B15, Q3, Q10 Bus Route Changes in JFK Effective March 27, 2022

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

https://new.mta.info/document/72576 (Pages 221-229)

This will be a long-term, semi-permanent change, until at least 2026. Here's a condensed version of the route changes:

B15 & Q10 

• Buses operate between Bed-Stuy/Kew Gardens and Lefferts Boulevard AirTrain
• Service between Lefferts Boulevard AirTrain & Terminal 5 is discontinued (see Q3)
• Buses will layover south of the train station

Q3 

• Buses will be extended to Lefferts Boulevard AirTrain
• Buses will now stop at Terminal 8 instead of Terminal 5
• Buses will make all stops on the Van Wyck Expressway Service Road that B15 & Q10 buses 

 

-----------------------------------------------------------

Something I found interesting in the alternatives section (Page 225) was alternative 4 and its response:

4. Route the B15, Q3 and Q10 to serve Terminal 8 and not layover in the airport but add layover time at their opposite terminals instead. There are currently space challenges at their opposite terminals – the B15 in Bedford-Stuyvesant, the Q3 in Jamaica, and the Q10 in Kew Gardens. These routes are also long in length and require layovers at both ends of their routes to maintain service reliability.

The reason being, that last sentence sticking out, as the same thing could be said about the M60. It has no layover at LGA, and buses on the Manhattan end find whatever place possible to layover. 

Edited January 22, 2022 by BM5 via Woodhaven

[MysteriousBtrain]

This is a nice way to slide in the redesign Lefferts Blvd terminal and eventually make it "permanent" because the ridership doesn't exist for the CTA anymore.

[Q43LTD]

Didn't they serve all terminals in JFK before the AirTrain existed? We know how that turned out. Another alternative was have them all terminate at Federal Circle, but that was out due to lack of space. I find that funny because Federal Circle was supposed to be a temporary terminal for the B15, Q3 and 10 (in addition to an extended Q6) in the redesign. Would be interesting to see what their signs would say to reflect this. I think addition to the M60, the Q48 doesn't have layover time at LaGuardia either after serving all of it. 

[paulrivera]

They're saving $1 million a year with this change. As long as the Port Authority or New York State don't object, the  is going to make this change permanent. I really do wish these buses went to Federal Circle though because there's more frequent Airtrain service over there... But then again I haven't had a need to use the Q10 in years, and even before COVID not a lot of people used the buses to go in/out of the airport terminals...

Besides, they wanted to do this for the Queens redesign anyway.

[4 via Mosholu]

1 hour ago, Q43LTD said:

Didn't they serve all terminals in JFK before the AirTrain existed?

I feel that they likely did prior to the AirTrain coming out.

[B35 via Church]

Saw this coming a mile away for the B15 & the Q10 & it's a very good chance they're going to be more than temporary changes... The Q3 ending there is the only thing that's goin be temporary... The play is going to be to get SE Queens patrons to xfer to AIRTrain (good luck with that) or that QT20....

TBH, I have less of a problem of having B15's end at Lefferts AIRTrain by itself & more of a problem to the eventual residual effects of it.... Just like Federal Circle serves as a poor full time terminal for multiple bus routes, so does Lefferts AIRTrain.... It's going to ultimately result in more of those Spring Creek short turns - which are going to have the Lefferts AIRTrain buses crushloaded....

The end goal here will be to not have any routes directly serve any of the terminals...

[TrainFanInfinity]

I agree that Federal Circle would been a more ideal spot, with both of the Airtrain branches and the airport shuttles stopping there. That way the Q3 wouldn't have to circle all the way around the terminal area and people wouldn't have to use another transfer or take Airtrain one stop to get to the Service Road area. Perhaps if they invested into making more space for buses around there; I could see buses potentially drop off at the north side, layover on the Cargo Service Rd and pick up or just loop at the south side (though this spot might be too tight). That'd require one of the lanes to be converted, but I don't recall there being too much traffic on that road. They are making a new layover space at Lefferts, so that could have also been an option.

13 hours ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

The reason being, that last sentence sticking out, as the same thing could be said about the M60. It has no layover at LGA, and buses on the Manhattan end find whatever place possible to layover. 

Isn't the M60 a little different though, since it has to serve all of the terminals? A layover at LGA would have pax. on the bus also having to wait, or them getting off to take another one. It does tend to become pretty unreliable at some points too; wouldn't want the JFK routes replicating that, especially so with the B15.

[GojiMet86]

I usually take the Q10 on the way in, usually when I have to pick up someone (and then catch a taxi/Uber home) or go catch a flight myself; I can tolerate carrying my bagback and a carry-on heading to and arriving. But now this just complicates things.

