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How to fix farebeating? Idea Discussion Thread.


Lawrence St

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We all know that the (MTA) is losing loads of money due to rampant fare beating that they just can’t seem to address or care to fix. I brainstormed a couple of ideas to fix this issue and would like to ask for your thoughts:

SUBWAY:

1. Replace all turn styles with the ones found in systems like MBTA or WMATA which don’t allow easy farebeating and people can’t crawl under or jump over them.

2. Restore the alarm to all of the emergency gates and replace them with larger version MBTA turnstiles for people with strollers or large items so they no longer have to use the gate.

BUSES:

1. If the F5 key is hit more then 5 times in a trip, it will send an alert to the eagle team who can meet the bus and start issuing summonses. This prevents issues.

2. In addition to above, if the APC reads more passengers then those who swiped or tapped in to pay the fare, with more then 5 people, it will also send an alert to the eagle team.

2. Increase the fine for farebeating to $250.

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3 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

We all know that the (MTA) is losing loads of money due to rampant fare beating that they just can’t seem to address or care to fix. I brainstormed a couple of ideas to fix this issue and would like to ask for your thoughts:

SUBWAY:

1. Replace all turn styles with the ones found in systems like MBTA or WMATA which don’t allow easy farebeating and people can’t crawl under or jump over them.

2. Restore the alarm to all of the emergency gates and replace them with larger version MBTA turnstiles for people with strollers or large items so they no longer have to use the gate.

BUSES:

1. If the F5 key is hit more then 5 times in a trip, it will send an alert to the eagle team who can meet the bus and start issuing summonses. This prevents issues.

2. In addition to above, if the APC reads more passengers then those who swiped or tapped in to pay the fare, with more then 5 people, it will also send an alert to the eagle team.

2. Increase the fine for farebeating to $250.

I would increase the fine to $25,000 or even $100,000 ( that would show the farebeaters) - $100 or even $250 is not too much of an incentive for people to avoid farebeating, especially when late to work. However, this would have to be contingent on the turnstiles actually working (a lot of the OMNY machines have been buggy).

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4 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

We all know that the (MTA) is losing loads of money due to rampant fare beating that they just can’t seem to address or care to fix. I brainstormed a couple of ideas to fix this issue and would like to ask for your thoughts:

SUBWAY:

1. Replace all turn styles with the ones found in systems like MBTA or WMATA which don’t allow easy farebeating and people can’t crawl under or jump over them.

2. Restore the alarm to all of the emergency gates and replace them with larger version MBTA turnstiles for people with strollers or large items so they no longer have to use the gate.

BUSES:

1. If the F5 key is hit more then 5 times in a trip, it will send an alert to the eagle team who can meet the bus and start issuing summonses. This prevents issues.

2. In addition to above, if the APC reads more passengers then those who swiped or tapped in to pay the fare, with more then 5 people, it will also send an alert to the eagle team.

2. Increase the fine for farebeating to $250.

Your comments are inaccurate. The (MTA) has asked for more police to patrol. The issue is not the (MTA). They can have the NYPD issue all of the summonses they want. The District Attorney is not prosecuting farebeating and has made that abundantly clear. 

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50 minutes ago, darkstar8983 said:

I would increase the fine to $25,000 or even $100,000 ( that would show the farebeaters) - $100 or even $250 is not too much of an incentive for people to avoid farebeating, especially when late to work. However, this would have to be contingent on the turnstiles actually working (a lot of the OMNY machines have been buggy).

That is exorbitant and makes no sense, given the cost of the fare at $2.75.  The fine is currently several times the fare, which is appropriate. With no enforcement, the cost of fine is irrelevant.

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19 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Your comments are inaccurate. The (MTA) has asked for more police to patrol. The issue is not the (MTA). They can have the NYPD issue all of the summonses they want. The District Attorney is not prosecuting farebeating and has made that abundantly clear. 

Meant to say state, not MTA.

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13 minutes ago, BreeddekalbL said:

Until we fix prosecutors doing their job (alvin bragg) 

We need to prosecute fare beating as felony theft with a high fine no pleading it down 

It's simply looked at as low on the priority list as it clogs the courts that often prevents more serious cases to be heard.

