How to fix farebeating? Idea Discussion Thread.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

On 8/10/2022 at 7:20 PM, rbrome said:

For the subways, I see this mainly as a design problem. Therefore I essentially agree with the OP's first two suggestions.

The current turnstile design makes it way too easy to jump or duck under. There are plenty of more modern designs that make it vastly more physically difficult. 

The situation with the emergency exit gates just makes the problem worse. It's too easy to use them to beat the fare. Using them as makeshift ADA access was always a terrible idea. The solution is simple and it's what every other system in the world does: every set of turnstiles needs one wide gate for ADA access, (and strollers and luggage, etc.) Then we can restore the emergency exits to their proper function, with loud alarms and everything. 

Honestly, the current fare control design — all of it — invites fare-beating. I think it's so easy that some people feel like suckers if they do pay. It definitely seems like some people think it's rude NOT to hold the exit gate open for others to not pay. That's crazy, but it's a design problem that can be fixed. It's a solved problem, we just need to get over the NY exceptionalism crap and look at what other systems are doing. 

So am I understanding this correctly? You want an ADA gate AND an emergency exit as well, in addition to redesigning the turnstiles? I'm just wondering how farebeating would be deterred with those wide gates for ADA access? What would be the deterrent from people still using those?

[Maxwell179]

On 8/8/2022 at 10:08 AM, darkstar8983 said:

I would increase the fine to $25,000 or even $100,000 ( that would show the farebeaters) - $100 or even $250 is not too much of an incentive for people to avoid farebeating, especially when late to work. However, this would have to be contingent on the turnstiles actually working (a lot of the OMNY machines have been buggy).

$25k to 10% of a million dollars for not paying at $2.75 fare ? Make it make sense dumbass

[rbrome]

On 8/12/2022 at 3:06 PM, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

So am I understanding this correctly? You want an ADA gate AND an emergency exit as well, in addition to redesigning the turnstiles? I'm just wondering how farebeating would be deterred with those wide gates for ADA access? What would be the deterrent from people still using those?

It is not difficult to design a wide fare gate (for ADA, strollers, and luggage) that is difficult to jump. Barcelona is a great example. 

Emergency exits should be solely for emergencies. 

The turnstile redesign and wide (ADA) fare gate are part of the same thing. We need new turnstiles that are more difficult to jump, and that should simply include one wide one in each set. 

Paris has even figured out a way to retrofit anti-jumping barriers on standard turnstiles like NYC's. It doesn't have to be a complete rip-and-replacement. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

3 minutes ago, rbrome said:

It is not difficult to design a wide fare gate (for ADA, strollers, and luggage) that is difficult to jump. Barcelona is a great example. 

Emergency exits should be solely for emergencies. 

The turnstile redesign and wide (ADA) fare gate are part of the same thing. We need new turnstiles that are more difficult to jump, and that should simply include one wide one in each set. 

Paris has even figured out a way to retrofit anti-jumping barriers on standard turnstiles like NYC's. It doesn't have to be a complete rip-and-replacement. 

You didn't really answer my question. I have lived in Europe, so I am very familiar with different transit systems, having traveled extensively. I'm just trying to understand what you are proposing. With a few exceptions, most of the subway systems elsewhere are fairly small (The Paris Métro is one of the exceptions), but the honor system in Europe is comical to say the least, so I'm not sure if that is a good model to quote. France in particular has had an anti-payment attitude for years, where the youth strive to beat the fare where possible. In Italy where I lived, it was not much better. Florence doesn't have a subway, but rather an extensive bus system, and there when I used the bus, I saw rampant farebeating, despite having the inspectors randomly check.

Rome and Milan both have subway systems, but they are tiny. I've used the one in Rome for a few stops, and do recall most people paying.

[Lawrence St]

The amount of farebeating I’ve seen at Woodlawn today in just 10 minutes is incredible…this issue needs to be fixed like yesterday.

