Holland Tunnel Gridlock Cuts Short M21 bus 66% of Evening Rush Hours

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

https://www.amny.com/news/mta-bus-traffic-holland-tunnel-congestion/

Lower East Sider Nina Howes was unsurprised when her crosstown trip on the M21 bus to the Hudson River waterfront was cut short by gridlock traffic going into the Holland Tunnel during the evening rush hour on Monday, Sept. 27.

“It takes 10 years to get down to the river,” said Howes as the bus came to a crawl on W. Houston Street near Varick Street. “We’re not going to go the whole way because there’s too much traffic.”

The bus line has had to suspend service at its western end on almost two-thirds of all weekdays in the last six months, an amNewYork Metro analysis has found, as a seemingly-endless stream of traffic goes from Manhattan to New Jersey every evening rush hour.

When vehicles heading to the Garden State start to clog up the blocks near the downtown tunnel entrance, the Metropolitan Transportation Authority’s New York City Transit usually suspends service to four stops — two in each direction — on a loop around that area.

To the chagrin of riders and Twitter transit watchers, the agency like clockwork sends out notices of the reduced service on social media, showing a map of the cancelled stops and a message that is usually a variation of the same message: 

“M21 bus service is suspended west of Varick St because of heavy traffic entering the Holland Tunnel. Buses will end/begin at Sixth Ave/Spring St.”

 

An amNewYork Metro review of the agency’s Twitter posts showed that NYCT suspended service on that section due to tunnel-bound traffic a whopping 87 out of 132 weekdays since March 28, or 65.9% of the time.

It was worst in June when MTA called off the last stops on all but one weekday evening, or 21 times.

Public transportation boosters say the regular blockage shows why the state should move ahead with charging drivers to enter downtown Manhattan under the MTA’s proposed congestion pricing program, in order to encourage more people to switch to public transit and free up the roads.

“Few things are a better argument for congestion pricing,” said Danny Pearlstein of the advocacy group Riders Alliance.

MTA estimates the scheme will cut traffic by 15-20%, but doesn’t expect to implement it until 2023 after completing a 16-month environmental review required by the federal government. 

Transit officials are in the process of holding public hearings about congestion pricing until Oct. 13, seeking feedback from New Yorkers and commuters from across the tri-state area.

‘Always been a mess’

The streets around the Holland Tunnel entrance have long been a bottleneck, and recent counts by the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, which operates the Holland Tunnel, shows that traffic is has recovered to almost pre-pandemic levels, with 1,234,735 in July 2021, about 93% of the 1,330,571 vehicles crossing the tunnel in July of 2019.

Meanwhile, MTA’s buses have come back to about 61% daily ridership compared to 2019 and the subways reached more than 55%, according to the transportation authority’s most recent counts. 

Port Authority spokesperson Scott Ladd said congestion has gotten worse not only due to rebounding vehicle traffic, but also because of construction on nearby streets, such as Spring Street and Canal Street, that have cut the number of lanes for cars and buses. 

He referred further comment to MTA and the city, adding that the M21 bus route is not on or even that close to Port Authority property. 

An MTA spokesman said in a statement that the issue predates the COVID-19 pandemic and that the agency chooses to temporarily eliminate the four stops to prevent delays on the remaining route. 

“Due to traffic conditions at the Holland Tunnel, the M21 route was experiencing severe delays. As a result, beginning before the COVID pandemic, MTA NYC Transit elected during certain rush hour periods, when traffic backs up at the Holland Tunnel, to temporarily suspend two of the route’s 20 stops in each direction that are west of the tunnel, thereby alleviating the delays,” said Aaron Donovan. 

Lisa Daglian, executive director of the Permanent Citizens Advisory Committee to the MTA, the agency’s rider’s advocacy group, said MTA and the city’s Department of Transportation — which is responsible for the streets — should join forces and implement measures like giving buses signal priority on traffic lights and adding enforcement cameras. 

“That area has always been a mess for traffic,” she said. “What kind of solutions can be put into place so that buses can move.”

DOT did not respond to a request for comment.  

