MTA Takeover of SIM23 & SIM24

[JAzumah]

2 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Well I'm glad that you're going to have the ultimate decision on this (apparently you're in Planning Operations with the , which is essentially the way you're acting).

It's strange that you get offended, but the actual MTA planners themselves DON'T get offended. I hope I do have the ultimate decision on this, because the improvements that I am suggesting make 100% sense.
 

2 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

You don't know how many people we already have standing on some of these SIM express bus trips and you don't know how much the  would cut, which could create even more problems.

Tell us since you know. Express bus standees are mostly created by buses bunching, not by not enough buses. I spent all summer fighting my way into the Brooklyn-Battery Tunnel towards Manhattan with a bunch of express buses. It is a miracle that anything after 5pm runs on time.

With regards to how much the MTA would cut, I have a pretty solid idea. They got $14B to maintain schedules through 2024. At this point, they are only going to cut what they cannot run. The rest is going to be internal juggling. They don't want to pay drivers to sit around and they don't want to scale too far back to have to ramp up again.

It is SO ANNOYING to tell us what we don't know. Tell us what we need to know to further the conversation or bite your tongue. Some of your contacts at MTA probably read the boards and they are unlikely to appreciate you constantly telling people what they do not know with regards to MTA information. A lot of times, MTA personnel will tell you things so that you can understand the agency's climate and perspective and work within it. If you plan to keep advocating for customers (and it is a needed function), consider what I just wrote carefully.
 

 

2 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

If you were all for efficiency, you wouldn't just be focusing on the express bus system, as subway ridership is still down significantly, as are the railroads. I'm not sure what your agenda is, but go for it.

I've stated my agenda. I rode the first southbound X22 in August 2001 from Manhattan. I almost bid on the routes that become the X23 and X24 as an 18 year old. I was trying to recruit Bestway Coach Express to be a bidder. I actually care about how the transit system works. I know that sounds foreign to you, but that is what I do. I want the MTA to be successful. Replacing them is going to be a pain if we lose them.

Efficiency in rail is different than efficiency in the bus system. As a bus operator, my fixed costs are buses, bus garages, overhead staff, and to some extent, drivers and mechanics. I have much greater latitude for scaling bus operations up, down, and sideways. As a future rail operator, you've just added tracks and stations and whether you run trains or not, it is a MASSIVE cost to keep them in working order. In order to be viable, you have to run a LOT of subway and railroad service. The MTA's fully allocated bus operating cost is around $225/revenue vehicle hour, but their variable cost is around $180/hour. So, you save $180/hour by not running empty buses. A subway car (just ONE) cost around $340/hour to operate and not operating it might only save $100-200/hour.

Part of the 2020 freakout was when a board member did the math and recognized that ALL of the proposed service cuts only saved $2B. In other words, so much of what the agency does is rail and is a sunk cost that they could stop running and still be burning cash! Buses are not quite the same way and that is why they are so useful.

[JAzumah]

2 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

Is it even feasible to send the 33C (Off peak) to Amazon for express service into Manhattan. I'm quite sure the ridership could essentially jump since you may have workers who commute from Brooklyn/Lower Manhattan via ferry to the fulfillment center.

The only way it makes sense is one pickup, one dropoff. You can turn dead miles into live miles without screwing up the schedule too much. You may even be able to run the Amazon expresses at a lower price point than $6.75. These buses would take almost the same path as if they were deadheading. 

In theory, you could put a pickup point near the Port Authority Bus Terminal and another one at 36 Street & 4 Avenue in Brooklyn. The buses would lose too much time going to Barclays Center. An alternate location would be 86 Street and 4 Avenue in Brooklyn. It would save most workers 30-45 minutes easily with buses that already exist.

[Future ENY OP]

Just now, JAzumah said:

The only way it makes sense is one pickup, one dropoff. You can turn dead miles into live miles without screwing up the schedule too much. You may even be able to run the Amazon expresses at a lower price point than $6.75. These buses would take almost the same path as if they were deadheading. 