[B35 via Church]

16 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

The amount of farebeating I’ve seen at Woodlawn today in just 10 minutes is incredible…this issue needs to be fixed like yesterday.

pfft, at Atlantic av on the , the emergency gate/door has been tied to where it's wide open for weeks now.... Cops standing either right there a few feet from the door, or upstairs at platform level..... This is what you get when the MTA continues to be laissez-FAIRE about the issue.

[CenSin]

Canal Street () is a farce. There is a homeless guy holding the door open shaking his cup of coins nearly every day. Only when the cops are there he is gone. They don’t bother arresting or jailing them.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 hour ago, CenSin said:

Canal Street () is a farce. There is a homeless guy holding the door open shaking his cup of coins nearly every day. Only when the cops are there he is gone. They don’t bother arresting or jailing them.

And what would be the point when he will be released hours later? People keep complaining about the police, but never complain about the District Attorneys not prosecuting such things. Each time an arrest happens, those cops are taken off the beat to process paperwork for these perps. Waste of time.

[Lawrence St]

I think  should start telling operators to not press F3 when someone doesn't pay. Then look at the trips with the lowest number of passengers and cut it, watch how fast everyone starts paying.

[Lex]

6 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

I think  should start telling operators to not press F3 when someone doesn't pay. Then look at the trips with the lowest number of passengers and cut it, watch how fast everyone starts paying.

I'll be charitable and say this is a naïve statement.

[Lawrence St]

6 hours ago, Lex said:

I'll be charitable and say this is a naïve statement.

Not at all. Why are we continuing to provide service for those that don’t pay when we could instead use those resources for other lines for people who do pay?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

19 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

Not at all. Why are we continuing to provide service for those that don’t pay when we could instead use those resources for other lines for people who do pay?

That would receive big backlash from elected officials, esp. in working class and poor communities where people are heavily dependent on the local bus and subway vs upper income neighborhoods. You would be punishing the people that do pay as well who have no other way to get around. It's a well-known fact that generally speaking, fare beating is higher in poorer areas, BUT happens to some degree in MANY areas of NYC regardless of income. Just a question of how much. For example, we do have a few farebeaters in my area. There was a hippie looking White guy some years ago who would get on at my stop and beg the driver to let him on, which I found bold because he would specifically board the express bus trying to do this and I noticed this a few times going to the City. He had no problem asking me for a dip from my Metrocard, which is totally out of the question, as I don't believe in paying for fare beaters and giving handouts to people that are capable of taking care of themselves. Drivers caught on to him quick and whatever excuse he was using didn't matter, as he was not allowed on. On the same token, I have seen farebeating attempts with the local buses in my area, but with teens from outside of the neighborhood, going back to wherever they live. Some drivers don't accept the excuse of they don't have a school pass or whatever they tell the driver. Noticed this waiting for my express bus one morning. Kid had to wait for a few Bx10 buses before a driver let him on. 

But what I have seen at 231st and Broadway years ago when I have needed the  train, is I have taken the local bus and noticed rampant farebeating immediately as the bus approached Broadway & 231st. The ridership pretty much changes, as the people from Riverdale get off for the subway and people (usually young types) will board through the back door like it's nothing. This was when I walked down the hill and caught a Bx1 from Riverdale Av & 231st to the train station.  I have not taken the local bus in the area in quite some time, so I have no idea what it's like now, and with the express bus, it has been a while since anyone legitimately was trying to get over. There was a young White chick that got on at 63rd & Broadway on the BxM2 years ago and the driver gave her a good talking to before letting her on. Now what I see is people that have the wrong Metrocard like a regular unlimited trying to pay for the express bus. Again, a one-time excuse, but not something that will be accepted over and over.

As I said though, if I were comparing my neighborhood to say the South Bronx or even working class neighborhoods nearby like Kingsbridge Heights, using your method, those areas would lose quite a bit of service.

