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TeeLow

If You Were Robert Moses in 2009 What New Subways Would You Build?

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Robert Moses was a master builder. He had grand visions and the ability to get it done. Before you delve into my little project read a little about the man so you can understand what I'm proposing.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/bday/1218.html

 

OK now that you know a little bit about Mr Moses let's have some fun!

 

You are Robert(a) Moses. The date is 2009. The Transit system is flush with money from good investments, real estate revenue, Captial Grants and Bonds sales. Ridership is up 30 percent because city population grew by 15% in the last ten years. The Governor and Mayor both agree that the system needs to be expanded and fast! You're given a budget of $50 billion.

 

Here's my Capital Plan:

 

Current System Additions

(1)(9)- Bring back the (9) and run it express on the middle track btn 242 and Dykeman 6AM-1PM to the city and to the Bronx til 8PM. Skip stop btn Dykeman and 96th 6A-8P

 

(3)<4>Brooklyn- Build a middle track btn New Lots and Sutter-Rutland. Run Rush Hour Only <4> Express trains to and from the city.

 

<4>Bronx- Same deal here. The RHO <4> would run the middle track making Exp stops btn 125 and Woodlawn to and from.

 

(F)(G)Brooklyn- Extend (G) to Church Ave btn rush hours and to Kings Hwy during RH with full train lengths. (F) runs Exp btn Bergen (reopen lower level) and Church Ave and RHO Kings Hwy middle track if logistics allow for a smooth (G) turnaround. (G) terminates @ Smith 9th late night and wkends.

 

(J)(Z)Jamaica/Brooklyn- Build a middle track btn 121 and Cypress Hills. (Z) runs Exp all day. All stops btn Alabama & Crescent. (Z) Exp btn Myrtle and Marcy. Reverse for eve rush. (J) to Broad St all times. (Z) runs 6A-10P Mon-Sun.

 

Extensions

(2)(5)Brooklyn- Extend this line with new construction to Ave Z under Nostrand.

 

(A)©Ozone Pk/Jamaica- Extend the (C) to Francis via Libety/Farmers/Linden putting it underground after Lefferts. (A) to Rock Pk/Far Rock all times. (C) shuttle btn Euclid and FLB after hours.

 

(F)(V)Jamaica- Extend the line to Springfield Blvd with new construction. (V) runs btn Springfield and 179 eves and wkends and to 2nd Ave during the day.

 

(J)(Z)Jamaica- Extend the (J) to Springfield Blvd under Merrick Blvd. (Z) runs btn Jam Center & Broad 6A-10P Mon-Sun.

 

 

There's a lot more I want to do. didn't want the post to be too much! What would you do with 150 billion dollars!

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Robert Moses wouldn't be building transit systems. He would be destroying neighborhoods to build more highways. Robert Moses was an Automobile man. His big projects were highways and bridges.

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Robert Moses wouldn't be building transit systems. He would be destroying neighborhoods to build more highways. Robert Moses was an Automobile man. His big projects were highways and bridges.

 

Yes I know Robert was a car guy. He chose the personal vehicle over public transit. I used him because he was a mover and shaker behind the scenes who knew how to cut thru the political red tape and get stuff done. So what I'm obviously saying here is use that same mindset and apply it to the subways. Or if you just can't see yourself as 'Moses' lol then be yourself and build your own system. What would you do with 50 billion :)

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Yea, he is up there with w bush in my list of least favorite people. That said i do have some ideas!

 

Light rail in long island connecting to LIRR, re-activation of any/all LIRR branches with new stations. SAS, crosstown shuttle at 14th, 34, 96, and 125th st, rail bridge between NJ and NY, new rail terminal east of penn station for freight with 2 new tunnels to bring those tracks to long island, all new high speed line with catenary vs 3rd rail for LIRR... MNRR where possible. Refurbish all of GCT and NYP to make it clean fun, safe, modern, and nice to be in all hours of the day.

 

Bring elevated freight back to manhattan via 3rd ave elevated line from bx that leads into tunnel to staten island.

 

Subway would be 100% rebuilt with new cleaned up stations restored to their original glory and charm.

 

Olympic games ready/worthy sports venue in flushing meadows park for swimming weightlifting etc etc.

