Second Avenue Subway

[Joe]

SAS is not going to 100% parallel the lex with stops, that would be way too redundant.

 

Ah, really? Then why do the other lines have essentially mirrored stops, just shifted over by an avenue or two?

[Y2Julio]

Because they were built in the days of IRT, BMT and IND. They used to compete against each other for customers.

[LTA1992]

Because they were built in the days of IRT, BMT and IND. They used to compete against each other for customers.

 

Exactimundo.

[Joe]

Because they were built in the days of IRT, BMT and IND. They used to compete against each other for customers.

 

And how long has it been since the stations were created? That's right, and there's no reason to change it now.

[LTA1992]

And how long has it been since the stations were created? That's right, and there's no reason to change it now.

 

There is one reason wich i personally hate and think is stupid, MONEY.

[Y2Julio]

And how long has it been since the stations were created? That's right, and there's no reason to change it now.

 

Might not make economical sense?

[MTR Admiralty]

I wonder why they arent building a station at 57th st and 50th st. I could kinda understand 57th being difficult since that intersection is busy and would cause a lot of problems since the stations are cut and cover.

 

If they build a station at 50th st they coudl then built a corridor to Lex and 53rd to connect with the E/V and 6.

 

 

 

 

I think they should use whats already available as far as tunnels go. I can understand the the ones in chinatown, but at Houston? I would think it would be harder to build under. Perhaps breaking into the current shell would case structural problems. Eh...

 

You know something, I actually posed similar questions.

To me, it would be logical to have stations at 50th and 60th Streets, to take advantage of two important transfers. The SAS was built to relieve the SAS, no?

[dustclee]

You know something, I actually posed similar questions.

To me, it would be logical to have stations at 50th and 60th Streets, to take advantage of two important transfers. The SAS was built to relieve the SAS, no?

 

You mean the Lex?

[Tbirdbassist]

I'm sure that's what he meant.

 

And originally it was just to compete with the IRT, I'm sure. Now though I'm sure one of the main goals is to relieve the ridiculousness which is the Lex Ave line.

 

 

 

A station at 60th street wouldn't really work either as it would disrupt pretty much all Queens Borough Bridge traffic unless they built it like the 63rd and Lex stop.

 

 

I guess 55th was chosen because it's right between 53rd and 57th. There probably will be an exit at 56th or 57th st if the stations downtown end is at or just below 55th st.

[MTR Admiralty]

You mean the Lex?

WHOOPS. :cool: Thanks for spotting it.

I'm sure that's what he meant.

 

And originally it was just to compete with the IRT, I'm sure. Now though I'm sure one of the main goals is to relieve the ridiculousness which is the Lex Ave line.

 

A station at 60th street wouldn't really work either as it would disrupt pretty much all Queens Borough Bridge traffic unless they built it like the 63rd and Lex stop.

 

I guess 55th was chosen because it's right between 53rd and 57th. There probably will be an exit at 56th or 57th st if the stations downtown end is at or just below 55th st.

 

There will be an exit at 57th Street at the 55th Street Station. The thing is, they want to minimise the number of stations because of:

-Cost

-And to allow the trains to run on higher speeds due to the greater spacing between stations

-Which is why they are not planning to have express service

[Maserati7200]

another thing about the SAS, why the hell is it taking so long to build? PHASE ONE, is taking about 4-5 years. I do not expect to see the until 2025 at this rate because we can only see the when phase 3 is done. And the phase four, which completes the line probably won't be finished until 2030 or later.

 

The Contract One IRT took ~4 years to build (I think they started in 1900) and that was a MUCH bigger line than phase one of the SAS, which is taking 4-5 years.

 

That was 1900, today is 2009. We have technology beyond the dreams of the people in 1900. Wouldn't one think we could build a subway faster or at least not build it SIGNIFICANTLY slower than 109 years ago?

 

Think about this, the SAS will not be completed for another 20 years!!! I'll be 35!!!

