Red & Tan routes

[SouthJerseyMan]

Since Covid-19, CoachUSA made major cutbacks on the old Red & Tan routes in the Englewood and Closter area. Route 20 is just a few rush hour runs M-F while Route 14 appears to be history. Route 84 went to "Ameribus" (Saddle River Tours), but this route has been gone for many years. Does anyone want to speculate about the future of these routes? Or have there been any complaints or rumblings about the lack of bus service in the area? Route 20 was hourly service before Covid-19 while Route 14 was only rush hour runs to the PABT. Maybe NJT will step in for these routes? Thanks.

[Lawrence St]

We’re these routes heavily utilized? How was the ridership.

[SouthJerseyMan]

These routes had decent ridership (Routes 20 and 14) at least until 2015. I rode both routes regularly then. I just wonder if CoachUSA will ever reinstate the pre-Covid schedules, or otherwise pull out completely for these routes.

[Lawrence St]

26 minutes ago, SouthJerseyMan said:

These routes had decent ridership (Routes 20 and 14) at least until 2015. I rode both routes regularly then. I just wonder if CoachUSA will ever reinstate the pre-Covid schedules, or otherwise pull out completely for these routes.

Is there a reason why ridership died down?

[SouthJerseyMan]

No particular reason, but really just the secular decline in bus ridership over a period of many years. 

[Mtatransit]

I believe alot of the routes were commuter routes. These routes were heavily impacted by the pandemic. 

For a private operator, they simply can not afford to bring back service when there is no riders, and riders simply can not ride if there is no service. 

 

Up to the government ultimately if they see a value in bring these service back. Coach USA's suburban transit division is also a shell of its former self, with Rt 100 running every 2 hours

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

A lot of them were commuter routes yes, however routes the 9A, 11A, and 20 offered daily service between NYC, Bergen County, and Rockland County. They even had an 11X bus as a test (effectively more or less a 45 short-turn) on weekends from Spring Valley, which was made permanent shortly before the pandemic. However ever since COVID, off peak service has not come back, which is a shame. 

If they start up off peak service and maybe take the time to reconfigure their routes to make them more efficient, I think they'll be okay more or less. However with the few trips as is, it's not going to attract many new riders, and the existing riders will stop using the buses at some point. Also not everything's geared to a 9-5 lifestyle like it used to, so they will have to readjust their model. If they don't they're eventually going to eventually meet their demise. 

I think there's ridership there (at least the ridership to/from NYC), however I don't think Rockland Coaches wants to roll the dice and start back up again.  Same thing with Academy and their lack of weekend and evening service. They've been cutting service before the pandemic in pieces, looks like COVID gave them enough of a justification to not bother running any service on evenings and weekends. 

I don't know how intermediate ridership levels on the 9A, 11A, or 20 were, however I don't get the sense that they were that high. However I do think there's potential to have weekend routes for those headed to/from NYC (and also offer local service in the process).

 

Edited November 27, 2022 by BM5 via Woodhaven

[B35 via Church]

Not exactly under the same circumstances, but the decline of route 20 is somewhat similar to the decline of Bee Line's BxMC4....  It was my "go to" route on Saturdays to get to/from a] Rockland County in general, and b] Palisades Mall (and Nanuet Mall, before that became a dead mall, before they re-built it to The Shoppes at Nanuet or whatever).... I will admit, its usage to/from either mall started severely waning on Saturdays well before covid or whatever.... NB usage (well, dropoffs) would tend to noticeably wane around that Demarest/Closter area... Early to mid 2010's sounds about right....

It went from being a 7 day a week route, to being a peak hour weekday route...

The one thing I found interesting was that, of the old Red & Tan routes that ran along portions of current NJT routes, there was seldom any interchangeability going on... You either had the riders that was anti-NJT or anti Red&Tan (for whatever their reasons).....

15 minutes ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

Nowadays not everything's geared to a 9-5 lifestyle like it used to, so they will have to readjust their model. 

That's a sentiment that's being increasingly espoused, and I mean I get it & all - At the same time though, the fact of the matter is that transit providers are far too hesitant to start veering away from largely catering to/focusing on commuters commuting during the traditional peak hours....

[checkmatechamp13]

3 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

The one thing I found interesting was that, of the old Red & Tan routes that ran along portions of current NJT routes, there was seldom any interchangeability going on... You either had the riders that was anti-NJT or anti Red&Tan (for whatever their reasons).....

I think a good part of it has to do with the fact that (to my knowledge) there's no cross-honoring, so if you have a pass or ticket for one, you can't use it on the other service. For a lot of these services (Lakeland, DeCamp, Red & Tan, Coach USA Suburban, etc) it would be nice if NJT took them over (maybe even contracting with them to provide the service, but at least integrating the fares)

Edited November 27, 2022 by checkmatechamp13

[Mtatransit]

8 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

That's a sentiment that's being increasingly espoused, and I mean I get it & all - At the same time though, the fact of the matter is that transit providers are far too hesitant to start veering away from largely catering to/focusing on commuters commuting during the traditional peak hours....

