Getting the wrong call or pressing the wrong punch.

[Blitzer120]

Im curious to know, what actions would happen if the train conductors chose the wrong punch. I saw something similar on Reddit, but I lost the post. For example, if you're operating the C train, but you forgot to punch in after Lafayette to go on the express tracks and end up stopping at the wrong platform, what would be the proper protocol for such a action, also how rare is it to see a wrong punch?

[Trainmaster5]

21 minutes ago, Blitzer120 said:

Im curious to know, what actions would happen if the train conductors chose the wrong punch. I saw something similar on Reddit, but I lost the post. For example, if you're operating the C train, but you forgot to punch in after Lafayette to go on the express tracks and end up stopping at the wrong platform, what would be the proper protocol for such a action, also how rare is it to see a wrong punch?

Let's clear this up quickly. The Train Operator initiates the punch and route selection not the Conductor. If I'm understanding your question correctly a northbound  train leaving Lafayette Avenue only has one option and that's crossing over to the express track to enter Hoyt-Schermerhorn. Although I'm an IRT man I can assure you that any n/b train leaving Lafayette Avenue will make that move. The switch is probably blocked and clamped to block any moves into the n/b local track  on the path to the Transit Museum. Hope I didn't miss anything.  Carry on

[Blitzer120]

24 minutes ago, Trainmaster5 said:

Let's clear this up quickly. The Train Operator initiates the punch and route selection not the Conductor. If I'm understanding your question correctly a northbound  train leaving Lafayette Avenue only has one option and that's crossing over to the express track to enter Hoyt-Schermerhorn. Although I'm an IRT man I can assure you that any n/b train leaving Lafayette Avenue will make that move. The switch is probably blocked and clamped to block any moves into the n/b local track  on the path to the Transit Museum. Hope I didn't miss anything.  Carry on

Thanks for clearing that up. Im still trying to find that post on Reddit. But in general, what happens if the operator does a wrong punch?

[Trainmaster5]

26 minutes ago, Blitzer120 said:

Thanks for clearing that up. Im still trying to find that post on Reddit. But in general, what happens if the operator does a wrong punch?

I’ve been retired for over a decade now but I think it depends on the location in the system. In my case ( IRT)  we had a system called ATS that would supposedly give the Train Operator a lineup instead of the local tower operators. I found that the system frequently misidentified my train and I had to call the local supervisor to get a correct lineup. If I took the wrong lineup I , alone, be responsible for the error. I’m assuming the same thing applies in the other division. The Train Operator is ultimately responsible for the route acceptance. I’m of the opinion that there’s too much over reliance on the tech factor in many cases. I used to see and acknowledge personnel from the Bronx down to my last transfer point in Brooklyn only to find that the automated system was misidentifying me all the way. Luckily for me the dispatchers and tower operators and the RCC knew my name and voice and they would give me the correct lineup. As far as someone punching for an incorrect lineup no matter where they are there’s supposed to be someone who would challenge the punch BEFORE the incorrect lineup is given. It’s a tricky situation where (usually) new Train Operators are too reliant on the tech and there’s no on scene correction available. This is the opinion of many old timers who came up in my era. Carry on.

[Kamen Rider]

A2 track has been OSS for well over a decade for museum reasons between the switch south of Hoyt and the switch south of Court. 

 

As for B division punches, not all punches are created equal. some are route requestors; others are to tell the tower who you are. 

[darkstar8983]

On 11/18/2023 at 11:40 PM, Kamen Rider said:

A2 track has been OSS for well over a decade for museum reasons between the switch south of Hoyt and the switch south of Court. 

 

As for B division punches, not all punches are created equal. some are route requestors; others are to tell the tower who you are. 

I know that at Rockefeller Center there are big signs that say "what you punch is what you get", indicating that you as the operator have to know where you're going. (automatic tower)

[Kamen Rider]

Admittedly that sign was put there before we consolidated the IND in midtown to 34 Master.

