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Tbirdbassist

Is the Queens Blvd Line at track capacity?

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Just wondering.

 

 

Since anyone who's ridden it during rush hours knows how crowded it gets.

 

 

I was thinking that when money isn't such a problem and when more R160's arrive. It would be a good idea to run a couple more trains on the express tracks to calm down the crowding. They have the E that runs from 179th st in the mornings, but it seems sort of just "thrown in there". I think there's only 3 or 4 between 7 and 8am, please correct me if I'm wrong. As the E schedule online doesn't show it.

 

 

I don't know if Jamaica Center is at Terminal Capacity, but more trains to it in the evening rush would be highly ideal. Since when the E sometimes gets rerouted to 179, usually at Union Turnpike everyone gets off and waits for a JamCntr train... which is usually still full of people.

 

 

There is space beyond Jamaica Center for 4 trains (two on each track) to be laid up. So couldn't there be a system set up during the evening rush that has 4 trains that do not go back to Manhattan and instead just move out of the way and into the layup space? That way those same 4 trains could be put into service for the morning rush.

 

There are 13-15 trains that leave JamCntr between 7 and 8am currently (the time where the most people board from my observations). These 4 "extras" could be scheduled in to leave say every 15 minutes/after every 2-3 trains.

 

 

Currently only 2 trains are usually stored in that layup space (1 on each side) and they are part of the current schedule from what I can tell, which is one train every 5 or so minutes. This system plus adding a couple more E's from 179th st, as well as maybe a few more F's, would ease the extreme crowding on these lines in the mornings.

 

 

I think it would work, but I feel like I'm forgetting something. This would only work if the express tracks and JamCntr aren't at capacity.

 

 

 

As far as the R and V are concerned, the only thing I can think of that would solve it is adding more trains or bring the Damn G to 8 cars and run it to 71st. Personally, I'd have the V running to 179th St and have 8 car G trains running to/from 71st. That way you wouldn't need any E trains running to/from 179th st.

 

I say move the V to terminate at 179 because I read somewhere 71st is currently at terminal capacity. Which I believe, because those trains are relayed back way fast to the Manhattan bound side, haha. Another train having to turn around would definitely cause delays.

 

 

 

However these are just my thoughts, and there's no sign of any service additions at this time (service CUTS are the agenda :tdown:). However, it would be a nice plan for when we come out of this recession and things are stable.

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The express tracks are definitely at capacity. At max you have 15 TPH on both the (E) and the (F), when you count your 3 extras to/from Jamaica-179th St, for a total of 30 TPH. If all goes well on QB, that's 30 express trains per hour, one every 2 minutes. That's all they can take for now. Oh, and Jamaica Center is a terrible place for a terminal, due to the switches being unusually farther away from the Terminal. In reality, I think they only turn something like 12 TPH, which is why your 3 extras come from Jamaica-179th (correct me if I'm wrong). So, they honestly can't handle anymore; on the other side, Jamaica-179th St, if used at capacity (and AT capacity), could probably turn something like 50 TPH, but we don't have that much space.

 

So it can definitely handle the (F) and more, but due to QB's layout, everything is being used at capacity except the local tracks, which serve the purpose of going to Manhattan anyway. So until we find a solution to run more than 30 TPH on either tracks, we're stuck (just look at Lexington Av, 2-3 minutes on (4) and <5> trains peak combined, even with the cluttered Rogers Av Jct in Brooklyn, they can't really do anymore than that).

 

Correct any of my info if it's wrong.

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The express tracks are definitely at capacity. At max you have 15 TPH on both the (E) and the (F), when you count your 3 extras to/from Jamaica-179th St, for a total of 30 TPH. If all goes well on QB, that's 30 express trains per hour, one every 2 minutes. That's all they can take for now. Oh, and Jamaica Center is a terrible place for a terminal, due to the switches being unusually farther away from the Terminal. In reality, I think they only turn something like 12 TPH, which is why your 3 extras come from Jamaica-179th (correct me if I'm wrong). So, they honestly can't handle anymore; on the other side, Jamaica-179th St, if used at capacity (and AT capacity), could probably turn something like 50 TPH, but we don't have that much space.

 

So it can definitely handle the (F) and more, but due to QB's layout, everything is being used at capacity except the local tracks, which serve the purpose of going to Manhattan anyway. So until we find a solution to run more than 30 TPH on either tracks, we're stuck (just look at Lexington Av, 2-3 minutes on (4) and <5> trains peak combined, even with the cluttered Rogers Av Jct in Brooklyn, they can't really do anymore than that).

