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bigrene18

1985 - Remember? (Long Post)

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I obtained a 1985 subway map on EBay and received it today. I will not disclose the amount of money I paid.

 

It's amazing to look back at how service once was.

 

The scenario is Fall of 1985, when I was a measly 1 year old.

 

DO YOU REMEMBER THE FOLLOWING SERVICE BACK THEN? (As I translated it from the official map) Read carefully...

 

(A) train:

Rush Hours: 207 Street to Lefferts Blvd or Far Rockaway, express in Manhattan from 168 to Canal, express in Brooklyn from Hoyt to Euclid

Middays, Evenings, Weekends: 207 Street to Lefferts Blvd or Far Rockaway, express in Manhattan from 168 to Canal, LOCAL in Brooklyn

Nights: 207 Street to Lefferts Blvd: All stops

 

(:) train:

All Times except Nights: 57 Street/6 Av to Coney Island, local in Manhattan, express in Brooklyn from Pacific to 36 Street, skips DeKalb during rush hours:

Rush Hours (must be in addition to the service above): 168 Street to Coney Island, local in Manhattan north of 34 Street, express from 34 Street to W 4 Street, express in Brooklyn from Pacific to 36 Street, skips DeKalb.

Nights: Shuttle #1 from 57 Street/6 Av to 47/50 Sts; Shuttle #2 from 36 Street to Coney Island, all stops

 

(C) train:

Rush hours only: Bedford Park Blvd to Euclid Avenue OR Rockaway Park, all local stops

 

(D) train:

Weekdays, 6:30 AM - 8 PM: 205 Street to Brighton Beach, express in Bronx in peak direction, express in Manhattan from 145 Street to W 4 Street, express in Brooklyn from Prospect Park to Brighton Beach

All other times: 205 Street to Coney Island, local in Bronx, express in Manhattan from 145 Street to W 4 Street, local in Brooklyn

 

(E) train:

All times: 179 Street to World Trade Center, express in Queens from 71 Av to Queens Plaza, local in Manhattan

 

(F) train:

Rush Hours: 179 Street to Coney Island OR Kings Highway, express in Queens from 179 Street to Queens Plaza, local in Manhattan. In Brooklyn, trains to/from Kings Highway make all local stops, trains to/from Coney Island operate express from Kings Highway to 18 Avenue in peak direction.

Middays: 179 Street to Coney Island, express in Queens from 179 Street to Queens Plaza, local in Manhattan and Brooklyn

Evenings and Weekends: 179 Street to Coney Island, express in Queens from 71 Av to Queens Plaza, local in Manhattan and Brooklyn

Nights: 179 Street to Coney Island, all stops

 

(G) train:

All times except Nights: 71 Avenue to Smith/9th Streets, all stops

Nights: Queens Plaza to Smith/9th Streets, all stops

 

(H) train:

Rush Hours: NO SERVICE

Middays and Evenings: Euclid Avenue OR Broad Channel to Rockaway Park, all stops

Weekends: Broad Channel to Rockaway Park, all stops

Nights: Broad Channel to Rockaway Park, to Far Rockaway, and back to Euclid Avenue, all stops

 

(J) train:

Rush Hours: 121 Street to Broad Street, local in Queens, express in Brooklyn from Myrtle Av to Marcy Av in peak direction, local in Manhattan

All other times: 121 Street to Broad Street, all stops

 

(K) train:

Middays, Evenings and Weekends: 168 Street to World Trade Center, all stops

Rush Hours and Nights: NO SERVICE

 

(L) train:

All times: 8 Avenue to Rockaway Parkway, all stops

 

(M) train:

Weekdays 6 AM - 9 PM: Metropolitan Avenue to Coney Island via BRIGHTON line, all stops

All other times: Metropolitan Avenue to Myrtle Avenue, all stops

 

(N) train:

Weekdays 6 AM - 8 PM: 71 Avenue to Coney Island via Manhattan Bridge, local in Queens, express in Manhattan - uptown only AM, downtown only PM, express in Brooklyn from Pacific Street to 59 Street, skips DeKalb Avenue

Rush Hours (in addition to service above): 71 Avenue to Whitehall Street, all stops

