Economy Discussion Thread

[MTR Admiralty]

I think it would be best if we have a thread dedicated to the global/US economy.

 

Here are my thoughts on the AIG bailout money:

The company is using it all wrong, it should not give bonuses to its employees. They shouldn't give back the money too, however they should spend it more efficiently. How about hiring more people? Look at the financial crisis. The hardest hit now are the finance sector of the population. It is true that other portions of the population are affected, however these guys are affected more. Since they are affected, why can't AIG hire them? That will allow AIG to develop since it has a stronger workforce.

[Shortline Bus]

Well one person who refuses to take the blame is former VP Cheney. He gave his first interview yesterday since leaving office.

 

 

Back to the poltical aspects of this crisis. Former VP Dick Cheney in his first major intervew since ending his term & leaving the post in January said alot and blamed the Democratics for the economic meltdown. Here story.

 

Ex-V.P. Dick Cheney: Don't blame Bush administration for economic mess; Obama making U.S. less safe

BY Michael Mcauliff

DAILY NEWS WASHINGTON BUREAU

Sunday, March 15th 2009

 

Former U.S. Vice President Dick Cheney spoke on CNN Sunday in 1st Interview since leaving office.

 

 

WASHINGTON - Former Vice President Dick Cheney says don't blame George Bush for leaving President Barack Obama with an economic catastrophe.

 

It was everyone else, and the Democrats, who brought on disaster, said Cheney, who was arguably the most influential VP's and advisers over his eight years in US History. Cheney lead the country from "9/11', the "war in Iraq, the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, and the start of the Ecomonic Crisis.

 

"There's no question that what the economic circumstances that President Obama inherited are difficult ones," Cheney said on CNN's Host John King on the show "State of the Union" this morning. "I don't think you can blame the Bush administration for the creation of those circumstances."

 

Instead, Cheney suggested the current problems stem for the worsening world economy and "Liberal' Democratics obstruction of Bush's attempts at reforming the government-backed mortgage giants, Fannie Mae and Freddie.

 

"This isn't something that happened just in the Bush administration or just in the United States," Cheney said. "We are in the midst of a worldwide economic period of considerable difficulty here.

 

"It's important to understand that. It doesn't do just to go back and say, well, 'George Bush was president and that is why everything is screwed up,' because that is simply not true," Cheney said.

 

He insisted that his White House wanted to act on the mortgage front in the U.S at least a year before the Global meltdown started in September 2008.

 

"We had, in fact, tried to deal with the Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac problem some years before with major reforms and were blocked by Democrats on the Hill, Rep. Barney Frank and Sen. Chris Dodd," Cheney said.

 

"The Democrats absolutely opposed any effort to reform those two institutions, and I think the collapse of those two institutions, as much as anything, contributed to the financial difficulties we've been living with since," he added.

 

But he also suggested there's not much point playing the blame game now that he is out of office.

 

"I think the notion that you can just sort of throw it off on the prior administration, that's interesting rhetoric but I don't think anybody really cares a lot about that," Cheney said.

 

Many analysts point to all the bad loans that Fannie and Freddie backed as the start of the collapse. But many also blame Republicans in Congress for relaxing regulations that allowed most of the financial world to jump into the mortgage market.

 

Cheney stated his continued belief in little or no government regulations in the stock markets and put much of the blame on the crisis on 'crooked CEO's and investors.'

 

Dodd and Frank could not immediately be reached to respond.

 

c)2009 NY Daily News, Inc.

 

 

 

any reactions?

[MTR Admiralty]

You can't really blame a particular individual or administration on the economy. The paramount reason why our economy has not recovered is simply FEAR. Technically, the recession should not have lasted that long. There might have been some light at the end of the tunnel. However what the governments are doing now is spreading fear to the masses. The government is simply too pessimistic to believe that the economy will improve and has repeatedly mentioned that the economy will get worse before it gets better. I think we all know that. This only spreads fear. When there is fear, consumers will not buy. And when consumers do not buy, demand gets limited which in turns brings down the production which hinders the progress of the companies. And the companies will suffer from these losses. And how are they coping with it? Laying off people, which makes things even worse.

 

I believe that it is best that all governments remain optimistic on the issue. Divert the fear, convince the people that we will pull out of this mess as soon as possible.

[RokuSix]

I think we shouldn't blame people...we need to focus on solving it. All we really need to do is see the mistakes of the past, and learn from them.

