MTA Takeover of SIM23 & SIM24

[Via Garibaldi 8]

It has just been announced that the  Board approved the  takeover the & lines. Service will start January 3, 2022. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

People have also been asking if the routes will change. No changes to the routes. The schedules may change though (become more frequent), given how anemic they were with Academy.  That's been a major complaint from riders and elected officials, who were concerned about the two routes survival, as people were avoiding the lines due to unreliable, infrequent service.

[JAzumah]

6 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

People have also been asking if the routes will change. No changes to the routes. The schedules may change though (become more frequent), given how anemic they were with Academy.  That's been a major complaint from riders and elected officials, who were concerned about the two routes survival, as people were avoiding the lines due to unreliable, infrequent service.

I expect service every 30 minutes. That should be sufficient to rebuild the base for now.

AM: 500, 530, 600, 630, 700, 730
PM: 315, 415, 445, 515, 545, 615

[Via Garibaldi 8]

So we have some modifications to what we were told... Assuming the reporting of Erik Bascome is correct, whom I've butted heads with in the past for poor reporting on express bus matters, now we're hearing that the routes will have slight modifications, but no change to the number of trips or frequency for now.

https://www.silive.com/news/2021/11/mta-to-take-over-sim23-sim24-express-bus-routes-from-academy-bus-in-january.html?fbclid=IwAR2oZYf6vY7pryxHc-gCTJ8TqCIGwLDEuwhq4nhUjp0nsjWaIqikEjCKyX0

[JAzumah]

1 hour ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

So we have some modifications to what we were told... Assuming the reporting of Erik Bascome is correct, whom I've butted heads with in the past for poor reporting on express bus matters, now we're hearing that the routes will have slight modifications, but no change to the number of trips or frequency for now.

https://www.silive.com/news/2021/11/mta-to-take-over-sim23-sim24-express-bus-routes-from-academy-bus-in-january.html?fbclid=IwAR2oZYf6vY7pryxHc-gCTJ8TqCIGwLDEuwhq4nhUjp0nsjWaIqikEjCKyX0

My guess is that they are discussing the following three elements:
1) Manhattan terminus and origin.
2) 42 Street versus 34 Street.
3) Is the Outerbridge Park & Ride useful to this route?

I expect 1 and 2 to change and 3 to be left alone for now.

[Future ENY OP]

6 minutes ago, JAzumah said:

My guess is that they are discussing the following three elements:
1) Manhattan terminus and origin.
2) 42 Street versus 34 Street.
3) Is the Outerbridge Park & Ride useful to this route?

I expect 1 and 2 to change and 3 to be left alone for now.

34th  provides access to the Lincoln Tunnel. Once the buses pick up on pax on 9th Avenue. It makes the right on Dyer Avenue to the tunnel.  Although, the 34th Street end can be a chokehold. I feel that those stops will move to 42nd street to join with the SIM22, SIM25, SIM26. 
 

As for Outbridge Crossing, this would be a good market for the SIM24 essentially making it super express potential. Right now, it’s only 6 stops before it heads to Jersey to the Lincoln Tunnel. I feel there will be additional stops added on here to make the route more attractive. Just don’t move the 23/24 to ETC. 

[Future ENY OP]

1 hour ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

So we have some modifications to what we were told... Assuming the reporting of Erik Bascome is correct, whom I've butted heads with in the past for poor reporting on express bus matters, now we're hearing that the routes will have slight modifications, but no change to the number of trips or frequency for now.

https://www.silive.com/news/2021/11/mta-to-take-over-sim23-sim24-express-bus-routes-from-academy-bus-in-january.html?fbclid=IwAR2oZYf6vY7pryxHc-gCTJ8TqCIGwLDEuwhq4nhUjp0nsjWaIqikEjCKyX0

Very good that the routes are receiving modifications. My guess is as the TA make the service more attractive than trips will increase. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

4 minutes ago, Future ENY OP said:

Very good that the routes are receiving modifications. My guess is as the TA make the service more attractive than trips will increase. 