[UlmerPark B6]

This is America!!!

One thing, that America can never promise you, is doing public projects on time.

[Maserati7200]

This is America!!!

One thing, that America can never promise you, is doing public projects on time.

 

Yeah but America in 1900 was faster! why? XD

[MTR Admiralty]

Yeah but America in 1900 was faster! why? XD

Bare in mind the following factors:

-Cost: the cost of the subway back then was relatively cheap

-Construction: we are using TBM and mining. Most of the original IRT was built using cut and cover; we will build ventilation buildings in lieu of sidewalk gratings

-Demand: 100 something years ago, there aren't that many BIG BIG cities. Now, there are a lot of metropolises that are demanding for subways, especially since the latter half of the 20th Century when people realised that autos are smoking up their cities and all that jazz.

-Materials: The demand is growing yet the materials would remain relatively constant. This would increase the cost.

-Existing infrastructure: The original IRT had very little impediments during construction. It was the only subway line! Now, the SAS would have to deal with several existing subway tunnels, a railway tunnel and an auto tunnel to Queens.

 

America in 1900 was not essentially faster.

[Trainmaster5]

Yeah but America in 1900 was faster! why? XD

 

I wonder about that all the time when I'm pounding the road on Lexington Ave. Even with all the infrastructure involved I can't fathom why phase one should take more than 4-5 years from planning studies to a finished product. Then again my home city has had a major hole in the ground since 9/11 so nothing really surprises me when it comes to construction projects in NYC.

[R32 3348]

There are about 50-75 workers working on the section between 91-95 streets, and probably fewer people at both 95-99 and 68-72. The original IRT had thousands, tens of thousands of people working on it. Not to mention labor has much more restrictions in 2009. One accident and construction stops for a week in order for accident procedures and whatnot to go about. Not to mention that the TBM will enter the ground in late 2009 or 2010 - then finish at 68th at around the end of that year. Then there's the stations that'll take about a year each to finish. Add the cost of fixing those tunnels to accomodate trains, adding track and signaling, etc. and you can see why it is taking so long.

[MTR Admiralty]

There are about 50-75 workers working on the section between 91-95 streets, and probably fewer people at both 95-99 and 68-72. The original IRT had thousands, tens of thousands of people working on it. Not to mention labor has much more restrictions in 2009. One accident and construction stops for a week in order for accident procedures and whatnot to go about. Not to mention that the TBM will enter the ground in late 2009 or 2010 - then finish at 68th at around the end of that year. Then there's the stations that'll take about a year each to finish. Add the cost of fixing those tunnels to accomodate trains, adding track and signaling, etc. and you can see why it is taking so long.

 

Don't overlook the fact that many cities worldwide are either building new subway systems or extending their existing systems. We are not the only one in the world, bub.

[Tbirdbassist]

What do other cities expanding/adding subways have to do with how long it is taking ours?

 

Even despite all the factors it shouldn't take as long as it is.

 

 

I hope to, and expect to see a couple subway expansions in my lifetime so really I'm not really complaining. It'll get done when it'll get done.

[MTR Admiralty]

What do other cities expanding/adding subways have to do with how long it is taking ours?

 

 

Materials, machinery, equipment?

[Maserati7200]

Materials, machinery, equipment?

 

So, basically supply and demand?

[MTR Admiralty]

So, basically supply and demand?

 

Well, you can't argue priority because the SAS is among the top priority projects, so it is supposedly getting a lot of governmental funds compared to some small potato project.

And also the technology, we are talking about TBM man. And look at the engineering required. NYC is very built up, especially in Manhattan. Building stations or the tunnels would require a lot of money and time.

[Tbirdbassist]

You still didn't answer my question from before. We have most machinery/equipment (same thing) and materials already available. The rest is on it's way. How do other cities expanding have anything to do with our city?

