Congestion Pricing Myths

[B35 via Church]

What's not making sense in this discussion is this pitting/comparing of congestion on the BQE, compared to that of congestion in Manhattan....

Let's run with this assertion that congestion on the BQE is worse.... It still does not mean that congestion isn't a significant issue in (either of) Manhattan's CBD's.... It's not some shutdown counterargument....

One thing I'm going to make clear is that I'm not in support of congestion pricing, so the contrary isn't my reason for saying any of this... I'm saying this because that argument doesn't amount to much of anything in the grand scheme of things... As was said, congestion's bad all throughout this city.... So what is really with this na na na boo boo shit?

[GojiMet86]

26 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

What's not making sense in this discussion is this pitting/comparing of congestion on the BQE, compared to that of congestion in Manhattan....

Let's run with this assertion that congestion on the BQE is worse.... It still does not mean that congestion isn't a significant issue in (either of) Manhattan's CBD's.... It's not some shutdown counterargument....

One thing I'm going to make clear is that I'm not in support of congestion pricing, so the contrary isn't my reason for saying any of this... I'm saying this because that argument doesn't amount to much of anything in the grand scheme of things... As was said, congestion's bad all throughout this city.... So what is really with this na na na boo boo shit?

"So my point is really the congestion on the BQE is worse than in Manhattan where they will be charging because traffic is supposedly so bad there."

He thinks the city is lying through its teeth about CBD congestion, that's what I have a problem with. I walk around Midtown and stand on the corners to observe too often to just simply ignore that part. My man cherry-picks too much.

[N6 Limited]

17 hours ago, GojiMet86 said:

How about not speeding? Simple as that. Too many dolts on the road who think they're the Stig.

The point is that it’s a money grab. If no one sped then they’d lower the speed limit even more to generate revenue, then cry about “congestion” and “decreased bus speeds”.

16 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

The GPS never should have sent me into Manhattan. It did so because going into Manhattan was quicker than staying in Brooklyn. So my point is really the congestion on the BQE is worse than in Manhattan where they will be charging because traffic is supposedly so bad there. 

Never? It provides the “most efficient” routes.

16 hours ago, GojiMet86 said:

And yet there are no bike lanes or pedestrian plazas on the BQE. So what's the excuse for the congestion on the BQE?

 

I-287 the one interstate from Staten Island to the Bronx that connects all 5 Boroughs, works as a Manhattan bypass and as a collector/distributor to most the Bridges and Tunnels to Manhattan, it also connects to the Long Island Expressway which is the main and only east-west expressway across Queens and Nassau (Suffolk has Sunrise Highway), etc.

The Bushwick and Cross-Brooklyn Expressways were not built and so the BQE gets traffic that would have used those highways as well.

5 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I think everyone knows that congestion is bad all over. Why? Because more people started driving. There are a number of reasons why congestion has worsened. Yes, narrowing of streets doesn't help with Vision Zero, but the big one in my mind are the explosion of FVHs and how horrendous the  has become.

FHVs are the main culprits in the whole city, but the CBD especially. Most observable plates are TLC plates, they drive slow, they stop anywhere to let off/pick up passengers, they cause blockages on side streets and wide avenues. On the highways they are the slowest vehicles as well and don’t stick to the right lane while doing so.

MTA is horrendous as you’ve mentioned, especially weekends.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

21 minutes ago, N6 Limited said:

MTA is horrendous as you’ve mentioned, especially weekends.

It is. They can't provide the service on their schedules consistently, yet they wonder why people are running to go and drive. I've lost track of how many times I have had to wait 30 minutes to over an hour because of missing buses/cancelled service, and that's with me no longer using the  to travel mainly for work purposes.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

2 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

What's not making sense in this discussion is this pitting/comparing of congestion on the BQE, compared to that of congestion in Manhattan....

Let's run with this assertion that congestion on the BQE is worse.... It still does not mean that congestion isn't a significant issue in (either of) Manhattan's CBD's.... It's not some shutdown counterargument....

One thing I'm going to make clear is that I'm not in support of congestion pricing, so the contrary isn't my reason for saying any of this... I'm saying this because that argument doesn't amount to much of anything in the grand scheme of things... As was said, congestion's bad all throughout this city.... So what is really with this na na na boo boo shit?

Increased congestion on the BQE is actually related to the congestion in the CBDs, at least during the pandemic anyway, as people that used to take public transportation have been driving into Manhattan. They have been the ones clogging up the HOV lane as well. Those that are anti-car and see no issue with the poor service the  has been providing will make blanket statements that Congestion Pricing is good because it gets cars off of the road, without saying anything about the need to hold the  accountable for running service that incentivizes transit use. I support Congestion Pricing in theory, but this plan in particular I don't support, not unless it involves major changes, particularly for people that drive because they have crap transit options. That means things like better transit late hours and off-peak, since this plan would be in place 24/7.