Not really. SIM23 & SIM24 riders have been clear about the routes and keeping them as they are.

 

22 minutes ago, JAzumah said:

My guess is that they are discussing the following three elements:
1) Manhattan terminus and origin.
2) 42 Street versus 34 Street.
3) Is the Outerbridge Park & Ride useful to this route?

I expect 1 and 2 to change and 3 to be left alone for now.

The main reason that ridership dropped on these lines was not the routing. Academy simply has not provided reliable service. There were ongoing issues with buses not showing up, buses breaking down and leaving riders to fend for themselves and other nonsense. Hell just last week, some SIM23 & SIM24 riders were asking in my group about detour info and holiday schedules and it was like pulling teeth to get that info. Academy had no updates anywhere and provided no info, even when asked. I was finally able to get BP Oddo to get that info for me, as he has been great assisting with Staten Island issues for the express bus groups (mine and the other Staten Island ones).

[Via Garibaldi 8]

From what I have heard, the modifications may be stop related, despite what the article says. That would make sense because originally it was stated that the routes would not change, especially given how vocal riders were.

Edited November 18, 2021 by Via Garibaldi 8

[JAzumah]

1 hour ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

The main reason that ridership dropped on these lines was not the routing.

I am aware of the SIM23 and SIM24 general situation.

Part of operational reliability is being able to stage a bus without getting harassed at bus stops. The MTA might consider northern origin changes in order to be able to stage those buses in existing layover areas. In addition, moving the SIM23 and SIM24 to 42 Street allows them to go through an existing checkpoint in Manhattan. These are elements that would make the service easier to manage. However, I do think they should at least give 34 Street a chance for 6-12 months.

 

1 hour ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

From what I have heard, the modifications may be stop related, despite what the article says. That would make sense because originally it was stated that the routes would not change, especially given how vocal riders were.

That would make sense. The MTA likes their pickups a little more widely spaced. Then again, these stops don't have a lot of conflict on Fifth Avenue. Again, I would advise them to leave it alone in the beginning.

2 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

As for Outbridge Crossing, this would be a good market for the SIM24 essentially making it super express potential. Right now, it’s only 6 stops before it heads to Jersey to the Lincoln Tunnel. I feel there will be additional stops added on here to make the route more attractive. Just don’t move the 23/24 to ETC. 

I think a reversed routing using the Outerbridge Park & Ride as a checkpoint has potential. In the evening, it might be useful for the SIM23/24/25/26 to all operate via the Outerbridge Crossing (or have the option to do so) and go in the opposite direction of traffic.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

6 minutes ago, JAzumah said:

I am aware of the SIM23 and SIM24 general situation.

Part of operational reliability is being able to stage a bus without getting harassed at bus stops. The MTA might consider northern origin changes in order to be able to stage those buses in existing layover areas. In addition, moving the SIM23 and SIM24 to 42 Street allows them to go through an existing checkpoint in Manhattan. These are elements that would make the service easier to manage. However, I do think they should at least give 34 Street a chance for 6-12 months.

 

That would make sense. The MTA likes their pickups a little more widely spaced. Then again, these stops don't have a lot of conflict on Fifth Avenue. Again, I would advise them to leave it alone in the beginning.

I think a reversed routing using the Outerbridge Park & Ride as a checkpoint has potential. In the evening, it might be useful for the SIM23/24/25/26 to all operate via the Outerbridge Crossing (or have the option to do so) and go in the opposite direction of traffic.

Having the buses on 34th St was a big sticking point with riders. I don't think that will change either, nor should it, as it wasn't the reason for ridership decline. Lots of people work around 34th St and there is no Hudson Yards express bus service, so those are some reasons that riders wanted the lines kept on 34th. 42nd already has several SIM lines.

[Future ENY OP]

51 minutes ago, JAzumah said:

I am aware of the SIM23 and SIM24 general situation.

