Southern Queens Extension/s?

[Tbirdbassist]

Hi, this is my first post (I'll do the introductory soon). Sorry if this has been discussed before but I searched and found nothing.

 

 

I wanted to do a little talking about the once planned (maybe in the future they will go through with it????) extensions into Southern Queens via the E @ Parsons & Archer-Jamaica Center.

 

 

If you've been to this station, you'll know that the lower level J tracks continue on a train length and end at a wall with a bumper block.

 

However the E train tracks upstairs curve right (south/south east) and run under 160th St toward Liberty Ave.

 

I can't tell if the tracks continue down 160th or if they curve left under Liberty Avenue but since 160th st isn't very wide and all residential there would be no subway beneath. There are vents on the sidewalk all the way to Liberty but but there are no others in the area so I can safely assume they (the tracks/tunnel) stop around or about there.

 

 

Does anyone know what the MTA's plans were for the Archer Avenue Extension?

 

 

The most logical route to me would be for it to continue under Liberty Avenue and then Curve right again and run under Merrick Blvd until a terminal perhaps at Francis Lewis Blvd. However a terminal there seems out of place so I think an even more logical way is for it to turn off Merrick Blvd and run south beneath the Belt Parkway and then turn east onto the Sunrise Highway and terminal at the Green Acres Mall.

 

If the MTA were to actually go through with this (highly unlikely anytime soon ) it would probably only be a two track line for the 6-7ish miles of the extension.

 

However, I think a local/express service would be better (more like I think it would be cooler). This would have them continue the lower level of Jamaica Center so that the J train tracks can meet up with the E trackage once under Merrick Blvd (this would be good in case of service interruptions, we all know Qns Blvd when it rains heavy) but would also depend on what rolling stock is being used on the E due to the BMT restrictions). It would then run as a 4 track line to the Green Acres Mall terminal. I really don't think there's a enough room for 4 tracks side to side so it would probably have to be a 2 level set up.

 

The stations toward the mall would be something like...

 

 

Jamaica Center - .

Liberty Avenue/Merrick Blvd - .

Linden Blvd - .

Baisley Blvd/Rochdale Village - .

Springfield Blvd - (Transfer to a Springfield Blvd line?)

Francis Lewis Blvd -

Sunrise Hwy/Brookville Blvd -

Green Acres Mall/S. Central Ave.

 

 

 

If this were to be built it would definitely help a ton with the overcrowded buses here in Jamaica. Not to mention speed up a lot of peoples commutes. Queens population isn't getting any smaller and this area is becoming even more diverse due to York College it still being cheaper than most of the rest of the city.

 

 

Idunno, I have big dreams. I'll draw some track maps in for peopel to get a better idea if I didn't do so well at explaining.

 

 

Tell me what you guys think should happen or if you know what the original plan for the Archer Avenue Extension was.

 

 

I like this place, lots of info. Dunno why I didn't find it until last week.

[UlmerPark B6]

Hi, this is my first post (I'll do the introductory soon). Sorry if this has been discussed before but I searched and found nothing.

 

 

I wanted to do a little talking about the once planned (maybe in the future they will go through with it????) extensions into Southern Queens via the E @ Parsons & Archer-Jamaica Center.

 

 

If you've been to this station, you'll know that the lower level J tracks continue on a train length and end at a wall with a bumper block.

 

However the E train tracks upstairs curve right (south/south east) and run under 160th St toward Liberty Ave.

 

I can't tell if the tracks continue down 160th or if they curve left under Liberty Avenue but since 160th st isn't very wide and all residential there would be no subway beneath. There are vents on the sidewalk all the way to Liberty but but there are no others in the area so I can safely assume they (the tracks/tunnel) stop around or about there.

 

 

Does anyone know what the MTA's plans were for the Archer Avenue Extension?

 

 

The most logical route to me would be for it to continue under Liberty Avenue and then Curve right again and run under Merrick Blvd until a terminal perhaps at Francis Lewis Blvd. However a terminal there seems out of place so I think an even more logical way is for it to turn off Merrick Blvd and run south beneath the Belt Parkway and then turn east onto the Sunrise Highway and terminal at the Green Acres Mall.