The real problem is the same as in corporate America: Many older workers retired en masse during the pandemic while others died or are unable to work due to COVID (and for those alive, often having permanent damage done by COVID or having LONG COVID making them unable to work) while many workers who traditionally would hold lower roles left for higher paying jobs that in many cases they would never have gotten at young ages before the pandemic.  While this should balance out over time as you will see a much slower retirement of older workers since many who would have retired at various points already did, it's going to take a while to get to that point.  That is likely causing delays in cases being processed, which is likely why "nascence cases" like farebeating are not being prosecuted.

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10 minutes ago, Wallyhorse said:

It's simply looked at as low on the priority list as it clogs the courts that often prevents more serious cases to be heard.

The real problem is the same as in corporate America: Many older workers retired en masse during the pandemic while others died or are unable to work due to COVID (and for those alive, often having permanent damage done by COVID or having LONG COVID making them unable to work) while many workers who traditionally would hold lower roles left for higher paying jobs that in many cases they would never have gotten at young ages before the pandemic.  While this should balance out over time as you will see a much slower retirement of older workers since many who would have retired at various points already did, it's going to take a while to get to that point.  That is likely causing delays in cases being processed, which is likely why "nascence cases" like farebeating are not being prosecuted.

What a ridiculous statement. Early retirements aren't the reason. The reason for the backlog of cases is due to the pandemic. Regardless, the district attorney is not prosecuting farebeating.

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2 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

What a ridiculous statement. Early retirements aren't the reason. The reason for the backlog of cases is due to the pandemic. Regardless, the district attorney is not prosecuting farebeating.

Yes, and the early retirements are largely due to the pandemic, so one intertwines with the other.  The real problem is the DA probably has limited resources and uses them on the cases that are most important. 

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SUBWAY

1) Turnstiles and random spot checks (proof of payment), once Metrocard retires. No proof of payment? Citation which should be increased to $300

2) Higher/ADA accessible turnstiles. 

3) Fines for using the emergency exits to exit during a non emergency situation, standard $75 TAB fine similar to walking between cars

4) More HEET turnstiles, as well as more exit only turnstiles

 

BUSES

1) Proof of payment (after Metrocard retires)

2) Increase fine to $300

3) All door boarding (after Metrocard retires)

 

BOTH

1) 2 chances every year for a regular civil ticket $300 for first offense, $500 for the second offense, after the third strike, it should be classified as theft, and prosecuted as a misdemeanor (this include failure to show POP) (and assuming prosecutors stop acting like SJWs)

2) Increase access and eligibility to Fair Fares Metrocard

3) More plain clothes police officers at turnstile area

 

7 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

WMATA which don’t allow easy farebeating and people can’t crawl under or jump over them.

WMATA (like BART) is a joke lol. I could've swore I seen many people hop over there as well, and they are easier to do too.

7 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

1. If the F5 key is hit more then 5 times in a trip, it will send an alert to the eagle team who can meet the bus and start issuing summonses. This prevents issues.

2. In addition to above, if the APC reads more passengers then those who swiped or tapped in to pay the fare, with more then 5 people, it will also send an alert to the eagle team.

Well looks like the eagle team better grow 5 legs because they will be flying all over the place on Staten Island and the Bronx. Because there are more than 5 people who don't pay at the first stop

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2 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

Yes, and the early retirements are largely due to the pandemic, so one intertwines with the other.  The real problem is the DA probably has limited resources and uses them on the cases that are most important. 

The DA (the Manhattan DA) has made it abundantly clear that he is not prosecuting farebeating. The pandemic and resources has nothing to do with it.

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1 hour ago, Mtatransit said:

SUBWAY

1) Turnstiles and random spot checks (proof of payment), once Metrocard retires. No proof of payment? Citation which should be increased to $300

2) Higher/ADA accessible turnstiles. 