[IAlam]

22 hours ago, darkstar8983 said:

I know that at Rockefeller Center there are big signs that say "what you punch is what you get", indicating that you as the operator have to know where you're going. (automatic tower)

I remember seeing signs like this all over the IND.

In a lot of cases though punching the wrong route probably isn’t the end of the world. The IND has a lot of redundancy. Ie. an  train that accidentally punches for 6th Ave will be able to rejoin at W4, same thing if an  accidentally goes to 8th Ave. You definitely will piss off a lot of passengers and the dispatchers though.

[Kamen Rider]

On 11/21/2023 at 11:11 AM, IAlam said:

In a lot of cases though punching the wrong route probably isn’t the end of the world. 

Tell that to the E crew who took a train full of passengers into the Continental Relay last week because they weren’t paying attention…

under normal circumstances, taking the wrong lineup, of which punching wrong is a subset of, the conductor is required to pull the cord at the next station as per rule. You punch for 8th when you’re supposed to be going down 6th, that’s a CHOW! the moment you get to spring street and stop. 

 

the only exception is taking a local lineup when you’re supposed to be on the express. Express on the local is express unless told otherwise. I personally prefer to be told directly ether way, but that’s just me…

[Blitzer120]

1 hour ago, Kamen Rider said:

Tell that to the E crew who took a train full of passengers into the Continental Relay last week because they weren’t paying attention…

under normal circumstances, taking the wrong lineup, of which punching wrong is a subset of, the conductor is required to pull the cord at the next station as per rule. You punch for 8th when you’re supposed to be going down 6th, that’s a CHOW! the moment you get to spring street and stop. 

 

the only exception is taking a local lineup when you’re supposed to be on the express. Express on the local is express unless told otherwise. I personally prefer to be told directly ether way, but that’s just me…

Oh dear...Im guessing there was some sort of suspension for that...I hope. Sounds like a major mess up. Whats a "CHOW"?

[Kamen Rider]

On 11/23/2023 at 7:22 AM, Blitzer120 said:

Whats a "CHOW"?

Onomatopoeia of the emergency brakes being activated. 

[IAlam]

On 11/23/2023 at 6:04 AM, Kamen Rider said:

Tell that to the E crew who took a train full of passengers into the Continental Relay last week because they weren’t paying attention…

under normal circumstances, taking the wrong lineup, of which punching wrong is a subset of, the conductor is required to pull the cord at the next station as per rule. You punch for 8th when you’re supposed to be going down 6th, that’s a CHOW! the moment you get to spring street and stop. 

 

the only exception is taking a local lineup when you’re supposed to be on the express. Express on the local is express unless told otherwise. I personally prefer to be told directly ether way, but that’s just me…

So, what does the crew do next if they end up at the wrong station and the E-brake has to get pulled?

[RTOMan]

5 hours ago, IAlam said:

So, what does the crew do next if they end up at the wrong station and the E-brake has to get pulled?

Depends Procedures are different..

Sometimes they discharge sometimes they dont..

If its something like CTL then yeah after the yard tour and back up on D1 track train is discharged...

T/O goes downtown..

The C/R in most cases if they follow procedure and pull the cord they good..

Edited November 26, 2023 by RTOMan

[Kamen Rider]

1 hour ago, RTOMan said:

If its something like CTL then yeah after the yard tour and back up on D1 track train is discharged...

 

Did some checking, they seemed to have stopped partway down the ramp. Train was discharged while still partly in the station and was then reversed back fully into the station on D2, then sent to lite to Parsons with a “call me when you get there” message.

[NoHacksJustKhaks]

I've always wondered this question myself. From a passengers perspective, I was amazed when one time my  got diverted down Fulton local to Hoyt, then it went on the  all the way up to West 4th, run local on the  track until 59th, before finally rejoining the express track at 59th. I mean I know that's because there's no track to W4 Fulton express from the   at Bway-Lafayette, but still, I was wondering the whole time if this train was gonna make a wrong move somewhere.