Part of operational reliability is being able to stage a bus without getting harassed at bus stops. The MTA might consider northern origin changes in order to be able to stage those buses in existing layover areas. In addition, moving the SIM23 and SIM24 to 42 Street allows them to go through an existing checkpoint in Manhattan. These are elements that would make the service easier to manage. However, I do think they should at least give 34 Street a chance for 6-12 months.

 

That would make sense. The MTA likes their pickups a little more widely spaced. Then again, these stops don't have a lot of conflict on Fifth Avenue. Again, I would advise them to leave it alone in the beginning.

I think a reversed routing using the Outerbridge Park & Ride as a checkpoint has potential. In the evening, it might be useful for the SIM23/24/25/26 to all operate via the Outerbridge Crossing (or have the option to do so) and go in the opposite direction of traffic.

What’s the current routing for the 22/25/26 from the Lincoln Tunnel.  Do they take the Goethals or Bayonne Bridge for Tottenville and other points for service? 

[JAzumah]

1 hour ago, Future ENY OP said:

Do they take the Goethals or Bayonne Bridge for Tottenville and other points for service? 

Goethals

[checkmatechamp13]

7 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Having the buses on 34th St was a big sticking point with riders. I don't think that will change either, nor should it, as it wasn't the reason for ridership decline. Lots of people work around 34th St and there is no Hudson Yards express bus service, so those are some reasons that riders wanted the lines kept on 34th. 42nd already has several SIM lines.

When they moved the routes to 34th there were plenty of riders who complained because they preferred 42nd. So to say that this is something "the riders" want is not accurate. (It was about 50/50...if anything maybe a bit in favor of 42nd Street)

6 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

What’s the current routing for the 22/25/26 from the Lincoln Tunnel.  Do they take the Goethals or Bayonne Bridge for Tottenville and other points for service? 

Lincoln -> 495 -> I-95 -> Goethals -> I-278 -> West Shore Expressway

[JAzumah]

7 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

When they moved the routes to 34th there were plenty of riders who complained because they preferred 42nd. So to say that this is something "the riders" want is not accurate. (It was about 50/50...if anything maybe a bit in favor of 42nd Street)

This has always been a 50/50 market between 34 and  42 Street. Atlantic Express actually considered a 42 Street AE7 in the past, but they did not go through with it.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

12 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

When they moved the routes to 34th there were plenty of riders who complained because they preferred 42nd. So to say that this is something "the riders" want is not accurate. (It was about 50/50...if anything maybe a bit in favor of 42nd Street)

Yeah well that's not the picture painted, and if so many of them wanted to keep 42nd, they would've kept it on 42nd. From what I recall, those who wanted 34th St spoke up. If it was about 50/50 as you claim, then apparently those in favor of 42nd St didn't speak up loud enough.

https://www.silive.com/news/2018/10/mta-express-bus-lines-sim23-sim24-returning-to-34th-street.html

[checkmatechamp13]

6 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Yeah well that's not the picture painted, and if so many of them wanted to keep 42nd, they would've kept it on 42nd. From what I recall, those who wanted 34th St spoke up. If it was about 50/50 as you claim, then apparently those in favor of 42nd St didn't speak up loud enough.

https://www.silive.com/news/2018/10/mta-express-bus-lines-sim23-sim24-returning-to-34th-street.html

Don't give me that nonsense. The 42nd Street riders didn't speak up until they heard the news the week before that their bus was being removed from 42nd Street, and by then it was too late. They had no reason to "speak up" because the bus was already where they wanted it. But for the few weeks around the time of the change, that was the major topic of discussion (the problem is, most of them probably just posted on the Facebook page rather than complaining directly to Academy, compared to the ridiculous March 2019 changes where they complained on both pages and got the changes repealed)

Ridership also decreased and service was slightly reduced when they moved them to 34th Street. If they were so confident that was what "the riders" wanted, they would've kept service levels the same or increased them.