Evenings and Weekends: 57 Street/7 Avenue to Coney Island via Manhattan Bridge, express in Manhattan both directions, express in Brooklyn from Pacific Street to 59 Street, STOPS at DeKalb Avenue

Nights: 36 Street to Coney Island, all stops

 

<Q> train:

Rush hours only: 57 Street/7 Avenue to Coney Island, express in Manhattan, local in Brooklyn

 

(R) train:

All times: Ditmars Blvd to 95 Street, all stops

Rush Hours <R>(in addition to service above): Chambers Street to 95 Street via Nassau Line, all stops. Operates peak direction only (To Chambers AM, from Chambers PM)

 

(S) trains:

42nd Street Shuttle - Times Square to Grand Central - All Times

Franklin Avenue Shuttle - Franklin Avenue to Prospect Park - All Times

 

(JFK) Express: 57 Street to JFK Airport. Operates via 6 Av express from 57 Street to W 4 Street; via the A line thereafter. Weekdays and Saturdays every 20 minutes, from 57 Street, approx 5 AM - 12 Mid, from JFK, approx 6 AM - 1 AM. Sundays every 24 minutes.

 

(1) train:

All times: 242 Street to South Ferry, all stops

 

(2) train:

All times; 241 Street to Flatbush Avenue, local in Bronx, express in Manhattan from 96 St to Chambers St, local in Brooklyn

 

(3) train:

All times except nights and Sunday AM: 148 Street to New Lots Avenue, express in Manhattan from 96 St to Chambers St, local in Brooklyn

Nights and Sunday AM: 148 Street to 135 Street shuttle

 

(4) train:

Rush hours: Woodlawn to Utica Avenue, local in Bronx but skips 138 Street in peak direction, express in Manhattan from 125 Street to Brooklyn Bridge, express in Brooklyn from Borough Hall to Utica Avenue

Middays: Woodlawn to Atlantic Avenue, local in Bronx, express in Manhattan from 125 Street to Brooklyn Bridge, all stops in Brooklyn

Evenings and Weekends except Sunday AM: Woodlawn to Utica Avenue, local in Bronx, express in Manhattan from 125 Street to Brooklyn Bridge, express in Brooklyn from Borough Hall to Utica Avenue

Nights and Sunday AM: Woodlawn to New Lots Avenue, local in Bronx, express in Manhattan from 125 Street to Brooklyn Bridge EXCEPT from 1 AM - 5 AM, all stops in Brooklyn

 

(5)<5> train:

Rush Hours: Dyre Avenue OR 241 Street to Flatbush Avenue, express in Bronx from E 180 Street to 149 Street, express in Manhattan from 125 Street to Brooklyn Bridge, express in Brooklyn from Borough Hall to Franklin Avenue

Middays: Dyre Avenue to Atlantic Avenue, local in Bronx, express in Manhattan from 125 Street to Brooklyn Bridge, all stops in Brooklyn

Evenings and Weekends: Dyre Avenue to Bowling Green, local in Bronx, express in Manhattan from 125 Street to Brooklyn Bridge

Nights: Dyre Avenue to East 180 Street, all stops

 

(6)<6> train:

Weekdays, 6:30 AM - 7 PM: Pelham Bay Park to Brooklyn Bridge, express in Bronx from East 177 Street to 3 Avenue in peak direction, otherwise local. Local in Manhattan.

Weekdays, 7 AM - 6:30 PM: East 177 Street to Brooklyn Bridge, all stops

Evenings, Weekends and Nights EXCEPT from 1 AM - 5 AM: Pelham Bay Park to Brooklyn Bridge, all stops

Nights from 1 AM - 5 AM: Pelham Bay Park to 125 Street, all stops

 

(7)<7> train:

All times: Main Street to Times Square, all stops

Rush Hours Only (in addition to service above): Main Street to Times Square, express from Main Street to Queensboro Plaza in peak direction, local from Queensboro Plaza to Times Square.

 

PHEW!

 

Any comments or comparisons to today's service?