MTA officials noted the cut only removes about 10% of the bus’s 41 total stops between the Lower East Side and SoHo, but Daglian said that forcing straphangers to walk even a handful of extra blocks can be challenging — especially in an area where bumper-to-bumper traffic routinely blocks the crosswalks.

“Those last four stops can mean the difference between somebody with a disability being able to get home and not being able to get home,” she said. “Somebody who has to then fight their way through those cars and other vehicles to get where they need to go — transit is supposed to make your life easier and not get stuck in traffic.”

‘A very bad precedent’

Pearlstein lambasted government transit officials for giving in to congestion. 

“I don’t think that we should cede territory from bus riders to drivers. It sets a very bad precedent,” he said. 

On Monday evening, Howes’s M21 bus slowed down to a snail’s pace as it approached Varick Street and she got off after the bus driver informed her that the route would once again be cut short because of traffic.

Howes, who uses a cane, decided to walk the remaining four blocks to the waterfront.

“You have to get off at Sixth or Seventh Avenue and walk the rest of the way,” Howes said. “I’m glad I’m walking better, but if my feet were as bad as they were, I’d be mad.”

[trainfan22]

I seen this service disruption a couple days ago, I didn't know it was an common thing.

[paulrivera]

It happened today too, for those keeping score

It also happened yesterday, and Monday, and every weekday consecutively since 9/17.

Now that it's making the rounds in the press, they'll probably curb down the practice. You know how the  is...

[JAzumah]

5 minutes ago, paulrivera said:

It also happened yesterday, and Monday, and every weekday consecutively since 9/17.

This is a job for traffic agents. They can help the intersection not get blocked. They write enough tickets to pay for themselves.

[Bill from Maspeth]

Lisa Daglian said that the MTA and DOT should join forces and implement measures like giving buses signal priority on traffic lights and enforcement cameras.

How and why do we give the M21 signal priority at traffic lights when the bus is already stuck in tunnel traffic and it's on a 20 minute published headway in the PM rush?  Are we supposed to add an exclusive bus lane, making traffic much worse, for a bus route that runs that "often"?  

Add enforcement cameras?  Sure, for drivers blocking the box, I'm all for that.  But that helps cross traffic blend into existing traffic as they make a turn.  That still blocks thru traffic toward the tunnel from moving if enough cars make a turn.  That still won't help the M21.

 

[R10 2952]

13 hours ago, Bill from Maspeth said:

Lisa Daglian said that the MTA and DOT should join forces and implement measures like giving buses signal priority on traffic lights and enforcement cameras.

How and why do we give the M21 signal priority at traffic lights when the bus is already stuck in tunnel traffic and it's on a 20 minute published headway in the PM rush?  Are we supposed to add an exclusive bus lane, making traffic much worse, for a bus route that runs that "often"?  

Add enforcement cameras?  Sure, for drivers blocking the box, I'm all for that.  But that helps cross traffic blend into existing traffic as they make a turn.  That still blocks thru traffic toward the tunnel from moving if enough cars make a turn.  That still won't help the M21.

The politicians aren't looking for a genuine solution here, they're just using this as an opportunity to push their anti-car agenda.  Business as usual. 

[SoSpectacular]

14 hours ago, Bill from Maspeth said:

Lisa Daglian said that the MTA and DOT should join forces and implement measures like giving buses signal priority on traffic lights and enforcement cameras.

How and why do we give the M21 signal priority at traffic lights when the bus is already stuck in tunnel traffic and it's on a 20 minute published headway in the PM rush?  Are we supposed to add an exclusive bus lane, making traffic much worse, for a bus route that runs that "often"?  

Add enforcement cameras?  Sure, for drivers blocking the box, I'm all for that.  But that helps cross traffic blend into existing traffic as they make a turn.  That still blocks thru traffic toward the tunnel from moving if enough cars make a turn.  That still won't help the M21.

 

To add on to that, every traffic calming measure is just going to further slow down traffic. Bus lanes just shift everyone onto one lane and the line of traffic just gets longer. No one is just going to give up driving without some kind of incentive. Traffic has to keep moving and should not be hindered.