Edited November 19, 2021 by checkmatechamp13

[Via Garibaldi 8]

On 11/19/2021 at 2:56 PM, checkmatechamp13 said:

Don't give me that nonsense. The 42nd Street riders didn't speak up until they heard the news the week before that their bus was being removed from 42nd Street, and by then it was too late. They had no reason to "speak up" because the bus was already where they wanted it. But for the few weeks around the time of the change, that was the major topic of discussion (the problem is, most of them probably just posted on the Facebook page rather than complaining directly to Academy, compared to the ridiculous March 2019 changes where they complained on both pages and got the changes repealed)

Ridership also decreased and service was slightly reduced when they moved them to 34th Street. If they were so confident that was what "the riders" wanted, they would've kept service levels the same or increased them.

So which is it? On the one hand you claim that they didn't speak up until it was too late, but then on the other hand, you claim most of them probably just posted on the Facebook page (there is actually more than just one). Goes back to what I said before... One group was louder than the other.

[checkmatechamp13]

On 11/27/2021 at 5:13 AM, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

So which is it? On the one hand you claim that they didn't speak up until it was too late, but then on the other hand, you claim most of them probably just posted on the Facebook page (there is actually more than just one). Goes back to what I said before... One group was louder than the other.

You act like those statements are contradictory. They aren't.

Between August 2018 and November 2018, the SIM23/24 ran along 42nd Street, so the people on 42nd Street were satisfied, and the people on 34th Street were upset. So they complained for about 3 months and got Academy to change the route, with about 1 week of notice. In the 1 week of notice, all the people who preferred the bus on 42nd Street complained on Filippa's page (and there were a lot of them...at least as many as the people who were complaining about the lack of service on 34th Street in the months leading up to that).

Now, how many of those people complained directly to Academy, I don't know, but my guess is not too many of them. From what I recall, Academy's contact information at the time was very obscure. I recall some people shared the contact information, but by the time it got to enough people, it was already a foregone conclusion. (I'll emphasize it...there's only so much you can do when you have a week's notice). 

The second time Academy proposed a major change in March 2019, the riders were already prepared. Being that the contact information was posted during the whole 34th vs. 42nd Street debate, the riders quickly bombarded Academy directly and got them to back off.

The third time Academy proposed a change (It was supposed to be implemented in September 2019 and postponed until January 2020 over contract negotiations, it was actually a universally positive change. Nothing for the riders to complain about, and the Outerbridge Park & Ride stop was restored. I saw an opportunity to get an extra stop in SE Annadale for a rider who had been asking for it since the beginning of the redesign, and so I got him involved directly, as well as Filippa and yourself, and we were able to get it for him. I believe I also had him call Academy directly and ask for it (so it was recorded on both the MTA end and Academy end). 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

My contact in Government Relations just called me about this...

UPDATE: RE: SIM23 & SIM24

EFFECTIVE 01.03.22, the SIM24 will NO longer serve the Outerbridge Park & Ride due to low ridership. That should be the ONLY modification to the line. The SIM23 will remain as is.

-SIM23 & SIM24 schedules will remain as is.

This change will be discussed at the Board Meeting on Monday and voted on.

 

Edited December 10, 2021 by Via Garibaldi 8

[JAzumah]

They HAVE to up the schedules to every 30 minutes. Otherwise, the same leakage problem is going to occur. The idea should be to naturally balance the ridership between routes. The number of trips do not have to change, but the schedule absolutely does. Obviously, I am a fan of the Outerbridge Park & Ride and maybe the next time I plan airport service from Staten Island, I might just use that facility. I get the ridership issue. However, I shouldn't have to shame anyone into running a properly timed schedule.

This should be the schedule come 1/3/2022 on both the SIM23 and SIM24:
AM: 5:00, (5:30), 6:00, 6:30, 7:00, (7:30), 8:00
PM: 3:00, (3:30), 4:00, 4:30, 5:00, 5:30, (6:00), 6:30

Find two buses for each route. Take them from the SIM4X first. Take them from the SIM8X second. Take them from the SIM2 third.

