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dmk2145

Fixing Capacity Problems on Roosevelt Island

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Hi,

I'm a master's student at in urban planning at columbia university and i'm in a studio exploring options for improving tranportation on Roosevelt Island. The tram will be shut down for 6 months starting in July and I was looking at exploring improvements in subway service for roosevelt islanders. Can people comment on the feasibility of running the R train through the 63rd street tunnel? That is, it would go

 

57-7th ave

63rd-Lexington

Roosevelt Island

Queensbridge-21st

36 St

 

It would connect back into its usual route at 36th on the Queens Blvd line. The F would run on its usual route. What do you think about this arrangement?

 

1. Is it feasible?

2. Do you think it's a good idea to have the R train run this route, regarding alleviating capacity at roosevelt island?

3. Would there be problems with this route because the Q trains need to turn around in the tracks past 57th st (could you run the Q to ditmars to solve this possible problem)

4. Are there switching issues near the 36th st station in queens under this arrangement?

 

Also other arrangements we're looking into

 

-flipping the F and the V lines so the V would go through 63rd and the F at 53rd

-Having a platform conductor posted at roosevelt island to help with capacity issues in the AM peak

 

also does anyone know if there enough trackage between 21st-queensbridge and 36 st in queens to have the Q terminate at 21st st and turn around in the area between 21st and 36th in queens?

 

Also, if anyone else any other ideas about improving service for people on roosevelt island, feel free to add to this thread. I look forward to hearing your comments.

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The first problem that I noticed with this configuration is that the (R) loses access to Queens Plaza and QBL customers lose a direct transfer at 59th-Lex to the (4)(5).

 

Then I asked myself, is it worth moving a whole line to replace the lost tram service? Would a few special (V) trains via Roosevelt Island in the rush hours be a better option?

 

That's all I've got, but I hope my 2 cents is useful. B)

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The tram being down is not the only issue. The tram being down is not a very significant factor in capacity. What is a big factor is are many new buildings in construction and being planned for roosevelt island. The capacity issues will be more severe long term when these buildings are filled.

 

In response to your response, couldnt R riders use the V on the queens boulevard line to access queens plaza? Former R riders could use the V. The connection in manhattan would be at 51st, I know its not an express, this would be my rebuttal to the problem R riders would have under the new configuration.

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The intention is good but the plan would not work. The (R) provides the easiest transfer to the Lexington Ave. line from the Queens Blvd. line, and it is the only train to provide a transfer to all three Lexington Ave. lines. Moving the train to 63rd St. takes away this transfer, and makes more people take the already overcrowded (E) train to 53rd St. (few people use the out-of-system transfer to 59th from 63rd - if they are using the (6) then they'll make the shorter trip to 68th, where no transfer exists.)

 

As for feasibility, the feasibility is limited. The only way the (R) can get from Broadway to the Queens Blvd. line via 63rd St. is to use the switch west of the Lexington Ave. station. This will delay (F) service. There won't be switch problems from Queensbridge to 36th St., but you cannot terminate the (Q) at Queensbridge. The (Q) will have problems under this arrangement at the terminal, but extending it to Ditmars may do more harm than good (capacity issues at the 60th St. tunnel with the (N)(Q) and (W) trains).

 

Flipping the (F) and the (V) will not work unless you would build one or two side platforms with elevators and escalators at Lexington and 53rd, because the station has too many crowding issues.

 

Since the tram will close for six months, which is a rather short period of time, the (MTA) won't look for ways to restructure routes. I hope I helped.

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The tram being down is not the only issue. The tram being down is not a very significant factor in capacity. What is a big factor is are many new buildings in construction and being planned for roosevelt island. The capacity issues will be more severe long term when these buildings are filled.

 

In response to your response, couldnt R riders use the V on the queens boulevard line to access queens plaza? Former R riders could use the V. The connection in manhattan would be at 51st, I know its not an express, this would be my rebuttal to the problem R riders would have under the new configuration.

 

Oh I see, new buildings.

In that case, they should look into:

- re-working the current configuration, so the 63rd St trains can also access Queens Plaza, to reduce complaints

- a transfer from this "new" Queens Plaza to Queensboro Plaza

- building a lower level on QBL, or an alternative (since QBL is already at capacity, as I read on another thread on these forums), to increase Roosevelt Island service.

Not realistic, but what can you do, lol.

 

Even if you do put the (R) on 63rd St now, it won't last too long until another problem arises. When SAS opens, the (Q) will also be using the 63rd St tunnel, so you'd have the (R) and (Q) there until the (Q) turns into 2nd Ave. Potential delays there.

 

Heh, this really looks like a complicated issue. Good luck, man!

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Ferry service using metrocard from the dock facing 63rd st! :cool:

 

I think all they need to do is maybe have a LIRR stop there once ESA is completed. Since the tunnels are on top of each other it shouldn't be an issue. You could even have a connection between the 2 stations. Have it be used in peak hours in peak direction.