 

If the MTA were to actually go through with this (highly unlikely anytime soon ) it would probably only be a two track line for the 6-7ish miles of the extension.

 

However, I think a local/express service would be better (more like I think it would be cooler). This would have them continue the lower level of Jamaica Center so that the J train tracks can meet up with the E trackage once under Merrick Blvd (this would be good in case of service interruptions, we all know Qns Blvd when it rains heavy) but would also depend on what rolling stock is being used on the E due to the BMT restrictions). It would then run as a 4 track line to the Green Acres Mall terminal. I really don't think there's a enough room for 4 tracks side to side so it would probably have to be a 2 level set up.

 

The stations toward the mall would be something like...

 

 

Jamaica Center - .

Liberty Avenue/Merrick Blvd - .

Linden Blvd - .

Baisley Blvd/Rochdale Village - .

Springfield Blvd - (Transfer to a Springfield Blvd line?)

Francis Lewis Blvd -

Sunrise Hwy/Brookville Blvd -

Green Acres Mall/S. Central Ave.

 

 

 

If this were to be built it would definitely help a ton with the overcrowded buses here in Jamaica. Not to mention speed up a lot of peoples commutes. Queens population isn't getting any smaller and this area is becoming even more diverse due to York College it still being cheaper than most of the rest of the city.

 

 

Idunno, I have big dreams. I'll draw some track maps in for peopel to get a better idea if I didn't do so well at explaining.

 

 

Tell me what you guys think should happen or if you know what the original plan for the Archer Avenue Extension was.

 

First and fourmost, Welcome to NYCTF! Go over to New Members Introduction and introduce yourself.

The plans was to have the extended by a mile or two to the LIRR line. That's what it says in Peter Doughtery's book.

[Tbirdbassist]

Thanks!

 

 

 

I've heard about that, but it didn't make sense to me since the J train tracks end pretty abruptly and the tracks continue on beneath 160th St. And since it wasn't originally intended to be a terminal it added to my curiosity. I was told by a worker there's room for two trains on both tracks on the upper level.

[R32 3348]

Welcome to the boards! IMO I think it's more efficient to have the lines serving different avenues to maximize space covered. Like the J cover Jamaica Ave., since after all, it's the Jamaica Ave. el.

[MTR Admiralty]

Welcome to NYCTF!

These are interesting plans, yes there are plans for the E and J/Z to go further past Jamaica Ctr. Since you described the vestige of the J extension to be on straight track, I would say that the J would most likely continue onwards to Queens Village LIRR Station. That is my guess.

As for the E, Green Acres does seem likely since you said, there are vestiges of a possible south-easterly route.

[Tbirdbassist]

Welcome to the boards! IMO I think it's more efficient to have the lines serving different avenues to maximize space covered. Like the J cover Jamaica Ave., since after all, it's the Jamaica Ave. el.

 

 

 

True, but you must keep in mind that the F train at 179th has the ability to be extended and with two levels and 8 tracks, there are possibilities that a couple lines could branch off from that, theoretically, covering the area of Queens Village as I assume any extension from the F line would head North via Francis Lewis and another going maybe as far as Glen Oaks or maybe even New Hyde Park The latter would kinda depend on how Nassau County folk feel since I do believe that's crossing borders. The branch going North from Hillside Ave should head up to Whitestone and join with/terminate there along with an extension of the Astoria line.

 

 

 

However the J line going to Queens Village would be good as it would warrant lines under Springfield/Francis Lewis Blvd going North and South. Because even with a Merrick Blvd line and one to Queens village a lot of Queens would still be uncovered.

 

 

The Astoria line extension would head east on Astoria Blvd until 111th St where it would split. One headed to College Point/Whitestone via the Whitestone Expwy to meet with the line from Francis Lewis and possibly cross into the Bronx for the first Queens-Bronx service. The other line would go down 111th St, make a connection with the at Roosevelt Ave and continue on to make a Eastern turn under the LIE and would continue down until a terminus at Bell/Springfield Blvd.