 

Smart lanes for automated traffic control.

 

Street cars and trollybus replace internal combustion in surface transit.

 

Carbon/methane scrubbers that also filter other bad stuff from the air here and there.

 

More trees & planted areas with benches.

 

Pedestrian bridges where possible.

 

- A

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Yea, he is up there with w bush in my list of least favorite people. That said i do have some ideas!

 

Yep, you don't have to like the guy to still admire what he did achieve and how he got it done. Not including Dubya!

 

Light rail in long island connecting to LIRR, re-activation of any/all LIRR branches with new stations. SAS, crosstown shuttle at 14th, 34, 96, and 125th st, rail bridge between NJ and NY, new rail terminal east of penn station for freight with 2 new tunnels to bring those tracks to long island, all new high speed line with catenary vs 3rd rail for LIRR... MNRR where possible. Refurbish all of GCT and NYP to make it clean fun, safe, modern, and nice to be in all hours of the day.

 

Light rail crossed my mind to connect up north-south with those new extensions I suggested in Qns but thought it was too ambitious lol. So your Light Rail plan definitely has merit.

 

SAS? :confused:

Where would your NJ-NY rail bridge cross? Hudson? Bayonne River to S.I.?

Freight terminal in midtown? Hmm...gotta think about that one. I like the rail link to connect thru LIC maybe hooking up via Hunterspoint/Sunnydale Yard.

Caternary lines to replace 3rd Rail? Yeah once you move east of Jamaica it could work. MNRR it would work north of 96th St. GC & Penn Sta definitely needs facelifts!

 

Bring elevated freight back to manhattan via 3rd ave elevated line from bx that leads into tunnel to staten island.

 

Nice idea. Would this Freight Line tie in with the rail bridge from NJ and your proposed midtown Freight hub?

 

Subway would be 100% rebuilt with new cleaned up stations restored to their original glory and charm.

 

Most definitely but where would you start? Signals? Road beds & rails? Any new lines or extensions?

 

Olympic games ready/worthy sports venue in flushing meadows park for swimming weightlifting etc etc.

 

Cool!

 

Smart lanes for automated traffic control.

 

Sounds nice. Could you elaborate?

 

Street cars and trollybus replace internal combustion in surface transit.

 

Interesting. It works in Seattle and Portland. Could work in S.I. Doubt if it could work in the other boros. Too much car traffic, double parking, deliveries

 

Carbon/methane scrubbers that also filter other bad stuff from the air here and there.

 

Another interesting suggestion. One question...what would you do with the used filters filled with methane and carbon? Maybe build a Conversion Center and recycle the methane for industrial uses. Good idea MetsFan!

 

More trees & planted areas with benches.

 

Can always use more trees. They beautify and purify!

 

Pedestrian bridges where possible.

 

- A

 

You have some good ideas here. :cool:

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I have ambitous plans for the subway, I might have something similar to the ones posted here

 

1. Extend the (N) and (W) to serve LaGuardia Airport in Queens

2. Make the Second Avenue Subway a reality (Q) and (T) via 2nd Avenue.

3. Extend the (2)(5) to Sheepshead Bay via Nostrand Avenue, and build a yard there.

4. Make the (A) train go to the Bronx to 242 Street, but not run on the (1) track.

5. Extend the (D) train to Dyre Avenue, as was intended, but not share tracks with the (5)

6. (G) to Kings Highway via Culver (F)

7. (:) serve Coney Island via Brighton peak direction

8. (W) serve Brooklyn via Lower Manhattan/ 4 Avenue/ Sea Beach rush hours.

 

That's all I can think of.

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Moses is the champion of roads and parks. He wouldn't even consider the subway being extended.

However, if I were a major urban builder that is focused on subways:

I would say: REALISE THE ENTIRE IND SECOND SYSTEM AS MUCH AS WE CAN!