[Lawrence St]

4 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

That would receive big backlash from elected officials, esp. in working class and poor communities where people are heavily dependent on the local bus and subway vs upper income neighborhoods. You would be punishing the people that do pay as well who have no other way to get around. It's a well-known fact that generally speaking, fare beating is higher in poorer areas, BUT happens to some degree in MANY areas of NYC regardless of income. Just a question of how much. For example, we do have a few farebeaters in my area. There was a hippie looking White guy some years ago who would get on at my stop and beg the driver to let him on, which I found bold because he would specifically board the express bus trying to do this and I noticed this a few times going to the City. He had no problem asking me for a dip from my Metrocard, which is totally out of the question, as I don't believe in paying for fare beaters and giving handouts to people that are capable of taking care of themselves. Drivers caught on to him quick and whatever excuse he was using didn't matter, as he was not allowed on. On the same token, I have seen farebeating attempts with the local buses in my area, but with teens from outside of the neighborhood, going back to wherever they live. Some drivers don't accept the excuse of they don't have a school pass or whatever they tell the driver. Noticed this waiting for my express bus one morning. Kid had to wait for a few Bx10 buses before a driver let him on. 

But what I have seen at 231st and Broadway years ago when I have needed the  train, is I have taken the local bus and noticed rampant farebeating immediately as the bus approached Broadway & 231st. The ridership pretty much changes, as the people from Riverdale get off for the subway and people (usually young types) will board through the back door like it's nothing. This was when I walked down the hill and caught a Bx1 from Riverdale Av & 231st to the train station.  I have not taken the local bus in the area in quite some time, so I have no idea what it's like now, and with the express bus, it has been a while since anyone legitimately was trying to get over. There was a young White chick that got on at 63rd & Broadway on the BxM2 years ago and the driver gave her a good talking to before letting her on. Now what I see is people that have the wrong Metrocard like a regular unlimited trying to pay for the express bus. Again, a one-time excuse, but not something that will be accepted over and over.

As I said though, if I were comparing my neighborhood to say the South Bronx or even working class neighborhoods nearby like Kingsbridge Heights, using your method, those areas would lose quite a bit of service.

The only thing our elected officials care about is complaining about the state of the subway, NYPD and bike lanes/street redesigns. That’s literally all I see on my news feed.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

22 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

The only thing our elected officials care about is complaining about the state of the subway, NYPD and bike lanes/street redesigns. That’s literally all I see on my news feed.

It's not "cool" or politically correct to call out freeloaders these days. That's the truth. The amount of excuses made for people that are capable of paying is mind boggling, but this is how things are now in NYC in general. The lovely district attorneys aren't prosecuting serial shoplifters, bank robbers, etc., so don't expect anything to be done about farebeating in the near future. On the same token, I'm not absolving the  of their "misfortunes" either. They are partially to blame as well. They have not taken a hard stance on this issue for years, and as a taxpayer and commuter, I have been highly outspoken about their refusal to address this problem, going back to the last set of hearings they had on proposed fare hikes that were not enacted due to the backlash they received. No way should those of us who pay face fare increases for those that don't. 

The Pandora's box was opened years ago and now it's going to be difficult to get it closed.

Edited August 25, 2022 by Via Garibaldi 8

[shiznit1987]

In the short term, the answer is HEETs, HEETs and more HEETs. 

In the longer term, I'd like a two-door system where the first set of barriers are open and the second closed, tap your OMNY/Metrocard, that first set of doors closes behind you and the second one that's in front of you opens. The turnstile resets to close the second set of doors and open the first after 2 seconds for the next passenger. This is so people don't try to jam their way in behind people. 

I don't have any answer for the buses other than expanding the eagle teams to non SBS routes. 

 

[Mtatransit]

I still stand by the fact that we need eagle teams on both subway and buses.

This is in addition to additional harder to farebeat turnstiles, prohibiting the use of emergency gates, with new ADA turnstiles

On 8/24/2022 at 9:10 AM, Lawrence St said:

Not at all. Why are we continuing to provide service for those that don’t pay when we could instead use those resources for other lines for people who do pay?