 

I also believe the Lefferts Blvd should be taken down and rerouted down Rockaway Blvd with a branch turning off to go down Linden Blvd instead or have the current line extended to make its way down Linden to a terminal in Cambria Heights? at the Linden/Francis Lewis/Springfield junction. Another route new route would have it continue down Rockaway, past JFK, possibly meet up with the Springfield Blvd line and continue on as another route to the Rockaways. Perhaps even have a track connection with the Mott avenue line if there was space to go elevated again.

 

The would get extended down Roosevelt Ave and then run under Northern Blvd and terminate in Bayside. Either at Northern and Bell or it could run a bit farther North under the Clearview Expwy until 26th Ave and have it terminate at the Bay Terrace shopping center at Bell Blvd.

 

 

 

 

 

I just realized I got a bit carried away and went through all the Queens lines I think should be added/extended. Sorry for the super long post... again. Although most of what I said would probably never ever happen (especially the elevated-to-tunnel bits in mainly residential areas with not so adequate space), but it's fun to think about.

 

One could only hope that these would happen and people wouldn't have to rely solely on the bus, which while is usually reliable, certainly isn't faster.

 

 

It however make me LOL really hard to see the looks on people faces as a T.B.M comes through the neighborhood on a flatbed.

[Eric B]

Now, the makes the turn southward, and I believes ends at 160th and South Rd. This is already two blocks past the brach that stops at Locust Manor and Laurelton. What exactly was the line supposed to do? swing west to capture that line? I had assumed since it was already past it that it would pick up the line that stops in St. Albans. That was before I worked down there and saw how the tunnel curves southward.

 

If it was supposed to go and pick up the line to Laurelton or Rosedale, then I wonder why they didn't just do that. Since you already have the infrastructure, it would be relatively cheap. Just building the connection and ramp. Then you would tap right into an area far removed from subways. Perhaps it was the issue of capacity, but most of the same people are still coming in; only on buses.

 

As for the ; they should at least extend it to Merrick, and combine both bus terminals (165, and the one currently at Parsons). 165 seems to have a closes lower level (the stairway is between one of the stands and the platform area, and has a window). They could build an underground concourse from there to the new station under Archer.

[KeystoneRegional]

Please, watch the Nazi Banksters Crimes Ripple Effect at http://jforjustice.co.uk/banksters

[MTR Admiralty]

 

It however make me LOL really hard to see the looks on people faces as a T.B.M comes through the neighborhood on a flatbed.

 

You would have an army of hopeless NIMBYs.

[Tbirdbassist]

Now, the makes the turn southward, and I believes ends at 160th and South Rd. This is already two blocks past the brach that stops at Locust Manor and Laurelton. What exactly was the line supposed to do? swing west to capture that line? I had assumed since it was already past it that it would pick up the line that stops in St. Albans. That was before I worked down there and saw how the tunnel curves southward.

 

If it was supposed to go and pick up the line to Laurelton or Rosedale, then I wonder why they didn't just do that. Since you already have the infrastructure, it would be relatively cheap. Just building the connection and ramp. Then you would tap right into an area far removed from subways. Perhaps it was the issue of capacity, but most of the same people are still coming in; only on buses.

 

As for the ; they should at least extend it to Merrick, and combine both bus terminals (165, and the one currently at Parsons). 165 seems to have a closes lower level (the stairway is between one of the stands and the platform area, and has a window). They could build an underground concourse from there to the new station under Archer.

 

 

 

 

I think you lost me here. You are talking about the LIRR branches now right?

 

And build a ramp up to the Locust Manor/Laurelton line? That would make a lot of people very unhappy. 160th st isn't wide enough to keep street traffic and have a subway coming out of the ground. Many, many families would have to relocate. They also would have to basically build tracks over the LIRR because that line is used too heavily to have a joint subway service on the same track.

