannot reduce costs. Y'all find every excuse to cost them money.

....While at the same time expecting them to spend less. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Ever since at least 1966, the Union has been an impediment to proper improvements and a MASSIVE money sink. And after reading Last Subway, I am absolutely sure things need to change. It's way worse than people think. I say this because you gave a VERY Samuelson answer and I hate that guy.

And this is what I hate about NYC (and these forums tbh). People LOVE to say what we can't do but almost never propose a solution to the issue. It's just, "Oh, we can't do it for xyz reason and instead of solving it, we'll just leave it be." It's disgusting.

How about we actually post solutions for once?

How can we do it? What reworks need to happen? I feel like under Byford and Tomlin, we would have found a way. Those are the types of minds we need.

Glad someone said it.

I'm all for keeping jobs, but if they aren't being used to help the system, then why do we continue to get stuck in this cycle? The union dosent want anything to change and it impedes (MTA)s evolution into the future.

Like what is the point of station agents anymore? Most of them sit there on their phones doing nothing and get paid $30/hr. They should be Wayfinder agents, help people on the platforms, redirect people to shuttle buses, etc.

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Posted (edited)
On 8/5/2021 at 5:07 PM, BreeddekalbL said:

I'm surprised people are pushing for opto, the fire that killed the t/o would have been worse if there is opto

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_to_rescue https://gothamist.com/news/nyc-transit-sued-over-subway-platform-rape never forget transit workers are not law enforcement, paramedics, or any form "rescue" , they will run the other way if facing any sort of "risk" or OSHA violation. Having actual emergency exits on a subway car, like FRA vehicles will go much further than a second staff member. Help underground is always 20 minutes away at minimum. Even precinct cops can't respond to 911 calls on transit property. TD cops must drive dozens of minutes for any call for service.

Edited by bulk88
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10 hours ago, bulk88 said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_to_rescue https://gothamist.com/news/nyc-transit-sued-over-subway-platform-rape never forget transit workers are not law enforcement, paramedics, or any form "rescue" , they will run the other way if facing any sort of "risk" or OSHA violation. Having actual emergency exits on a subway car, like FRA vehicles will go much further than a second staff member. Help underground is always 20 minutes away at minimum. Even precinct cops can't respond to 911 calls on transit property. TD cops must drive dozens of minutes for any call for service.

Comments like this make me sick, the MTA sets a black-and-white policy to stay in the booth after decades of clerks leaving the booth being robbed, raped and hospitalized. When rhe MTA draws a line in the sand, you dont cross it. Thats not the workers decision, thats the consequence of public behavior.

 

....and its not like people dont risk it anyway, everyone has that big save they had during their career.

 

https://abc7ny.com/mta-hero-train-conductor-subway-of-the-week/10402822/

http://www.twulocal100.org/story/daily-news-lauds-transit-hero

 

 

But no....we debase ourselves with cherrypicking and ignorance of years of history that preceded what we have now. The fact of the matter is not everyone is a  kung-fu crime fighter and calling the police may be the best some people can do...and quiet as its kept having an MTA patch on your clothes may as well be a bullseye people are much more willing to do much more harm to you.

 

 

...anyway, some of the good things people do in the uniform cant be bragged about on the internet or the news never gets the story becauase it wasnt a dramatic spectacle. And if it goes bad expect everyone to offer to kick the chair out from under you while you hang. Just a thought, carry on.

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20 hours ago, Jsunflyguy said:

Comments like this make me sick, the MTA sets a black-and-white policy to stay in the booth after decades of clerks leaving the booth being robbed, raped and hospitalized. When rhe MTA draws a line in the sand, you dont cross it. Thats not the workers decision, thats the consequence of public behavior.

 

....and its not like people dont risk it anyway, everyone has that big save they had during their career.

 

https://abc7ny.com/mta-hero-train-conductor-subway-of-the-week/10402822/

http://www.twulocal100.org/story/daily-news-lauds-transit-hero

 

 

But no....we debase ourselves with cherrypicking and ignorance of years of history that preceded what we have now. The fact of the matter is not everyone is a  kung-fu crime fighter and calling the police may be the best some people can do...and quiet as its kept having an MTA patch on your clothes may as well be a bullseye people are much more willing to do much more harm to you.

 

 

...anyway, some of the good things people do in the uniform cant be bragged about on the internet or the news never gets the story becauase it wasnt a dramatic spectacle. And if it goes bad expect everyone to offer to kick the chair out from under you while you hang. Just a thought, carry on.

Those arguments are always from folks who never operated a day in this profession their lives.. 

Yet some of the points do make sense, yet in New York City Until there is a mass change of the mindset in the majority of the ones who ride these trains..

Nothings going to change.. So those folks can continue the same arguments..

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