In theory, you could put a pickup point near the Port Authority Bus Terminal and another one at 36 Street & 4 Avenue in Brooklyn. The buses would lose too much time going to Barclays Center. An alternate location would be 86 Street and 4 Avenue in Brooklyn. It would save most workers 30-45 minutes easily with buses that already exist.

Here are my questions to this:

1) How far in Port Richmond does the S53 go or can any other Port Richmond bound bus receive an extension to Bay Ridge for service to and from Amazon?

2) With the existing express bus service currently to Port Richmond.. Does it warrant any extension to the service center.. How would a PABT stop and 86th + 4th would be beneficial to this?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

5 hours ago, JAzumah said:

It's strange that you get offended, but the actual MTA planners themselves DON'T get offended. I hope I do have the ultimate decision on this, because the improvements that I am suggesting make 100% sense.
 

Tell us since you know. Express bus standees are mostly created by buses bunching, not by not enough buses. I spent all summer fighting my way into the Brooklyn-Battery Tunnel towards Manhattan with a bunch of express buses. It is a miracle that anything after 5pm runs on time.

With regards to how much the MTA would cut, I have a pretty solid idea. They got $14B to maintain schedules through 2024. At this point, they are only going to cut what they cannot run. The rest is going to be internal juggling. They don't want to pay drivers to sit around and they don't want to scale too far back to have to ramp up again.

It is SO ANNOYING to tell us what we don't know. Tell us what we need to know to further the conversation or bite your tongue. Some of your contacts at MTA probably read the boards and they are unlikely to appreciate you constantly telling people what they do not know with regards to MTA information. A lot of times, MTA personnel will tell you things so that you can understand the agency's climate and perspective and work within it. If you plan to keep advocating for customers (and it is a needed function), consider what I just wrote carefully.
 

 

I've stated my agenda. I rode the first southbound X22 in August 2001 from Manhattan. I almost bid on the routes that become the X23 and X24 as an 18 year old. I was trying to recruit Bestway Coach Express to be a bidder. I actually care about how the transit system works. I know that sounds foreign to you, but that is what I do. I want the MTA to be successful. Replacing them is going to be a pain if we lose them.

Efficiency in rail is different than efficiency in the bus system. As a bus operator, my fixed costs are buses, bus garages, overhead staff, and to some extent, drivers and mechanics. I have much greater latitude for scaling bus operations up, down, and sideways. As a future rail operator, you've just added tracks and stations and whether you run trains or not, it is a MASSIVE cost to keep them in working order. In order to be viable, you have to run a LOT of subway and railroad service. The MTA's fully allocated bus operating cost is around $225/revenue vehicle hour, but their variable cost is around $180/hour. So, you save $180/hour by not running empty buses. A subway car (just ONE) cost around $340/hour to operate and not operating it might only save $100-200/hour.

Part of the 2020 freakout was when a board member did the math and recognized that ALL of the proposed service cuts only saved $2B. In other words, so much of what the agency does is rail and is a sunk cost that they could stop running and still be burning cash! Buses are not quite the same way and that is why they are so useful.

I'm not sharing anything else because none of it is appreciated anyway, so why bother? I only share when it's clear that info can be shared. Everything that I do post there are certain people that make a point of posting as if what I have stated isn't valid, so f*ck it. I got the message loud and clear. You can continue the conversation as you wish, but I'm not posting anymore on this or anything else.

My energies will be channeled on doing what I set out to do and not dealing with the drama in here. Whatever you find out, you'll be finding out from the media, etc.  

For the people that I'm cool with in here, they are free to DM me and if they can tag me, that means we're cool. The others, don't bother. We have nothing to discuss and don't reply to me either.

[NBTA]

1 hour ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I'm not sharing anything else because none of it is appreciated anyway, so why bother? I only share when it's clear that info can be shared. Everything that I do post there are certain people that make a point of posting as if what I have stated isn't valid, so f*ck it. I got the message loud and clear. You can continue the conversation as you wish, but I'm not posting anymore on this or anything else.

My energies will be channeled on doing what I set out to do and not dealing with the drama in here. Whatever you find out, you'll be finding out from the media, etc.  

For the people that I'm cool with in here, they are free to DM me and if they can tag me, that means we're cool. The others, don't bother. We have nothing to discuss and don't reply to me either.