3) Fines for using the emergency exits to exit during a non emergency situation, standard $75 TAB fine similar to walking between cars

4) More HEET turnstiles, as well as more exit only turnstiles

 

BUSES

1) Proof of payment (after Metrocard retires)

2) Increase fine to $300

3) All door boarding (after Metrocard retires)

 

BOTH

1) 2 chances every year for a regular civil ticket $300 for first offense, $500 for the second offense, after the third strike, it should be classified as theft, and prosecuted as a misdemeanor (this include failure to show POP) (and assuming prosecutors stop acting like SJWs)

2) Increase access and eligibility to Fair Fares Metrocard

3) More plain clothes police officers at turnstile area

 

WMATA (like BART) is a joke lol. I could've swore I seen many people hop over there as well, and they are easier to do too.

Well looks like the eagle team better grow 5 legs because they will be flying all over the place on Staten Island and the Bronx. Because there are more than 5 people who don't pay at the first stop

Sounds nice. Who is supposed to be enforcing this and how do you get the DA to prosecute it?

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41 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Sounds nice. Who is supposed to be enforcing this and how do you get the DA to prosecute it?

That's the issue, DAs are acting essentially as SJWs. 

I'm proposing we take a more humanitarian approach to fare beating that is I would believe more palatable to the current progressive environment, hence the 2 strike warning before officially being charged as a crime, as well as the increase in fair fares program so there will be no more excuse that people can not afford to pay. 

 

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9 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

1. Replace all turn styles with the ones found in systems like MBTA or WMATA which don’t allow easy farebeating and people can’t crawl under or jump over them.

I remember the complaints when the current turnstiles were installed:  "While actually jumping the turnstiles is illegal, the physical ability to do so without injury is a Constitutionally protected right."

 

Maybe the answer is to get rid of fares?

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8 minutes ago, Mtatransit said:

That's the issue, DAs are acting essentially as SJWs. 

I'm proposing we take a more humanitarian approach to fare beating that is I would believe more palatable to the current progressive environment, hence the 2 strike warning before officially being charged as a crime, as well as the increase in fair fares program so there will be no more excuse that people can not afford to pay. 

 

The Fair Fares Program has been expanded, and in fact even those people that are eligible aren't taking advantage of it and you have people still hopping the turnstiles. At some point, you have to face reality and the reality is some people feel entitled to a free ride because there are no consequences if they don't pay.

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1 hour ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

The Fair Fares Program has been expanded, and in fact even those people that are eligible aren't taking advantage of it and you have people still hopping the turnstiles. At some point, you have to face reality and the reality is some people feel entitled to a free ride because there are no consequences if they don't pay.

I totally agree with you. Right now you see well to do people not paying as well. You see it everyday at Prince Street and on board Staten Island buses. 

I'm thinking while some fare beating are income related, the majority of it still has to do with lack of enforcement/lack of consequences. I mean you have almost everyone at Hempstead paying the fare, yet at SI Mall almost nobody does?

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16 minutes ago, Mtatransit said:

I totally agree with you. Right now you see well to do people not paying as well. You see it everyday at Prince Street and on board Staten Island buses. 

I'm thinking while some fare beating are income related, the majority of it still has to do with lack of enforcement/lack of consequences. I mean you have almost everyone at Hempstead paying the fare, yet at SI Mall almost nobody does?

As someone that lived on the island for over ten years, Staten Island has some very wealthy areas and some poor ones, but overall, it has the highest medican income in the entire City, which includes Manhattan, so generally speaking, it is a borough comprised of mainly homeowners and middle to upper middle income earners, which was the case with my neighborhood. That said, you will see farebeating all over the island, especially on the local buses, from the tony parts of the South Shore all the way to the North Shore. Doesn't matter how monied the area is. It's just about entitlement, though some lines go through poor areas for sure. For example, my local bus line was the S48 and my old neighborhood was supposedly the wealthiest on the island in terms of median income according to a news article a few years back. I would say from my neighborhood on towards the Ferry, most people paid. However, coming from the ferry, as you went west and went say past Port Richmond, that's where you could see fewer people pay, but this would also happen at the Staten Island Ferry.