 

Correct any of my info if it's wrong.

 

 

Jamaica Center can only handle 12 TPH so, about 4 come from 179 St in the mornings and about 4 go to 179 St in the afternoons. It would be nice for more trains to go to 179 St, but there is limitations on what that line can handle.

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This may be, okay, IS a radical idea, but how aboyt build a second level of local and express tracks fot the (F) and (G) Trains? Its not impossible. Its been done on the 6th Avenue line by adding an express level under the PATH tracks during the 1960s because of the Crystie Street connection to the Manhattan Bridge. It could be done. You may have to severley disrupt service for about 7 years, but how many times has thet happened in the citys history?. Anyway, The current Jamaica yard could connect with the lower level Local tracks just in case trains ma have to switch levels. Lower Level Express Tracks rise up to the upper level to the location of the current tracks to connect. Throughout the Queens Blvd line, several connections between levels. It may seem unpractical but how many times in NYC Transportation history has something was thought impossible done?

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There was a day where there was a morning GO causing all local trains to run express to Manhattan, that was a crazy day. But to see 4 lines on 1 express track that was something. The trains were not running at normal speeds, it was really slow, and held up alot of locals going Jamaica bound. I had a 45 minute delay that day, it was terrible.

 

So seeing that, the express tracks are definitely at capacity to run at its exceptional speeds, unless you want them running at turtle speeds then you can always stick more trains on the tracks :cool:

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This may be, okay, IS a radical idea, but how aboyt build a second level of local and express tracks fot the (F) and (G) Trains? Its not impossible. Its been done on the 6th Avenue line by adding an express level under the PATH tracks during the 1960s because of the Crystie Street connection to the Manhattan Bridge. It could be done. You may have to severley disrupt service for about 7 years, but how many times has thet happened in the citys history?. Anyway, The current Jamaica yard could connect with the lower level Local tracks just in case trains ma have to switch levels. Lower Level Express Tracks rise up to the upper level to the location of the current tracks to connect. Throughout the Queens Blvd line, several connections between levels. It may seem unpractical but how many times in NYC Transportation history has something was thought impossible done?

There's already a lower level. I walked those tracks to do tunnel lighting maintenance. Back in the late 60s early 70s there were plans to build a Super Express that would run the length of QB. There was this big board at the southern end of CP at 6th that had the projected lines printed on it. They were building the 63rd St digout and had closed off sections of the park. They were going to use those lwr lvl tracks from Qns to tie into the 63rd St dig and the 2nd Ave line. The city went belly up and those plans were shelved. Everytime those plans resurfaced a little more was taken from it...and a little more until all that was left is what you have now: the Qns Plaza bypass, the 21st St F stop, the 63rd St Lex and the thru (non revenue) connection over to 7th Ave

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Ah so that was the plan! I heard it was going to be super express via the LIRR, but didnt think that would be too practical since it would cut in right above where the current dig for the ESA hole.

 

 

If you take the F train Jamaica bound, look out the right side and as it turns under Northern Blvd you can see the bellmouth continuing straight.

 

 

Since the bellmouth goes straight I never though there would be lower level express and thoguht the paln was to just use LIRR trackage. However maybe it was to just to dig under the LIRR ROW.

 

Where are the lower level sections, Teelow?

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Ah so that was the plan! I heard it was going to be super express via the LIRR, but didnt think that would be too practical since it would cut in right above where the current dig for the ESA hole.

 

 

If you take the F train Jamaica bound, look out the right side and as it turns under Northern Blvd you can see the bellmouth continuing straight.

 

 

Since the bellmouth goes straight I never though there would be lower level express and thoguht the paln was to just use LIRR trackage. However maybe it was to just to dig under the LIRR ROW.

 

Where are the lower level sections, Teelow?

I worked at the Qns Plaza room for about 3 months in '92 so I never got to check the whole run or to see if it was continuous with no breaks but the senior Light Maintainers who'd been there for years say it was extensive. The section our 6 man crew walked that day I believe was east of Roosevelt on the E/B track walking west toward the station beneath the 4 tracks of the main line (if memory isn't failing me lol). Another section can be seen when the Jam Ctr bound (E) leaves VWB. It sinks down beneath the (F). At that point I believe the (E) accesses those tunnels just before it heads over to Sutphin Blvd. It's been almost 17 years since the one time I rode that line so the picture in my head is kinda fuzzy. I'm sure one of the T/Os or someone who has access to track maps can give a more detailed answer.