 

Now that you say the tracks continue on to about South Rd where did they plan on taking it? The only route that makes sense to be right now is for it to continue down 160th st and run BENEATH the LIRR ROW and follow it until Springfield Blvd or so and then have it run under the Sunrise Highway to Green Acres Mall because honestly that seems to be the best place to have a terminal in this part of Queens. There's more than enough space for a station and storage yard because one would definitely be needed at that point.

 

None of the east/west Blvd's/Avenues/Streets in Jamaica, are wide enough for subway with the exception of Merrick Blvd, Rockaway Blvd and the Conduit/Sunrise Hwy. Unless everything were to be deep bore, stations included. There would have to be elevators that go directly to a mezzanine from the sidewalk, there simply isn't enough room for cut and cover stations.

 

There isn't enough room to go elevated either unless the MTA would be willing to shell out many millions just to get businesses and home owners to move.

 

 

I'm gonna start a new thread with all my thoughts + track maps on how all the Queens extensions should go if there were to be any. As I just remembered the bellmouths that are in between 21st-Queensbridge and 36th st which could be a whole line.

[Tbirdbassist]

You would have an army of hopeless NIMBYs.

 

Not In My Back Yard?

 

 

If so, yes, yes indeed.

[MTR Admiralty]

Not In My Back Yard?

 

 

If so, yes, yes indeed.

 

YES! YES!

Those NIMBYs. ><

[Eric B]

I think you lost me here. You are talking about the LIRR branches now right?

 

And build a ramp up to the Locust Manor/Laurelton line? That would make a lot of people very unhappy. 160th st isn't wide enough to keep street traffic and have a subway coming out of the ground. Many, many families would have to relocate. They also would have to basically build tracks over the LIRR because that line is used too heavily to have a joint subway service on the same track.

 

Now that you say the tracks continue on to about South Rd where did they plan on taking it? The only route that makes sense to be right now is for it to continue down 160th st and run BENEATH the LIRR ROW and follow it until Springfield Blvd or so and then have it run under the Sunrise Highway to Green Acres Mall because honestly that seems to be the best place to have a terminal in this part of Queens. There's more than enough space for a station and storage yard because one would definitely be needed at that point.

 

None of the east/west Blvd's/Avenues/Streets in Jamaica, are wide enough for subway with the exception of Merrick Blvd, Rockaway Blvd and the Conduit/Sunrise Hwy. Unless everything were to be deep bore, stations included. There would have to be elevators that go directly to a mezzanine from the sidewalk, there simply isn't enough room for cut and cover stations.

 

There isn't enough room to go elevated either unless the MTA would be willing to shell out many millions just to get businesses and home owners to move.

This is why I'm saying I don't know exactly what they were supposed to do. If the curved tunnel was already directly beneath the LIRR branch, then it would make sense. Now, it's two blocks east, and if they had to swing it over, that goes through a project development, and they don't usually tear down buildings like that for anything, though they are in other cities (realizing it was a mistake, in favor of smaller houses), and even one block of them in Brooklyn). However, if you continue on 160th, the line moves over and pretty much cuts it off after 111th Ave. So maybe that's what they planned to do. It would stay underground for five long blocks, and then ramp up to the line, where a new looking attached pair of houses sits. That would make much more sense than swinging over right away. And the portal would be after 160th st ends, and not interfere with it, and there is enough distance before the next cross street for the ramp.

 

So that would require a considerable distance of new subway, so perhaps that is one barrier to it.

 

As for sharing the line with the LIRR, while that may have been one idea; I think it was supposed to capture the line, and the LIRR service could be moved to the other branch (since they both come back together at Rosedale). To build under the line would be WAY too much work!

[Eric B]

I was going to start a new thread on this, but it pertains to this subject.

 

I was recently reminded about how at one point the city was going to annex all of Hempstead Township which was part of Queens County. That's almost all of Nassau as part of the Five Boroughs! I wonder what the subway would have been like then. Since many commuter lines within the boroughs had been captured by the subway, and considering that the entire Far Rockaway, Hempstead, West Hempstead, Long Beach, and Port Washington branches would have then been within the city (and most of the Oyster Bay branch); I imagine that they would have been captured by the subway!