[B35 via Church]

Always baffled me as to why anyone would actually bother waiting for the SB M20 south of 14th during the PM rush hour... You aint goin nowhere.

(That backed up traffic is) One of a couple of reasons why I don't miss working in the West Village.... Lol at deciding to curtail M21's because of it...

Edited October 1, 2021 by B35 via Church

[Lawrence St]

6 hours ago, R10 2952 said:

The politicians aren't looking for a genuine solution here, they're just using this as an opportunity to push their anti-car agenda.  Business as usual. 

Don't get me started. The bikes are by far the worst, it's only a matter of time before drivers start suing the city for these ridiculous not needed bike + bus lanes.

[B35 via Church]

18 hours ago, R10 2952 said:

The politicians aren't looking for a genuine solution here, they're just using this as an opportunity to push their anti-car agenda.  Business as usual. 

A politician's prerequisites are (prepping for) pandering & posturing to the public... There's no solutions in that shit!

12 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

Don't get me started. The bikes are by far the worst, it's only a matter of time before drivers start suing the city for these ridiculous not needed bike + bus lanes.

That would be an exercise in futility.... If anything, the city would double-down on the number of bike lanes.

On 9/29/2021 at 7:49 PM, JAzumah said:

This is a job for traffic agents. They can help the intersection not get blocked. They write enough tickets to pay for themselves.

They can also induce road rage.

Edited October 1, 2021 by B35 via Church

[P3F]

Congestion pricing would do nothing here... The plan supposedly includes a discount for the Holland/Lincoln tunnels, which means that those who drive from NJ and back each day (who are already paying whatever the PA charges), wouldn't pay anything more. So the traffic into the Holland tunnel would be mostly unchanged, except for the drivers who are using it as a free way to get into NJ (and likely aren't doing so during rush hour).

I would normally fault the NYCDOT as they have made a mess of the entire city since deBlasio took office, but in this case I'm not sure they're actually at fault since the physical limit of the Holland tunnel being 2 lanes westbound is what causes the gridlock leading into it. Simply more demand than supply. The real solution would be to provide a third tube like on the Lincoln tunnel, but we are beyond the age of significant investment into road infrastructure in NYC so it will never happen.

Edited October 3, 2021 by P3F

[SoSpectacular]

4 hours ago, P3F said:

Congestion pricing would do nothing here... The plan supposedly includes a discount for the Holland/Lincoln tunnels, which means that those who drive from NJ and back each day (who are already paying whatever the PA charges), wouldn't pay anything more. So the traffic into the Holland tunnel would be mostly unchanged, except for the drivers who are using it as a free way to get into NJ (and likely aren't doing so during rush hour).

I would normally fault the NYCDOT as they have made a mess of the entire city since deBlasio took office, but in this case I'm not sure they're actually at fault since the physical limit of the Holland tunnel being 2 lanes westbound is what causes the gridlock leading into it. Simply more demand than supply. The real solution would be to provide a third tube like on the Lincoln tunnel, but we are beyond the age of significant investment into road infrastructure in NYC so it will never happen.

The city was ultimately designed around the use of the personal vehicle, just as how the rest of the country was built around it with the introduction of the interstate system. To suddenly uproot that is a massive undertaking and I do believe we are going about it the wrong way. Instead of trying to claw back all this space for pedestrians and cyclists like madmen we should have built up/restored what we have already for our existing public transport system FIRST and then focus on trying to get less people driving. But the way they're going about this now, there's no clear compromise for even leaving driving behind. People already complain about service as it is and's it even worse considering we are still climbing our way out of a particularly dark period of our history.

[GojiMet86]

 

Yeah, I'm gonna be the odd man out here in this discussion. People are very eager to rag on bike lanes and pedestrian plazas because they're very easy scapegoats, but at the end of the day...

 

More cars = More traffic. There's only so much traffic agents can do.

 

First, the Borough of Manhattan, established back in the 1600s, was NOT designed for personal vehicles, just like any other hundred year old city. The streets were designed first and foremost for pedestrians way back yonder. Then came the wagons, the horse carriages, the buses, the trolleys, and then the car. It's not a coincidence that as each mode of transportation was introduced, the streets became more and more crowded. Newer towns and cities in the US have been designed for personal vehicles. And these places are a PITA to live in.