[Cait Sith]

31 minutes ago, TrainFanInfinity said:

I agree that Federal Circle would been a more ideal spot, with both of the Airtrain branches and the airport shuttles stopping there. That way the Q3 wouldn't have to circle all the way around the terminal area and people wouldn't have to use another transfer or take Airtrain one stop to get to the Service Road area. Perhaps if they invested into making more space for buses around there; I could see buses potentially drop off at the north side, layover on the Cargo Service Rd and pick up or just loop at the south side (though this spot might be too tight). That'd require one of the lanes to be converted, but I don't recall there being too much traffic on that road. They are making a new layover space at Lefferts, so that could have also b

The Q3 would have to circle around the terminal area anyway to get to Federal Circle, considering that it'll be the one route to serve the North & South Service Road passengers.

I was never a fan of how Federal Circle is currently laid out, considering that it's design was never intended for heavier transit usage. The PA barely made room for their own buses, and it just gets worse once all of the hotel and rental shuttles congregate there, and even more worse when they run airtrain shuttles. The way it's currently laid out would create complications for layovers.

3 hours ago, paulrivera said:

They're saving $1 million a year with this change. As long as the Port Authority or New York State don't object, the  is going to make this change permanent. I really do wish these buses went to Federal Circle though because there's more frequent Airtrain service over there... But then again I haven't had a need to use the Q10 in years, and even before COVID not a lot of people used the buses to go in/out of the airport terminals...

Besides, they wanted to do this for the Queens redesign anyway.

That's how long this has been in the works. They've been in talks with the TA about the change for a few years now. Cuomo accelerated it with his vision of what the airport should be.

3 hours ago, Q43LTD said:

Didn't they serve all terminals in JFK before the AirTrain existed? We know how that turned out. Another alternative was have them all terminate at Federal Circle, but that was out due to lack of space. I find that funny because Federal Circle was supposed to be a temporary terminal for the B15, Q3 and 10 (in addition to an extended Q6) in the redesign. Would be interesting to see what their signs would say to reflect this. I think addition to the M60, the Q48 doesn't have layover time at LaGuardia either after serving all of it. 

Federal Circle was only intended for that Q3 variant that's going to Jamaica Hospital(I still don't know why that route is a thing) IIRC. The QT20 would have terminated at the Lefferts Airtrain Station.

[MTA Bus]

This is supposed to be a temporary change because when the construction is complete at JFK, they’re going to have them go back to the airport at a new permanent bus stop area. They haven’t figured out where yet tho

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

4 hours ago, TrainFanInfinity said:

Isn't the M60 a little different though, since it has to serve all of the terminals? A layover at LGA would have pax. on the bus also having to wait, or them getting off to take another one. It does tend to become pretty unreliable at some points too; wouldn't want the JFK routes replicating that, especially so with the B15.

I don't have a problem with the B15 and Q10 having a layover near the AirTrain station, I'm just pointing out that their rationale could be used against them when it comes to the M60. Yes the M60 serves all the terminals, but fundamentally it isn't much different than how they describe the B15 (and is longer than both the Q3 and Q10).

If they really believed in what they're stating, they would have already made it so that the M60 has a layover on the Queens end, without subjecting riders to wait on the bus. However that would be more expensive for them in terms of operating cost, which is the real driver here (no pun intended). 

Edited January 22, 2022 by BM5 via Woodhaven

[Lawrence St]

Why do some of you think this is a good thing if it’s permanent? Unless TA & PA come together on a reduced transfer cost for the AirTrain, no one in their right mind is gonna want to use it.

[GojiMet86]

2 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

Why do some of you think this is a good thing if it’s permanent? Unless TA & PA come together on a reduced transfer cost for the AirTrain, no one in their right mind is gonna want to use it.

Well, no one here is saying it is a good idea for long-term permanence.

[B35 via Church]

1 hour ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

I don't have a problem with the B15 and Q10 having a layover near the AirTrain station, I'm just pointing out that their rationale could be used against them when it comes to the M60. Yes the M60 serves all the terminals, but fundamentally it isn't much different than how they describe the B15 (and is longer than both the Q3 and Q10). 

I never cared for when they pose disingenuous alternatives to routing changes... They do that to as a means of highlighting how much better they deem the initial option/main routing change to be.... In other words, the initial option is the only serious option on the table..... It's like having a beauty contest & having __________ (*some model you deem to be physically beautiful*) go up against Sasquatch, King Kong, and some 40 year old retarded virgin neckbeard that does the short bus clap every time he hears his name... Like, you know who's goin win that god damn contest.... Who are we trying to fool here.....