[UlmerPark B6]

You can't really blame a particular individual or administration on the economy. The paramount reason why our economy has not recovered is simply FEAR. Technically, the recession should not have lasted that long. There might have been some light at the end of the tunnel. However what the governments are doing now is spreading fear to the masses. The government is simply too pessimistic to believe that the economy will improve and has repeatedly mentioned that the economy will get worse before it gets better. I think we all know that. This only spreads fear. When there is fear, consumers will not buy. And when consumers do not buy, demand gets limited which in turns brings down the production which hinders the progress of the companies. And the companies will suffer from these losses. And how are they coping with it? Laying off people, which makes things even worse.

 

I believe that it is best that all governments remain optimistic on the issue. Divert the fear, convince the people that we will pull out of this mess as soon as possible.

 

True, Americans have to stop worrying about losing their job and pinching every penny they have, which causes a bigget letdown in the economy. Just cause you're bailing out companies, doesn't mean they will still do well down the stretch.

[MTR Admiralty]

I think we shouldn't blame people...we need to focus on solving it. All we really need to do is see the mistakes of the past, and learn from them.

I think Obama should pay more attention to FDR. I know his programmes are trying to reflect the New Deal made by FDR, however, he should also look at how he roused up the masses and brought in hope.

True, Americans have to stop worrying about losing their job and pinching every penny they have, which causes a bigget letdown in the economy. Just cause you're bailing out companies, doesn't mean they will still do well down the stretch.

About the bank bailouts, the government has been injecting billion after billion into the banks. The purpose is to allow the banks give out loans for people to invest. However, because of the credit worries and all of that trouble, the banks are worried to allow prospective investors to borrow from them. If the banks are not giving the money out, the money becomes collected into a dead pool of water. People need the money to invest (smartly). People need the money to buy. Buying and investing is the cure for the economy. Not bailouts.

[MTR Admiralty]

Surprise jump in housing starts ignites Wall St. rally

NEW YORK (Reuters) - Stocks surged on Tuesday as an unexpected leap in housing starts pushed Home Depot and other retailers higher while bullish comments from a broker on Cisco Systems helped technology shares rebound.

 

A nearly 4 percent rise in U.S. crude oil futures boosted energy shares. Chevron (NYSE:CVX - News) shares rose 3.8 percent to $65.31 and ranked as the Dow's top gainer.

 

Retailer Home Depot's (NYSE:HD - News) stock was another top Dow advancer, rising 6.7 percent to $21.48, after data showed housing starts rose 22.2 percent in February and a brokerage raised its view on several retailers, citing an improved outlook for the economy.

 

The Nasdaq reversed a 1.9 percent slide on Monday after Goldman said investors should buy Cisco Systems (NasdaqGS:CSCO - News) on the view a new server will increase the company's profits. The stock rose 4.5 percent to $16.14.

 

"Investors are starting to get a sense that things are stabilizing. They're not getting any worse," said Terry Morris, a portfolio manager with National Penn Investors Trust Company in Reading, Pennsylvania.

 

The Dow Jones industrial average (DJI:^DJI - News) gained 178.73 points, or 2.48 percent, to 7,395.70. The Standard & Poor's 500 Index (^SPX - News) rose 24.23 points, or 3.21 percent, to 778.12. The Nasdaq Composite Index (Nasdaq:^IXIC - News) jumped 58.09 points, or 4.14 percent, to 1,462.11.

 

DOW UP ALMOST 5 PCT FOR MARCH

 

The blue-chip Dow average is now up 4.7 percent for the month but remains down 15.7 percent for the year to date.

 

The S&P 500 is now up 14 percent from the bear-market closing low on March 9, while the Dow is up 13 percent from its bear-market closing low reached on the same date.

 

The Dow Jones home construction index (DJI:^DJUSHB - News) rose 6.3 percent after data showed housing starts jumped 22.2 percent in February, the biggest percentage rise since January 1990, and also the first increase since last April.

 

Among home builders' stocks, top boosts included Pulte Homes (NYSE:PHM - News), up 6.7 percent at $10.16, and Toll Brothers (NYSE:TOL - News), up 5.9 percent at $17.06.

 

Optimism about the banking sector has helped the market rebound from 12-year lows hit earlier this month. JPMorgan Chase & Co(NYSE:JPM - News) shares rose 8.9 percent to $25.14. An S&P financial sector index (^GSPF - News) climbed 6.6 percent.

 

Even though the Obama administration has yet to detail how toxic assets will be taken off balance sheets, optimism about banks has risen in recent days as executives talked of a strong start to 2009.

 

The S&P Retail index (Chicago Options:^RLX - News) rose 5.4 percent.