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This is just for fun and kicks. First I want to see the (R) train going into Staten Island to connect at Grasmere with the (SIR.) Think of a new letter for it. (I) is a good one- for Island. I would love to see tunnels past the World Trade Center stop on the (E) to meet with the (R) and go to Rector Street, Whitehall Street, Governors Island, Ellis Island, Statue of Liberty and meet with the (SIR) at St. George in Staten Island. I think I have a better chance of hitting the Mega Millions jackpot than seeing that. I remember years ago, there was talk about a train stopping at the Statue of Liberty. The (MTA) should rebuilt the Myrtle Street El and have it connect with the Queens Blvd lines at 74 St/ Roosevelt Avenue stop. They should brink back the (JFK) Express and built a tunnel into Kennedy airport. (Just like the CTA building a tunnel into O'Hare Airport in Chicago. As one member suggested, the (N) should be extended into La Guardia Airport. I would love to see the North Shore (SIR) rebuilt and reopened. Finally a subway to be built under Richmond Avenue. Grant it this will never happen in our lifetimes, but let me know what you guys think.

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Take this opportunity to fix up the (J) for good.

This is my proposal.

First, build a concrete modern el between Broadway Junction (where Jamaica Ave. connects with Broadway) and Cypress Hills station along Jamaica Ave. This will eliminate the Crescent St. curve and only slightly sharpen the curve approaching Alabama Ave. Also, the Cypress Hills station will be closed and be replaced with a Crescent St. station. The el will have space for three tracks. Now, once that this structure is built, tear down the line on Fulton St. since the Jamaica el will be its replacement. After this is done, convert Woodhaven Blvd. into an express station (Crescent will be express as well). Then add the third track between BWJ and 121.

 

I know, outlandish, but under this proposal we're supposed to assume we have the money. Not to mention this was actually proposed in the 1968 plan for action.

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This is just for fun and kicks. First I want to see the (R) train going into Staten Island to connect at Grasmere with the (SIR.) Think of a new letter for it. (I) is a good one- for Island. I would love to see tunnels past the World Trade Center stop on the (E) to meet with the (R) and go to Rector Street, Whitehall Street, Governors Island, Ellis Island, Statue of Liberty and meet with the (SIR) at St. George in Staten Island. I think I have a better chance of hitting the Mega Millions jackpot than seeing that. I remember years ago, there was talk about a train stopping at the Statue of Liberty. The (MTA) should rebuilt the Myrtle Street El and have it connect with the Queens Blvd lines at 74 St/ Roosevelt Avenue stop. They should brink back the (JFK) Express and built a tunnel into Kennedy airport. (Just like the CTA building a tunnel into O'Hare Airport in Chicago. As one member suggested, the (N) should be extended into La Guardia Airport. I would love to see the North Shore (SIR) rebuilt and reopened. Finally a subway to be built under Richmond Avenue. Grant it this will never happen in our lifetimes, but let me know what you guys think.

 

I really doubt that underwater tunnels would be built under the Lower NY Bay between LoMan and the Island, especially for the subway. So yeah, the chances are super slim to none.

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I have ambitous plans for the subway, I might have something similar to the ones posted here

 

1. Extend the (N) and (W) to serve LaGuardia Airport in Queens

2. Make the Second Avenue Subway a reality (Q) and (T) via 2nd Avenue.

3. Extend the (2)(5) to Sheepshead Bay via Nostrand Avenue, and build a yard there.

4. Make the (A) train go to the Bronx to 242 Street, but not run on the (1) track.

5. Extend the (D) train to Dyre Avenue, as was intended, but not share tracks with the (5)

6. (G) to Kings Highway via Culver (F)

7. (:P serve Coney Island via Brighton peak direction

8. (W) serve Brooklyn via Lower Manhattan/ 4 Avenue/ Sea Beach rush hours.

 

That's all I can think of.

 

1) Good idea!

2) Hope it doesn't take 20 years to finish it!

3) Good suggestion

4) Under Broadway? Kinda redundant donja think? How about being really adventurous and send the (A) up the hill to Riverdale using a more or less even grade the whole way? Stops at Kingsbridge, 231 & Riverdale, 253 and City Line. Use elevators at 253 and City Line. Whatcha think?

5) Nice!

6) Yep!

7) Agreed

8) Extending from Whitehall St? Cool!

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Moses is the champion of roads and parks. He wouldn't even consider the subway being extended.