Bronx will stand to lose >50% of service, it would most likely violate some sort of Title 6. Staten Island will lose over 40%.

11 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

There was a hippie looking White guy some years ago who would get on at my stop and beg the driver to let him on, which I found bold because he would specifically board the express bus trying to do this and I noticed this a few times going to the City. He had no problem asking me for a dip from my Metrocard, which is totally out of the question, as I don't believe in paying for fare beaters and giving handouts to people that are capable of taking care of themselves. Drivers caught on to him quick and whatever excuse he was using didn't matter, as he was not allowed on. On the same token, I have seen farebeating attempts with the local buses in my area, but with teens from outside of the neighborhood, going back to wherever they live. Some drivers don't accept the excuse of they don't have a school pass or whatever they tell the driver. Noticed this waiting for my express bus one morning. Kid had to wait for a few Bx10 buses before a driver let him on. 

 

The fare beating has been so bad that I'm actually more okay with passengers creating a sob story for the driver, instead of hopping in the backdoor, or just walking on thru the front.

On Staten Island, you literally have teenagers taking the bus for two stops wasting everyone time, and of course they would because its free.

One of these weeks I'm going to finally just join em, and if I see no one at the stop I'm boarding paying, I'm just gonna put my Metrocard away as well. Sick of being the sucker whenever I'm on the island

[Via Garibaldi 8]

45 minutes ago, Mtatransit said:

The fare beating has been so bad that I'm actually more okay with passengers creating a sob story for the driver, instead of hopping in the backdoor, or just walking on thru the front.

On Staten Island, you literally have teenagers taking the bus for two stops wasting everyone time, and of course they would because its free.

One of these weeks I'm going to finally just join em, and if I see no one at the stop I'm boarding paying, I'm just gonna put my Metrocard away as well. Sick of being the sucker whenever I'm on the island

I just viewed a video at some subway station where at least seven people walk through the emergency gate in less than a minute. I think one person actually paid. If you've got seven people not paying for every one that does, that is a pretty bad ratio to say the least. 

[T to Dyre Avenue]

For subways I think they should replace the current turnstiles with rotogates. That, at least, would put a stop to people jumping the turnstiles to avoid paying the fare. Though that’s not going to help very much if the MTA doesn’t start treating its emergency gates like, well, emergency gates and stops leaving them unlocked. 

[Nova Fly Guy]

Fare evasion is the least amount of problems for the MTA let’s start with Fixing service. Not wasting money on point less project such as Face recognition or supervisors sitting in cars burning gas all day. NY state is not going to lock someone up for 2.75 that is a waste of resources and will crowd facilities even more.

Edited August 27, 2022 by Nova Fly Guy

[Via Garibaldi 8]

10 hours ago, Nova Fly Guy said:

Fare evasion is the least amount of problems for the MTA let’s start with Fixing service. Not wasting money on point less project such as Face recognition or supervisors sitting in cars burning gas all day. NY state is not going to lock someone up for 2.75 that is a waste of resources and will crowd facilities even more.

You obviously have no idea how the is funded. Fare evasion IS a problem and regardless of whether or not fare beaters are prosecuted, that still has nothing to do with the losing that money, which is the issue. Thedepends on fare revenue for almost HALF of the money it receives to operate (it's about 38% of the overall funds it gets for its operating budget). That is why it is in trouble now because between people working from home and fare evasion, it is losing a chunk of funding to function.

https://new.mta.info/budget/MTA-operating-budget-basics

They also note the toll revenue in the above link, which makes up 12% of what it needs, so between toll revenues and fare revenues, that is exactly 50% right there. They have been having people racking up thousands of dollars in unpaid tolls and other people using mechanisms to avoid paying tolls, including their own employees. They are only now going after those people. Meanwhile, they have done nothing about fare evasion. By their own estimates, just in the last four years alone, they have lost over $1 billion dollars to fare evasion, not including lost revenue from people that have stopped using the . It's basic math. Their operating costs continue to increase and will only grow as each year passes. Their debt continues to increase, as they borrow more and are charged higher interest rates, as their rating decreases as a result of being seen as a riskier borrower, and their revenues are decreasing for some of the reasons I mentioned. That money has to come from somewhere...

