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metsfan

Tragic air crash near Buffalo, NY claims 50 lives.

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Approximately 10:20 PM eastern time continental connections flight 3407 (dash-8 q400) crashed on its way from newark to buffalo. The aircraft struck a house and burst into flame. The crash killed one person in the house, and injured 2 other people. The fire has been contained to the house it flew into and immediate surrounding areas. The fire is still burning in the wreckage. THIS JUST IN: All 49 people onboard have been announced dead by NY state police.

 

The cockpit communications confirmed rime ice, which is a type of ice (in aviation terminology specifically) that forms when water droplets contact an aircraft and turn to ice. There are 2 types. One that forms a clear glaze, and one that forms a more patchy granulated and frosty appearance. The second type can suddenly start to form all over the aircraft and drastically reduce its ability to properly fly and produce lift. As this is a developing story nothing has been specified as a cause, but the reports of rime ice on approach is a very telling indication that they were having some problems.

 

A 9/11 widow was on board. She was flying from newark to buffalo to visit with family to celebrate her late husband's birthday.

 

An off-duty pilot was on board & not counted on crew or passenger list, makes total 50. 4 crew, 48 passengers, one off-duty pilot, and one man in the house on the ground.

 

NTSB officials stated severe icing during beginning of landing procedure while flaps were being extended. They have not determined the exact cause of the incident as of yet, but noted the aircraft seemingly lost control soon after flap deployment.

 

NTSB officials also expressed concern that smaller aircraft use rubber boots (expandable membrane on leading edges) for de-icing vs heating mechanisms on larger craft and FAA failed to adopt integration of heating elements in wings. This remains high on NTSB "most wanted" safety list.

 

This post will be updated as confirmed information comes in.

 

 

artcrashaerialctv.jpg

Photo © CTV

 

Relatives and friends of those traveling on Flight 3407 who want to give or receive information about those on board may contact Continental at 800.621.3263.

 

 

Example of the aircraft pulled from wikipedia:

Flybe.dash8.750pix.jpg

 

 

 

My thoughts and condolences are with anyone affected by this horrific incident.

 

- (A)

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One of my friends was on this flight. I'm not going to be around for a few days. Any moderator etc please feel free to update the first post with new information or add additional posts whatever you want to do.

 

- A

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Being that I want to pursue a career in aviation, seeing any sort of airplane crash is devasting despite the outcome.

 

My prayers are with all the families (and A), who has lost a loved one. B)

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One of my friends was on this flight. I'm not going to be around for a few days. Any moderator etc please feel free to update the first post with new information or add additional posts whatever you want to do.

 

- A

 

 

Wow that is very sad news. My condloances and sympanthies my friend.B)

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Here a sad update. According to WKBW-TV the ABC station in the Buffalo area and AP news reports at least 50 people are now feared dead from last night crash in nearby Clearnce, NY. Also a partial list of the victims has been released that includes a widow of the '9/11' Terror Attacks. Here the news story.

 

 

BUFFALO, N.Y. Febuary 13, 2009 ( Combined WKBW-TV & Associated Press news wires reports)- The pilot of the plane that crashed near Buffalo had been with the airline for nearly 3½ years and had more than 3,000 hours of flying experience with the carrier. Capt. Marvin Renslow lived in a suburb of Tampa, Fla. Neighbors say he had two children in elementary school. The 47-year-old Renslow joined Pinnacle Airlines in September 2005. Pinnacle is the parent of Colgan Air, which was operating the plane as a Continental Connection flight. First Officer Rebecca Shaw joined the airline in January 2008. She had flown more than 2,000 hours with the carrier. Flight attendants were Matilda Quintero and Donna Prisco. An off-duty crew member was Capt. Joseph Zuffoletto.

 

A Pinnacle airlines official says the commuter plane that crashed near Buffalo, N.Y., was new and had a clean safety record, leaving investigators few immediate clues about why it suddenly plunged into a house minutes before its planned landing, killing 50 people. The aircraft crashed Thursday night about five miles from the runway, near the point where a pilot would begin setting the plane up for landing. Skies were foggy and winds were 17 mph, but there was no indication of anything out of the ordinary and no mayday call, according to a recording of air traffic control radio messages captured by the Web site LiveATC.net.

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It was a false alarm, she ended up taking the later flight. Her parents did not get the correct information. Thanks for your thoughts guys. I'm just happy some good news came of this mess.