However, if I were a major urban builder that is focused on subways:

I would say: REALISE THE ENTIRE IND SECOND SYSTEM AS MUCH AS WE CAN!

 

Yeah I saw the blog post earlier. Fascinating! Make it so Number One :P

 

OK OK so Robert wasn't a chanpion of Mass Transit. Us Transit buffs wish he had been. But imagine New York without no Triborough Bridge, Throgs Neck, Verrazano-Narrows, West Side Highway or Long Island parkway system? Like it or not, he was a visionary. Without those roads and bridges we'd have just as many cars but a lot more jam ups. Perhaps more subways would've been built but without someone to champion Mass Transit like Moses did roads I sincerely doubt it.

 

Anyways that's my 2 round Lincolns on it lol

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Yeah I saw the blog post earlier. Fascinating! Make it so Number One :P

 

OK OK so Robert wasn't a chanpion of Mass Transit. Us Transit buffs wish he had been. But imagine New York without no Triborough Bridge, Throgs Neck, Verrazano-Narrows, West Side Highway or Long Island parkway system? Like it or not, he was a visionary. Without those roads and bridges we'd have just as many cars but a lot more jam ups. Perhaps more subways would've been built but without someone to champion Mass Transit like Moses did roads I sincerely doubt it.

 

Anyways that's my 2 round Lincolns on it lol

 

Truth be told, if we don't have those roads we may be in a bigger mess. One can argue that the FDR is redundant. LOOK AT IT. If it never was built, we may have epic traffic jams today. Cars would flood Queens Blvd today if the LIE never existed.

If those bridges never existed, there would be huge problems, since it would call for using the 59th Street Bridge first in Manhattan before getting on one those East River Bridges. These bridges are huge short cuts that we take for granted today.

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This is just for fun and kicks. First I want to see the (R) train going into Staten Island to connect at Grasmere with the (SIR.) Think of a new letter for it. (I) is a good one- for Island. I would love to see tunnels past the World Trade Center stop on the (E) to meet with the (R) and go to Rector Street, Whitehall Street, Governors Island, Ellis Island, Statue of Liberty and meet with the (SIR) at St. George in Staten Island. I think I have a better chance of hitting the Mega Millions jackpot than seeing that. I remember years ago, there was talk about a train stopping at the Statue of Liberty. The (MTA) should rebuilt the Myrtle Street El and have it connect with the Queens Blvd lines at 74 St/ Roosevelt Avenue stop. They should brink back the (JFK) Express and built a tunnel into Kennedy airport. (Just like the CTA building a tunnel into O'Hare Airport in Chicago. As one member suggested, the (N) should be extended into La Guardia Airport. I would love to see the North Shore (SIR) rebuilt and reopened. Finally a subway to be built under Richmond Avenue. Grant it this will never happen in our lifetimes, but let me know what you guys think.

 

I like the R to the Island via a Narrows tunnel and maybe taking ovewr the abandoned rail link. Nice. The Myrtle Ave extension is a nice idea but wouldn't it be better underground? An extension to JFK would be a cool thing

 

Take this opportunity to fix up the (J) for good.

This is my proposal.

First, build a concrete modern el between Broadway Junction (where Jamaica Ave. connects with Broadway) and Cypress Hills station along Jamaica Ave. This will eliminate the Crescent St. curve and only slightly sharpen the curve approaching Alabama Ave. Also, the Cypress Hills station will be closed and be replaced with a Crescent St. station. The el will have space for three tracks. Now, once that this structure is built, tear down the line on Fulton St. since the Jamaica el will be its replacement. After this is done, convert Woodhaven Blvd. into an express station (Crescent will be express as well). Then add the third track between BWJ and 121.

 

I know, outlandish, but under this proposal we're supposed to assume we have the money. Not to mention this was actually proposed in the 1968 plan for action.

 

Tremendous! Forward thinking outside the box! I love the whole Crescent-to-BWJ thing. Fantastic!

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Truth be told, if we don't have those roads we may be in a bigger mess. One can argue that the FDR is redundant. LOOK AT IT. If it never was built, we may have epic traffic jams today. Cars would flood Queens Blvd today if the LIE never existed.