 

Hey T when ya gonna be done with that dream map bruh? I'm looking forward to copying it, blowing it up and hanging it in my den :)

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Hmm, interesting. The ramps the E uses now were for the Van Wyck Blvd line in the Second System but probably could have tied in somehow. I'll have to hop the first car one day.

 

 

 

And, haha. I won't be finished with it for a while. Maybe another month for the hand drawings. I may end up using AutoCad to draw them on the computer because scanning in all these pages would be tiresome. Soon enough though!

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There's already a lower level. I walked those tracks to do tunnel lighting maintenance. Back in the late 60s early 70s there were plans to build a Super Express that would run the length of QB. There was this big board at the southern end of CP at 6th that had the projected lines printed on it. They were building the 63rd St digout and had closed off sections of the park. They were going to use those lwr lvl tracks from Qns to tie into the 63rd St dig and the 2nd Ave line. The city went belly up and those plans were shelved. Everytime those plans resurfaced a little more was taken from it...and a little more until all that was left is what you have now: the Qns Plaza bypass, the 21st St F stop, the 63rd St Lex and the thru (non revenue) connection over to 7th Ave

 

Weren't they supposed to go to East Queens or continue on the LIRR Row?

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This may be, okay, IS a radical idea, but how aboyt build a second level of local and express tracks fot the (F) and (G) Trains? Its not impossible. Its been done on the 6th Avenue line by adding an express level under the PATH tracks during the 1960s because of the Crystie Street connection to the Manhattan Bridge. It could be done. You may have to severley disrupt service for about 7 years, but how many times has thet happened in the citys history?. Anyway, The current Jamaica yard could connect with the lower level Local tracks just in case trains ma have to switch levels. Lower Level Express Tracks rise up to the upper level to the location of the current tracks to connect. Throughout the Queens Blvd line, several connections between levels. It may seem unpractical but how many times in NYC Transportation history has something was thought impossible done?

So you want to cancel service on the busiest line in Queens and on two of the busiest lines on the system for seven years just for some lower level that would cost tens of billions?

Yeah man, real smart...

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So you want to cancel service on the busiest line in Queens and on two of the busiest lines on the system for seven years just for some lower level that would cost tens of billions?

Yeah man, real smart...

 

And, of course, what will replace service during those years? And when will construction be over?

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Hmm, interesting. The ramps the E uses now were for the Van Wyck Blvd line in the Second System but probably could have tied in somehow. I'll have to hop the first car one day.

 

Hey I'm no expert on these things. Seems like you guys manage to dig up plans & blueprints for some of the most abstract and extraordinary things. Wouldn't be surprised if one day you guys will uncover a secret burial ground! :o

 

And, haha. I won't be finished with it for a while. Maybe another month for the hand drawings. I may end up using AutoCad to draw them on the computer because scanning in all these pages would be tiresome. Soon enough though!

 

Well I'm old enough to be patient (and senile enough to be forgetful) so I'll just think of it as an early X-Mas present :)

 

Weren't they supposed to go to East Queens or continue on the LIRR Row?

 

My man I haven't a clue. As far as I could tell by the illustrations they had on that board at 59th and 6th (some 40 odd years ago) the Super Express pretty much followed the existing layout. My G-Ma lived uptown just off CPW. I'd come up from the Ferry on the (NYCT)6 after a day of roaming. Had to wait for the (NYCT)7 rght there. Got a kick out of seeing that huge sign and that map layout. 40 years later and it's heartbreaking to see the SAS is still years away from completion :)

 

It's possible they had started some digs on QB (like they did on the 2nd Ave line) and stopped when the money ran out. But somehow I think you already have an idea or at least know how to aquire more info. You're too intelligent not to :)

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So you want to cancel service on the busiest line in Queens and on two of the busiest lines on the system for seven years just for some lower level that would cost tens of billions?

Yeah man, real smart...

 

 

 

It wouldn't cancel service, it would at most mildly disrupt it.

 

When they made the 63rd st connection there was no provision in between the local and express tracks. They had to widen the tunnel, which they did without disrupting much at all. Most of the work was done at night and on weekends if I remember correctly.

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It wouldn't cancel service, it would at most mildly disrupt it.

 

When they made the 63rd st connection there was no provision in between the local and express tracks. They had to widen the tunnel, which they did without disrupting much at all. Most of the work was done at night and on weekends if I remember correctly.

 

However that is only the 63rd Street Tunnel Connector which took a couple years to tie that bloody thing.

And we are talking about establish tunnels under the current ones. You have to underpin the existing structure in order to prevent it from collapsing. And how will you accomplish that? Knock out service in certain parts.

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