Upsetting but, expected. 

 

6 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

Here are my questions to this:

1) How far in Port Richmond does the S53 go or can any other Port Richmond bound bus receive an extension to Bay Ridge for service to and from Amazon?

2) With the existing express bus service currently to Port Richmond.. Does it warrant any extension to the service center.. How would a PABT stop and 86th + 4th would be beneficial to this?

S53 goes to the Port Richmond bus terminal (before the bridge), and by doing this, you’d have to reroute the S53 from just terminating at Port Richmond, to follow the S40/90 to Amazon. 
 

Honestly, I’m not on the island or that specific express bus route enough to judge what services or extensions should be made. But I do know that the old 86th Street stop should be reinstated on the SIM-C lines.

[JAzumah]

8 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

1) How far in Port Richmond does the S53 go or can any other Port Richmond bound bus receive an extension to Bay Ridge for service to and from Amazon?

In theory, the MTA COULD create an S53 extension or derivative to go to Amazon. However, it would likely require adding more buses to the route than running a direct service.

 

9 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

2) With the existing express bus service currently to Port Richmond.. Does it warrant any extension to the service center.. How would a PABT stop and 86th + 4th would be beneficial to this?

The Amazon people are traveling in the opposite direction of peak direction express bus riders. Thus, extending existing routes would likely NOT make sense because it would increase the total number of buses needed by a significant amount. The idea is to take buses that are deadheading and put them into service without damaging their running times too much. If the deadhead takes one hour, it could add one pickup and one dropoff to be in service and cover that trip in one hour and ten minutes.

So, you have Bus 15xx that does an 5:00 AM SIM1 trip, deadheads back to SI, and operates an 8:30 AM SIM1C trip. Instead of the deadhead, you would have a live trip that picks up outside of the Port Authority Bus Terminal, runs nonstop to Amazon via New Jersey, and then continues to do that 8:30 AM SIM1C trip.

Bus 31xx would normally do a 5:30 AM SIM2 trip, deadhead back to SI, and operates an 8:30 AM SIM2 trip. Instead of the deadhead, you would have a live trip that picks up at 86 Street & 4 Avenue, operate nonstop to Amazon, then continues on to the 8:30 AM SIM2 trip.

[checkmatechamp13]

9 hours ago, JAzumah said:

The only way it makes sense is one pickup, one dropoff. You can turn dead miles into live miles without screwing up the schedule too much. You may even be able to run the Amazon expresses at a lower price point than $6.75. These buses would take almost the same path as if they were deadheading. 

In theory, you could put a pickup point near the Port Authority Bus Terminal and another one at 36 Street & 4 Avenue in Brooklyn. The buses would lose too much time going to Barclays Center. An alternate location would be 86 Street and 4 Avenue in Brooklyn. It would save most workers 30-45 minutes easily with buses that already exist.

What do you do for peak direction service?

9 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

1) How far in Port Richmond does the S53 go or can any other Port Richmond bound bus receive an extension to Bay Ridge for service to and from Amazon?

2) With the existing express bus service currently to Port Richmond.. Does it warrant any extension to the service center.. How would a PABT stop and 86th + 4th would be beneficial to this?

If Brooklyn-bound route is set up for an Amazon extension, it would be the S93 (just run down Victory Blvd to Travis Avenue to South Avenue to Edward Curry Avenue to Chelsea Road). The CSI trips would be short-turns.

But really, as part of the local redesign, they need to include many more routes to Brooklyn. A more long-term solution for a Brooklyn-bound route would be to have a route start at Amazon, run across Edward Curry Avenue to South Avenue to Forest Avenue (providing Mariners Harbor with a direct link to Brooklyn), then take Richmond Avenue to the Staten Island Expressway.

2 hours ago, NBTA said:

S53 goes to the Port Richmond bus terminal (before the bridge), and by doing this, you’d have to reroute the S53 from just terminating at Port Richmond, to follow the S40/90 to Amazon. 

That's a bit indirect to go up to Richmond Terrace and back down.