 

Of course, we would definitely have needed more infrastructure west of Jamaica, so stuff like the Queens Bypass would have definitely been built, and perhaps the entire Atlantic Ave. and Montauk "city terminal" sections would have been converted as well. What we know as the would have gone from the Steinway tube to capture the entire Port Jefferson line. Between the two branches to Rosedale, one would have to remain LIRR to bring the Babylon branch in. The other would then carry the subways to both Long Beach and Far Rockaway. And since that line kept going and looped back towards the city; what would that have been like?

 

The next thing would be what buses would be like. I guess pretty much the same routes (minus the duplicate service in current Queens), but the network would be endless. That would have been quite a vast "borough"!

(You could just add 100 to all the Nassau routes except for 1-4 which would conflict with current Queens routes. They could become 105, 107, 109 and 118. So then, we would have up to Q193! Some routes would still be N, however, as they cross over. 80 and 81 for instance would still be entirely in what's left of Nassau or whatever county Oyster Bay would have become apart of.)

 

It would seem highly doubtful for these lines fully in the city to remain LIRR. Yet, they are pretty long for the subway as we know it. So perhaps they would have become different kinds of lines; like sort of cross between subways and commuter. Such hybrid lines are often discussed in the expansion plans, such as the Airtrain extension into the city taking over portions of the LIRR and/or subway. then, there is the route designation system (letters, numbers), but of course, that was not even being thought of when the decision was made to not include Hempstead.

 

So what we now call "eastern Queens" would have been covered; but then so would much of the extended borough as well! We'd now be discussing how to extend the subway to the "eastern Queens" neighborhoods of Wantaugh, Levittown and Westbury!

[Tbirdbassist]

This is why I'm saying I don't know exactly what they were supposed to do. If the curved tunnel was already directly beneath the LIRR branch, then it would make sense. Now, it's two blocks east, and if they had to swing it over, that goes through a project development, and they don't usually tear down buildings like that for anything, though they are in other cities (realizing it was a mistake, in favor of smaller houses), and even one block of them in Brooklyn). However, if you continue on 160th, the line moves over and pretty much cuts it off after 111th Ave. So maybe that's what they planned to do. It would stay underground for five long blocks, and then ramp up to the line, where a new looking attached pair of houses sits. That would make much more sense than swinging over right away. And the portal would be after 160th st ends, and not interfere with it, and there is enough distance before the next cross street for the ramp.

 

So that would require a considerable distance of new subway, so perhaps that is one barrier to it.

 

As for sharing the line with the LIRR, while that may have been one idea; I think it was supposed to capture the line, and the LIRR service could be moved to the other branch (since they both come back together at Rosedale). To build under the line would be WAY too much work!

 

 

 

Ah, I see!

 

 

I went to google and didn't bother to do a street view of the area at first. Now that I look there's definitely enough room for a ramp up to the LIRR. I think those newish attached houses would still have to be removed... but I tihnk that's something that could be budgeted in.

 

Those houses were definitely built in the early-mid 90's going by the look they have and that whole block was a empty lot for a good while so I can see how the MTA would have planned it now.

 

 

Perhaps there's still a slight chance of hope for the subway to continue on then, if money weren't an issue. I think that the Laurelton station is a bit out of place and would be better off moved back to be centered between Springfield and and 225th st, then there could be 3 exits. Two at the aforementioned and a third at 222nd st.

 

There also definitely would have to be at least two-three new stations before Locust Manor/Farmers Blvd. Ideally...

 

 

108-109th Ave (via 160th St)

Linden-Guy R Brewer Blvd (via LIRR)

Baisley Blvd-120th Ave (Via LIRR)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And that's some great info about Nassau County/Hempstead! The system would be even more ginormous than it already is.

[MTR Admiralty]

I was going to start a new thread on this, but it pertains to this subject.