[checkmatechamp13]

@BrooklynBus If they start work at 1am, that means they finish around 9am (congestion time) and if they finish work at 1am, that means they start around 5pm (also congestion time). 

[GojiMet86]

7 minutes ago, N6 Limited said:

The point is that it’s a money grab. If no one sped then they’d lower the speed limit even more to generate revenue, then cry about “congestion” and “decreased bus speeds”.

It's not much of a money grab of this is rarely enforced though, is it? It's actually not as enforced as it should be. When the speed limit was higher (before Vision Zero), many people were still speeding, and enforcement was just as lax.

When the first bus lanes came into service, people said the same thing the city using them as money grabs. Fast forward to today, and enforcement is nonexistent and buses still struggle, especially along 125th Street. Not much of a cash grab there. All this fuss about nothing.

Almost like someone has driver's backs within DOT......

 

7 minutes ago, N6 Limited said:

I-287 the one interstate from Staten Island to the Bronx that connects all 5 Boroughs, works as a Manhattan bypass and as a collector/distributor to most the Bridges and Tunnels to Manhattan, it also connects to the Long Island Expressway which is the main and only east-west expressway across Queens and Nassau (Suffolk has Sunrise Highway), etc.

The Bushwick and Cross-Brooklyn Expressways were not built and so the BQE gets traffic that would have used those highways as well.

Imagine building these highways in the 1960s and 1970s through low-income East New York, Williamsburg, and Maspeth. Yes, let's bulldoze hundreds and hundreds of apartment buildings, houses, and homes. That would have destroyed these neighborhoods.

Each time these highway genuises built them, the excuse was always that they would reduce congestion. Years later, each of those highways became saturated, and traffic was brought to standstill. Then these geniuses would justify the construction of more highways because of that congestion. And this pattern repeated.

I guarantee that these unbuilt expressways would have been as congested as the BQE is today. Then what would have been the excuse?

6 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Increased congestion on the BQE is actually related to the congestion in the CBDs, at least during the pandemic anyway, as people that used to take public transportation have been driving into Manhattan. They have been the ones clogging up the HOV lane as well. Those that are anti-car and see no issue with the poor service the  has been providing will make blanket statements that Congestion Pricing is good because it gets cars off of the road, without saying anything about the need to hold the  accountable for running service that incentivizes transit use. I support Congestion Pricing in theory, but this plan in particular I don't support, not unless it involves major changes, particularly for people that drive because they have crap transit options. That means things like better transit late hours and off-peak, since this plan would be in place 24/7.

I'm on board with this, although I am not very optimistic with the whole idea that a majority car drivers would take transit if only transit was better. Realistically, it would be marginal.

I already see people complaining about having too many big bulky buses on the road. That is legit something I have heard from drivers I've been with. "If only there weren't that many buses on the road, we would have more space".

[B35 via Church]

3 hours ago, GojiMet86 said:

"So my point is really the congestion on the BQE is worse than in Manhattan where they will be charging because traffic is supposedly so bad there."

He thinks the city is lying through its teeth about CBD congestion, that's what I have a problem with. I walk around Midtown and stand on the corners to observe too often to just simply ignore that part. My man cherry-picks too much.

Right.... Anyone that knows anything about (either of) the CBD's in Manhattan, is at least privy to the congestion that plagues it.... Hell, I used to work in the West Village & one of the main reasons I didn't bother driving to work everyday was due to the backups caused by so many vehicles seeking access to the Holland Tunnel during the PM rush... Congestion to the point of gridlock during those hours... Matter of fact, wasn't it not too long ago that the MTA themselves altered (truncated) the M21 during the PM rush to where it went no further west than 6th av, as a means of evading that very issue.....

You'll have some people that'll mention it from time to time, but IMO, not enough people convey this point - the lack of Hudson River crossings causes a sizable amount of congestion in Lower Manhattan & Midtown Manhattan.... I simply don't GAF enough to sit here & pit Holland Tunnel traffic/congestion against Lincoln Tunnel traffic/congestion.....