The alternative I like the most (sardonically speaking) is when they list "Do nothing" as an alternative.... Sometimes they'll even follow this up with verbiage that would have readers believe that the initial/main suggestion presented HAS to be implemented.... But yeah, more often than not, I say to myself, yeah - I'd rather you do nothing..... But as for this one in particular, if you realize that there are these space challenges at their individual/respective opposite end termini & that the 3 routes in question require layovers on each end to maintain reliability (you could argue even with their individual end termini, reliability on either of those 3 routes are down the drain, but that's neither here nor there), why even pose it as an option/alternative in the first place.... B15's & Q10's bunch like wildfire during the weekday; if you have buses preceding them taking longer layovers in Bed Stuy/Kew Gardens (respectively), where are you putting these buses? Or are dispatchers going to force b/o's to depart early, basically spoofing them into thinking they're going to reach that terminal having a longer layover....

Edited January 23, 2022 by B35 via Church

[bobtehpanda]

14 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

Why do some of you think this is a good thing if it’s permanent? Unless TA & PA come together on a reduced transfer cost for the AirTrain, no one in their right mind is gonna want to use it.

You don't pay fares unless you start/end at Howard Beach or Jamaica, so at least at Lefferts Blvd that isn't a major issue.

[checkmatechamp13]

8 hours ago, Q43LTD said:

Didn't they serve all terminals in JFK before the AirTrain existed? We know how that turned out. Another alternative was have them all terminate at Federal Circle, but that was out due to lack of space. I find that funny because Federal Circle was supposed to be a temporary terminal for the B15, Q3 and 10 (in addition to an extended Q6) in the redesign. Would be interesting to see what their signs would say to reflect this. I think addition to the M60, the Q48 doesn't have layover time at LaGuardia either after serving all of it. 

Only the QT68 was proposed to terminate at Federal Circle. The QT10 and QT20 would end at Lefferts Blvd AirTrain, and the B15 is still up in the air (the say the QT5 supposedly replaces part of the B15, so likely the Brooklyn-JFK portion would be addressed in the Brooklyn redesign).

5 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Saw this coming a mile away for the B15 & the Q10 & it's a very good chance they're going to be more than temporary changes... The Q3 ending there is the only thing that's goin be temporary... The play is going to be to get SE Queens patrons to xfer to AIRTrain (good luck with that) or that QT20....

TBH, I have less of a problem of having B15's end at Lefferts AIRTrain by itself & more of a problem to the eventual residual effects of it.... Just like Federal Circle serves as a poor full time terminal for multiple bus routes, so does Lefferts AIRTrain.... It's going to ultimately result in more of those Spring Creek short turns - which are going to have the Lefferts AIRTrain buses crushloaded....

The end goal here will be to not have any routes directly serve any of the terminals...

Do you mean poor in terms of physical space, or poor in terms of ridership potential? For physical space, they say PANYNJ will build a layover area further down Lefferts Blvd.

When I saw this quote:

Quote

The increase in operating cost of NYC Transit’s B15 and Q3 of approximately $58,000 annually resulting from these changes is offset by a decrease in operating cost of MTA Bus’s Q10 of approximately $1 million annually.

I assumed that they were planning to extend the B15 short-turns to Lefferts Blvd (you save about 10 minutes by not going to Terminal 5, and Drew Street is about 10 minutes from Lefferts Blvd AirTrain station). But then I saw the Q3 plan and figured that's where the extra cost is coming from (Unless they're doing both the Q3 extension and B15 short-turn extension).

19 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

Why do some of you think this is a good thing if it’s permanent? Unless TA & PA come together on a reduced transfer cost for the AirTrain, no one in their right mind is gonna want to use it.

The AirTrain only requires a fare at Jamaica & Howard Beach.

[XcelsiorBoii4888]

I don't see this being permanent, because the PA wants the MTA buses to come into the airport, since it saves costs on them running their buses to outer locations. They PA wants their buses to serve all areas of the airport, and the Airtrain to serve the main terminals and Jamaica/Howard Beach. and want the MTA to bring the revenue and the airport workers via their buses. The MTA would try to get away with making it permanent, but the outcry will force them to bring the buses back, especially since PA is building a brand new bus terminal (most likely big enough for both PA and MTA buses). The MTA and PA probably had an agreement for how much bus space to create within the Central Terminal Area, and once that's done, MTA cannot object.

 

 

Question @BM5 via Woodhaven, where did you find this document? I didn't know they had monthly committee meetings.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

18 minutes ago, XcelsiorBoii4888 said:

I don't see this being permanent, because the PA wants the MTA buses to come into the airport, since it saves costs on them running their buses to outer locations. They PA wants their buses to serve all areas of the airport, and the Airtrain to serve the main terminals and Jamaica/Howard Beach. and want the MTA to bring the revenue and the airport workers via their buses. The MTA would try to get away with making it permanent, but the outcry will force them to bring the buses back, especially since PA is building a brand new bus terminal (most likely big enough for both PA and MTA buses). The MTA and PA probably had an agreement for how much bus space to create within the Central Terminal Area, and once that's done, MTA cannot object.