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can you supply what cars were on these lines

 

On the B-Division there have been all kinds of variations and it's even more complicated. Assignments were generally not determined by type of equipment, but there WAS a concerted effort to keep the various types of cars together in one train consist. There are also far fewer maintenance bases than routes, resulting in a lot of fleet sharing. This practice probably continues unchanged, but again for an EXAMPLE, let's examine the car assignments for Fall of 1985:

 

(A) (207/Pitkin): R-38, R-44

(:)/(K) (Coney Island/174): R-40, R-42

<C> (Concourse/Pitkin/Rock Pk): R-10, R-38

(D) (Concourse/Coney Island/Brighton Bch): R-32, R-40M/42

(E) (Jamaica): R-32, R-46

(F) (Jamaica): R-46

(G) (Jamaica): R-10, R-32

(JFK) (Jamaica/Howard Bch): R-46

(J) (E NY): R-16, R-27/30, R-42

(L) (E NY, Rockaway Pkwy): R-27/30, R-42

(M)/<Q> (Coney Island/Metro Ave): R-27/30, R-42

(N) (Coney Island/Jamaica): R-32, R-46

(R) (36 St./Coney Island): R-27/30, R-32, R-42

(S) (Prospect Pk): R-27/30

 

A few ground rules:

 

R-27s and R-30s were mixed at random and indiscriminately, being arranged in "semi-permanent" pairs.

R-40Mod and R-42s were mixed in consists on the (D) line.

 

At this time the Car Appearance Program was in its beginning stages, so certain cars were in the process of being broken out of the general fleet to be "clean" while car cleaners were phased in at various terminals. As such, there were by this time several trains of "Green" R-10s running on the <C>, and there was some segmentation with the R-46s: cab cars 500-722 were being used on the (E). Also R-46s 1201-1246 (basically) were dedicated to the JFK Express (aka "The Bird").

 

The B-Division, at least since the Chrystie St. opening in 1967, has been rife with equipment swapping as well, so it has always been possible to find other lines' cars on any given route at any given time. Some exceptions in the Fall of 1985:

 

R-27/30s or R-40M mixed with 42s on the (B)/(K).

 

R-27/30s on the (D).

 

R-32s on the (J).

 

R-16s, R-40M/42 or R-32 on the (L).

 

R-32 or R-40M/42 on the (M)/<Q>.

 

R-27/30 on the (N).

 

 

 

The cars that were overhauled in the 1980's were not done all at once. It took 8 years to completely overhaul every car from the R30 to the R46.

 

The first overhauled cars that showed up were the R30 "redbirds" in 1985, on the (J). These replaced the R16's, which went to the (M). Most of the ®32/40/42 cars went through a mini-overhaul in 1987, which basically meant that the grafitti was removed and the broken components (lights/doors/signs) were fixed.

 

The first of what we see today as the totally overhauled (GOH) cars were the R38's on the (A), in 1987. I can still remember seeing a set of them pull into 42nd St. in the spring of 1987, and my utter shock at their almost new appearance (I fitst thought they "were" new cars). The GOH R40 slants first appeared on the (B) line in September 1987, the GOH R32's first appearing on the (R) in October of the same year. The GOH R42 first appeared on the (J) in March of 1988.

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awesome. I can imagine the shock u must have felt when u seen those cars roll up looking " new ". and wow bmt redbirds on the J...i can imagine seeing those on the elevated tracks on 85th st/forest parkway now. were the trains that were on the (J) from its start til now as follows?: R1-9,R16,R27/30,R42,R160?

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On the B-Division there have been all kinds of variations and it's even more complicated. Assignments were generally not determined by type of equipment, but there WAS a concerted effort to keep the various types of cars together in one train consist. There are also far fewer maintenance bases than routes, resulting in a lot of fleet sharing. This practice probably continues unchanged, but again for an EXAMPLE, let's examine the car assignments for Fall of 1985:

 

(A) (207/Pitkin): R-38, R-44

(:)/(K) (Coney Island/174): R-40, R-42

<C> (Concourse/Pitkin/Rock Pk): R-10, R-38

(D) (Concourse/Coney Island/Brighton Bch): R-32, R-40M/42

(E) (Jamaica): R-32, R-46

(F) (Jamaica): R-46

(G) (Jamaica): R-10, R-32

(JFK) (Jamaica/Howard Bch): R-46

(J) (E NY): R-16, R-27/30, R-42

(L) (E NY, Rockaway Pkwy): R-27/30, R-42

(M)/<Q> (Coney Island/Metro Ave): R-27/30, R-42

(N) (Coney Island/Jamaica): R-32, R-46

(R) (36 St./Coney Island): R-27/30, R-32, R-42

(S) (Prospect Pk): R-27/30

 

A few ground rules:

 

R-27s and R-30s were mixed at random and indiscriminately, being arranged in "semi-permanent" pairs.