 

These other cities have to do the same thing we are doing, yet everywhere else, things get done faster than here. I'm not an expert on planning by any means, but it seems like when any construction project is started in this city, not just subways, only some of the funding is there and shit gets started without knowing if it can/will get finished in the estimated time or even a second extended estimated time. It's like NYC has a handicap or something.

 

The only thing really built up on 2nd Ave from Harlem to Houston are the sewers. Utility relocation is the biggest obstacle. The 2nd Ave tunnel is gonna be above all the east river tunnels I'm pretty sure. I haven't seen the construction contract in detail (can you?). If they are literally building one 6 block spot at time, which it seems like they are doing, it will take forever.

 

If in the contract they chose to do a small space at a time as apposed to a large section being worked on at once, it was silly. The amount of money spent would be no different. Especially since the money for phase I is already in place.

 

A TBM is no space station. It's a 150+ year old method of tunnelling only within the last what? 40-ish years they started being computer guided and they still only average 40-60ft a day? Unfortunately it's stil the cheapest, fastest and cleanest way to build tunnels. I don't think laser-light cutting has moved to things that large. High Pressure water cutting would require a lot of pumping and also would be much, much more expensive.

 

I'm an architecture major and have a well enough understanding of engineering from working with them in projects that none of what is being undertaken is a great engineering feat by any means. It seems like some decisions were made without considering inflation.

 

It should not take 8 years for 33 blocks and three stations, IMO. At this rate I don't think phase I will be done until 2016 or 2017.

[R32 3348]

You still didn't answer my question from before. We have most machinery/equipment (same thing) and materials already available. The rest is on it's way. How do other cities expanding have anything to do with our city?

 

These other cities have to do the same thing we are doing, yet everywhere else, things get done faster than here. I'm not an expert on planning by any means, but it seems like when any construction project is started in this city, not just subways, only some of the funding is there and shit gets started without knowing if it can/will get finished in the estimated time or even a second extended estimated time. It's like NYC has a handicap or something.

 

The only thing really built up on 2nd Ave from Harlem to Houston are the sewers. Utility relocation is the biggest obstacle. The 2nd Ave tunnel is gonna be above all the east river tunnels I'm pretty sure. I haven't seen the construction contract in detail (can you?). If they are literally building one 6 block spot at time, which it seems like they are doing, it will take forever.

 

If in the contract they chose to do a small space at a time as apposed to a large section being worked on at once, it was silly. The amount of money spent would be no different. Especially since the money for phase I is already in place.

 

A TBM is no space station. It's a 150+ year old method of tunnelling only within the last what? 40-ish years they started being computer guided and they still only average 40-60ft a day? Unfortunately it's stil the cheapest, fastest and cleanest way to build tunnels. I don't think laser-light cutting has moved to things that large. High Pressure water cutting would require a lot of pumping and also would be much, much more expensive.

 

I'm an architecture major and have a well enough understanding of engineering from working with them in projects that none of what is being undertaken is a great engineering feat by any means. It seems like some decisions were made without considering inflation.

 

It should not take 8 years for 33 blocks and three stations, IMO. At this rate I don't think phase I will be done until 2016 or 2017.

The TBM is only going to drill so slowly because it's through some of the hardest rock in the world, Manhattan schist. The soft-earth TBM that will be required for Phase IV will drill faster.

 

And I know the answer. Money. The IRT was fully funded. SAS is only half funded. You can't really move on ahead on this project if it's not funded properly. The project was pushed back two years BECAUSE of lack of funding. If we had the $5 billion I guarantee you Phase I would be done by say November 2012.

[Tbirdbassist]

Exactly! Those are the words I somehow couldn't figure out to say.

 

 

Porjects in this city have a tendency to be started witohut being fully funded... it's just a bad move.

[TexasDART]

Porjects in this city have a tendency to be started witohut being fully funded... it's just a bad move.

 

And, eventhough they probably did not know how bad the economy was going to be right now, having a fully funded project or phase of that project makes them look a lot smarter and cuts down on problems at a later date.