 

- A

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Dustclee hit the nail on the head with that one. The (R) is very much needed where it is right now. Hmm (V) line could be replaced to go up there I suppose. But since the (F) is a major line already, the crowding it has already would be 10x worst once it gets through 61st and Lexington. The only way to level that out would be to extend (V) service into Brooklyn I think as far as 7th Avenue or Church Avenue but I been for a while now hoping they'd extend the (G) out that way first. Otherwise i'd say leave everything as is.

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I'd rather send the Q to continental on the qb local instead

The Q would continue at 57 st then go via the 63rd tunnel (lex,Roosevelt island,21queensbridge) then follow the r to continental

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Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPod; U; CPU iPhone OS 2_2_1 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/525.18.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.1.1 Mobile/5H11a Safari/525.20)

 

I'd rather send the Q to continental on the qb local instead

The Q would continue at 57 st then go via the 63rd tunnel (lex,Roosevelt island,21queensbridge) then follow the r to continental

 

I guess in a way it's always been weird for me how the (Q) terminates at 57th St. But the fact that it goes all the way into Coney Island now I don't think too many T/Os would like to have to run Qs into Forest Hills.

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(N) Express via Bridge to Astoria

(Q) Local via Tunnel to Astoria

(R) Express via 63rd Street and Bridge between Forest Hills and 95th Street (or even better yet, Coney Island via West End)

(W) One of two options: Either eliminate the train or have it run between Forest Hills and Whitehall Street via Broadway Local during the peak periods.

 

Benefits:

 

Astoria riders gets two trains (potentially) at all times.

Astoria riders gets 24/7 access to Whitehall Street (with one train)

Queens Blvd passengers gets faster service into the Broadway line

Roosevelt Island / Queensbridge customers get double the service

 

 

All Astoria trains run on the local tracks north of 34th Street, and the Forest Hills / Harlem trains run on the express tracks. You no longer have congestion at 57th Street, and no longer need to have trains terminate there. This also gives

 

(Ideally I would send the (D) to 95th Street and have it run via 4th Avenue Local, because it would give 95th Street Concourse Yards, and give all the Broadway trains access to Coney Island, and have the (R) run via West End to Coney Island)

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Don't worry MetsFan, LIRR would do good since it could increase capacity at a greater rate... Since the cars are long, large and comfortable...

 

I concur but where would the tunnel be? South Part Of R.I. or North Part?

 

The tunnel is all ready there. The 63rd st tunnel, which the (F) uses is on top of the LIRR part of the tunnel. The tunnel has 4 sections in 2 levels. Upper and lower levels and north and south bearing area on each level.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/63rd_Street_Tunnel

 

Simply make a station building next to the subway station for LIRR that connects to the lower level. The (F) station's area at track level runs the entire width of the island plus some, so you'd need to have information posted everywhere that the whole LIRR train isn't going to platform, and pick what part of the train will. It's amazing to me that the station doesn't leak and fill with water, but it would work and be totally safe. Those engineers knew what they were doing!

 

- A

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I've explored the LIRR option, it's just not feasible at this juncture. Way too expensive, MTA has many other capital projects going on. Regarding ferry service, they are exploring it, but there are major issues involving rough tides near roosevelt island. Also, ferry service can be unreliable in adverse weather conditions.

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I've explored the LIRR option, it's just not feasible at this juncture. Way too expensive, MTA has many other capital projects going on. Regarding ferry service, they are exploring it, but there are major issues involving rough tides near roosevelt island. Also, ferry service can be unreliable in adverse weather conditions.

 

Correct. I've seen the east river in a storm at full tidal flow. It isn't a nice picture in terms of navigation. For now the only thing i can think of outside of the subway is shuttle bus service from manhattan. Perhaps an expanded tram? There is enough space. There are not tons of options, but i think tram expansion, shuttle bus, and ferry are the most likely candidates. You could even paint the busses red so people don't get on thinking it's a regular route.

 

- A

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The tram has been out before, and they have not needed more service.

Now, someone mentioned growth on the island, but the tram will be back long before the new construction is finished. It probably won't be enough to need more train service.

There was, however, plans to have another entrance on the east side of southtown. I'm not sure what's going on with that.

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Hi,

I'm a master's student at in urban planning at columbia university and i'm in a studio exploring options for improving tranportation on Roosevelt Island. The tram will be shut down for 6 months starting in July and I was looking at exploring improvements in subway service for roosevelt islanders. Can people comment on the feasibility of running the R train through the 63rd street tunnel? That is, it would go

 

57-7th ave

63rd-Lexington

Roosevelt Island

Queensbridge-21st

36 St

 

It would connect back into its usual route at 36th on the Queens Blvd line. The F would run on its usual route. What do you think about this arrangement?