 

Alcoa (NYSE:AA - News) was the top drag on the Dow, falling 8.7 percent to $5.59 after it said it will slash its dividend, issue stock and convertible notes worth $1.1 billion, and trim its 2010 spending.

 

Trading was moderate on the New York Stock Exchange, with about 1.49 billion shares changing hands, matching last year's estimated daily average, while on Nasdaq, about 2.12 billion shares traded, below last year's daily average of 2.28 billion..

 

Advancing stocks outnumbered declining ones on the NYSE by a ratio of about 4 to 1, while on the Nasdaq, about seven stocks rose for every two that fell.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Surprise-jump-in-housing-rb-14669354.html

 

Given the recent rallies at Wall Street, Obama should shed more hope onto the public. Hope, not fear, is the solution to our woes. If we continue on the rallies, we could be out of recession soon.

[Shortline Bus]

Off topic but related for moment. Guys i strongly suggest listening to this classic 1970's hit "for love of money' by the O jay's.

 

For those who dont know the song its also used as the opening recently to both GTA (grand theft auto) video games series & also the NBC TV hit reality show

" The Apprentice" starring Donald Trump.

 

That a great song with a great message even today.

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrxkDVRCjwg

 

then hit 'for love of money' song. Any reactions?

[MTR Admiralty]

Off topic but related for moment. Guys i strongly suggest listening to this classic 1970's hit "for love of money' by the O jay's.

 

For those who dont know the song its also used as the opening recently to both GTA (grand theft auto) video games series & also the NBC TV hit reality show

" The Apprentice" starring Donald Trump.

 

That a great song with a great message even today.

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrxkDVRCjwg

 

then hit 'for love of money' song. Any reactions?

 

Interesting... but let's get back on topic... I want to hear everyone's voice on the economy

[Shortline Bus]

Interesting... but let's get back on topic... I want to hear everyone's voice on the economy

 

mTR it kind of related to the topic if you listen to the song carefully. I get impression you dont like US pop/R&B music. It first came out in 1973 during the start of last major global recession.

[MTR Admiralty]

mTR it kind of related to the topicif you listen to the song carefully. I get impression you dontlike US pop/R&B music.

 

Okay... now this comment is really off topic.

I want to see a thread dedicated to this particular thread, not any other stuff.

 

In case if you don't know, there will be an organised protest at Wall Street on the 4th of April. The march will begin at Union Square and will continue to Wall Street. This demonstration is to protest bailouts...

Now what are your views of this demonstration?

[Shortline Bus]

Okay... now this comment is really off topic.

I want to see a thread dedicated to this particular thread, not any other stuff.

 

In case if you don't know, there will be an organised protest at Wall Street on the 4th of April. The march will begin at Union Square and will continue to Wall Street. This demonstration is to protest bailouts...

Now what are your views of this demonstration?

 

 

Not another of these save the world protests lol. If you want change at election time vote for progressive canadiates instead of the machine ones of both parties. That when the change begin.

 

MTR you sound like a liberal progressive in high school. I admire you for it. However as advice politics and this ecomony requires a game plan. while i am a confident person i also am a realistic too poltically.

 

Protests help but the only 'real change' begins when you most of the American people on board and not just the college crowd in NYC Boston or San Fransiciso. And voting out of office these elected officals 'buddies' with crooked Wall St CEOS.:tdown:

 

The reason why the radical movement of the 1960'/70's that opposed Vietnam with tons of protests and promoted social justice etc, for instance failed is the fact many of those then young 'baby boomers' did not vote in elections.

[MTR Admiralty]

Actually, I am against it myself. The reason being is, my colleagues have no idea what they are protesting against.

[Shortline Bus]

Actually, I am against it myself. The reason being is, my colleagues have no idea what they are protesting against.

 

Sounds like its nothing more than getting on 'tv news' for selfffish and publicity reasons itself. A waste of time. Better off just doing that in Union Square or something. If you feel strongly that this protest against crooked CEOS of forunate 500 companies like AIG and taxpayer 'corporate welfare' is just a 'photo op' like the Rev Al Sharpton demostartions are(another topic)then dont go. However it up to you MTR.

 

During the 1960's however the protests in most cases were 'legit. My father was at the Martin Luther King 'i have a dream speech' in 1963. There nothing wrong with ' peaceful protests' this is America.

 

I am saying if you want to have protests along with being taken seriously both by the media and the public you need to be really deidcated and believe in the cause you fighting against. That why the majority of Baby Boomers who spoke out aganst the Vietnam War and also for more Civil Rights did bring some reforms to this country for instance.

