lack of Manhattan-bound trains during afternoon rush hours

[Marco927]

A few weeks I was standing on the Manhattan-bound platform at Hickville trying to take a train to Manhattan at around 6 pm, on a weekday. For more than half an hour, every train arriving at Hickville were east-bound trains, even the trains arriving at the north track (Manhattan bound) were east-bound trains. 

I couldn't comprehend that all the trains were east-bound. I felt l had gotten into a twilight zone where trains only run in one direction. 

When I checked the newest LIRR train schedules, I found out that after the 5:29 train, the next train is at 6:35. That is a period of 1 hour and 6 minutes without any Manhattan-bound trains at Hickville. If you want to take a LIRR train to Manhattan around 6 pm to see a Broadway show, Knicks, or Rangers game, does it mean you have to plan for lack of city-bound trains around 6 pm?

I guess that is because both tracks were used by east-bound trains. Now that Third Track project is finished, when will LIRR add more Manhattan-bound trains around 6 pm? Why will east bound and west bound passengers begin to see the benefits of the third track?

[I love NY]

And this is another strange situation...

Daylight Saving Added Service, Sunday, November 6, 2022.

Babylon Branch: https://new.mta.info/document/98786

Ronkonkoma Branch: https://new.mta.info/document/98791

Why only these 2 extra eastbound trips?

Why not also these 3 extra westbound trips (2:10am from Port Washington - 2:13am from Ronkonkoma - 2:19am from Huntington)?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

3 hours ago, Marco927 said:

A few weeks I was standing on the Manhattan-bound platform at Hickville trying to take a train to Manhattan at around 6 pm, on a weekday. For more than half an hour, every train arriving at Hickville were east-bound trains, even the trains arriving at the north track (Manhattan bound) were east-bound trains. 

I couldn't comprehend that all the trains were east-bound. I felt l had gotten into a twilight zone where trains only run in one direction. 

When I checked the newest LIRR train schedules, I found out that after the 5:29 train, the next train is at 6:35. That is a period of 1 hour and 6 minutes without any Manhattan-bound trains at Hickville. If you want to take a LIRR train to Manhattan around 6 pm to see a Broadway show, Knicks, or Rangers game, does it mean you have to plan for lack of city-bound trains around 6 pm?

I guess that is because both tracks were used by east-bound trains. Now that Third Track project is finished, when will LIRR add more Manhattan-bound trains around 6 pm? Why will east bound and west bound passengers begin to see the benefits of the third track?

1. I don't know why you would go to the station and just expect a train to show up. It's a railroad, not a subway.

2. Service was cut across the railroads because of lower ridership because of the pandemic. I experienced the same thing on my line with an even longer wait months ago, but that was going from Manhattan to Riverdale.  After complaining to Metro-North about the almost hour and 30 minute gap and my elected officials, they agreed to restore the train, along with other service, but not all service will come back because the ridership isn't there.

[jaf0519]

4 hours ago, Marco927 said:

A few weeks I was standing on the Manhattan-bound platform at Hickville trying to take a train to Manhattan at around 6 pm, on a weekday. For more than half an hour, every train arriving at Hickville were east-bound trains, even the trains arriving at the north track (Manhattan bound) were east-bound trains. 

I couldn't comprehend that all the trains were east-bound. I felt l had gotten into a twilight zone where trains only run in one direction. 

When I checked the newest LIRR train schedules, I found out that after the 5:29 train, the next train is at 6:35. That is a period of 1 hour and 6 minutes without any Manhattan-bound trains at Hickville. If you want to take a LIRR train to Manhattan around 6 pm to see a Broadway show, Knicks, or Rangers game, does it mean you have to plan for lack of city-bound trains around 6 pm?

I guess that is because both tracks were used by east-bound trains. Now that Third Track project is finished, when will LIRR add more Manhattan-bound trains around 6 pm? Why will east bound and west bound passengers begin to see the benefits of the third track?

Well, its the same in the morning too. An eastbound train arrives at Hicksville at 6:48 AM and then nothing until 8:25 AM. The Main Line does not have much room for reverse peak service during the height of rush hours due to there only being two tracks, at least until the third track and additional service to Grand Central starts likely at the end of the year.

[I love NY]

6 hours ago, Marco927 said:

A few weeks I was standing on the Manhattan-bound platform at Hickville trying to take a train to Manhattan at around 6 pm, on a weekday. For more than half an hour, every train arriving at Hickville were east-bound trains, even the trains arriving at the north track (Manhattan bound) were east-bound trains. 