I also sometimes wonder this when the  passes Broad Channel NB. There's gotta be some system preventing NB  's from getting sent down the relay tracks. as that scenario happening would presumably be hell on earth for the operators (and certainly the conductor/passengers also) 

[RTOMan]

45 minutes ago, Kamen Rider said:

Did some checking, they seemed to have stopped partway down the ramp. Train was discharged while still partly in the station and was then reversed back fully into the station on D2, then sent to lite to Parsons with a “call me when you get there” message.

That's better then.. Yet..

That "Yard Tour" did happen before ...

I know the T/O who got caught up in that he fessed up took his days the TWO went down too because they was told a  was coming on D2 and they had the Relay Fleeted in...

[RTOMan]

14 minutes ago, NoHacksJustKhaks said:

I've always wondered this question myself. From a passengers perspective, I was amazed when one time my  got diverted down Fulton local to Hoyt, then it went on the  all the way up to West 4th, run local on the  track until 59th, before finally rejoining the express track at 59th. I mean I know that's because there's no track to W4 Fulton express from the   at Bway-Lafayette, but still, I was wondering the whole time if this train was gonna make a wrong move somewhere.

I also sometimes wonder this when the  passes Broad Channel NB. There's gotta be some system preventing NB  's from getting sent down the relay tracks. as that scenario happening would presumably be hell on earth for the operators (and certainly the conductor/passengers also) 

That's a Normal move there are switches at Jay and just south of west fourth on B2 trk for A2 trk upstairs on 8th ave..

[Kamen Rider]

4 hours ago, RTOMan said:

That's better then.. Yet..

That "Yard Tour" did happen before ...

I know the T/O who got caught up in that he fessed up took his days the TWO went down too because they was told a  was coming on D2 and they had the Relay Fleeted in...

I think I remember it making the news about someone taking the wrong lineup at Briarwood and ending up on D9 with passengers…

[RTOMan]

17 hours ago, Kamen Rider said:

I think I remember it making the news about someone taking the wrong lineup at Briarwood and ending up on D9 with passengers…

It has happened a few times....

[Chris89292]

can anyone just press the switch button, for example switching a local to express  at willets point, is it possible??? Or do train operators use a special tool for it?

[danielhg121]

1 hour ago, Chris89292 said:

can anyone just press the switch button, for example switching a local to express  at willets point, is it possible??? Or do train operators use a special tool for it?

I would imagine that the track circuit has to be shunted aka a train sitting on the rail.

[Kamen Rider]

If someone were to tamper with it, punching something they shouldn’t, there is a cancel button.

Flushing line is CBTC territory. Whole different set of rules.

[RTOMan]

13 hours ago, Kamen Rider said:

If someone were to tamper with it, punching something they shouldn’t, there is a cancel button.

Flushing line is CBTC territory. Whole different set of rules.

CBTC is a whole different thing indeed...

[Snowblock]

On 11/20/2023 at 7:08 PM, Kamen Rider said:

Admittedly that sign was put there before we consolidated the IND in midtown to 34 Master.

When was this? Last I knew, Rockefeller interlocking was still controlled from Rockefeller Tower (and hasn't been on automatic mode since the long term GO on 63rd St started). 34 Master Tower has no control whatsoever of that area.

 

You'd be amazed how many workers (all the way up to desk superintendents) think that 34 Master also controls Broadway Lafayette and 2nd Ave interlockings as well....

Edited December 4, 2023 by Snowblock
2nd paragraph added

[RTOMan]

10 hours ago, Snowblock said:

When was this? Last I knew, Rockefeller interlocking was still controlled from Rockefeller Tower (and hasn't been on automatic mode since the long term GO on 63rd St started). 34 Master Tower has no control whatsoever of that area.

 

You'd be amazed how many workers (all the way up to desk superintendents) think that 34 Master also controls Broadway Lafayette and 2nd Ave interlockings as well....

That's because Essex never answers the radio at Bway Laff only 34th Tower seems to hear us...

Edited December 4, 2023 by RTOMan