If those bridges never existed, there would be huge problems, since it would call for using the 59th Street Bridge first in Manhattan before getting on one those East River Bridges. These bridges are huge short cuts that we take for granted today.

 

Exactly! Imagine NY without those bridges! We love our Mass Transit (greatest in existance IMO) but we still need to get around the Metro area. Without those additional roads and bridges people would still drive into the City on the fewer roads. Population has grown tremendously in the Metro area over the last 70 Years. The crush would be unbearable.

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I like the R to the Island via a Narrows tunnel and maybe taking ovewr the abandoned rail link. Nice. The Myrtle Ave extension is a nice idea but wouldn't it be better underground? An extension to JFK would be a cool thing

 

Tremendous! Forward thinking outside the box! I love the whole Crescent-to-BWJ thing. Fantastic!

If it is ever built the Myrtle Ext should be underground.

8713's plans do carry a lot of thinking and it does help the people. :tup:

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Robert Moses wouldn't be building transit systems. He would be destroying neighborhoods to build more highways. Robert Moses was an Automobile man. His big projects were highways and bridges.

 

Heh...beat me to it...

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I've got a big post coming, with track maps to boot. Basically everything that was to be the IND Second System, IRT and BMT extensions and m own new lines. Basically if they were to all be built, you wouldn't have to rely on the bus in Queens anymore...

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Heh...beat me to it...

 

*Sigh* The reason I used Robert Moses as an example is because he thought and saw years ahead. He anticipated the growrh of traffic and planned for it, hence the title Visionary. I was asking people to use their visionary skills when they thought about how they would improve the subways. But I see it's waaay easier for some to state the obvious than enjoy and play along.

 

Like this "Guy" here. 4 words, one sentence, nothing positive added except to repeat something that's already been said by 3 other members. I know my post count is low but don't treat me like I'm just out of Junior High. I'd never come into someone's thread and do what you just did. It's understood that there are many younger members and I'm happy to hear what all of you have to offer because you have fresh views and new ideas, which is usually a good thing.

 

At the same time a little forethought goes a long way towards showing your level of maturity and you'll get much more dap (respect) from your Transit peers by demonstrating it. Thanks Dude

 

*Ends Rant*

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I've got a big post coming, with track maps to boot. Basically everything that was to be the IND Second System, IRT and BMT extensions and m own new lines. Basically if they were to all be built, you wouldn't have to rely on the bus in Queens anymore...

 

Man I can't wait to see it! My mouth is watering in anticipation! Good looking out B)

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Robert Moses is the reason you can't take a train directly from Staten Island to Manhattan.

 

When the SIRT was electrified, the location and height of the third rail was deliberately chosen to be identical to that of the BMT subway. Rolling stock was similar externally to the BMT standard cars in use at the time, although the SIRT cars had reversible seats. Work on tunnel headings under the Narrows was begun in 1924, but fell victim to political and financial problems. The idea was to have connected the Staten Island Railway to the BMT subway at 94th Street in Bay Ridge.

 

When the Verrazano Bridge was built, there was a proposal to put rails on the bridge, but Robert Moses would have none of it. He was stubbornly and stupidly opposed to any kind of rail mass transit. No rails on HIS bridge! He saw the bridge as one component in a new highway that would go all the way to Montauk, running part of the way along Fire Island. Fortunately, the Fire Island folks made short shrift of that!

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Robert Moses is the reason you can't take a train directly from Staten Island to Manhattan.

 

When the SIRT was electrified, the location and height of the third rail was deliberately chosen to be identical to that of the BMT subway. Rolling stock was similar externally to the BMT standard cars in use at the time, although the SIRT cars had reversible seats. Work on tunnel headings under the Narrows was begun in 1924, but fell victim to political and financial problems. The idea was to have connected the Staten Island Railway to the BMT subway at 94th Street in Bay Ridge.

 

When the Verrazano Bridge was built, there was a proposal to put rails on the bridge, but Robert Moses would have none of it. He was stubbornly and stupidly opposed to any kind of rail mass transit. No rails on HIS bridge! He saw the bridge as one component in a new highway that would go all the way to Montauk, running part of the way along Fire Island. Fortunately, the Fire Island folks made short shrift of that!