2 hours ago, NBTA said:

Honestly, I’m not on the island or that specific express bus route enough to judge what services or extensions should be made. But I do know that the old 86th Street stop should be reinstated on the SIM-C lines.

It was only the X17 that ever stopped at 86th Street (now the SIM4C). There should be a separate local route from that corridor, rather than diverting the express bus.

[Lawrence St]

Wow...why can't we have a normal civilized discussion without people feeling a certain type of way? 

[JAzumah]

5 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

What do you do for peak direction service?

Nothing. The Amazon traffic is counterflow to Manhattan bound commuters.

 

 

[JAzumah]

6 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

Wow...why can't we have a normal civilized discussion without people feeling a certain type of way? 

We all have a different perspective in life and sometimes, they clash. 

I have taken more Ls than anyone on this board in transportation. You learn a lot of things that are not in the "Transit Planning For Dummies" book from taking Ls. One of the things you learn is that a fresh pair of eyes looking at a service or transit system can do wonders. The "bus people" are not driving innovation in buses; the non-bus people are because they are thinking less "bus" and more "travel experience". That is why it is important to hear everyone out on their ideas. Fare capping (as an example) allows the MTA to provide savings to people who are financially strapped, but are loyal users of their system. It increases equity without kicking the MTA in the nuts. It is a true win-win for everyone.

When I was involved in the Pocono bus wars, my customers stressed the importance of having buses spaced no more than 30 minutes apart in the morning. They didn't want to be totally screwed if they missed a bus. It is a pain in the butt to wait up at 4am and then have one of your kids spill a bowl of cereal that you are giving them just before you head out the door. Naturally, you might have to clean that up and that might cause you to miss your 5:18 AM bus. If you have to wait until 6:18 AM for the next bus, you aren't riding my company any more. You'll take Martz and have the assurance of extra buses when you needed them.

Academy is a much more efficient company than mine, so they will write whatever schedule gets the job done. However, I hated that schedule from day 1 on the 23 & 24. Ugh. You have all the buses around it running every 10-15 minutes and the city doesn't want to cough up more money to run at least every 30 minutes? The NYCEDC could have gotten COVID relief funds to do it from the federal government. So yes, I want that schedule changed and I want it changed from day 1 based on my personal experience. Both of those routes will have double their current ridership by April with an improved schedule. I want to see that happen. That would make me happy.

[NBTA]

8 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

Wow...why can't we have a normal civilized discussion without people feeling a certain type of way? 

Ignorance is bliss sometimes, egos and pride get in the way as well. It’s one to admit that you’re wrong in a situation, it’s another to act like you’re never wrong in any discussion. That’s how I see it, but let’s go back on topic.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

4 hours ago, NBTA said:

Ignorance is bliss sometimes, egos and pride get in the way as well. It’s one to admit that you’re wrong in a situation, it’s another to act like you’re never wrong in any discussion. That’s how I see it, but let’s go back on topic.

This has nothing to do with egos or pride. I had stopped posting here a few months ago when there was nothing going on. What it comes down to is I am not a bus fan a rail fan or any of that. I am just a regular commuter and I always clashed from the moment I came in here because my viewpoint is just totally different all around and that's what it is. Just that simple, so me stepping away is not because of a disagreement on this topic, and I'm simply being realistic about that. 

I stopped commenting on the topic because it's pointless. We have very different viewpoints, and that's not going to change. Now I may comment here and there on something, but I don't plan on getting into these discussions anymore. Joel's viewpoints are not new on this topic and neither are mine, so we're not learning anything new here when it comes to these discussions. 

I also want to be clear in saying that the whole fiscal cliff that Joel is mentioning and how the  needs to cut, etc., I'm not ignorant about any of it and he is absolutely right on the operations side, but our viewpoints on the topic are like night and day, so having a discussion about it will not change anything, as he is looking at it from the operations side and I am looking at it from the customer side.

 

 

[checkmatechamp13]

Poillon Avenue is saved, but Outerbridge Park & Ride is still gone: https://new.mta.info/press-release/mta-take-over-operation-of-sim23-and-sim24-bus-routes-staten-island

[Gotham Bus Co.]