I have a feeling that the reason for this is commuters (at least they used to be) predictable demand. They know there will be people riding the buses during the peak hours versus trying to rebuild the market for off peak, where travel is much more spread out. This is especially hard to do for private operators because they rely solely on the farebox, and the ridership will most likely takes months if not years to be back to what they were in 2019

For government agencies, like NJT and MTA, I wonder if they provide way too much service in the peak periods. Ridership is not back to 2019 level yet, yet they both period 2019 level of peak service instead of beefing up off peak service

[Mtatransit]

4 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

I think a good part of it has to do with the fact that (to my knowledge) there's no cross-honoring, so if you have a pass or ticket for one, you can't use it on the other service. For a lot of these services (Lakeland, DeCamp, Red & Tan, Coach USA Suburban, etc) it would be nice if NJT took them over (maybe even contracting with them to provide the service, but at least integrating the fares)

It would be good if NJT just start subsidizing them. There are some Central Jersey (I'm thinking Academy routes that even pre pandemic, deserves more than peak only service. Instead, it is assumed and still is, that everyone drives to Rt 9 for the 139

Private operator can increase service, however they risk that it will not cover its operating cost for years. On the hand, passengers can not utilize the service if its not there, and overtime, those passenger will seek alternative options

Edited November 27, 2022 by Mtatransit

[Lawrence St]

Since when does Harrington Park have a RR Station? I'm looking at the 14 schedule.

[B35 via Church]

12 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

I think a good part of it has to do with the fact that (to my knowledge) there's no cross-honoring, so if you have a pass or ticket for one, you can't use it on the other service...

While true, I don't think that has as much to do with it... On the NJ end due inbound, I used to see people bypass NJT's for R&T's (and vice versa) back when I used to ride those R&T routes, and back then, I was completely clueless as to why... But yeah, on weekends, the vast majority of these people (like myself) would be paying cash (so much so that it took me a while back then to realize that R&T even offered tickets)....

To a much smaller extent, what I'm getting at here used to exist in NYC with the PBL routes also....To sum it up, you have some people that simply don't care (a bus is a bus), you have people that vilify the big guy (which in this case would be NJT) & put their full support in the little guy (hence, the "support small business" sentiment/mindset you hear, when it comes to the big box stores vs. the local stores in the neighborhood), and you have the people that see the little guy as not as reliable/stable as the big guy, so they roll with the sure thing, whether real or perceived.... That's what I'm speaking to.

8 hours ago, Mtatransit said:

I have a feeling that the reason for this is commuters (at least they used to be) predictable demand. They know there will be people riding the buses during the peak hours versus trying to rebuild the market for off peak, where travel is much more spread out. This is especially hard to do for private operators because they rely solely on the farebox, and the ridership will most likely takes months if not years to be back to what they were in 2019

For government agencies, like NJT and MTA, I wonder if they provide way too much service in the peak periods. Ridership is not back to 2019 level yet, yet they both ((provide)) 2019 level of peak service instead of beefing up off peak service

Oh, that's obvious.... It's easier to address something that's more predictable than it is to address something that's more variable... To be frank, that's why I've grown sick & tired of microtransit being propped up 1] as this panacea, and 2] to being something more than what it is....

To your other point (specifically with the MTA), I've always thought this, even before covid.... Off peak patronage isn't being made all that conducive on a decent chunk of routes.... That isn't to say that there should be a perfect (as in equal) or near perfect balance on every route, but when it comes to peak vs. off peak service, there's too much of a discrepancy on some routes more than others....

12 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

....For a lot of these services (Lakeland, DeCamp, Red & Tan, Coach USA Suburban, etc) it would be nice if NJT took them over (maybe even contracting with them to provide the service, but at least integrating the fares)

8 hours ago, Mtatransit said:

It would be good if NJT just start subsidizing them. There are some Central Jersey (I'm thinking Academy routes that even pre pandemic, deserves more than peak only service. Instead, it is assumed and still is, that everyone drives to Rt 9 for the 139

Private operator can increase service, however they risk that it will not cover its operating cost for years. On the hand, passengers can not utilize the service if its not there, and overtime, those passenger will seek alternative options

To be frank, I would just like to see more of a cohesive & an expansive network in Central Jersey.

25 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

Since when does Harrington Park have a RR Station? I'm looking at the 14 schedule.

It used to have one.... It doesn't anymore.

Where the #167/177 terminates at in Harrington Park, is where the old RR station used to be.... The (now) Harrington Park police bldg.

Edited November 27, 2022 by B35 via Church

[46Dover]

January, the MCI routes from Market Street are coming to Wayne.  I look to be dropped a few spots down.  Should be interesting to see how everything plays out.  Maybe I get to learn some of Market’s routes 🤷🏽‍♂️

[njbus86]

I believe the 9/9T and 20 lines were pretty busy even off-peak before the pandemic including weekends.  The 11C was still busy at rush-hours when Rockland abandoned it, but SRT killed what was left of it.  There is a huge void in Northeastern NJ bus service without the full time current and former Rockland services (e.g. 11C, 84).   NJT should really step in and at least adjust some of its routes to cover some of this territory, although it won't as long as Rockland/R&T is still technically "operating" the routes.  They could easily run some 167Q New Milford service over the former 11C route through Teaneck, Bergenfield and to New Milford instead of having it loop back to Teaneck Rd and then going to Madison Ave to get to New Milford.  They could also adjust some 166 service to cover some of the old 84 route at least through Englewood and Tenafly.  