1 hour ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Increased congestion on the BQE is actually related to the congestion in the CBDs, at least during the pandemic anyway, as people that used to take public transportation have been driving into Manhattan. They have been the ones clogging up the HOV lane as well. Those that are anti-car and see no issue with the poor service the  has been providing will make blanket statements that Congestion Pricing is good because it gets cars off of the road, without saying anything about the need to hold the  accountable for running service that incentivizes transit use. I support Congestion Pricing in theory, but this plan in particular I don't support, not unless it involves major changes, particularly for people that drive because they have crap transit options. That means things like better transit late hours and off-peak, since this plan would be in place 24/7.

Of course it's related, as people make their way to/from Manhattan by way of whatever river crossings are available - usually by way of the (limited) highway network in this city.... With that said, this sentiment that congestion on the BQE is worse than that of congestion in the CBD's in Manhattan is moot at best, as it doesn't speak of the congestion that does exist in the CBD's.....

37 minutes ago, GojiMet86 said:

I already see people complaining about having too many big bulky buses on the road. That is legit something I have heard from drivers I've been with. "If only there weren't that many buses on the road, we would have more space".

That is a very old talking point that's easily debunked.... You could take every single bus off the road & at minimum, there'd be as many more cars to take it's spot on these roads..... It's spoken as if all these daily bus commuters would either resort to cramming on trains, engage in carpooling/taking taxi's, or somehow give up on commuting altogether... Either way, it's not rooted in reality....

Edited September 11, 2022 by B35 via Church

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 hour ago, GojiMet86 said:

Imagine building these highways in the 1960s and 1970s through low-income East New York, Williamsburg, and Maspeth. Yes, let's bulldoze hundreds and hundreds of apartment buildings, houses, and homes. That would have destroyed these neighborhoods.

Each time these highway genuises built them, the excuse was always that they would reduce congestion. Years later, each of those highways became saturated, and traffic was brought to standstill. Then these geniuses would justify the construction of more highways because of that congestion. And this pattern repeated.

I guarantee that these unbuilt expressways would have been as congested as the BQE is today. Then what would have been the excuse?

I'm on board with this, although I am not very optimistic with the whole idea that a majority car drivers would take transit if only transit was better. Realistically, it would be marginal.

I already see people complaining about having too many big bulky buses on the road. That is legit something I have heard from drivers I've been with. "If only there weren't that many buses on the road, we would have more space".

Someone once told me that because I run an advocacy group, that I should be pushing transit. That's a flawed way of thinking because it assumes that a majority of trips made say within the five boroughs would be easier and quicker. Not necessarily so. What we have not done in this City is expand transit options for people. The  has really been trying to shrink them.  

You mentioned Maspeth, which is a subway desert where people have constantly asked the  for more transit options over the years, particularly more bus service. The answer has always been NO. What we have right now is a crisis on two fronts.  We have a crumbling infrastructure that is not sustainable for the kind of car growth we are seeing, BUT we also have a transit system that is not keeping up to meet our needs, and so I recognize why so many people have switched to driving, even though it is not practical for some of the trips being taken and is creating a ton of congestion. I don't know what the percentage is, but there are definitely New Yorkers that do a mix of using transit and driving.

I've heard a number of people say that they drive only when necessary. Definitely some truth in that. Where I live, parking is a pain, be it garages (most have waiting lists) or street parking, so some do a mix of the two, as some trips simply make more sense by car.

Now if we were moving the way Europe has where they continue to invest heavily in public transportation, I would be more in favor of going along with the whole transit is better because logically it is, but we have an agency that has pushed a lot of people to drive. People are not as vocal these days. When they become fed up, they simply look for alternatives. 

The other issue is the transit "grid" if you will is more much suitable in other places such as Europe, particularly Western Europe. The subways here were really built for travel into and out of Manhattan. They are not very accommodating for other types of travel, such as say West-East travel in The Bronx or West-East travel in parts of Brooklyn. 

I have definitely met people over the years that wouldn't be caught dead on any form of transit regardless of whether it is more expensive such as the commuter rails or the express buses. Those people can't be persuaded, but one argument I always hear thrown around is well I don't have good transit in my neighborhood, so I am forced to drive. Yes, for some people, it is a convenient excuse, and for others it's a legitimate issue. Convenient for those who could but would rather not.

Putting all of this aside though, what I really don't have faith in is the  to be able to meet such demands. Even if people could be convinced to use mass transit, I'm not sure the  could handle it, and I'm not talking about a huge change. I think that's really the thing being overlooked. I've heard a number of transit enthusiasts say well yeah once Congestion Pricing is implemented, transit will automatically be better. Based on what? Does that mean more reliable? More service? Earlier and later service? Right now, the only thing the  has stated is that there would be vague infrastructure improvements. Nothing has been said about more frequent service, better connections or anything of the sort for anyone that would take place immediately. That to me is troubling. If you want people to use transit, you have to incentivize them to do so.