 

1. Is it feasible?

2. Do you think it's a good idea to have the R train run this route, regarding alleviating capacity at roosevelt island?

3. Would there be problems with this route because the Q trains need to turn around in the tracks past 57th st (could you run the Q to ditmars to solve this possible problem)

4. Are there switching issues near the 36th st station in queens under this arrangement?

 

Also other arrangements we're looking into

 

-flipping the F and the V lines so the V would go through 63rd and the F at 53rd

-Having a platform conductor posted at roosevelt island to help with capacity issues in the AM peak

 

also does anyone know if there enough trackage between 21st-queensbridge and 36 st in queens to have the Q terminate at 21st st and turn around in the area between 21st and 36th in queens?

 

Also, if anyone else any other ideas about improving service for people on roosevelt island, feel free to add to this thread. I look forward to hearing your comments.

 

I have to admit this... amongst the many threads about proposed service plans, your concept actually has something that many other ideas in the past lack: THINKING. I really respect this, as you actually thought it through. Your ideas are not the best, but the process in which you executed it is by far, one of the greatest.

Now:

-As what R160B 8713 pointed out, rerouting the R would sever an important transfer, this is true. As there are many riders transferring from the Lex to the R at 59th/Lex to get to Queens. It is possible to do that, however, it would require the R switching from local to express before 57th, meaning it would use the centre tracks at said station. If the Q is terminating on those tracks, it would mean that there would be a lot of interference in order to accomplish that, rendering it infeasible.

-Switching the F and the V is a good concept, except, there would be too many passengers transferring at 53rd/Lex. The existing platform at said station is already too crowded and during rush hours inadequate to handle overcrowding. There are two possible remedies:

*Bleecker Street Rehab: By finishing this project, F riders from Brooklyn can transfer to the 6 further downtown without having to reach uptown to make a transfer. This can alleviate some of the overcrowding anticipated at 53rd/Lex if such a switch is to be done.

*Adding a second platform or the Spanish Solution at Lex: Adding a second platform adjacent to one of the tracks would divert passenger flow and would make the existing platform more usable by making it less crowded. A further step could be adding a third platform, calling for a "Spanish Solution" where certain platforms are designated to be exit platforms and certain platforms to be boarding platforms. The Spanish Solution is very costly to implement.

-AFAIK, there are no pocket tracks in the 36th Street vicinity, the only feasible way to turn trains at 21st Street is to utilise the crossover just west of the said station. This would make it difficult as it will affect F service.

-The best short term solution is, to erect a pier on Roosevelt Island so that Islanders could travel to Manhattan in the shortest possible time via boat. I am sure NY Water Taxi would like to do something of the sort.

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(N) Express via Bridge to Astoria

(Q) Local via Tunnel to Astoria

(R) Express via 63rd Street and Bridge between Forest Hills and 95th Street (or even better yet, Coney Island via West End)

(W) One of two options: Either eliminate the train or have it run between Forest Hills and Whitehall Street via Broadway Local during the peak periods.

 

Benefits:

 

Astoria riders gets two trains (potentially) at all times.

Astoria riders gets 24/7 access to Whitehall Street (with one train)

Queens Blvd passengers gets faster service into the Broadway line

Roosevelt Island / Queensbridge customers get double the service

 

 

All Astoria trains run on the local tracks north of 34th Street, and the Forest Hills / Harlem trains run on the express tracks. You no longer have congestion at 57th Street, and no longer need to have trains terminate there. This also gives

 

(Ideally I would send the (D) to 95th Street and have it run via 4th Avenue Local, because it would give 95th Street Concourse Yards, and give all the Broadway trains access to Coney Island, and have the (R) run via West End to Coney Island)

 

Wouldn't work. There would be switching problems at 57th since the (Q) would have to switch to the local track to go to Astoria, interfering with (N) and (R) service. The (R) won't have a transfer to the Lex lines, which is needed since a lot of people get off and on there. The (Q) switching tracks at Lex would interfere with (F) service.

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I'd rather send the Q to continental on the qb local instead

The Q would continue at 57 st then go via the 63rd tunnel (lex,Roosevelt island,21queensbridge) then follow the r to continental

Forest Hills can't turn that many trains, just the (R) and (V).

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Could the R train rerouting be accomplished if the Q train were sent to Ditmars? That is, the R train could go through the 63rd street tunnel, and the Q and N would go through the 59th st tunnel up to ditmars. Wouldnt that solve the operational problem of the Q terminating at 57-7th ave?

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Could the R train rerouting be accomplished if the Q train were sent to Ditmars? That is, the R train could go through the 63rd street tunnel, and the Q and N would go through the 59th st tunnel up to ditmars. Wouldnt that solve the operational problem of the Q terminating at 57-7th ave?

 

Worse... you might cause congestion...

Besides you would sever that transfer from the Lex to the QBL.

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