[Lawrence St]

1 hour ago, njbus86 said:

I believe the 9/9T and 20 lines were pretty busy even off-peak before the pandemic including weekends.  The 11C was still busy at rush-hours when Rockland abandoned it, but SRT killed what was left of it.  There is a huge void in Northeastern NJ bus service without the full time current and former Rockland services (e.g. 11C, 84).   NJT should really step in and at least adjust some of its routes to cover some of this territory, although it won't as long as Rockland/R&T is still technically "operating" the routes.  They could easily run some 167Q New Milford service over the former 11C route through Teaneck, Bergenfield and to New Milford instead of having it loop back to Teaneck Rd and then going to Madison Ave to get to New Milford.  They could also adjust some 166 service to cover some of the old 84 route at least through Englewood and Tenafly.  

I live in Teaneck now and there was a bus company advocate going around and asking if people want bus service returned in those areas, so there is someone out there trying to restore service but I'm guessing its a lot of red tape / uncertainty with ridership since COVID.

[SouthJerseyMan]

Thank you for all your responses! We have had an interesting discussion. I just see that Rt-14 has become history as had Rt-84 several years ago. Rt-20 had decent ridership throughout the day and evening, both M-F and on weekends. Now Rt-20 is "rush hour only" (M-F), and I do not foresee any change in this current schedule.

 

[njbus86]

Was NJT the advocate asking about restoring service in Teaneck?  Was it to the Windsor Rd area of Teaneck?  

As for the 14, it still says the service is "temporarily suspended" on the CUSA website.  Same for the 21.  Although at this point, I would assume they arent going to restore those routes and if they do, who knows if there will be anyone to use them?

[Lawrence St]

14 minutes ago, njbus86 said:

Was NJT the advocate asking about restoring service in Teaneck?  Was it to the Windsor Rd area of Teaneck?  

As for the 14, it still says the service is "temporarily suspended" on the CUSA website.  Same for the 21.  Although at this point, I would assume they arent going to restore those routes and if they do, who knows if there will be anyone to use them?

Nope, another private company. It wasn't NJT or Saddle River, but the patch I saw on the person the last few letters said T BUS.

[Gotham Bus Co.]

On 11/27/2022 at 3:51 AM, Mtatransit said:

It would be good if NJT just start subsidizing them.

Doesn't NJT already subsidize those companies by giving them free buses?

[Mtatransit]

On 12/3/2022 at 5:10 PM, Gotham Bus Co. said:

Doesn't NJT already subsidize those companies by giving them free buses?

They do get free buses, but they get no help with operating cost. 

Private operators will not operate a service especially during off peak hours where ridership is more spread out and more variable if they are going to lose significant amount of money on each trip. 

[imagineverything]

Also in Teaneck - the 11A has been a tremendous loss for direct midtown service, especially off peak. 
 

The jitney has pretty much taken its place, with frequent service to the GWB. 
 

from 9am onwards, the 11A was the sole provider of turnpike service to PABT, which means local stops in Bergen county and then gets on the turnpike nearby and runs non stop to NY. 

Coach is playing tricks by saying temporary changes. It’s been three years and they’re now just two runs per day. 
 

I’d say that they should just give up the Route. It’s not even an efficient Routing and likely only remains to “claim” the territory. 
 

 

[MNR Beacon Line]

7 hours ago, imagineverything said:

Also in Teaneck - the 11A has been a tremendous loss for direct midtown service, especially off peak. 
 

The jitney has pretty much taken its place, with frequent service to the GWB. 
 

from 9am onwards, the 11A was the sole provider of turnpike service to PABT, which means local stops in Bergen county and then gets on the turnpike nearby and runs non stop to NY. 

Coach is playing tricks by saying temporary changes. It’s been three years and they’re now just two runs per day. 
 

I’d say that they should just give up the Route. It’s not even an efficient Routing and likely only remains to “claim” the territory. 
 

 

Is it really still the case that when a private operator has a route NJ Transit is not allowed to compete? That's ridiculous.

[imagineverything]

apparently engaging in “destructive competition” is still against the law for New Jersey transit

Edited March 8, 2023 by imagineverything

[njbus86]

For the most part NJT won't go in where Rockland still "operates."  The 165 Rt 4 service is an exception, and is part of the reason for the demise of the 11A at least as far as Westwood.  The Pascack Valley increased service off peak and weekends as well as Covid pretty much did the rest of the damage.

I recently inquired about NJT running some service over the former 11c territory through Teaneck, bergenfield and New Milford.  NJT's response was that they had to confirm Rockland was no longer operating the route!   They were clueless that Rockland abandoned it several years ago, had no idea Saddle River had taken it over and had since gone  out of business!