Meanwhile, on the Staten Island express buses, you see less farebeating, but you will have people walk on thinking they don't have to pay. The difference is that the express bus operators generally will not tolerate it and will not move the bus until the fare is paid. This tactic tends to work as the clientele on the express generally pays and is of a higher income. The local buses can vary in terms of income levels and a few bus operators on my line were attacked. I heard years ago of a S48 operator being jumped at the end of the line in Arlington. He had refused to let some guys ride, so the next time they got his bus, they all paid the fare, then jumped him at the end of the line.

 

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7 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I heard years ago of a S48 operator being jumped at the end of the line in Arlington. He had refused to let some guys ride, so the next time they got his bus, they all paid the fare, then jumped him at the end of the line.

Beating up a bus driver at the end of the 48 in Arlington is one thing (they were wrong to beat him up, but I suspect the driver managed to live regardless). Its a whole different matter when it comes to fatally stabbing a Flatbush bus driver (part of then Brooklyn and Queens Transit) on the 46 due to fare evasion. That was what led to the proliferation of the plexiglass shields as standard bus equipment even before the pandemic when they ended up having it extended, with the Bush being the pilot depot as a result of the stabbing.

To be honest though, the agency needs to treat fare evasion as the problem it is. The fare enforcement on the express bus as well as commuter rail is stellar, but that also needs to extend more to the local/limited/BRT/subway too. And they also need to address local buses that have the OMNY reader out of service when a bus route is in service. I had that happen to me on Sunday on two different New Flyer buses: 6121 on the 125 to the Hub on interval #408 out of 100 Street and 682 on the 31 to Westchester Square via Edenwald Houses on interval #608 out of the Coliseum. Both bus drivers noticed that I was trying to use my OMNY card and they were surprisingly very understanding about the out of service OMNY readers on their buses.

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10 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

As someone that lived on the island for over ten years, Staten Island has some very wealthy areas and some poor ones, but overall, it has the highest medican income in the entire City, which includes Manhattan, so generally speaking, it is a borough comprised of mainly homeowners and middle to upper middle income earners, which was the case with my neighborhood. That said, you will see farebeating all over the island, especially on the local buses, from the tony parts of the South Shore all the way to the North Shore. Doesn't matter how monied the area is. It's just about entitlement, though some lines go through poor areas for sure. For example, my local bus line was the S48 and my old neighborhood was supposedly the wealthiest on the island in terms of median income according to a news article a few years back. I would say from my neighborhood on towards the Ferry, most people paid. However, coming from the ferry, as you went west and went say past Port Richmond, that's where you could see fewer people pay, but this would also happen at the Staten Island Ferry.

Meanwhile, on the Staten Island express buses, you see less farebeating, but you will have people walk on thinking they don't have to pay. The difference is that the express bus operators generally will not tolerate it and will not move the bus until the fare is paid. This tactic tends to work as the clientele on the express generally pays and is of a higher income. The local buses can vary in terms of income levels and a few bus operators on my line were attacked. I heard years ago of a S48 operator being jumped at the end of the line in Arlington. He had refused to let some guys ride, so the next time they got his bus, they all paid the fare, then jumped him at the end of the line.

 

I remember being on the X1 (yes, the old X1...remember?)...anyway, this guy got on at Hylan Blvd around New Dorp Lane? heading towards Eltingville. The driver tried to explain that it's drop off only. The guy went and sat down. Next thing I know, the parking brake was activated...then about a few minutes, passengers...passengers approached this guy and threw him off the bus. When I got to Eltingville Transit Center, I saw the S79 (before SBS) enter the area...and that guy got off.

Yes I agree with you here.

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2 hours ago, 4 via Mosholu said:

Beating up a bus driver at the end of the 48 in Arlington is one thing (they were wrong to beat him up, but I suspect the driver managed to live regardless). Its a whole different matter when it comes to fatally stabbing a Flatbush bus driver (part of then Brooklyn and Queens Transit) on the 46 due to fare evasion. That was what led to the proliferation of the plexiglass shields as standard bus equipment even before the pandemic when they ended up having it extended, with the Bush being the pilot depot as a result of the stabbing.