 

I was recently reminded about how at one point the city was going to annex all of Hempstead Township which was part of Queens County. That's almost all of Nassau as part of the Five Boroughs! I wonder what the subway would have been like then. Since many commuter lines within the boroughs had been captured by the subway, and considering that the entire Far Rockaway, Hempstead, West Hempstead, Long Beach, and Port Washington branches would have then been within the city (and most of the Oyster Bay branch); I imagine that they would have been captured by the subway!

 

Of course, we would definitely have needed more infrastructure west of Jamaica, so stuff like the Queens Bypass would have definitely been built, and perhaps the entire Atlantic Ave. and Montauk "city terminal" sections would have been converted as well. What we know as the would have gone from the Steinway tube to capture the entire Port Jefferson line. Between the two branches to Rosedale, one would have to remain LIRR to bring the Babylon branch in. The other would then carry the subways to both Long Beach and Far Rockaway. And since that line kept going and looped back towards the city; what would that have been like?

 

The next thing would be what buses would be like. I guess pretty much the same routes (minus the duplicate service in current Queens), but the network would be endless. That would have been quite a vast "borough"!

(You could just add 100 to all the Nassau routes except for 1-4 which would conflict with current Queens routes. They could become 105, 107, 109 and 118. So then, we would have up to Q193! Some routes would still be N, however, as they cross over. 80 and 81 for instance would still be entirely in what's left of Nassau or whatever county Oyster Bay would have become apart of.)

 

It would seem highly doubtful for these lines fully in the city to remain LIRR. Yet, they are pretty long for the subway as we know it. So perhaps they would have become different kinds of lines; like sort of cross between subways and commuter. Such hybrid lines are often discussed in the expansion plans, such as the Airtrain extension into the city taking over portions of the LIRR and/or subway. then, there is the route designation system (letters, numbers), but of course, that was not even being thought of when the decision was made to not include Hempstead.

 

So what we now call "eastern Queens" would have been covered; but then so would much of the extended borough as well! We'd now be discussing how to extend the subway to the "eastern Queens" neighborhoods of Wantaugh, Levittown and Westbury!

 

If there are no NIMBYs, I would certainly love to welcome Nassau Cty in as a new borough of NYC.

[Eric B]

I shuld have made it more clear, this was over 100 years ago, when the city was annexing the surrounding counties Kings, Queens, and the part of Westchester that became the Bronx. Hempstead Twp was apart of Queens County. But when annexing Queens, they left it out, and it became part of Nassau.

[MTR Admiralty]

I shuld have made it more clear, this was over 100 years ago, when the city was annexing the surrounding counties Kings, Queens, and the part of Westchester that became the Bronx. Hempstead Twp was apart of Queens County. But when annexing Queens, they left it out, and it became part of Nassau.

 

Why did they leave the eastern part out?

[Joe]

As far as the subway being extended at least to Valley Stream, I don't think it will happen in the next 10 years (i'm speaking in terms of residents accepting it). In a good 10-15 years, the population will be a mirror of Rosedale and Laurelton (we always call this place Valley Queens anyway ) and the subway will be a much wanted connection to the rest of NYC.

 

What do I think? Start diggin'!

[MTR Admiralty]

As far as the subway being extended at least to Valley Stream, I don't think it will happen in the next 10 years (i'm speaking in terms of residents accepting it). In a good 10-15 years, the population will be a mirror of Rosedale and Laurelton (we always call this place Valley Queens anyway ) and the subway will be a much wanted connection to the rest of NYC.

 

What do I think? Start diggin'!

 

LOL, perhaps you should get the people there to petition for a subway instead.

[Joe]

It wouldn't happen anytime soon. Getting down to brass tacks, there's still a lot of old fashioned white people here that view the subway as a magnet for degenerates. The LIRR doesn't have a reputation for that on the same level as the subway.

[MTR Admiralty]

It wouldn't happen anytime soon. Getting down to brass tacks, there's still a lot of old fashioned white people here that view the subway as a magnet for degenerates. The LIRR doesn't have a reputation for that on the same level as the subway.

 

Yeah, those NIMBYs