Edited September 11, 2022 by Via Garibaldi 8

[BrooklynBus]

There are parts of the BQE that are 5 mph from 6 AM to 10 PM. That has to be worse than Manhattan CBD. Also, with Congestion Pricing and removal of a traffic lane for another bike lane on McGuinness Blvd which is an alternate for part of the BQE, traffic will get even worse with more spillover on to local streets. There are also plans to close more streets in Downtown Brooklyn so traffic will come to a complete standstill.

[N6 Limited]

On 9/12/2022 at 8:34 AM, BrooklynBus said:

There are parts of the BQE that are 5 mph from 6 AM to 10 PM. That has to be worse than Manhattan CBD. Also, with Congestion Pricing and removal of a traffic lane for another bike lane on McGuinness Blvd which is an alternate for part of the BQE, traffic will get even worse with more spillover on to local streets. There are also plans to close more streets in Downtown Brooklyn so traffic will come to a complete standstill.

It’s worse in terms of time frame, but you’re comparing 6 lanes of north-south traffic to 12+ Aves.

As for closing streets, their plan is to make driving unbearable to discourage driving. They want traffic to come to a standstill, because then they can advocate for bus lanes/ways and public transit use, if not an expansion of congestion pricing to downtown Brooklyn. They can also replace any remaining parking garages with more overpriced housing.

[LGA Link N Train]

I’m noticing Multiple factors in play.

The  and DOT wants to push Congestion Pricing as a way to charge drivers to come into Manhattan. But they’re not incentivizing anyone to take Public Transit, and by cutting service over the years, incentivizing people to drive. Meanwhile, Multiple DOT projects have been pushed into fruition with Bike Lanes and Open Streets, which makes driving unbearable in some areas so that they can advocate for better transit, yet Bus Lanes are not enforced….

Meanwhile, Gateway isn’t even finished yet which would deal with NY-NJ Congestion (even if only by a small margin) 

What kind of Backwards Logic is that?!?

[R32 3838]

None of the idiots and progressive rail fans understand that this whole thing is being done backwards. I support congestion pricing when its done right. They are rushing it while forcing MTA to make dumb decisions.

 

The Subway right now is short on equipment (mainly B division) due to the R32 retirement and the R211 delays. They also have a crew shortage. trains are running 50% full length and trains are still 300 feet. This doesn't send a good message to people who you are trying to push on to mass transit. Buses are a hit or miss, LIRR is overcrowded still and the M9s are also delayed and Express Buses are too expensive. By Default people would flock to the subway, What currently is going on doesn't send a good message at all and it will be a disaster.

 

Don't get me started on our Bean headed Mayor trying to turn The remaining portion of the Rockaway line into a damn park.

[Janine Mantzaris]

Please do not charge New Yorkers [who can not afford it] to drive to their essential jobs every day in order to serve the city.
Do not punish people for going to work. Punish people for illegal activity. Install red light cameras in every traffic light. Install more speed cameras all over the city. Make your money on illegal activity that is hurting others. Do not make your money by punishing people who are going to work.

[BrooklynBus]

1 hour ago, Janine Mantzaris said:

Please do not charge New Yorkers [who can not afford it] to drive to their essential jobs every day in order to serve the city.
Do not punish people for going to work. Punish people for illegal activity. Install red light cameras in every traffic light. Install more speed cameras all over the city. Make your money on illegal activity that is hurting others. Do not make your money by punishing people who are going to work.

Tell your elected officials. Posting here accomplishes nothing.

[Lex]

1 hour ago, Janine Mantzaris said:

Please do not charge New Yorkers [who can not afford it] to drive to their essential jobs every day in order to serve the city.
Do not punish people for going to work. Punish people for illegal activity. Install red light cameras in every traffic light. Install more speed cameras all over the city. Make your money on illegal activity that is hurting others. Do not make your money by punishing people who are going to work.

Chances are, if they can't afford to drive to/from work with congestion pricing, they can't afford to drive to/from work without it. Cars are inherently massive liabilities.

[B35 via Church]

On 12/18/2023 at 6:56 AM, Janine Mantzaris said:

Please do not charge New Yorkers [who can not afford it] to drive to their essential jobs every day in order to serve the city.
Do not punish people for going to work. Punish people for illegal activity. Install red light cameras in every traffic light. Install more speed cameras all over the city. Make your money on illegal activity that is hurting others. Do not make your money by punishing people who are going to work.

Circular argument...

I get the basis of your outcry, but you'd have been better off leaving that part out.... These are two of the things that "punishes" those of us that you're trying to make a case for.