 

 

And go more than protests, i mean vote for canadiates for public office who want to end the friendship between the US government and crooked CEO's.

 

Hope you understand MTR.

[MTR Admiralty]

The thing is, my colleagues don't understand the situation we are in right now. It changes. Look, recently we had a rally. The next thing is, you hear about AMEX's report, so it all changes. AIG should not have used the money for bonuses. It should have done something else. It should have hired more people in the least.

What can my colleagues do? Can they save our economy? Absolutely not. There are many factors that brought us into this recession, and most of them don't even know what they are. Yes, it's great to exercise your freedom of speech, however, use it when you understand what you are going to say.

 

Oh by the way, Hudson. I am not a zealous liberal. I'm not left-winged.

[metsfan]

April 4 is a saturday, why wouldn't they do it on a weekday? More effective.

 

- A

[Shortline Bus]

April 4 is a saturday, why wouldn't they do it on a weekday? More effective.

 

- A

 

 

Thank You.See my point. That why i am 'skeptical'of this so called rally against the greed of wall st/bailout. I think it's more a party/social gathering so the young adults can be seen 'cool' on the TV news like Ny1news etc.

[SubwayGuy]

People should be protesting the GREED of american corporations, not the bailout and government.

 

government is far from perfect, and deregulation allowed this to happen, but the cause and root of all the economy's problem has been and continues to be the greedy bastards wearing suits leading the corporations that would sell their children into slavery for a few million bucks.

 

nothing matters to these people except money. the beauty of a dictatorship is you could point a gun at all of them, demand the money back for nothing, and poof the national deficit is gone and the pricks that put us in this bind are held accountable and forced into a poverty they rightly deserve because they profited at our expense.

 

unfortunately, that ain't legal so there's got to be some other way to do it, it's just going to take time. the problem is the COMPANIES you want to bail out, but the suits running them you want to hang from the empire state building and throw rocks at. sure, fire the execs, right? well its not that easy, because in line to replace the greedy pricks are...wait for it...more greedy pricks! few make it that high in a corporation without being motivated by greed and money. how the govt tows the line between helping companies that need the $ and holding the d-bags running them accountable will affect how quickly the government recovers.

 

the deficit wont be the problem everyone in the media wants you to think. it means virtually nothing, it's mostly accounting. doesn't mean you should rack it up, but we can live with a 2 trillion dollar deficit the same way we can with a 1 trillion deficit because until they say YOUR taxes are going up (and they're not unless you make a hell of a lot more than i do), you're not being asked to foot ANY of this

[Shortline Bus]

People should be protesting the GREED of american corporations, not the bailout and government.

 

government is far from perfect, and deregulation allowed this to happen, but the cause and root of all the economy's problem has been and continues to be the greedy bastards wearing suits leading the corporations that would sell their children into slavery for a few million bucks.

 

nothing matters to these people except money. the beauty of a dictatorship is you could point a gun at all of them, demand the money back for nothing, and poof the national deficit is gone and the pricks that put us in this bind are held accountable and forced into a poverty they rightly deserve because they profited at our expense.

 

unfortunately, that ain't legal so there's got to be some other way to do it, it's just going to take time. the problem is the COMPANIES you want to bail out, but the suits running them you want to hang from the empire state building and throw rocks at. sure, fire the execs, right? well its not that easy, because in line to replace the greedy pricks are...wait for it...more greedy pricks! few make it that high in a corporation without being motivated by greed and money. how the govt tows the line between helping companies that need the $ and holding the d-bags running them accountable will affect how quickly the government recovers.

 

the deficit wont be the problem everyone in the media wants you to think. it means virtually nothing, it's mostly accounting. doesn't mean you should rack it up, but we can live with a 2 trillion dollar deficit the same way we can with a 1 trillion deficit because until they say YOUR taxes are going up (and they're not unless you make a hell of a lot more than i do), you're not being asked to foot ANY of this

 

 

Well said Subway Guy. I wish MTR classmates and friends before they look like idiots on TV news with their so called 'protests' read this before they go on further. We live in era with the avaerage American being so silent (not counting the politically active 'young adult' of college age)and not reacting.

 

In era when my father was a young adult in the 1960's issues like Vietnam and Civil Rights would lead to crowds reguarly of 50,000 or more 'protesting' in Times Sq.

[metsfan]

I think a more effective way of protesting would be to ask a company's white paper and 10k before doing business with them. Also ... holy *** i just realized mcdonald's arches being used as bullets to divide news on the zipper on NBC...... Watching right now.

 

They need to fix that, highly socially irresponsible.