 

You see, there are the good and bad of Robert Moses.

As you mentioned, Robert Moses's coming to power redirected funds to the expanding highway network, rather than the subway. He placed the auto in front of public transit. Had he not come to power, the subways would comprehensively link all 5 boroughs, shortening commuter times.

Robert Moses's coming to power allowed us a comprehensive intra-city highway network. Without this, goods and passengers would take forever in getting from Point A to B. Staten Island would still be isolated. It would be very difficult to access the Bronx from Queens. First Avenue/Second Ave and Queens Blvd would be very jammed if the FDR and the LIE had not been built.

So his power is a mix of good and bad. We, as straphangers, tend to overlook the positives of the highway system and the relationship to the City. Perhaps it is an eyesore, but if you go to your map and peel down any highway or bridge that Moses has built in his administration you would realise the big trouble he was trying to fix. It is sad that, he did all of that at the cost of our subways.

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*Sigh* The reason I used Robert Moses as an example is because he thought and saw years ahead. He anticipated the growrh of traffic and planned for it, hence the title Visionary. I was asking people to use their visionary skills when they thought about how they would improve the subways. But I see it's waaay easier for some to state the obvious than enjoy and play along.

 

Like this "Guy" here. 4 words, one sentence, nothing positive added except to repeat something that's already been said by 3 other members. I know my post count is low but don't treat me like I'm just out of Junior High. I'd never come into someone's thread and do what you just did. It's understood that there are many younger members and I'm happy to hear what all of you have to offer because you have fresh views and new ideas, which is usually a good thing.

 

At the same time a little forethought goes a long way towards showing your level of maturity and you'll get much more dap (respect) from your Transit peers by demonstrating it. Thanks Dude

 

*Ends Rant*

 

It was a joke man, don't be so serious...

 

OK you want the big money answer? Second Avenue line from Gun Hill Rd in the Bronx down 3rd ave in the bronx, under the River, down second ave, into Brooklyn landing in Red Hook with provision for extension.

 

Extend the L to Javits as well as the 7.

 

2/5 extend to Kings Plaza

 

125th St shuttle from Broadway through Randall's Island, and terminating at Ditmars Blvd with stair/escalator/elevator transfer to the N/W

 

EJZ extended to 168 with a cross over in front of the station to increase the terminal capacity.

 

R to 179 all times except late nights (Continental). G to Continental, south it goes to Church to supplement the F but the F still makes local stops. D extends underground from 205 to Gun Hill Rd/White Plains Rd, cross over in front of station for better terminal capacity (no need to dump at BPB)

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It was a joke man, don't be so serious...

 

OK you want the big money answer? Second Avenue line from Gun Hill Rd in the Bronx down 3rd ave in the bronx, under the River, down second ave, into Brooklyn landing in Red Hook with provision for extension.

 

Ambitious. Would have to tunnel under Botanic Garden/Bronx Zoo. What would the 1st stop S/O GHR be?

 

Extend the L to Javits as well as the 7.

 

Very doable. Hug the WSH to 22nd St then shoot up 11th Ave. Maybe do an upper-lower terminal at javits similar to the (E)(J)(Z) at Jam Ctr

 

2/5 extend to Kings Plaza

 

Put the (2)(5) under Flatbush instead of Nostrand. Nice

 

125th St shuttle from Broadway through Randall's Island, and terminating at Ditmars Blvd with stair/escalator/elevator transfer to the N/W

 

Fantastic!! Of course it would have the transfer points at the N/S lines

 

EJZ extended to 168 with a cross over in front of the station to increase the terminal capacity.

 

That's a definite though it could be extended farther north

 

R to 179 all times except late nights (Continental). G to Continental, south it goes to Church to supplement the F but the F still makes local stops. D extends underground from 205 to Gun Hill Rd/White Plains Rd, cross over in front of station for better terminal capacity (no need to dump at BPB)

 

3 locals along the Blvd? (R) to 179 would be a nice luxury. (G) to 71 is a must but if it's gonna be done it should be full time, yah? What happens to the (V)? We both agree the (G) should be extended in Bklyn. Why would you run the F local though?

 

Nice suggestions. Thanks for joining in :cool:

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