To be honest though, the agency needs to treat fare evasion as the problem it is. The fare enforcement on the express bus as well as commuter rail is stellar, but that also needs to extend more to the local/limited/BRT/subway too. And they also need to address local buses that have the OMNY reader out of service when a bus route is in service. I had that happen to me on Sunday on two different New Flyer buses: 6121 on the 125 to the Hub on interval #408 out of 100 Street and 682 on the 31 to Westchester Square via Edenwald Houses on interval #608 out of the Coliseum. Both bus drivers noticed that I was trying to use my OMNY card and they were surprisingly very understanding about the out of service OMNY readers on their buses.

I mentioned that bus operator as an example to show that in the past some drivers would confront people trying to ride for free on the local buses and also to show that they shouldn't be.

You mentioned Metro-North and the express bus... I've been a Metro-North commuter for over ten years and I can tell you that while the majority pay, you have people that farebeat on those trains as well. On the Hudson Line, it's usually up to and south of the Marble Hill station. I have not seen such farebeating on the New Haven or Harlem lines, likely because of how ticket checking is structured on those lines. Usually if people get on at Morris Heights, University Heights or Yankees-East 153rd St, they will hide in the bathroom for those few stops to avoid being checked for a ticket - not a ton of people do this, but it does happen occasionally. Some conductors are used to this trick and will knock on the bathroom doors to try to get them out. In other instances, there isn't someone checking tickets sometimes until after Marble Hill. Of late, I have been taking the semi-express trains that skip those stops, so I cannot say how farebeating has been, but I have not seen such behavior since the pandemic started overall when I have used those trains.

Even so, Metro-North has a different setup being a commuter rail system. It is generally easier to control fare beating with the ticket checkers. Smaller crowds too. For example, there was a train I used to take at night pre-pandemic home to Riverdale that only had three or four train cars open for revenue service. That pretty much made it almost impossible to farebeat. Additionally, the (MTA) also has their own Police to monitor those trains. The express bus is also easier to monitor, as you only have one entrance/exit, so the driver can see who paid and who didn't.

The local buses are a different situation entirely. The NYPD is not under the purview of the (MTA) like the (MTA) Police is, so all they can do is ask that more cops be allocated to check the buses and the subway. In other systems I have used outside of the US, usually the bus operators do not get involved with any fare collection. They just drive and an inspector goes around to check tickets. That too is problematic, as people will run to stamp their ticket when they see a fare inspector come on the bus. Here with the local buses, it is a complicated situation, given the front and back door (or three doors on the artic buses). On Staten Island, the only time we had farebeating improve is when elected officials demanded that something was done because the(MTA) was losing so much money. They'd do an undercover sting operation for a while, and then it was back to normal. Having the resources to have cops dedicated for that is an expensive operation, and another challenge, especially with violent crime being an issue.

The political climate has changed now, with some voters saying that farebeating is linked to income levels (I don't believe it is, as people of all income levels are doing it), and with the Fair Fares Program, what should be happening is it should be better promoted. Currently, there are a number of people eligible for it that either don't know about it or don't participate.

OMNY is a separate issue. Some months ago, the (MTA) noted that they were having software issues with the new payment system, which has persisted. The readers are often broken on the express buses too. I got a free ride Sunday going home, as I no longer use a Metrocard. On average for a while, I was getting a free ride at least once a week, which is quite high, as I am only commuting two or three times a week - that is leisure and work. If or when that situation will improve is anyone's guess. The bus operators have no choice but to be understanding because they were told to not confront riders about broken OMNY readers. I had a driver that was very rude with me about it earlier on (the OMNY reader was frozen and he didn't realize until later on, but he had called me up to the front again to "scold" me in front of other passengers, essentially implying that I was an idiot, as he pulled out his own bank card to "show me" how to tap and go, something I had been doing for years, since tap and go was available over a decade ago lol) and I filed a formal complaint, as it was unnecessary. It should be treated as a broken fare box, which is what it is. When the fare box is broken, you ride for free. The same with the OMNY reader. I don't live near a subway, so I have an OMNY card that I reload on the go and use to commute with and have been since last year. Makes life a lot easier. OMNY has also been around long enough now that the drivers know how often they don't work.