 

----------------------------------------------------

 

Yes i'm thankful my friend is alive, however still very sad about this utterly sudden and shocking tragedy. My thanks are extended to all those who rushed to the scene initially, and official first responders who worked tirelessly all night into the morning to contain the fire and make sure this incident wasn't made worse. It could have been far, far worse. My thanks also to the fire crews from BUF (buffalo niagara international airport) for their assistance. My thoughts are with those right now who did not make it home, and have no good news of a miscommunication and their friend, family member etc is actually alive & well. To the co-workers, friends, and anyone who knew the crew and people at both colgan air, continental airlines, especially at EWR and BUF my heart is with you through this horrific ordeal.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------

 

A bit more information. The flight is a routine regional trip made every day at the same time and is classified as a commuter flight carrying mostly people going home from working in and near newark including some who work in nyc. The aircraft type (propeller) is popular because it's not much slower than a turbofan driven jet craft but offers increased fuel economy. Propeller planes are more prone to icing, however this model is equipped with features that should have made ice a non-issue. No details to weather the de-icing equipment was active or if icing was the cause of the crash. The flight was delayed along with other flights that day due to high winds. Wind delays at EWR are typical and usually only affect flights for a few hours or a day at most when they do happen from time to time. The approach assigned to this flight was one of the more undesirable to those actually landing. Hundreds of flights a week are assigned the same approach. The aircraft is a stretched version of a very widely used and popular model manufactured in canada and used by many airlines and private charter companies.

 

I cannot emphasize enough, that air travel is very safe compared to road travel, and i sincerely hope that this incident has not turned you off to propeller aircraft or put you off flying. Propeller craft have a solid and proven track record the world over and often operate in the world's harshest climates.

 

- A

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Update: NTSB officials suspect severe sudden icing may have been a major contributing factor in bringing this aircraft down, though stopping short of calling it "the" reason. The investigation is under way with answers coming as soon as they are confirmed.

 

Please refer back to the first post for additional information as it will be updated as information becomes available. Thanks!

 

- (A)

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1st One was Positive... Second one was Negative...

 

Also we've got 2 Earthquakes this year...

 

What is going on with New York? Guess there are problems from the Hadron Collider...

 

EARTH QUAKES??

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An update. I saw on the news tonight (2/15/09)that NTSB officals now suspect pilot error & frost on the plane's wings as '2' possible causes for this tragic accident.

 

 

The temps in Western NY that night of incident was below freezing around 15-20 degree (F)and the pilots might have had the plane on 'auto pilot' aka cruise control which would be a major violation of FAA rules of flying.

 

Also the cold weather in Buffalo area which caused ice on that flight's wings is also a strong reason for the crash.:)

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I don't think they suspected icing would be an issue and then it jumped all over them. These folks are pros and very skilled pilots, they don't just take jim bob joe off the street and plop them down at the controls. That being said, humans do make mistakes, and a underestimation of icing threat combined with the suddenness of the ice buildup is what likely played out, not just some guy too lazy to take the final manually.

 

- A

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I don't think they suspected icing would be an issue and then it jumped all over them. These folks are pros and very skilled pilots, they don't just take jim bob joe off the street and plop them down at the controls. That being said, humans do make mistakes, and a underestimation of icing threat combined with the suddenness of the ice buildup is what likely played out, not just some guy too lazy to take the final manually.

 

- A

 

 

I am just posting what the media has said from early NTSB investgation that all. Metsfan you might be right but lets wait until the facts are in at the end of this investgation before we say the pilots screwed up or not for this accident.

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I am just posting what the media has said from early NTSB investgation that all. Metsfan you might be right but lets wait until the facts are in at the end of this investgation before we say the pilots screwed up or not for this accident.

 

The de-icing stuff was turned on 11 minutes out of EWR and kept on the entire duration. Auto-pilot was turned off by actions of the crew putting up the landing gear and attempting to reset the flaps from their landing position to their neutral flight position. The stick shaker was activated as they attempted to do all of this, which also acted to automatically turn off the auto-pilot completely. Also they said that the airplane hit the ground going ~65 mph after the gear had closed up. Uneven icing while flaps were deployed is likely the cause of this crash, when flaps are deployed you lose a large amount of responsiveness to control input which could explain the non-recoverable nature of the situation. Slowing to landing speed, engines near or at idle, and flaps deployed = slow response and VERY bad time to have icing.

 

I personally think the combination of weather, suddenness of the icing, low speed for approach with flaps deployed is what had this plane's number. I don't think auto-pilot played a roll enough to be a contributing cause. Both the stick shake and the actions to change configuration of flaps and gear would have shut off auto-pilot in time for the crew to recover in a less severe and sudden situation.

 

But like you said we still have to wait.

 

Waiting aside... i know aircraft enough to know the likely causes of a crash, and if this plane fell in a flat spin for 5 seconds at 65-66 mph vertical speed it was caused by loss of control from what i stated above. In flight sims i've fallen in a flat spin from 50,000 feet to the ground in much more substantial aircraft with more recovery capability, so to hear that icing and flaps deployed doesn't shock me at all. It is an absolute tragedy, one that i personally will blame solely on atmospheric conditions till official NTSB report is finalized.

 

- A

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