I couldn't comprehend that all the trains were east-bound. I felt l had gotten into a twilight zone where trains only run in one direction. 

When I checked the newest LIRR train schedules, I found out that after the 5:29 train, the next train is at 6:35. That is a period of 1 hour and 6 minutes without any Manhattan-bound trains at Hickville. If you want to take a LIRR train to Manhattan around 6 pm to see a Broadway show, Knicks, or Rangers game, does it mean you have to plan for lack of city-bound trains around 6 pm?

I guess that is because both tracks were used by east-bound trains. Now that Third Track project is finished, when will LIRR add more Manhattan-bound trains around 6 pm? Why will east bound and west bound passengers begin to see the benefits of the third track?

Dear Marco, from next month, between 5:29pm and 6:38pm, there will be 7 trains...

https://new.mta.info/document/85026

Edited November 4, 2022 by I love NY

[NewFlyer 230]

It will be interesting to see how things play out when they add service when Grand Central opens up for the LIRR. 
 

There are definitely moments during the day where service on the LIRR is infrequent. I take the LIRR sometimes from Jamaica to Valley Stream and for example if I need to be at work at 10am, the LIRR can’t help me because there is an hour gap between 9:16am and 10:16am even though there are two services that serve Valley Stream (Long Beach and Far Rockaway). Most other times trains run roughly ever half hour. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

2 hours ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

It will be interesting to see how things play out when they add service when Grand Central opens up for the LIRR. 
 

There are definitely moments during the day where service on the LIRR is infrequent. I take the LIRR sometimes from Jamaica to Valley Stream and for example if I need to be at work at 10am, the LIRR can’t help me because there is an hour gap between 9:16am and 10:16am even though there are two services that serve Valley Stream (Long Beach and Far Rockaway). Most other times trains run roughly ever half hour. 

And how crowded are the trains at that time? Everyone is complaining about it, but no one is saying if the trains are crowded, empty or what. If there was adequate ridership then they would have to add a train so that there is service every half hour. I know for a fact that LIRR ridership is not what it was pre-pandemic. Yes SOME trains are packed and even standing room only. Others are not. That's what determines service levels in most cases. Ridership overall is still below what it was considerably. 

https://www.fox5ny.com/news/lirr-ridership-still-down

Edited November 4, 2022 by Via Garibaldi 8

[IAlam]

13 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

And how crowded are the trains at that time? Everyone is complaining about it, but no one is saying if the trains are crowded, empty or what. If there was adequate ridership then they would have to add a train so that there is service every half hour. I know for a fact that LIRR ridership is not what it was pre-pandemic. Yes SOME trains are packed and even standing room only. Others are not. That's what determines service levels in most cases. Ridership overall is still below what it was considerably. 

https://www.fox5ny.com/news/lirr-ridership-still-down

I still don't think that an excuse to be running service as inconsistent as they do, on my branch peak service is worse than off peak service with a 1 hour gap in the morning, those trains are way to crowded and there an almost 90 min gap in the off peak direction due to an express train that doesn't even go all the way. 

There's really no excuse to charge people a premium to stand on a train that's less frequent than what they get off peak, and don't even get me started on the main line. I've have 2 friends that got jobs in Long Island this year and the main line gap is so bad it's nearly impossible for them to get there in a timely fashion. It's either get there 2 hours early or make it there a couple min late. The first one already gave up and started driving, the second one is about to start is has a to connect to a NICE bus that leaves 3 min after the train arrives. If they miss that bus they're basically screwed. The second friend is also considering driving now because the new schedules are still too far away. If the MTA's service is so inconsistent during peak hours, I don't know how they expect people to rely on it. Once someone goes through the effort and to get a license and a car they're not turning back. Inconsistent service pretty much kills the demand in the first place or at the very least prevents growth. 

At least with the Metro North while not perfect is a lot more consistent with it's service. 

[checkmatechamp13]

On 11/3/2022 at 3:53 PM, Marco927 said:

A few weeks I was standing on the Manhattan-bound platform at Hickville trying to take a train to Manhattan at around 6 pm, on a weekday. For more than half an hour, every train arriving at Hickville were east-bound trains, even the trains arriving at the north track (Manhattan bound) were east-bound trains. 

I couldn't comprehend that all the trains were east-bound. I felt l had gotten into a twilight zone where trains only run in one direction. 