 

Also how about organizing a rally protest blocking AIG headquarter? To be clear, their insurance biz is fine, its the rest that is horribly sick. Force the sale of all banking operations, every desk every pencil everything.

 

- A

[MTR Admiralty]

April 4 is a saturday, why wouldn't they do it on a weekday? More effective.

 

- A

 

I meant the 3rd.

[MTR Admiralty]

People should be protesting the GREED of american corporations, not the bailout and government.

 

government is far from perfect, and deregulation allowed this to happen, but the cause and root of all the economy's problem has been and continues to be the greedy bastards wearing suits leading the corporations that would sell their children into slavery for a few million bucks.

 

nothing matters to these people except money. the beauty of a dictatorship is you could point a gun at all of them, demand the money back for nothing, and poof the national deficit is gone and the pricks that put us in this bind are held accountable and forced into a poverty they rightly deserve because they profited at our expense.

 

unfortunately, that ain't legal so there's got to be some other way to do it, it's just going to take time. the problem is the COMPANIES you want to bail out, but the suits running them you want to hang from the empire state building and throw rocks at. sure, fire the execs, right? well its not that easy, because in line to replace the greedy pricks are...wait for it...more greedy pricks! few make it that high in a corporation without being motivated by greed and money. how the govt tows the line between helping companies that need the $ and holding the d-bags running them accountable will affect how quickly the government recovers.

 

the deficit wont be the problem everyone in the media wants you to think. it means virtually nothing, it's mostly accounting. doesn't mean you should rack it up, but we can live with a 2 trillion dollar deficit the same way we can with a 1 trillion deficit because until they say YOUR taxes are going up (and they're not unless you make a hell of a lot more than i do), you're not being asked to foot ANY of this

Exactly. It's just greed.

That's why people have to know what they should really protest about before they actually step into the streets and protest.

Well said Subway Guy. I wish MTR classmates and friends before they look like idiots on TV news with their so called 'protests' read this before they go on further. We live in era with the avaerage American being so silent (not counting the politically active 'young adult' of college age)and not reacting.

 

In era when my father was a young adult in the 1960's issues like Vietnam and Civil Rights would lead to crowds reguarly of 50,000 or more 'protesting' in Times Sq.

Hudson, FOR THE LAST TIME. I am AGAINST THIS RALLY. Do I have to make myself clear? I know that you know that I am young, but why do you perceive me as an ignorant individual? Why do your relate me to my colleagues?

My perceptions of the economy are not as naive as theirs. They see bailouts are wrong, that the government should "bail the people out". I believe that the government should only give to those companies that are really suffering under this economy. If the companies fail, then it would cause more economic turmoil. We are undergoing hard times.

Companies, themselves, should know how to use the bailout money wisely.

 

By the way... here's a question:

Which is better option?

-To lay off people, in order to save money

-To cut everyone's wages temporarily, in order to save money

[SubwayGuy]

I think a more effective way of protesting would be to ask a company's white paper and 10k before doing business with them. Also ... holy *** i just realized mcdonald's arches being used as bullets to divide news on the zipper on NBC...... Watching right now.

 

They need to fix that, highly socially irresponsible.

 

Also how about organizing a rally protest blocking AIG headquarter? To be clear, their insurance biz is fine, its the rest that is horribly sick. Force the sale of all banking operations, every desk every pencil everything.

 

- A

 

Trust me when I say this, those "statements" you are looking at do not always mean what you think they do, and they're not always as accurate as you think they are. Just think, when you are in school, even the best and brightest get things wrong. Let's say it's a great school and the class average is an 88. Then these people graduate (the "best and brightest") and wind up keeping corporate records. You don't think they're still going to get an "88 in life"? I'm not saying anything in particular either way, but there are a LOT of book keeping mistakes made out there, and there are a lot of grey areas where you can "bend the rules" - legally - to make things look better. Looking at a 10K won't tell you much really, in a lot of cases it can be used both as support for AND against buying stock in a company.

 

And part of the reason these banking/finance transactions have gone so bad is that NO ONE understands this stuff. Including people that work for the companies dealing them! Somewhere, some of the traders and a few senior VP's know what's up, but the rest of the people dealing in these things have little to no idea, or partial information - and some of THOSE people are making decisions!

 

Financial services "products" have to be viewed as what they are. Artificial, intangible, "on paper" ways meant to create wealth that only work when certain conditions are met and fail miserably when those conditions are not met. The average person has no business getting involved in any of that stuff because if it backfires YOU will be the one left holding the bag. Supply and demand, they can offer it, we don't have to buy it...