 

It is much easier to lose people to cars than it is to convince people to switch to public transit in the first place, let alone with this dysfunctional MTA.

I spent some time this summer outside of the US in Guatemala City. The transit system is barebones, something to be ashamed about. There's supposed to be 3000 buses; only 500 actually run.

In the same household, the neighbor, his wife, the mistress, 2 sons, 5 daughters, 10 cousins, grandma, and that one blind uncle all got 2 cars. They all think they can drive into the city during the rush and be perfectly fine, and they blame all the other drivers for the horrendous traffic down there. And that is with much less public transit than what there ought to be. Over there, my street alone had some 40 cars on the sidewalk, because the streets weren't designed for such a shitload. Neighbors ask those with no cars for space. My grandma's little pavement space in front has been destroyed. The amount of cars parked on the sidewalk put police precincts here to shame.

Same here. Drivers love complaining about traffic, and how it's always that guy from New Jersey that screws everything over or the crazy cyclist, but at the end of the day, they got no one to blame but themselves.

But will people in these two situations give up driving into the city for work and take up transit?

I'll put it this way: Not in numbers that would be great for transit. The moving-drivers-into-transit argument is less realistic than what it is made out to be.

 

 

So what about bus lanes, bikes, plazas, etc?

If all these lanes and plazas were eliminated tomorrow, the first thing people will with more space on the road is......drive more. And we would end up with even more traffic, but now with no place for pedestrians to just walk and relax.

With the record number of new car registrations and rising car ownership, raising the speed limit back to 30 mph or even 35 is not going to convince drivers to switch over to buses.

There seems to be a sentiment here that this is the magic bullet that will make buses go more faster or make them more reliable.

But in fact, it'll just convince people that driving in the city will be even faster. And when many car drivers think the same thing, what will happen? They'll all just wind up driving more and add more traffic. With more traffic, there will be more delays. And more importantly, that Manhattan bus is going to become even less reliable than what it is. Opening up more space for cars just makes drivers want to drive more.

It's the law of induced demand.

[SoSpectacular]

17 hours ago, GojiMet86 said:

 

Yeah, I'm gonna be the odd man out here in this discussion. People are very eager to rag on bike lanes and pedestrian plazas because they're very easy scapegoats, but at the end of the day...

 

More cars = More traffic. There's only so much traffic agents can do.

 

First, the Borough of Manhattan, established back in the 1600s, was NOT designed for personal vehicles, just like any other hundred year old city. The streets were designed first and foremost for pedestrians way back yonder. Then came the wagons, the horse carriages, the buses, the trolleys, and then the car. It's not a coincidence that as each mode of transportation was introduced, the streets became more and more crowded. Newer towns and cities in the US have been designed for personal vehicles. And these places are a PITA to live in.

 

It is much easier to lose people to cars than it is to convince people to switch to public transit in the first place, let alone with this dysfunctional MTA.

I spent some time this summer outside of the US in Guatemala City. The transit system is barebones, something to be ashamed about. There's supposed to be 3000 buses; only 500 actually run.

In the same household, the neighbor, his wife, the mistress, 2 sons, 5 daughters, 10 cousins, grandma, and that one blind uncle all got 2 cars. They all think they can drive into the city during the rush and be perfectly fine, and they blame all the other drivers for the horrendous traffic down there. And that is with much less public transit than what there ought to be. Over there, my street alone had some 40 cars on the sidewalk, because the streets weren't designed for such a shitload. Neighbors ask those with no cars for space. My grandma's little pavement space in front has been destroyed. The amount of cars parked on the sidewalk put police precincts here to shame.

Same here. Drivers love complaining about traffic, and how it's always that guy from New Jersey that screws everything over or the crazy cyclist, but at the end of the day, they got no one to blame but themselves.

But will people in these two situations give up driving into the city for work and take up transit?

I'll put it this way: Not in numbers that would be great for transit. The moving-drivers-into-transit argument is less realistic than what it is made out to be.