[BrooklynBus]

On 12/18/2023 at 9:03 AM, BrooklynBus said:

On 12/18/2023 at 7:56 AM, Janine Mantzaris said:

Please do not charge New Yorkers [who can not afford it] to drive to their essential jobs every day in order to serve the city.
Do not punish people for going to work. Punish people for illegal activity. Install red light cameras in every traffic light. Install more speed cameras all over the city. Make your money on illegal activity that is hurting others. Do not make your money by punishing people who are going to work.

Punishing illegal activity is only fair when it really is illegal, not when speed limits are unrealistically low. Some are now pushing for 20 mph speed limits. Did you know that have the revenue made on red light cameras are by those going past one at a fraction of a second after the light turns red,  because there is zero lenience? Those are not people flagrantly ignoring the law but those who have miscalculated when the light will turn red since it varies by intersection. There would be a half second grace if it wasn’t purely for revenue reasons, not safety. 

Edited December 20, 2023 by BrooklynBus

[Lex]

11 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

Punishing illegal activity is only fair when it really is illegal, not when speed limits are unrealistically low. Some are now pushing for 20 mph speed limits. Did you know that have the revenue made on red light cameras are by those going past one at a fraction of a second after the light turns red,  because there is zero lenience? Those are not people flagrantly ignoring the law but those who have miscalculated when the light will turn red since it varies by intersection. There would be a half second grace if it wasn’t purely for revenue reasons, not safety. 

Maybe you haven't noticed, but sedans have become substantially less common as of late, and the ones that remain are more likely to have design choices similar to the SUVs and pickups that are displacing/replacing them (larger, boxier engine bays). In addition to dropping visibility, these front ends combined with the increases in mass make these things deadlier for pedestrians than before.

Since you don't want congestion pricing, why not push for a massive expansion in (good) bicycle infrastructure alongside improving public transportation? Actually providing meaningful alternatives to cars will drastically cut the incentive to use them, which is crucial for sustainability.

[BrooklynBus]

14 hours ago, Lex said:

Maybe you haven't noticed, but sedans have become substantially less common as of late, and the ones that remain are more likely to have design choices similar to the SUVs and pickups that are displacing/replacing them (larger, boxier engine bays). In addition to dropping visibility, these front ends combined with the increases in mass make these things deadlier for pedestrians than before.

Since you don't want congestion pricing, why not push for a massive expansion in (good) bicycle infrastructure alongside improving public transportation? Actually providing meaningful alternatives to cars will drastically cut the incentive to use them, which is crucial for sustainability.

Cycling is no solution. For one thing, it is highly weather dependent. Most will not use it for long daily trips no matter what the infrastructure is. For many trips, cars are a necessity especially if you are hauling more than you can fit in a bicycle basket. Mass transit also has its limitations and can’t be used for many trips, but that does not mean we shouldn’t invest in it. Investing in cycling only encourages more of it and reduces road capacity for other vehicles increasing congestion. Cars and bike don’t mix and the more we encourage bikes, the higher the fatalities will be. Maybe we need to place higher taxes on these larger vehicles? 

[Gotham Bus Co.]

On 12/18/2023 at 6:56 AM, Janine Mantzaris said:

Please do not charge New Yorkers [who can not afford it] to drive to their essential jobs every day in order to serve the city.

 

Please do not assume that public transportation has never existed in NYC at any time in the history of history.

[BrooklynBus]

49 minutes ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

 

Please do not assume that public transportation has never existed in NYC at any time in the history of history.

Who is making that assumption? What I was saying is that someone who works at odd hours cannot use public transportation. It isn’t fair to ask him or her to wait 60 minutes for a bus. 

[Gotham Bus Co.]

On 12/26/2023 at 9:12 PM, BrooklynBus said:

Who is making that assumption? What I was saying is that someone who works at odd hours cannot use public transportation. It isn’t fair to ask him or her to wait 60 minutes for a bus. 

 

Yet you conveniently refuse to recommend more frequent overnight service.  

 

 It's the age-old principle of "if there is even 1 person who won't benefit from this, then nobody should be allowed to benefit from this."

[BrooklynBus]

1 hour ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

 

Yet you conveniently refuse to recommend more frequent overnight service.  

 

 It's the age-old principle of "if there is even 1 person who won't benefit from this, then nobody should be allowed to benefit from this."

What are you talking about. I have always recommended more frequent overnight service.

[LGA Link N Train]

Well. Due to ongoing Lawsuits against Congestion Pricing. All future  Capital Projects have been postponed until further notice.