6 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

Poillon Avenue is saved, but Outerbridge Park & Ride is still gone: https://new.mta.info/press-release/mta-take-over-operation-of-sim23-and-sim24-bus-routes-staten-island

 

Isn't the P&R used mostly by NJ residents?

[JAzumah]

4 hours ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

Isn't the P&R used mostly by NJ residents?

I did not see any NJ plates the last time I was there and that was about 6 weeks ago.

[checkmatechamp13]

8 hours ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

Isn't the P&R used mostly by NJ residents?

No, why would they pay a toll to catch the SIM24 when they could catch the train or #116 directly in their area?

Now if there were a Downtown bus or a "via FDR" bus offered from the P&R, it would be a different story.

[JAzumah]

Academy Holiday Schedule for the SIM23 & SIM24 beginning next Thursday 12/23

BTW, Academy is doing this across their entire system. The last week of December is usually a very quiet week.

[Calvin]

If I may ask, was the whole SIM23/24 to MTA NYCT a way to have all the Staten Island Express routes in one agency? 

[Lex]

1 hour ago, Calvin said:

If I may ask, was the whole SIM23/24 to MTA NYCT a way to have all the Staten Island Express routes in one agency? 

I'm sure that was part of it, but you also have to remember what happened not too long ago with Academy's handling of its NJT contracts (using resources meant for public transportation for charter service and lying about it to NJT's face).

[JAzumah]

3 hours ago, Calvin said:

If I may ask, was the whole SIM23/24 to MTA NYCT a way to have all the Staten Island Express routes in one agency? 

The private carrier operation of these routes was always designed to be temporary.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

8 hours ago, Calvin said:

If I may ask, was the whole SIM23/24 to MTA NYCT a way to have all the Staten Island Express routes in one agency? 

I'll just speak on the reliability side since we have a number of SIM23 & SIM24 riders in the commuter groups. Academy was dumping riders at stops for  express buses to take them into Manhattan in some cases and there was no accountability for the service. Buses not making trips, no one to reach, etc. Even getting holiday information about service was next to impossible in some cases. In one instance, I had to reach out to a Staten Island elected official to get that info. 

With the  taking over these routes, everyone involved hopes that there will be better service for the commuters. The lines will be monitored and myself and the other leader of the Staten Island advocacy group will be advocating down the line for more service, etc., but at least now the riders can track their bus in real-time, pay using OMNY and have an idea of what their service will be during holidays, etc., which was almost always a mystery if Academy didn't release anything. It makes it easier for us because before we could only assist with some things on these lines. I got a stop cleaned up for an Academy rider in my group who had to wait in absolutely filthy conditions in the morning.

Ridership has been declining on both of these lines because of reliability issues, so the focus right now on the advocate side is having the schedule met that exists. I won't get into what the frequencies should be, etc. This is what the  can run and we'll see what can be later on.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

@Via Garibaldi 8 @checkmatechamp13 The SIM23 and SIM24 bus routes are now on bustime, but the it shows the SIM23 originating from Barclay Avenue (and you can't track the bus coming from Pollion Avenue until it at least reaches Barclay).

https://bustime.mta.info/index#SIM23

[Calvin]

The SIM23 and SIM24 are currently linked to the Academy website in schedule in PDF. However, it's present to the new MTA style by the MTA link 

https://new.mta.info/schedules/bus/si
 

https://bustime.mta.info/index#SIM24

Edited January 2, 2022 by Calvin

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 hour ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

@Via Garibaldi 8 @checkmatechamp13 The SIM23 and SIM24 bus routes are now on bustime, but the it shows the SIM23 originating from Barclay Avenue (and you can't track the bus coming from Pollion Avenue until it at least reaches Barclay).

https://bustime.mta.info/index#SIM23

Thanks for posting this. I will work with my other SI advocate to try to get this fixed ASAP, though it will take some time. I suspect this is the result of the earlier decision to eliminate this stop before myself and others advocated for the stop to be retained.

Edited January 2, 2022 by Via Garibaldi 8

[Via Garibaldi 8]

There's also an error with the SIM24 on BusTime. Just sent everything over for it to be fixed.