 

 

So what about bus lanes, bikes, plazas, etc?

If all these lanes and plazas were eliminated tomorrow, the first thing people will with more space on the road is......drive more. And we would end up with even more traffic, but now with no place for pedestrians to just walk and relax.

With the record number of new car registrations and rising car ownership, raising the speed limit back to 30 mph or even 35 is not going to convince drivers to switch over to buses.

There seems to be a sentiment here that this is the magic bullet that will make buses go more faster or make them more reliable.

But in fact, it'll just convince people that driving in the city will be even faster. And when many car drivers think the same thing, what will happen? They'll all just wind up driving more and add more traffic. With more traffic, there will be more delays. And more importantly, that Manhattan bus is going to become even less reliable than what it is. Opening up more space for cars just makes drivers want to drive more.

It's the law of induced demand.

No one said anything about bringing the speed limit back up as you can still hit 30 casually even without knowing it based on how open the road is.

The bigger question is, why did everyone decide to up and buy cars last year? Registrations went way up! The exact opposite of what the mayor was trying to prevent. The subways and buses were perfectly fine to ride, but with the pandemic upon us, everyone was basically fear-mongered into staying away from public transit, not to mention the increased transparency on what's been happening on the subways making it into the news everyday like it never happens. 

We are never going to fix that issue.

[GojiMet86]

5 minutes ago, SoSpectacular said:

No one said anything about bringing the speed limit back up as you can still hit 30 casually even without knowing it based on how open the road is.

 

I'll put it like this.

In general when there's threads about increasing traffic, plazas, bike and bus lanes are always the first things blamed. It is instinct, a defensive reflex to dump on them, even when they're not remotely close to being the source of traffic.

In past threads, solutions are always about removing them, raising the speed limit, etc. So yeah, no one here said it, but it's been discussed before, and it's why I brought it up, because after a while you realize these discussions follow very similar beats and it's not hard to anticipate what the next beat will be.

My post written at 3 AM in the morning wasn't meant as a response to this specific gridlock but as a general rebutal to this weird flex that has popped up throughout the years. In all honesty, it gets a little annoying after a while.

 

I like that people have different options of moving around the city. I just don't want to concede more ground to cars. So many concessions have been for car drivers over the decades. But a little bit is given to bikes and they are treated as the source of all that is evil and unholy with this city. Are people really that aggrieved by them? It feels like Twitter after a while.

There are indeed a number of actual problems with these some of these lanes, but they are unique to each location. Each one requires a different solution. And not all give problems. 14th Street has been pretty successful. I love that I can go from Delancey to Union Square in like 10 minutes.

But the amount of exclusive bus and bike lanes is too small to account for the vast majority of traffic gridlock in the city. Many bus lanes are barely enforced anyway.

 

So I don't understand why people love bringing them up in situations like this tunnel where it is clear that they are not even remotely being considered as solutions. Blaming them makes for nice jokes and quippy phrases, but at the cost of nuance, detail, and seriousness.

It really feels stale after a while, like Wallyhorse reviving a brown R.

 

1 hour ago, SoSpectacular said:

The bigger question is, why did everyone decide to up and buy cars last year? Registrations went way up! The exact opposite of what the mayor was trying to prevent. The subways and buses were perfectly fine to ride, but with the pandemic upon us, everyone was basically fear-mongered into staying away from public transit, not to mention the increased transparency on what's been happening on the subways making it into the news everyday like it never happens. 

 

They did, but on the other hand, traffic was already on the rise pre-pandemic. DOT just installed a new traffic light near me. And I agree with that decision, because the amount of traffic has increased dramatically on that intersection over the last decade. Crossing the street was feeling very stressful. No bike lanes there to blame.

[TomaszSBklyn]

2 hours ago, GojiMet86 said:

DOT just installed a new traffic light near me. And I agree with that decision, because the amount of traffic has increased dramatically on that intersection over the last decade.

New traffic light might indeed help pedestrians cross the streets safer, but from the motorist's point of view they mostly slow down traffic. I have seen it right in my neighborhood. Most of the time one is forced to stop and wait for no reason other than not to run a red light.