You will find that the losses for running the current EDC schedule (based on choking Academy out) and the schedule I just presented are EXACTLY the same despite running more buses. Schedules drive customer behavior.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

14 minutes ago, JAzumah said:

They HAVE to up the schedules to every 30 minutes. Otherwise, the same leakage problem is going to occur. The idea should be to naturally balance the ridership between routes. The number of trips do not have to change, but the schedule absolutely does. Obviously, I am a fan of the Outerbridge Park & Ride and maybe the next time I plan airport service from Staten Island, I might just use that facility. I get the ridership issue. However, I shouldn't have to shame anyone into running a properly timed schedule.

This should be the schedule come 1/3/2022 on both the SIM23 and SIM24:
AM: 5:00, (5:30), 6:00, 6:30, 7:00, (7:30), 8:00
PM: 3:00, (3:30), 4:00, 4:30, 5:00, 5:30, (6:00), 6:30

Find two buses for each route. Take them from the SIM4X first. Take them from the SIM8X second. Take them from the SIM2 third.

You will find that the losses for running the current EDC schedule (based on choking Academy out) and the schedule I just presented are EXACTLY the same despite running more buses. Schedules drive customer behavior.

It's not happening now. Myself and the other Staten Island advocate... We've promised to push for more service at the right time.  Keep in mind that there is still a serious driver shortage. Changing the frequencies to every 30 minutes sounds great, but when they can't make the trips, it'll be like Academy all over again.

[Future ENY OP]

2 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

My contact in Government Relations just called me about this...

UPDATE: RE: SIM23 & SIM24

EFFECTIVE 01.03.22, the SIM24 will NO longer serve the Outerbridge Park & Ride due to low ridership. That should be the ONLY modification to the line. The SIM23 will remain as is.

-SIM23 & SIM24 schedules will remain as is.

This change will be discussed at the Board Meeting on Monday and voted on.

 

What numbers the have to make this decision.. Is the park and ride the last stop of the SIM23/24 or is it a continuation of the route heading to its terminus?

[Future ENY OP]

1 hour ago, JAzumah said:

They HAVE to up the schedules to every 30 minutes. Otherwise, the same leakage problem is going to occur. The idea should be to naturally balance the ridership between routes. The number of trips do not have to change, but the schedule absolutely does. Obviously, I am a fan of the Outerbridge Park & Ride and maybe the next time I plan airport service from Staten Island, I might just use that facility. I get the ridership issue. However, I shouldn't have to shame anyone into running a properly timed schedule.

This should be the schedule come 1/3/2022 on both the SIM23 and SIM24:
AM: 5:00, (5:30), 6:00, 6:30, 7:00, (7:30), 8:00
PM: 3:00, (3:30), 4:00, 4:30, 5:00, 5:30, (6:00), 6:30

Find two buses for each route. Take them from the SIM4X first. Take them from the SIM8X second. Take them from the SIM2 third.

You will find that the losses for running the current EDC schedule (based on choking Academy out) and the schedule I just presented are EXACTLY the same despite running more buses. Schedules drive customer behavior.

I could see some pullback from the riders to having that Outerbridge Park and Ride stop reinstated. Most of the route should be left alone. I think I mentioned about this not too long ago to possibly have the buses take the outerbridge to service the park and ride 1st stop than head to their respective terminus. The Goethals and West Shore expwy from the SIE is a bit overkill for the 22/23/24/25/26 since most of these buses are going into Tottenville.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

10 minutes ago, Future ENY OP said:

What numbers the have to make this decision.. Is the park and ride the last stop of the SIM23/24 or is it a continuation of the route heading to its terminus?

My contact didn't say. The call was not planned, and I'm in my office working today so, I asked him to just give me the info, but I was told that it was due to low ridership. I didn't press him on it. They may delve further into this at Monday's Board Meeting since they have to vote on it. So far, no one in any of the Staten Island groups has expressed concern or anger about it since I posted this info. I got the impression that they were more concerned about the rest of the SIM24 route.

Right now, the person I work with on Staten Island is asking for feedback on both the SIM23 and SIM24 as to what would bring riders that have stopped using the lines back.  We can use this info to press for increased service and/or perhaps route modifications later on.

Edited December 10, 2021 by Via Garibaldi 8