R-40Mod and R-42s were mixed in consists on the (D) line.

 

At this time the Car Appearance Program was in its beginning stages, so certain cars were in the process of being broken out of the general fleet to be "clean" while car cleaners were phased in at various terminals. As such, there were by this time several trains of "Green" R-10s running on the <C>, and there was some segmentation with the R-46s: cab cars 500-722 were being used on the (E). Also R-46s 1201-1246 (basically) were dedicated to the JFK Express (aka "The Bird").

 

The B-Division, at least since the Chrystie St. opening in 1967, has been rife with equipment swapping as well, so it has always been possible to find other lines' cars on any given route at any given time. Some exceptions in the Fall of 1985:

 

R-27/30s or R-40M mixed with 42s on the (B)/(K).

 

R-27/30s on the (D).

 

R-32s on the (J).

 

R-16s, R-40M/42 or R-32 on the (L).

 

R-32 or R-40M/42 on the (M)/<Q>.

 

R-27/30 on the (N).

 

 

 

The cars that were overhauled in the 1980's were not done all at once. It took 8 years to completely overhaul every car from the R30 to the R46.

 

The first overhauled cars that showed up were the R30 "redbirds" in 1985, on the (J). These replaced the R16's, which went to the (M). Most of the ®32/40/42 cars went through a mini-overhaul in 1987, which basically meant that the grafitti was removed and the broken components (lights/doors/signs) were fixed.

 

The first of what we see today as the totally overhauled (GOH) cars were the R38's on the (A), in 1987. I can still remember seeing a set of them pull into 42nd St. in the spring of 1987, and my utter shock at their almost new appearance (I fitst thought they "were" new cars). The GOH R40 slants first appeared on the (B) line in September 1987, the GOH R32's first appearing on the (R) in October of the same year. The GOH R42 first appeared on the (J) in March of 1988.

 

 

Great and excellent job on explaining what exactly was going on in NYC subway regarding car fleet in mid-1980's just prior to the long term 20-year rebuliding of the Manhattan Bridge. I was a young teen in 1985 at age 12 years old that Septemeber.

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Great and excellent job on explaining what exactly was going on in NYC subway regarding car fleet in mid-1980's just prior to the long term 20-year rebuliding of the Manhattan Bridge. I was a young teen in 1985 at age 12 years old that Septemeber.

 

Thanks! :) I know my trains. lol

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We're mostly a lot better off today in terms of express service and transfers, not to mention equipment. Of course, some of our better express service has been severly hampered since September 11, but that's another story.

 

What's gotten better?

 

In 1985, Fulton express service was available only in rush hours. In December '88, it started running all day weekdays, with the existence of four tracks enabling expresses to run in both directions. Sometime in 1999, it expanded to all times except nights, putting it on level with Lexington and 7th Avenue (between the nighttime localization of the '2' and 9/11).

 

The Rockaways had only the round-robin service overnight, requiring a very circutuous trip and transfer at Euclid. In October '92, the Far Rockaway branch got full-time through service, while the much less used Lefferts branch got a nighttime shuttle.

 

In 1985, there was only one local service along CPW outside of rush hours, the 'K', previously 'AA'. In 12/88, the 'B', which had connected 6th Avenue and CPW peak only since 1940, began running all day weekdays. For a brief time earlier this year before the July switches, it was running on weekends as well.

 

In 1985, there was only one local service along QB on weekends and nights, the 'G'. Local stop passengers had to change at least once to get into Midtown or downtown, and more than that if headed uptown. In May 1987, the 'G' was cut back to Queens Plaza and the 'R' was switched from Astoria to serve as a full-time QB local (although overnight service ended in 10/90). This allowed easy transfer to both Manhattan IRT trunk routes, gave passengers from Rego Park and Elmhurst a one-seat ride into Manhattan, and relieved crowding at the Jackson Heights transfer to the '7'. Of course, the opening of the transfer at 51st-53rd/Lex in June 1989 made the 'R' between Manhattan and Queens somewhat less crucial, at least for transfer purposes.