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8
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36 minutes ago, The TransitMan said:

I remember being on the X1 (yes, the old X1...remember?)...anyway, this guy got on at Hylan Blvd around New Dorp Lane? heading towards Eltingville. The driver tried to explain that it's drop off only. The guy went and sat down. Next thing I know, the parking brake was activated...then about a few minutes, passengers...passengers approached this guy and threw him off the bus. When I got to Eltingville Transit Center, I saw the S79 (before SBS) enter the area...and that guy got off.

Yes I agree with you here.

Yes, farebeating on the express bus is not common, but on Staten Island, I saw the most during the weekends, which makes sense. Pre-pandemic, during the week, you usually ride with the same people every day, as most people have the same work schedules, so they take the same express bus every morning and evening, hence the term "regulars". Pre-pandemic, you wouldn't have so many non-regulars during the week (that has changed now with the pandemic - lots of newbies riding and people riding at different hours that had more set schedules). On weekends however is when you would usually have more non-regulars and when I would see the most farebeating when I lived on Staten Island with the old "X" system. The X10 was much worse than than the X1. We had a young guy board at Targee and Narrows Road South. He thought he was going to get on and not pay. It was a crowded bus and he was holding up service, so a few us (myself included) got him off, as the driver was not having any of it, and we wanted to get going.  On another occasion, again on the X10, a couple walked on at the last pick-up in Manhattan, took a seat like nothing happened and thought nothing of paying. We sit there and the driver comes on over the loud speaker to demand that they pay and noted that he wouldn't move until they did. Well then they started asking people to dip in exchange for them giving them cash. Once that was resolved, we were on our way. Point is, it is easier to control on the express bus because the driver can see who pays and it isn't as rampant of an issue since it is not tolerated in the first place.

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For the subways, I see this mainly as a design problem. Therefore I essentially agree with the OP's first two suggestions.

The current turnstile design makes it way too easy to jump or duck under. There are plenty of more modern designs that make it vastly more physically difficult. 

The situation with the emergency exit gates just makes the problem worse. It's too easy to use them to beat the fare. Using them as makeshift ADA access was always a terrible idea. The solution is simple and it's what every other system in the world does: every set of turnstiles needs one wide gate for ADA access, (and strollers and luggage, etc.) Then we can restore the emergency exits to their proper function, with loud alarms and everything. 

Honestly, the current fare control design — all of it — invites fare-beating. I think it's so easy that some people feel like suckers if they do pay. It definitely seems like some people think it's rude NOT to hold the exit gate open for others to not pay. That's crazy, but it's a design problem that can be fixed. It's a solved problem, we just need to get over the NY exceptionalism crap and look at what other systems are doing. 

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On 8/10/2022 at 7:20 PM, rbrome said:

For the subways, I see this mainly as a design problem. Therefore I essentially agree with the OP's first two suggestions.

The current turnstile design makes it way too easy to jump or duck under. There are plenty of more modern designs that make it vastly more physically difficult. 

The situation with the emergency exit gates just makes the problem worse. It's too easy to use them to beat the fare. Using them as makeshift ADA access was always a terrible idea. The solution is simple and it's what every other system in the world does: every set of turnstiles needs one wide gate for ADA access, (and strollers and luggage, etc.) Then we can restore the emergency exits to their proper function, with loud alarms and everything. 

Honestly, the current fare control design — all of it — invites fare-beating. I think it's so easy that some people feel like suckers if they do pay. It definitely seems like some people think it's rude NOT to hold the exit gate open for others to not pay. That's crazy, but it's a design problem that can be fixed. It's a solved problem, we just need to get over the NY exceptionalism crap and look at what other systems are doing. 

Hell, you have people on TikTok out of all things telling other people to farebeat and show them how to do it.

They need to redesign the turnstile system, like yesterday. They can’t keep crying broke if they do nothing to fix it.

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On 8/8/2022 at 4:13 PM, Gotham Bus Co. said:

"While actually jumping the turnstiles is illegal, the physical ability to do so without injury is a Constitutionally protected right."

How do we have a society where this is normal while on television, bad guys getting maimed/killed is the expected form of justice?

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