Edited August 27, 2022 by Via Garibaldi 8

[Trainmaster5]

6 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

You obviously have no idea how the is funded. Fare evasion IS a problem and regardless of whether or not fare beaters are prosecuted, that still has nothing to do with the losing that money, which is the issue. Thedepends on fare revenue for almost HALF of the money it receives to operate (it's about 38% of the overall funds it gets for its operating budget). That is why it is in trouble now because between people working from home and fare evasion, it is losing a chunk of funding to function.

https://new.mta.info/budget/MTA-operating-budget-basics

They also note the toll revenue in the above link, which makes up 12% of what it needs, so between toll revenues and fare revenues, that is exactly 50% right there. They have been having people racking up thousands of dollars in unpaid tolls and other people using mechanisms to avoid paying tolls, including their own employees. They are only now going after those people. Meanwhile, they have done nothing about fare evasion. By their own estimates, just in the last four years alone, they have lost over $1 billion dollars to fare evasion, not including lost revenue from people that have stopped using the . It's basic math. Their operating costs continue to increase and will only grow as each year passes. Their debt continues to increase, as they borrow more and are charged higher interest rates, as their rating decreases as a result of being seen as a riskier borrower, and their revenues are decreasing for some of the reasons I mentioned. That money has to come from somewhere...

Thanks for the analysis. Maybe there should be a “ sticky “ explaining capital vs operating budgets and the like on the forums 😁. I wonder if basic economics is still taught in schools around here. I witnessed the inception of what is now the  , the addition of the NYCTA into the mix and I’m probably guessing the demise of the present day . Something’s gotta change soon. My opinion. Carry on.  

[B35 via Church]

12 minutes ago, Trainmaster5 said:

Thanks for the analysis. Maybe there should be a “ sticky “ explaining capital vs operating budgets and the like on the forums 😁. I wonder if basic economics is still taught in schools around here. I witnessed the inception of what is now the  , the addition of the NYCTA into the mix and I’m probably guessing the demise of the present day . Something’s gotta change soon. My opinion. Carry on.  

There needs to be an explanation of the concept of FUNDING.

Hell with school aged kids, I don't doubt there's adults on here that believe the MTA's operating budgets are wholly reliant on farebox revenue...

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 hour ago, Trainmaster5 said:

Thanks for the analysis. Maybe there should be a “ sticky “ explaining capital vs operating budgets and the like on the forums 😁. I wonder if basic economics is still taught in schools around here. I witnessed the inception of what is now the  , the addition of the NYCTA into the mix and I’m probably guessing the demise of the present day . Something’s gotta change soon. My opinion. Carry on.  

Yeah, unfortunately some people confuse their capital budget and their operating budget. They are not one and the same and are funded differently. A chunk of the capital budget is funded years in advance. Both are problematic in terms of how they are funded and involve too much borrowing, but their operational budget is esp. volatile now with them trying to predict ridership levels and revenue from that, which they overestimated substantially, as it has not recovered as quickly as they thought it would. Now they are trying to figure out how to get people back. It's very simple. Get the crime in the subways under control. A lot of the issues in the subway are tied to fare evasion, as the perps creating the problems are not paying and some people refuse to use them, myself included. The days that I go into Manhattan, I take the express bus and I will grab an Uber or Revel from there if I need to be elsewhere that the bus does not go to.

Edited August 27, 2022 by Via Garibaldi 8

[david weiss]

Fare beating WAS controlled when police were present and arresting people. Emergency gates or for people with packages/strollers will counteract newer turnstiles. Police presence also has the effect of reducing crime.