Through Train Service

[Jamall Hayden]

There has been a lot of talk recently about through service in the NY region some designers suggest that the new Penn station should be designed with this service pattern in mind. 1 major obstacle people are pointing out is that all 3 transit agencies (Lirr, Metro North, Nj transit) all use different power systems Lirr (over running 3rd rail) Metro North (under running 3rd rail) Nj transit (overhead catenary). Metro North’s m8 railcars are capable of running on all 3 different power systems (above running 3rd rail, under running 3rd rail, overhead catenary) the real issue is that it can’t use the overhead catenary past the hell gate bridge running into NJ or probably any of the overhead catenary in NJ. Should All 3 agencies study the feasibility of modifying the current M8s to be able to use the overhead catenary past the gate interlocking in Queens  and NJ or having future orders of m8s designed specifically with that ability in mind? What are some other obstacles preventing through service? What are some ways through service can better ingrate with other services (i.e NYC subways/buses, suburban buses, NJ transit buses/light rail, path e.t.c)? 

[Kamen Rider]

Penn Station through running for the commuter railroads is, to be blunt, not happening any time soon.

there are a lot of details that often get skipped over.

 

For example, Amtrak. Despite owning the station, people forget it has intercity trains there as well and

many through running plans I've seen have completely forgotten the Empire Connection.  

[Lex]

29 minutes ago, Kamen Rider said:

Penn Station through running for the commuter railroads is, to be blunt, not happening any time soon.

there are a lot of details that often get skipped over.

 

For example, Amtrak. Despite owning the station, people forget it has intercity trains there as well and

many through running plans I've seen have completely forgotten the Empire Connection.  

I've thought about having Hempstead trains run local to Croton-Harmon. (Perhaps something could be worked out so Oyster Bay can provide express service at leas as far as Peekskill, assuming that it remains in the network.) Of course, the legal entities would need to get along. PSA also leaves the Harlem Line holding the short end of the stick, as it doesn't have any track connections for service to/from Penn Station.

One of the other potential issues with through-running is that NJT seems to have no interest in having respectable high-level platforms across the system, which means that the M8s would have limited options, anyway.

[Jamall Hayden]

Septa’s Silverline V rolling stock is an E.M.U capable of serving non high level station future orders of M8s can be designed in a similar way which eliminates that issue of not being able to serve low boarding stations.

[bobtehpanda]

2 hours ago, Kamen Rider said:

Penn Station through running for the commuter railroads is, to be blunt, not happening any time soon.

there are a lot of details that often get skipped over.

 

For example, Amtrak. Despite owning the station, people forget it has intercity trains there as well and

many through running plans I've seen have completely forgotten the Empire Connection.  

Through running usually never actually means "every single train will through run." 

There will still be terminating trains. Most major train stations in systems with through running have a mix.

[Kamen Rider]

7 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

Through running usually never actually means "every single train will through run." 

There will still be terminating trains. Most major train stations in systems with through running have a mix.

Many of the through running plans I've seen call for Penn Station to be rebuilt to emphasize the through running services at the expense of the terminating ones. I distinctly remember one plan calling for the station to be split in such a way that only westbound trains could use the north half and eastbound trains use the south half. this would extend to the river tunnels as well, as tunnels 2 and 3 under the east river would have their directions reversed. 

 

Meaning a westbound Empire connection train would have to run against traffic the whole way from Sunnyside Yard.

[Lex]

14 hours ago, Jamall Hayden said:

Septa’s Silverline V rolling stock is an E.M.U capable of serving non high level station future orders of M8s can be designed in a similar way which eliminates that issue of not being able to serve low boarding stations.

How about we just not do that?

[Jamall Hayden]

Why not? 

[bobtehpanda]

14 hours ago, Jamall Hayden said:

Why not? 

Low platform + high floor is really, really inefficient. In the days of the high-floor buses, the entire line could be held up by grandma struggling up the steps. Or a wheelchair lift taking forever, and possibly breaking down.

More inefficient = more time spent on the trip. More time spent = needing to hire more people and buy more trains to run the same level of frequency. Which is bad.

On 6/30/2022 at 7:41 AM, Kamen Rider said:

Many of the through running plans I've seen call for Penn Station to be rebuilt to emphasize the through running services at the expense of the terminating ones. I distinctly remember one plan calling for the station to be split in such a way that only westbound trains could use the north half and eastbound trains use the south half. this would extend to the river tunnels as well, as tunnels 2 and 3 under the east river would have their directions reversed. 

 

Meaning a westbound Empire connection train would have to run against traffic the whole way from Sunnyside Yard.

So I agree that that would be really stupid, and also half the think tanks are on some shit (like really, a mega-station in Port Morris? I want whatever they're smoking)

I will say that, in the event a real through-running plan shows up, it would be likely that we would see significant reconfiguration of the approach tracks around Penn Station anyways because they are a major slowdown point on the NEC; and it would probably be good to have a second, north Empire Connection track anyways if something like Penn Station Phase II is ever going to happen.