[Lawrence St]

On 10/3/2021 at 3:12 AM, GojiMet86 said:

 

Yeah, I'm gonna be the odd man out here in this discussion. People are very eager to rag on bike lanes and pedestrian plazas because they're very easy scapegoats, but at the end of the day...

 

More cars = More traffic. There's only so much traffic agents can do.

 

First, the Borough of Manhattan, established back in the 1600s, was NOT designed for personal vehicles, just like any other hundred year old city. The streets were designed first and foremost for pedestrians way back yonder. Then came the wagons, the horse carriages, the buses, the trolleys, and then the car. It's not a coincidence that as each mode of transportation was introduced, the streets became more and more crowded. Newer towns and cities in the US have been designed for personal vehicles. And these places are a PITA to live in.

 

It is much easier to lose people to cars than it is to convince people to switch to public transit in the first place, let alone with this dysfunctional MTA.

I spent some time this summer outside of the US in Guatemala City. The transit system is barebones, something to be ashamed about. There's supposed to be 3000 buses; only 500 actually run.

In the same household, the neighbor, his wife, the mistress, 2 sons, 5 daughters, 10 cousins, grandma, and that one blind uncle all got 2 cars. They all think they can drive into the city during the rush and be perfectly fine, and they blame all the other drivers for the horrendous traffic down there. And that is with much less public transit than what there ought to be. Over there, my street alone had some 40 cars on the sidewalk, because the streets weren't designed for such a shitload. Neighbors ask those with no cars for space. My grandma's little pavement space in front has been destroyed. The amount of cars parked on the sidewalk put police precincts here to shame.

Same here. Drivers love complaining about traffic, and how it's always that guy from New Jersey that screws everything over or the crazy cyclist, but at the end of the day, they got no one to blame but themselves.

But will people in these two situations give up driving into the city for work and take up transit?

I'll put it this way: Not in numbers that would be great for transit. The moving-drivers-into-transit argument is less realistic than what it is made out to be.

 

 

So what about bus lanes, bikes, plazas, etc?

If all these lanes and plazas were eliminated tomorrow, the first thing people will with more space on the road is......drive more. And we would end up with even more traffic, but now with no place for pedestrians to just walk and relax.

With the record number of new car registrations and rising car ownership, raising the speed limit back to 30 mph or even 35 is not going to convince drivers to switch over to buses.

There seems to be a sentiment here that this is the magic bullet that will make buses go more faster or make them more reliable.

But in fact, it'll just convince people that driving in the city will be even faster. And when many car drivers think the same thing, what will happen? They'll all just wind up driving more and add more traffic. With more traffic, there will be more delays. And more importantly, that Manhattan bus is going to become even less reliable than what it is. Opening up more space for cars just makes drivers want to drive more.

It's the law of induced demand.

I have to disagree with you and agree more with Spectacular.

Trying to FORCE people to use public transit by taking away travel lanes to include bike lanes is not the way to go about it AT ALL. Not to mention some of these bike lane designs are incredibly stupid (i.e Broadway in the Bronx north of 242nd St). The amount of times I've seen an accident happen from drivers coming off the Henry Hudson Pkwy and onto Broadway northbound with bikes flying down the path is unfortunately to many, there's a massive blindspot. But NYCDOT won't care unless the bikes complain.

The simplest way to put it is bikes are at war with cars. And I side more with the cars, which is why I will never drive in Manhattan again. They are incredibly reckless and don't care about anyone other then themselves. There's this bike dude on TikTok who cuses out everyone along the bike lane in TSQ and it's annoying.

Back to the topic at hand, congestion pricing will do nothing to help with the Holland tunnel congestion. Perhaps if we stopped wasting money on bike infrastructure we could have built a 3rd tube, but what do I know?

[GojiMet86]

1 minute ago, Lawrence St said:

I have to disagree with you and agree more with Spectacular.

Trying to FORCE people to use public transit by taking away travel lanes to include bike lanes is not the way to go about it AT ALL. Not to mention some of these bike lane designs are incredibly stupid (i.e Broadway in the Bronx north of 242nd St). The amount of times I've seen an accident happen from drivers coming off the Henry Hudson Pkwy and onto Broadway northbound with bikes flying down the path is unfortunately to many, there's a massive blindspot. But NYCDOT won't care unless the bikes complain.