 

 

Question @BM5 via Woodhaven, where did you find this document? I didn't know they had monthly committee meetings.

On the new MTA website, if you go to the menu and select "Transparency", and then "Board & Committee Meetings", you should get the list of meetings and their respective pages.  Those pages have all the various documents for the different agencies.

Edited January 23, 2022 by BM5 via Woodhaven

[B35 via Church]

4 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

Do you mean poor in terms of physical space, or poor in terms of ridership potential? For physical space, they say PANYNJ will build a layover area further down Lefferts Blvd.

When I saw this quote:

Quote

The increase in operating cost of NYC Transit’s B15 and Q3 of approximately $58,000 annually resulting from these changes is offset by a decrease in operating cost of MTA Bus’s Q10 of approximately $1 million annually.

I assumed that they were planning to extend the B15 short-turns to Lefferts Blvd (you save about 10 minutes by not going to Terminal 5, and Drew Street is about 10 minutes from Lefferts Blvd AirTrain station). But then I saw the Q3 plan and figured that's where the extra cost is coming from (Unless they're doing both the Q3 extension and B15 short-turn extension).

To refresh your memory, I've suggested having B20's (to assist B15's) & Q9's run out to Lefferts AIRTrain.... A decade or so later, I still hold the same sentiment & still strongly support running Q9's there.... I also don't have a problem with the current (rare) B15's that short turn there either..... So definitely not lack of ridership potential.... I was referring to physical space... I'd like to see where exactly this penalty box layover area will be carved out from/situated...

[Cait Sith]

1 hour ago, Lawrence St said:

Why do some of you think this is a good thing if it’s permanent? Unless TA & PA come together on a reduced transfer cost for the AirTrain, no one in their right mind is gonna want to use it.

Point out where folks are saying that, because literally no one is lol....

There wouldn't be a transfer cost because the AirTrain is free within the airport(including Lefferts Blvd). It's only at Howard Beach or Jamaica where payment is necessary, which also wouldn't make a difference in the current day scenario.

The document itself even states its temporary. I'm not sure where the assumption of it being permanent is coming from to begin with....

Edited January 23, 2022 by Cait Sith

[NBTA]

This is gonna be hell for riders who work in JFK Airport. Those early morning 15s and 10s be packed beyond belief, and now having to rely on the 3 to get within the airport is gonna ruin things. They have to add some sort of 3 legged transfer.

[XcelsiorBoii4888]

54 minutes ago, NBTA said:

This is gonna be hell for riders who work in JFK Airport. Those early morning 15s and 10s be packed beyond belief, and now having to rely on the 3 to get within the airport is gonna ruin things. They have to add some sort of 3 legged transfer.

YESS!! The B15 and Q10 should be the middle transfer bus. If you transfer onto the B15 or Q10, you should get a second transfer to the Q3.

Edited January 23, 2022 by XcelsiorBoii4888

[Q43LTD]

5 hours ago, Cait Sith said:

Federal Circle was only intended for that Q3 variant that's going to Jamaica Hospital (I still don't know why that route is a thing) IIRC. The QT20 would have terminated at the Lefferts Airtrain Station.

I don't know why either. I don't see any logical turnaround space at Jamaica Hospital

1 hour ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

Only the QT68 was proposed to terminate at Federal Circle. The QT10 and QT20 would end at Lefferts Blvd AirTrain, and the B15 is still up in the air (the say the QT5 supposedly replaces part of the B15, so likely the Brooklyn-JFK portion would be addressed in the Brooklyn redesign).

Now I see it guys, thanks. I would say when this redevelopment ends, my money is on Terminal 4 will be the CTA

[R10 2952]

6 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

I never cared for when they pose disingenuous alternatives to routing changes... They do that to as a means of highlighting how much better they deem the initial option/main routing change to be.... In other words, the initial option is the only serious option on the table..... It's like having a beauty contest & having __________ (*some model you deem to be physically beautiful*) go up against Sasquatch, King Kong, and some 40 year old retarded virgin neckbeard that does the short bus clap every time he hears his name... Like, you know who's goin win that god damn contest.... Who are we trying to fool here.....

 

 

 

Edited January 23, 2022 by R10 2952

[paulrivera]

5 hours ago, Cait Sith said:

I'm not sure where the assumption of it being permanent is coming from to begin with....

It's low hanging fruit (a million dollars in cost savings, and airport workers may not be the most vocal group to protest a service cut), and with the purportedly limited amount of funding they have, they probably would love to take those million dollars and use it for something else if they can get away with it.

The trick would be trying to get this past the Port Authority. That probably won't happen, because then they'll need to spend money on more Airtrains and rerouted employee shuttle buses. But then again, the  tried to sneak in a cut to the bus Wifi service once (even though it was an Albany pet project,) so who really knows...