 

Similarly, in 1985, those passengers trying to get the Forest Hills-bound 'N' from Manhattan on weekday evenings could never be sure just how late it was available. There were times one would be seen pulling into Lexington as late as 9:30, other times you'd see nothing but Astoria trains from 6:00 on. With the 5/87 switch, Astoria and QB locals

 

In 1985, the only subway service Jamaica had was two lines along Hillside Avenue. The only was to get to the LIRR station was to walk five blocks on Sutphin Boulevard from Hillside Avenue (where, during weekdays, only the 'E' stopped, while the 'F' ran express). Either that, or the free Q49 bus from the temporary 'J' terminal at 121st.

 

In 1985, the peak-hour Pelham and Flushing expresses only ran during rush hours. I'm not clear on dates, but during the nineties both lines started using the center express track inbound all morning and outbound all afternoon, with a misleading ad line about "all day express service" on those lines. Similarly, the Broadway/Jamaica line upgraded from rush hour to the same type of 'all day' peak hour service between Marcy and Myrtle when Archer opened.

 

In 1985, there was only one West End service all times, the 'B'. The mid-eighties Manny B construction, which mirrors today's, took the 'M' away from the Brighton to run down 4th Avenue as far as 9th Avenue middays and to Bay Parkway in rush hours. It continued to do this when the Manny B switched sides in 12/88- not so much because of popularity, but to eliminate an awkward crossover from Montague to Brighton trackage south of DeKalb.

 

In 1985, there was strictly local service rush hours on the outer Jamaica and upper Broadway lines, which got skip-stop service in 12/88 and 9/89(?) respectively. This made for extremely long commutes from Richmond Hill, Woodhaven, Cypress Hills, Inwood, Kingsbridge and Riverdale and as a result caused extreme congestion at transfer points to faster services at Broadway Junction and 168th.

 

In 1985, there was only one service along Lexington Avenue overnight, the '4'. The '6' was a shuttle from 125th to the Bronx. It was revived in Manhattan back in 1998(?), which left the Lex with two services at night, albeit both local.

 

In 1985, all IRT lines except the '4' still were running decrepit, graffitied equipment, some of which live on as overhauled Redbirds. The '1' and '3' in particular still ran mostly un-air conditioned, straight-seated R21s and 22s. Today both lines are entirely R62A. On Division B, everything older than R44s was in pretty rotten shape as well. A/C cars were very rare on the 'G' 'J', 'L', 'M' 'Q' 'R' and Franklin Shuttle. The 'G' was largely R10s and 32s with the rare R46; the others were largely 16s, 27/30s or 32s mixed with 42s, whose A/C seldom worked. The 'C' NEVER seemed to have it at all.

 

In 1985, not only was there no transfer at Lex/53, but the 8th Avenue lines were still disconnected from Times Square. The lack of transfers at both locations required a lot of changing, going out of your way, or paying another fare.

 

In 1985, Roosevelt Island had no subway service at all, just the tram or bus the wrong way to subway in Queens.

 

In 1985, most stations didn't have the detailed exit signs telling you what corner you were about to come out on or what buses were available. That could be very disorienting. The extremely helpful neighborhood maps were just starting to appear by token booths. As it happens, some still carry a 1985 copyright to this day!

 

What's gotten worse- at least from a railfan perspective?

 

In 1985, many more lines still had railfan windows. Today, some lack them completely, or require waiting for certain equipment at limited times. Upper Broadway and New Lots el are available only on a Livonia transplant; Pelham and Woodlawn only on a Redbird; Brighton, Broadway express and Manny B weekdays only on a Slant; West End rush hours only on a Mod 40/42; Crosstown only a very rare R32. Concourse, Franklin, Rock Park, outer Hillside, lower West End and lower Brighton don't have them at all. (At least we have regained them on

the 53rd/QB express corridor.)