 

Traffic is going to rise regardless of whether bike lanes exist or not. Every time space is made for cars, that space is taken up by cars in no time, and we go back to square one with even more traffic. Over 70 years of street engineering has shown that.

The root cause of traffic congestion in the city is cars, not bikes. In my 28 years of living here, I have yet to see gridlock on 57th Street or on Canal Street caused by bikes.

 

18 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

The simplest way to put it is bikes are at war with cars. And I side more with the cars, which is why I will never drive in Manhattan again. They are incredibly reckless and don't care about anyone other then themselves. There's this bike dude on TikTok who cuses out everyone along the bike lane in TSQ and it's annoying.

 

...there are also many car drivers that drive reckless and curse. Road rage has been an integral part of New York City culture far longer than any TikToker or YouTuber cyclist.

Angry drivers and gridlock have been a staple of NYC for decades. How many movies from the 80s and the 90s, back when no bike lanes existed, have the furious cab driver yelling at the traffic caused by cars?

[Lawrence St]

58 minutes ago, GojiMet86 said:

 

Traffic is going to rise regardless of whether bike lanes exist or not. Every time space is made for cars, that space is taken up by cars in no time, and we go back to square one with even more traffic. Over 70 years of street engineering has shown that.

The root cause of traffic congestion in the city is cars, not bikes. In my 28 years of living here, I have yet to see gridlock on 57th Street or on Canal Street caused by bikes.

 

 

...there are also many car drivers that drive reckless and curse. Road rage has been an integral part of New York City culture far longer than any TikToker or YouTuber cyclist.

Angry drivers and gridlock have been a staple of NYC for decades. How many movies from the 80s and the 90s, back when no bike lanes existed, have the furious cab driver yelling at the traffic caused by cars?

In the 25 years I've been driving in this city, the amount of reckless delivery bikes + commuter bikes are way more then reckless drivers.

[GojiMet86]

5 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

In the 25 years I've been driving in this city, the amount of reckless delivery bikes + commuter bikes are way more then reckless drivers.

 

You're intentionally mixing these two things up:

Traffic and safety.

 

I wrote:

In my 28 years of living here, I have yet to see GRIDLOCK on 57th Street or on Canal Street caused by bikes.

 

You wrote:

In the 25 years I've been driving in this city, the amount of RECKLESS delivery bikes + commuter bikes are way more then reckless drivers.

 

 

Notice I talk about traffic, you talk about safety. Yet this thread is about traffic gridlock on the Holland Tunnel. You're dancing around the traffic issue to bring up a red herring.

[SoSpectacular]

56 minutes ago, GojiMet86 said:

Angry drivers and gridlock have been a staple of NYC for decades. How many movies from the 80s and the 90s, back when no bike lanes existed, have the furious cab driver yelling at the traffic caused by cars?

To be fair, most of that gridlock traffic was mainly limited to Manhattan, where the majority of the city's economical activity takes place. The outer boroughs, not as much, save for the commercial hubs like Downtown Brooklyn, Downtown Flushing (and Jamaica Ave), Fordham Road and the like where everyone's flocking to go shop in the area. Those areas definitely needed some intervention in terms of minimizing car traffic. 

Things like the Merrick Boulevard bus lane in Queens were poorly thought out as it is now near impossible to use the street going either direction as cars are now restricted to just one lane and it takes multiple light signals just to get past intersections due to how short some of the greens can be. I would have expected things to pan out like the Main Street bus lane which was pretty much done the same way but the demographics of each area is different so driving habits will differ. Personally I used Merrick in the past to avoid using streets like Linden with that nasty choke point under the elevated LIRR structure or the Belt Parkway/South Conduit which would be going out of my way, but there's also things like food places I once frequented in the past that are now hard to get to and let's face it, you aren't going to take the bus to go get food then have to wait for another just to get back because like the rest of the city who despise Transit for reasons, time is money.