When I checked the newest LIRR train schedules, I found out that after the 5:29 train, the next train is at 6:35. That is a period of 1 hour and 6 minutes without any Manhattan-bound trains at Hickville. If you want to take a LIRR train to Manhattan around 6 pm to see a Broadway show, Knicks, or Rangers game, does it mean you have to plan for lack of city-bound trains around 6 pm?

I guess that is because both tracks were used by east-bound trains. Now that Third Track project is finished, when will LIRR add more Manhattan-bound trains around 6 pm? Why will east bound and west bound passengers begin to see the benefits of the third track?

December 2022 is when the new schedules take effect. I agree that they should've at least added a couple of reverse-peak trains (considering that they just released a new set of schedules September 6th).

On 11/3/2022 at 7:12 PM, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

1. I don't know why you would go to the station and just expect a train to show up. It's a railroad, not a subway.

2. Service was cut across the railroads because of lower ridership because of the pandemic. I experienced the same thing on my line with an even longer wait months ago, but that was going from Manhattan to Riverdale.  After complaining to Metro-North about the almost hour and 30 minute gap and my elected officials, they agreed to restore the train, along with other service, but not all service will come back because the ridership isn't there.

It's also a portion of the railroad that's supposed to be more frequent...the gap is due to a previous infrastructure constraint (which no longer exists, since the third track has been completed) of both tracks being used for peak direction service.

On 11/3/2022 at 8:14 PM, jaf0519 said:

Well, its the same in the morning too. An eastbound train arrives at Hicksville at 6:48 AM and then nothing until 8:25 AM. The Main Line does not have much room for reverse peak service during the height of rush hours due to there only being two tracks, at least until the third track and additional service to Grand Central starts likely at the end of the year.

Except the third track is already complete.

On 11/3/2022 at 10:07 PM, I love NY said:

Dear Marco, from next month, between 5:29pm and 6:38pm, there will be 7 trains...

https://new.mta.info/document/85026

That is this month's schedule, but yes once the Main Line is complete, there will be more trains during that timeframe (I count 5 out of Hicksville, which is a train every 12 minutes on average)

On 11/4/2022 at 7:39 AM, NewFlyer 230 said:

It will be interesting to see how things play out when they add service when Grand Central opens up for the LIRR. 

There are definitely moments during the day where service on the LIRR is infrequent. I take the LIRR sometimes from Jamaica to Valley Stream and for example if I need to be at work at 10am, the LIRR can’t help me because there is an hour gap between 9:16am and 10:16am even though there are two services that serve Valley Stream (Long Beach and Far Rockaway). Most other times trains run roughly ever half hour. 

Exactly. They should also try to space the trains evenly wherever possible (later in the day, there is more even spacing between the Far Rockaway and Long Beach Branch)

On 11/4/2022 at 9:41 AM, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

And how crowded are the trains at that time? Everyone is complaining about it, but no one is saying if the trains are crowded, empty or what. If there was adequate ridership then they would have to add a train so that there is service every half hour. I know for a fact that LIRR ridership is not what it was pre-pandemic. Yes SOME trains are packed and even standing room only. Others are not. That's what determines service levels in most cases. Ridership overall is still below what it was considerably. 

https://www.fox5ny.com/news/lirr-ridership-still-down

And are all those peak direction trains that they insist on running jam-packed either? Reverse-peak service often costs almost nothing to provide since the trains need to head back to the peak direction terminal to start another trip.

13 hours ago, IAlam said:

I still don't think that an excuse to be running service as inconsistent as they do, on my branch peak service is worse than off peak service with a 1 hour gap in the morning, those trains are way to crowded and there an almost 90 min gap in the off peak direction due to an express train that doesn't even go all the way. 

There's really no excuse to charge people a premium to stand on a train that's less frequent than what they get off peak, and don't even get me started on the main line. I've have 2 friends that got jobs in Long Island this year and the main line gap is so bad it's nearly impossible for them to get there in a timely fashion. It's either get there 2 hours early or make it there a couple min late. The first one already gave up and started driving, the second one is about to start is has a to connect to a NICE bus that leaves 3 min after the train arrives. If they miss that bus they're basically screwed. The second friend is also considering driving now because the new schedules are still too far away. If the MTA's service is so inconsistent during peak hours, I don't know how they expect people to rely on it. Once someone goes through the effort and to get a license and a car they're not turning back. Inconsistent service pretty much kills the demand in the first place or at the very least prevents growth. 

At least with the Metro North while not perfect is a lot more consistent with it's service. 