 

In 1985 there was more variety of equipment overall, broken-down and graffitied as it might have been. The 'B', 'D', 'G', 'L', 'M' and 'R' generally ran at least three different models of varying vintage. The IRT was still an incredible crapshoot; a ten-car train could have an R17 through 36, and sometimes everything in between. Today only one model runs exclusively on the '1', '3', 'B', 'D', 'F' and shuttles. The '6', 'A' and 'N' have three, the others two.

 

In 1985, you were guaranteed two express services on Queens Boulevard on weekends, something like now. There's been all three services running local both ways partly or all the way from QP to FH; only one or two services available due to GO; one 'express' running local one way but not the other; an express becoming local at Roosevelt. An 'E' could be sitting on the local track at Roosevelt opposite another 'E' on the express track, with the dispatchers trying to figure out which wsas local or express, or would leave before the other. To paraphrase Alice Kramden (when describing her decripit apartment fixtures), when riding the QB lines on weekends, you never know WHAT to expect; it's an Adventureland!

 

It may be out of necessity, but it seemed much easier to navigate the system on weekends in 1985- you just had to look at the map. While GOs are needed in part to make up for the deferred maintenance of decades past, there are weekends when it seems like no line in the system is running normally. If an area is served by three lines, chances are good there's diversions on two of them, forcing everyone onto the third. Due to lack of coordination, you can enter Columbus Circle to find all downtown IRT service running express, and 'D' trains diverted down 8th Avenue on the same weekend.

 

Perversely, the improvements to the system and the fare incentives implemented over the nineties have left trains impossibly crowded all the time. In 1985, it was easy to get a seat or railfan window on weekends, and you generally didn't have hordes of tourists unwittingly blocking doorways to preventing you from entering OR exiting the train. There also seems to be a profusion of people with huge, space-hogging suitcases and those annoying rolling suitcases that can't be seen until you trip over one. But then, I shouldn't complain about excessive ridership from tourists. The city would be in the crapper without them, and in light of 9/11, their presence is ever more welcome.

 

Somehow I can't think of any other way we're worse off now than in 1985.

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bigrene you either have an incredible memory or have access to a plethora of transit info. After reading your refresher course, I vaguely remember many of the particulars you pointed out about the 1985 system. I entered Transit on May of 1985 and my G-Ma was still alive and living in Manhattan just north of Central Park. I became very familiar with that (K) train and became an even bigger 'system fan' now that I had a free pass!

 

I personally want to thank you for your knowledgable posts, crammed with so much info that I'm going to copy/paste/notepad them and look upon them in the future with treasured memories right on the tops of my frontal lobes! :)

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I remember 1985, in fact my transit days go back into the 1970's. OK I am an old timer.

 

Double letter lines: CC now the (C), GG now the (G) LL now the (L) QB now the (Q), RR now the (R) and SS now the (S)

 

The old lines. (9)(K)(JFK)(H) AA, EE lines. I remember the (K) line running from Broadway Junction via the (J) line, connecting to the 6th Avenue line and terminating at 57 Street with the (;).

 

I still have a lot of maps from the late 1980's to the early 1990's. But I still kept my 1974, 1977 and 1978 classic maps in mint condition. I only have a few of these classics.

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Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPod; U; CPU like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/420.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0 Mobile/4A102 Safari/419.3)

 

bigrene, YOU'RE INCREDIBLE!

 

Haha, Thanks! :P

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awesome. I can imagine the shock u must have felt when u seen those cars roll up looking " new ". and wow bmt redbirds on the J...i can imagine seeing those on the elevated tracks on 85th st/forest parkway now. were the trains that were on the (J) from its start til now as follows?: R1-9,R16,R27/30,R42,R160?

 

if i recall, the (J) also used R40Ms (but not R40 slants) with the R42s until around 1999 or 2000 and based on many old photos i saw, they looked a lot better back then than they are now.

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Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPod; U; CPU like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/420.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0 Mobile/4A102 Safari/419.3)

 

if i recall, the (J) also used R40Ms (but not R40 slants) with the R42s until around 1999 or 2000 and based on many old photos i saw, they looked a lot better back then than they are now.

 

Yeah, that's true! I did not think about that! Thanks, man! :P

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