And this is why they should've at least added some reverse-peak service once the third track opened. They want to hide behind the excuse of "We want public review before the timetables go into effect" (and I wouldn't be surprised if the Port Washington Branch changes were the only giveback, when there were plenty of other comments regarding stopping patterns, diesel service, Brooklyn service, etc), but for something that is pretty much universally considered an improvement (and also relatively minor and probably doesn't trigger the percentage change in service to require a public hearing) they can just go ahead and do it. To my understanding, there are even reverse-peak deadheads (I believe there is a 7:22am that deadheads from Penn Station to Hicksville and I'm sure there's some corresponding PM reverse-peak trains as well). 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

20 hours ago, IAlam said:

I still don't think that an excuse to be running service as inconsistent as they do, on my branch peak service is worse than off peak service with a 1 hour gap in the morning, those trains are way to crowded and there an almost 90 min gap in the off peak direction due to an express train that doesn't even go all the way. 

There's really no excuse to charge people a premium to stand on a train that's less frequent than what they get off peak, and don't even get me started on the main line. I've have 2 friends that got jobs in Long Island this year and the main line gap is so bad it's nearly impossible for them to get there in a timely fashion. It's either get there 2 hours early or make it there a couple min late. The first one already gave up and started driving, the second one is about to start is has a to connect to a NICE bus that leaves 3 min after the train arrives. If they miss that bus they're basically screwed. The second friend is also considering driving now because the new schedules are still too far away. If the MTA's service is so inconsistent during peak hours, I don't know how they expect people to rely on it. Once someone goes through the effort and to get a license and a car they're not turning back. Inconsistent service pretty much kills the demand in the first place or at the very least prevents growth. 

At least with the Metro North while not perfect is a lot more consistent with it's service. 

Pre-COVID, I definitely had to stand on peak Metro-North trains from Riverdale until I finally decided to take a different peak train so I could get a seat.  It happens unfortunately. That said, while Metro-North restored most of the service, they did not restore all of it, particularly off-peak, because the ridership isn't there, so that means hourly service part of the day, and yes it sucks I agree, but I understand.  I had been traveling via Metro-North in some capacity during the entire pandemic, even though I was either work-from-home for over almost two years and then hybrid (now work-from-home permanently), so I've seen where the ridership was from the beginning and where it is now. It has gradually returned, and some trains are pretty crowded, but still not to the point that all service can be restored. 

Speaking with the  about service in general, they did not want to restore service immediately, not only because of budgetary concerns, but also because ridership patterns have changed.  Some people not only travel less now, but also travel at different times compared to before.  Using myself as an example, my use of public transit has declined dramatically since shifting back to work-from-home permanently with an office at home, etc.  I'm lucky now if use any mass transit maybe once or twice a week (mainly leisure trips into the City and at totally different times), and anything work related traveling to any of our other offices is maybe once or twice a month max.  That's compared to having a Metro-North monthly pass previously, taking the train several times a week.  There are quite a few white collar types like myself that take the railroad, which is a real chunk of the LIRR & MNRR ridership, so they also are trying to strategize and see what ridership looks like long-term in a post-pandemic environment.  It isn't clear yet in part because some employees have returned full-time to the office. Some have and then went back to work-from-home and some have some sort of hybrid schedule, so you have a chunk of those people who are also not using mass transit or barely using it like myself and getting around by car.  I believe I posted a chart before that shows the 's funding sources.  Almost 40% of it comes from fares, so with ridership at maybe 60% on the railroads, that's a big chunk of revenue that has to be generated from somewhere, and they've burned through a chunk of the funds they received from the Feds to actually keep running service. 

In any even, it's fine to post here, but this forum is not going to resolve the issue.  Anyone complaining about a lack of service on the LIRR should be contacting the directly and asking for more service to be restored AND contacting their elected officials to write to the , which is exactly what myself and other residents I know in my area did, and we did so repeatedly (people think that complaining one time resolves the issue - it doesn't; it takes persistence, and even then sometimes the goal isn't achieved, but the  is going to argue that they are facing a fiscal cliff of uncertainty, which is true), noting the large gap in service (it was almost an hour and forty minutes between trains in some cases) and how it impacted people being able to commute.  Some of the trains that come to mind in my area are the ones that terminate at Greystone.  Those tend to carry a large number of Riverdale residents, which makes up the large majority of the ridership on those trains. 

The LIRR is also under new leadership and I must say that Catherine Rinaldi has done a good job with MNRR and she should do a good job in her Interim role with the LIRR taking over for Phillip Eng, but the LIRR is a completely different railroad and sometimes runs things in a way that doesn't seem logical to a number of commuters, so we will see. That's my two cents.